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Florida Governor Jeb Bush Reacts to Death of Terri Schiavo
Aired March 31, 2005 - 13:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Florida Governor Jeb Bush was right at the center of this controversy for quite some time. Today he was quoted as saying, he wishes he could have done more to help Terri Schiavo. He was called upon by Terri Schiavo's parents, the Schindlers, many times to do whatever he could within his powers in order to save Terri's life. He did everything within his power, but it was not enough.
Let's listen to some of his responses earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) not allowing the Schindlers to be with Terri as she died. Do you have any sort of comment on that situation?
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I think now is the time really pay tribute to Terri Schiavo, and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted, and there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this, for you know, a lot of different things to be discussed, but I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
BLITZER: Is there legislation going forward on this issue?
BUSH: I don't know. I've talked to Senator Webster just about every day, and we're both committed to looking at legislation, whether it will be done this year or not, I don't know. I think there's a lot of raw emotion still, and it may be appropriate to wait and to thoughtfully go about this. But we're going to look at our laws compared to other states, and I'm going to propose changes if it's appropriate, so that we can deal with the conflict and the guardianship issue, which I believe is what president Lee was probably talking about.
It is disheartening that basic questions like a funeral can't be decided upon, and then we have the end-of-life issues, clearer definitions perhaps of what persistent vegetative state is, and what should be done as it relates to the removal of hydration and food, basic elements of life. And then how do we create incentives to have written directives, which is really the answer to this, is that we don't count on government to be the arbiter or count on courts to do that, that this is really our responsibility for the people that we love, to work with them and to talk about this and to deal with it way in advance of it happening.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) you just said talk in advance.
BUSH: I think what we ought to be doing is creating policy based on the broadest possible implications rather than responding. We attempted to do that, successfully in the sense that Terri Schiavo's life was saved for a little more than a year, and it was attempted again this year related to her case, and I encourage that, and I'm appreciative of Senator Webster and the leadership of the house, Representative Backsly (ph), for doing the good work to respond to her challenge, but now is the time to look at this from the broader perspective. The answer to whether or not a moral directive is appropriate is how many people have written directives, and how can we incent that before we can answer whether that should be restricted in some ways?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: That's Governor Jeb Bush, just a little while ago, offering no small series of hints that this is not the end of this matter in the broadest sense, and that he will encourage, at least the Florida legislature, to consider at least the possibility of changing legislation to make it clear that absent a written living will, the default would be to allow those artificial means to sustain one's life. We'll keep you posted as that part of the story continues to unfold over the months and years.
Back with more in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM.
We're getting new information on the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo. Susan Candiotti is standing by down there in Pinellas Park, Florida with the very latest on that.
Susan, what have you learned about this procedure and what they're looking for?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, first of all, this was issued a press release that we received from they. And they wanted to make clear first of all that under Florida law, they're authorized to conduct an autopsy on anyone they want to, really independent or even without permission of the legally authorized next of kin, although of course in this case we know that Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, wanted an autopsy to take place. They're telling us that they'll be conducting routine procedure during the course of this autopsy, that will be supplemented by, as they call it, post-mortem radiographs. Our understanding is this is standard operating procedure. It will include photographs being taken of Mrs. Schiavo, as well as X-rays of various body parts, looking for, for example, for broken bones, and that kind of thing.
It will also include a neuropathology examination, which means in laymen's terms, it will be examining her brain. This is one of the things they've been talking about for several days now, that through Michael Schiavo, he wanted to make sure that that took place so that any question would be eliminated about the extent of her brain damage. Now, according to Florida law, this autopsy, once it completed -- and it may take, they said, several weeks -- but once it is complete, the report will be made public and we'll be notified when it's ready -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thanks very much, Susan.
Very quickly, have you heard any opposition from Terri Schiavo's parents on this autopsy and whether they're going to take any action too stop it?
CANDIOTTI: We have not heard any of that, and it will be conducted by the chief medical inspector, who is very well-respected in this area, here in Pinellas County. And at 3:30 this afternoon, we will hear from a spokesman for the medical examiner. He will make a brief statement, we are told. He is the director of forensic investigation, so perhaps we'll be able to learn more at that time.
