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Terri Schiavo Dies; Vatican Weighs In
Aired March 31, 2005 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: It's heartbreaking, to be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF JODI CENTONZE: It's sad. It's really sad. But, you know, I'm happy for Terri.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Reaction to the death of Terri Schiavo. The brain-damaged woman at the center of a family dispute and a national debate.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: In a few minutes, we are expecting a news conference from the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, and we are going to bring it to you when it happens.
From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin, in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now.
It's intensely private and public. It brings together and divides. Relatives and friends, advocates and proxies melding sorrow with lingering bitterness. It's the death of Terri Schiavo, born Theresa Marie Schindler 41 years ago December, but it also describes her final years, and especially her final 13 days.
We begin this hour's coverage with CNN's Bob Franken, who has been in Pinellas Park now for the final chapter of Terri Schiavo's life.
And Bob, just set the scene for us right there now. Obviously, this has been a focus of demonstration for quite some time now. What's it been like over the past few hours?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there have been some outbursts, individual outbursts, but for the most part subdued. Of course, as we know, this is not the final chapter in the story of this war within the family. There is an autopsy that is going on right now. Following that autopsy, if the wishes of the -- Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael, are followed, the remains will be cremated and then transported to Pennsylvania, where there will be burial. The family is adamantly opposed to that, saying that that violates Catholic doctrine, that Terri was Catholic, and they are Catholic. They would prefer a burial of the entire remains here.
So this is not over yet, regrettably.
O'BRIEN: And you say the mood subdued. I noted -- and you spoke about it yesterday -- that as this kind of rose to a crescendo, so did the security and the apparent concerns of the authorities. A few skirmishes here and there. But in the end, nothing really of any level of violence to take note of.
FRANKEN: No, no. The police were just taking no chances.
They got a bomb scare, as we discussed, the day before yesterday. And as a result, they initiated some more significant security at the entrance points of the roads here. You had to stop and have your car searched.
They also had -- and it was something that we were aware of, but we're not particularly ready to report -- they had a sniper located on one of the roofs, just in case. Obviously, what they wanted to do was over-prepare on the ground, for the most part.
The police officers tried to be as polite and detached as they could, and were able to pull it off. In fact, the Pinellas Park Police Department has gotten quite a bit of praise for the way that it conducted itself.
O'BRIEN: Yes. I think they handled it pretty well.
One thing that has struck me throughout this, Bob -- and maybe you can comment on this a little bit -- is how really the group out there is pretty one-dimensional, all on one side of this, representing the Schindler family, Terri's parents, and not so much Michael Schiavo's faction, if you will. Why not?
FRANKEN: Well, the ones who really felt most passionately about this were the people who have been associated with the so-called right to life movement, the ones who are very heavily into the religions that have made this so much a part of their doctrine. And they were the ones who were out here, ranging from some of the more fundamentalist religions who -- a large contingent of Roman Catholics.
They were combined with people from the anti-abortion movement. They were all here.
Every once in a while, somebody who supported Michael Schiavo, or who opposed interfering in the death of Terri Schiavo, would be here. Sometimes he would be engaged in an argument, sometimes he was just ignored. But, you're right, it was almost all exclusively the family. And the family, by the way, headquartered here also. And so we saw all them while Michael Schiavo decided that he wanted to be with as low visibility as possible.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken still there in Pinellas Park. Thank you for your insights -- Carol.
O'BRIEN: Miles, later this hour -- in fact, in about 25 minutes -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. A news conference is scheduled for 2:30 p.m. Eastern, 11:30 a.m. Pacific, and you are going to see it live right here on CNN.
We're also planning on bringing you a news conference with House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who has been critical of Terri Schiavo's death. And he's got some pretty heated words to say as well on this matter. He led the fight in Congress to change some laws.
In the meantime, Terri Schiavo's last days and frankly the manner in which she died have raised questions about life and death and medical ethics. So joining me now to talk about these issues is Arthur Caplan. He is the director for the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Art, you've had a lot to say in the last 13 days about that. But -- about this whole situation. But in the end, what do you think we have learned from this Terri Schiavo case?
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you know, Carol, we learned a couple things. One is that Americans are pretty religious people. They also love their medicine and science. And the two make a very potent mixture.
On one side, there are religious people, strange as it may seem, who say you've got to use medicine to the hilt. On the other side, there are people trying to say, but wait, that's why we put switches on our medical technology. We can shut them off, we can take them away. That combustible mixture of religion and medical technology really played itself out in this case.
Two other quick points. This is a clash of two goods. You kind of lose it in all the rhetoric and accusations.
But on the one side, pro-life. And life is a great value and one that medicine has to respect and pursue, obviously. On the other side, liberty, the right to say no, the right to control what happens to you. Those are really just coming into direct conflict in this matter.
The third issue, we learned a little bit, I hope, about the importance of conversation about these things. Terri Schiavo gave us a small gift. She said, you'd better talk with your loved ones. It's important to write down who you'd want to make decisions for you.
So I hope all of us do take that step. I'm afraid some of us won't, but it is an important thing to do, to say, here's who speaks for me.
LIN: What do you make of the remarks coming out of the Vatican today, of Vatican cardinals saying that her death is a crime against god? He goes on to call it -- that it's nothing else but murder, a victory of the culture of death over life. Do you think those remarks are helpful?
CAPLAN: I don't. I know that the Vatican has been very strong on this, and the teaching has been coming out really for more than a year. Feeding tubes is ordinary, you've got to preserve life, the pope himself is showing us through his struggles with Parkinson's and his getting a feeding tube, the church position.
But I don't think the right way to