LIN: Good enough. Thanks very much, Susan. We'll hear more at 3:30 this afternoon, Eastern Time.
In the meantime, there are more questions actually than answers about the autopsy and exactly why they would be conducting it. So let's turn to Sanjay Gupta here, our chief medical correspondent. Sanjay, why are they conducting this autopsy? I mean, it seems to me the consensus is that she was in a persistent vegetative state and that contributed to her demise.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, there's not consensus on that persistent vegetative state, which is sort of remarkable still at this stage, but again, you know, thee five neurologists, three said she was, two said she wasn't. To answer your question directly, the reason that she's getting an autopsy is because her next-of-kin requested it.
And there are really three reasons that someone gets an autopsy. One is in the case of an unexpected death, like someone who has a death right after an operation, for example. Two is the question of a criminal death, a homicide, that sort of thing. Or three is a family request. Not all family requests are honored, but in this case, they decided to try and put this issue about persistent vegetative state to the test a little bit with an autopsy.
LIN: What are they going to see and learn from it, then?
GUPTA: That's a good question, because a lot of people are expecting that they're going to have an answer, there's going to be an absolute answer as to whether or not she was in a persistent vegetative state, and that's probably not going to happen. They may be a little disappointed there.
There is going to be a lot of knowledge gained from an autopsy, an exponential amount of knowledge, in terms of the status of her brain, which parts were affected, which parts of her brain had been affected 15 years ago and where cells died, what her function would have been. But that question, that lingering question, as to whether or not she was in a persistent vegetative state, really cannot be answered by an autopsy. It's just more information still.
LIN: I would think that just the physical nature of the brain itself would answer those questions.
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, again, and I have some pictures here, which might actually, you know, tell the story a little bit better. Take a look at the brain on the left there. That's a healthy brain. And the brain on the right is from a patient who is known to have persistent vegetative state.
And I think even a layperson can tell significant differences between those two brains. The brain on the right, significant loss of tissue. But that critical step, Carol, again, taking that step to say that -- this brain, for sure, when looking at Mrs. Schiavo's brain, is a brain of a persistent vegetative state, is really not possible, because PVS, as we know it, is a clinical diagnosis. You really have to look at the patient. And they didn't agree on that.
LIN: Why are they looking for broken bones?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I think -- they do these post-mortem radiographs, that's standard procedure. I'm not sure they're looking for broken bones. They just check for anything, any metal in the body. That's standard. They also take photographs. They want to document the exact condition of the body at the time of death. That's pretty standard with a post-mortem examination.
LIN: Sanjay, there's been a lot of characterization by politicians and religious fundamentalists who are personally involved in this case that her death was barbaric. That's what one of the phrases that was used. The actual moment of death, what was that like? Was it peaceful or was it, in some way, inhumane?
GUPTA: Well, the answer -- the right answer is nobody really knows, because Terri Schiavo obviously could not tell us. But there have been a lot of studies done on people in terminal stages of life who have not been fed or have not received anything to drink for some time. Terminal cancer, for example.
And those studies have been done, trying to figure out, is it starvation or is it hunger? And is there pain involved? And a lot of end-of-life specialists have weighed in on this, weighed in on the studies and said, it's not pain so much. Some even describe it as a sense of euphoria at that time. We don't know. Terri Schiavo can't tell us.
LIN: How would they know euphoria?
GUPTA: Well, they -- again, patients who are able to communicate, who, you know, were not in a persistent vegetative state but had terminal cancer, for example, but were not eating or drinking in the last couple weeks of their life. They described what they were feeling to their doctors and to people who were studying them. It's a difficult question.
I will tell you, in a hospice-type situation, the situation Mrs. Schiavo was in, they're really good at this. This is what they do, in terms of caring for patients, making sure that they're not in any kind of discomfort at the time. They talked about the pain medications, even. Why were they given if she doesn't have any awareness? Well, they're given because they're not going to hurt her, they might help her, so why not give them? And that's the type of thinking that goes into it.
LIN: Right. And certainly a comfort, usually, for the family.
GUPTA: That's right. Exactly.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Sanjay. We are going to be exploring this whole issue of the moment of death and also some reactions to Terri Schiavo's death at 9:05 today. I'm going to be talking to Father Tom Hartman -- you know him as half of the famous God Squad -- about this. And also about some controversial remarks that are coming out of the Vatican. A cardinal with some pretty heated words about what Terri Schiavo's death was and what it will mean.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Well, the Terri Schiavo case raised profound questions about life and death. Where exactly is the line and who, if anyone, is qualified to make the call in such wrenching situations? And how do people of faith live with an outcome they may not have prayed for?
Well, I want to ask some of those questions to someone who's been called to answer these kinds of questions, frankly, everyday. Monsignor Tom Hartman, a Catholic priest and part of the God Squad, joins me from Babylon, New York.
Monsignor, you have been touched personally in this experience. You have witnessed how many deaths in your parish?
MSGR. TOM HARTMAN, CATHOLIC PRIEST: Well, I've witnessed about 4,000 deaths, but 1,000 of the people, when I was staying with them, would tell me about near-death experiences, the experience of being lifted out of their body and going to the next world.
I remember, for example, one time three daughters called me and asked me to give their father a blessing, and as I went in the room, they pulled me aside and they said, you know, our father really wasn't that religious, and we thought he didn't stand a chance, but actually, the last couple days, he's been saying he's been going from this world to the next world, and if he had ever understood what life was really about, he would have surrendered a lot sooner to God. They watched him die, but they had peace.
And so often that happens, that we get focused in on the illness itself and the political controversy and what laws are going to have to be passed. But in the midst of it, those of us who believe say death is not the end of life, and Terri Schiavo is going to be in a better place. LIN: That's got to be some comfort to Terri Schiavo's parents. We did hear from the family attorney, who did say the family is now relying on their faith. But the politicization of this case is still going on, even more so.
For example, remarks by Cardinal Renato Martino, out of the Vatican. He specifically stated that her death was a crime against God. Monsignor, he used these words: "It is nothing else but murder. It is a victory of the culture of death over life. This is not a natural death, it is an imposed death."
Frankly, what's your reaction when you hear remarks like that coming out of Vatican? Does that offer any grace or peace to the thousands of people every day who go through this?
HARTMAN: Well, I think it's very difficult to figure out the answers to every question. We're all wrestling with the mysteries of life. I believe people on both sides of the debate are acting with honesty and integrity. The most important thing that I see and what the pope says is that people who are dying deserve a dignity. They deserve to be fed and taken care of, and even if it inconveniences us or costs us money and is less efficient in the business framework of things. There's another side of our life that we have to listen to, and that's the spirit, that's the grace, that's the trusting that God has a plan and a purpose for our lives, and that's the part that I would like to look at.
I don't think we're talking about murder. I think people are just debating different ways in which or ends should come about.
LIN: Monsignor, the family has litigated this right to the bitter end. In this moment now that their daughter has passed on, how would you like to see Bob and Mary Schindler spend the remaining days and weeks as, frankly, the words are going to be -- the barbs will be traded between the Democrats and Republicans, the Religious Right the pro-choice people, and even maybe even more from the Vatican. How do you think the Schindlers should handle this with grace?
HARTMAN: I think they have to be very proud of their daughter. They, who gave her so much love, will in some way experience her. She who couldn't speak that well here on Earth is now speaking and walking and taking care of herself in the next world. She's preparing a place for them.
So I think that just as Jesus said, when you want to go pray, go off quietly and pray to yourself, I think the real hope that they have is the absolute promise that God says I will be with you in your suffering and I will be with you as the come into eternal life. That's what I would hope that they would think of, that they're proud of their daughter, and they're going to continue to be an example of faith and love and care to other people on this Earth.
LIN: Monsignor, it's not often that I get tears in my eyes sitting here on this set, and I appreciate your words. Thank you very much. We've got much more on LIVE FROM. We're in fact waiting for two important news conferences, one from the House majority leader Tom DeLay, and we are going to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, all at 2:30, right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: So any bitter debates that erupted over the Terri Schiavo case, discord that will clearly not end with her death. CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider is here to talk with us about what appears on the surface to be a polarization, that whole red state/blue state thing, but really when you get down to the numbers, it isn't quite so, is it, Bill?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: No, it is not. It is not an issue, the Terri Schiavo did not really polarize the country. It was not red states against blue states. The vast majority of Americans agreed this was an issue that politics should be kept out of, but what it did do is create an angry and embittered constituency, the "save Terri Schiavo" constituency, that means to have some influence in politics. When you have an angry and embittered constituency, as this one is, there's one thing they want, and that's retribution.
O'BRIEN: Well, retribution is kind of a scary word. The bill may be coming due for Republicans who were elected on the support of this, you know, religious right-wing component of this party. They're holding them accountable. I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise. The question is, when does that desire, that press to make to make that bill come due become an overreach?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it will come due when judges are up for confirmation, before the United States Senate, federal judges, and possibly sometime in the near future, Supreme Court appointees. These people feel betrayed. They helped Republicans get elected. They helped Republicans take control of the White House, Congress, the Florida state government, and in fact most federal judges today were appointed by Republicans. And they feel as if these politicians, and particularly these judges, did not deliver, and that's why they feel betrayed. And that's why no less Tom DeLay in the statement he issued earlier -- we'll be hearing from him shortly at his press conference -- he said the time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. So he's promising retribution.
O'BRIEN: Depending on which way you look at this, you could call this a bit of blackmail, political extortion, but again these are strong supporters, many of these people who rode themselves to office, at least espousing these beliefs?
SCHNEIDER: That's right. They were critical of Jeb Bush. They were critical of President Bush. They were critical of the leadership of Congress for not doing more. Some of them were really pressuring. They don't think of it as blackmail. They think it's honest political pressure from an intensely angry constituency that wants politicians to deliver. They helped them get elected, they said, and you didn't deliver. Of course the politicians were very wary, because they knew where the prevailing public sentiment was on this issue, and it was not with that bitter constituency.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Bill Schneider, we always appreciate your insights in all this in what has become a very politicized debate.
Back with more LIVE FROM in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 31, 2005 - 13:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Florida Governor Jeb Bush was right at the center of this controversy for quite some time. Today he was quoted as saying, he wishes he could have done more to help Terri Schiavo. He was called upon by Terri Schiavo's parents, the Schindlers, many times to do whatever he could within his powers in order to save Terri's life. He did everything within his power, but it was not enough.
Let's listen to some of his responses earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) not allowing the Schindlers to be with Terri as she died. Do you have any sort of comment on that situation?
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I think now is the time really pay tribute to Terri Schiavo, and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted, and there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this, for you know, a lot of different things to be discussed, but I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
BLITZER: Is there legislation going forward on this issue?
BUSH: I don't know. I've talked to Senator Webster just about every day, and we're both committed to looking at legislation, whether it will be done this year or not, I don't know. I think there's a lot of raw emotion still, and it may be appropriate to wait and to thoughtfully go about this. But we're going to look at our laws compared to other states, and I'm going to propose changes if it's appropriate, so that we can deal with the conflict and the guardianship issue, which I believe is what president Lee was probably talking about.
It is disheartening that basic questions like a funeral can't be decided upon, and then we have the end-of-life issues, clearer definitions perhaps of what persistent vegetative state is, and what should be done as it relates to the removal of hydration and food, basic elements of life. And then how do we create incentives to have written directives, which is really the answer to this, is that we don't count on government to be the arbiter or count on courts to do that, that this is really our responsibility for the people that we love, to work with them and to talk about this and to deal with it way in advance of it happening.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) you just said talk in advance.
BUSH: I think what we ought to be doing is creating policy based on the broadest possible implications rather than responding. We attempted to do that, successfully in the sense that Terri Schiavo's life was saved for a little more than a year, and it was attempted again this year related to her case, and I encourage that, and I'm appreciative of Senator Webster and the leadership of the house, Representative Backsly (ph), for doing the good work to respond to her challenge, but now is the time to look at this from the broader perspective. The answer to whether or not a moral directive is appropriate is how many people have written directives, and how can we incent that before we can answer whether that should be restricted in some ways?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: That's Governor Jeb Bush, just a little while ago, offering no small series of hints that this is not the end of this matter in the broadest sense, and that he will encourage, at least the Florida legislature, to consider at least the possibility of changing legislation to make it clear that absent a written living will, the default would be to allow those artificial means to sustain one's life. We'll keep you posted as that part of the story continues to unfold over the months and years.
Back with more in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to LIVE FROM.
We're getting new information on the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo. Susan Candiotti is standing by down there in Pinellas Park, Florida with the very latest on that.
Susan, what have you learned about this procedure and what they're looking for?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, first of all, this was issued a press release that we received from they. And they wanted to make clear first of all that under Florida law, they're authorized to conduct an autopsy on anyone they want to, really independent or even without permission of the legally authorized next of kin, although of course in this case we know that Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, wanted an autopsy to take place. They're telling us that they'll be conducting routine procedure during the course of this autopsy, that will be supplemented by, as they call it, post-mortem radiographs. Our understanding is this is standard operating procedure. It will include photographs being taken of Mrs. Schiavo, as well as X-rays of various body parts, looking for, for example, for broken bones, and that kind of thing.
It will also include a neuropathology examination, which means in laymen's terms, it will be examining her brain. This is one of the things they've been talking about for several days now, that through Michael Schiavo, he wanted to make sure that that took place so that any question would be eliminated about the extent of her brain damage. Now, according to Florida law, this autopsy, once it completed -- and it may take, they said, several weeks -- but once it is complete, the report will be made public and we'll be notified when it's ready -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thanks very much, Susan.
Very quickly, have you heard any opposition from Terri Schiavo's parents on this autopsy and whether they're going to take any action too stop it?
CANDIOTTI: We have not heard any of that, and it will be conducted by the chief medical inspector, who is very well-respected in this area, here in Pinellas County. And at 3:30 this afternoon, we will hear from a spokesman for the medical examiner. He will make a brief statement, we are told. He is the director of forensic investigation, so perhaps we'll be able to learn more at that time.
LIN: Good enough. Thanks very much, Susan. We'll hear more at 3:30 this afternoon, Eastern Time.
In the meantime, there are more questions actually than answers about the autopsy and exactly why they would be conducting it. So let's turn to Sanjay Gupta here, our chief medical correspondent. Sanjay, why are they conducting this autopsy? I mean, it seems to me the consensus is that she was in a persistent vegetative state and that contributed to her demise.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, there's not consensus on that persistent vegetative state, which is sort of remarkable still at this stage, but again, you know, thee five neurologists, three said she was, two said she wasn't. To answer your question directly, the reason that she's getting an autopsy is because her next-of-kin requested it.
And there are really three reasons that someone gets an autopsy. One is in the case of an unexpected death, like someone who has a death right after an operation, for example. Two is the question of a criminal death, a homicide, that sort of thing. Or three is a family request. Not all family requests are honored, but in this case, they decided to try and put this issue about persistent vegetative state to the test a little bit with an autopsy.
LIN: What are they going to see and learn from it, then?
GUPTA: That's a good question, because a lot of people are expecting that they're going to have an answer, there's going to be an absolute answer as to whether or not she was in a persistent vegetative state, and that's probably not going to happen. They may be a little disappointed there.
There is going to be a lot of knowledge gained from an autopsy, an exponential amount of knowledge, in terms of the status of her brain, which parts were affected, which parts of her brain had been affected 15 years ago and where cells died, what her function would have been. But that question, that lingering question, as to whether or not she was in a persistent vegetative state, really cannot be answered by an autopsy. It's just more information still.
LIN: I would think that just the physical nature of the brain itself would answer those questions.
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, again, and I have some pictures here, which might actually, you know, tell the story a little bit better. Take a look at the brain on the left there. That's a healthy brain. And the brain on the right is from a patient who is known to have persistent vegetative state.
And I think even a layperson can tell significant differences between those two brains. The brain on the right, significant loss of tissue. But that critical step, Carol, again, taking that step to say that -- this brain, for sure, when looking at Mrs. Schiavo's brain, is a brain of a persistent vegetative state, is really not possible, because PVS, as we know it, is a clinical diagnosis. You really have to look at the patient. And they didn't agree on that.
LIN: Why are they looking for broken bones?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I think -- they do these post-mortem radiographs, that's standard procedure. I'm not sure they're looking for broken bones. They just check for anything, any metal in the body. That's standard. They also take photographs. They want to document the exact condition of the body at the time of death. That's pretty standard with a post-mortem examination.
LIN: Sanjay, there's been a lot of characterization by politicians and religious fundamentalists who are personally involved in this case that her death was barbaric. That's what one of the phrases that was used. The actual moment of death, what was that like? Was it peaceful or was it, in some way, inhumane?
GUPTA: Well, the answer -- the right answer is nobody really knows, because Terri Schiavo obviously could not tell us. But there have been a lot of studies done on people in terminal stages of life who have not been fed or have not received anything to drink for some time. Terminal cancer, for example.
And those studies have been done, trying to figure out, is it starvation or is it hunger? And is there pain involved? And a lot of end-of-life specialists have weighed in on this, weighed in on the studies and said, it's not pain so much. Some even describe it as a sense of euphoria at that time. We don't know. Terri Schiavo can't tell us.
LIN: How would they know euphoria?
GUPTA: Well, they -- again, patients who are able to communicate, who, you know, were not in a persistent vegetative state but had terminal cancer, for example, but were not eating or drinking in the last couple weeks of their life. They described what they were feeling to their doctors and to people who were studying them. It's a difficult question.
I will tell you, in a hospice-type situation, the situation Mrs. Schiavo was in, they're really good at this. This is what they do, in terms of caring for patients, making sure that they're not in any kind of discomfort at the time. They talked about the pain medications, even. Why were they given if she doesn't have any awareness? Well, they're given because they're not going to hurt her, they might help her, so why not give them? And that's the type of thinking that goes into it.
LIN: Right. And certainly a comfort, usually, for the family.
GUPTA: That's right. Exactly.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Sanjay. We are going to be exploring this whole issue of the moment of death and also some reactions to Terri Schiavo's death at 9:05 today. I'm going to be talking to Father Tom Hartman -- you know him as half of the famous God Squad -- about this. And also about some controversial remarks that are coming out of the Vatican. A cardinal with some pretty heated words about what Terri Schiavo's death was and what it will mean.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Well, the Terri Schiavo case raised profound questions about life and death. Where exactly is the line and who, if anyone, is qualified to make the call in such wrenching situations? And how do people of faith live with an outcome they may not have prayed for?
Well, I want to ask some of those questions to someone who's been called to answer these kinds of questions, frankly, everyday. Monsignor Tom Hartman, a Catholic priest and part of the God Squad, joins me from Babylon, New York.
Monsignor, you have been touched personally in this experience. You have witnessed how many deaths in your parish?
MSGR. TOM HARTMAN, CATHOLIC PRIEST: Well, I've witnessed about 4,000 deaths, but 1,000 of the people, when I was staying with them, would tell me about near-death experiences, the experience of being lifted out of their body and going to the next world.
I remember, for example, one time three daughters called me and asked me to give their father a blessing, and as I went in the room, they pulled me aside and they said, you know, our father really wasn't that religious, and we thought he didn't stand a chance, but actually, the last couple days, he's been saying he's been going from this world to the next world, and if he had ever understood what life was really about, he would have surrendered a lot sooner to God. They watched him die, but they had peace.
And so often that happens, that we get focused in on the illness itself and the political controversy and what laws are going to have to be passed. But in the midst of it, those of us who believe say death is not the end of life, and Terri Schiavo is going to be in a better place. LIN: That's got to be some comfort to Terri Schiavo's parents. We did hear from the family attorney, who did say the family is now relying on their faith. But the politicization of this case is still going on, even more so.
For example, remarks by Cardinal Renato Martino, out of the Vatican. He specifically stated that her death was a crime against God. Monsignor, he used these words: "It is nothing else but murder. It is a victory of the culture of death over life. This is not a natural death, it is an imposed death."
Frankly, what's your reaction when you hear remarks like that coming out of Vatican? Does that offer any grace or peace to the thousands of people every day who go through this?
HARTMAN: Well, I think it's very difficult to figure out the answers to every question. We're all wrestling with the mysteries of life. I believe people on both sides of the debate are acting with honesty and integrity. The most important thing that I see and what the pope says is that people who are dying deserve a dignity. They deserve to be fed and taken care of, and even if it inconveniences us or costs us money and is less efficient in the business framework of things. There's another side of our life that we have to listen to, and that's the spirit, that's the grace, that's the trusting that God has a plan and a purpose for our lives, and that's the part that I would like to look at.
I don't think we're talking about murder. I think people are just debating different ways in which or ends should come about.
LIN: Monsignor, the family has litigated this right to the bitter end. In this moment now that their daughter has passed on, how would you like to see Bob and Mary Schindler spend the remaining days and weeks as, frankly, the words are going to be -- the barbs will be traded between the Democrats and Republicans, the Religious Right the pro-choice people, and even maybe even more from the Vatican. How do you think the Schindlers should handle this with grace?
HARTMAN: I think they have to be very proud of their daughter. They, who gave her so much love, will in some way experience her. She who couldn't speak that well here on Earth is now speaking and walking and taking care of herself in the next world. She's preparing a place for them.
So I think that just as Jesus said, when you want to go pray, go off quietly and pray to yourself, I think the real hope that they have is the absolute promise that God says I will be with you in your suffering and I will be with you as the come into eternal life. That's what I would hope that they would think of, that they're proud of their daughter, and they're going to continue to be an example of faith and love and care to other people on this Earth.
LIN: Monsignor, it's not often that I get tears in my eyes sitting here on this set, and I appreciate your words. Thank you very much. We've got much more on LIVE FROM. We're in fact waiting for two important news conferences, one from the House majority leader Tom DeLay, and we are going to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, all at 2:30, right here on CNN.
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O'BRIEN: So any bitter debates that erupted over the Terri Schiavo case, discord that will clearly not end with her death. CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider is here to talk with us about what appears on the surface to be a polarization, that whole red state/blue state thing, but really when you get down to the numbers, it isn't quite so, is it, Bill?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: No, it is not. It is not an issue, the Terri Schiavo did not really polarize the country. It was not red states against blue states. The vast majority of Americans agreed this was an issue that politics should be kept out of, but what it did do is create an angry and embittered constituency, the "save Terri Schiavo" constituency, that means to have some influence in politics. When you have an angry and embittered constituency, as this one is, there's one thing they want, and that's retribution.
O'BRIEN: Well, retribution is kind of a scary word. The bill may be coming due for Republicans who were elected on the support of this, you know, religious right-wing component of this party. They're holding them accountable. I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise. The question is, when does that desire, that press to make to make that bill come due become an overreach?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it will come due when judges are up for confirmation, before the United States Senate, federal judges, and possibly sometime in the near future, Supreme Court appointees. These people feel betrayed. They helped Republicans get elected. They helped Republicans take control of the White House, Congress, the Florida state government, and in fact most federal judges today were appointed by Republicans. And they feel as if these politicians, and particularly these judges, did not deliver, and that's why they feel betrayed. And that's why no less Tom DeLay in the statement he issued earlier -- we'll be hearing from him shortly at his press conference -- he said the time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. So he's promising retribution.
O'BRIEN: Depending on which way you look at this, you could call this a bit of blackmail, political extortion, but again these are strong supporters, many of these people who rode themselves to office, at least espousing these beliefs?
SCHNEIDER: That's right. They were critical of Jeb Bush. They were critical of President Bush. They were critical of the leadership of Congress for not doing more. Some of them were really pressuring. They don't think of it as blackmail. They think it's honest political pressure from an intensely angry constituency that wants politicians to deliver. They helped them get elected, they said, and you didn't deliver. Of course the politicians were very wary, because they knew where the prevailing public sentiment was on this issue, and it was not with that bitter constituency.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Bill Schneider, we always appreciate your insights in all this in what has become a very politicized debate.
Back with more LIVE FROM in a moment.
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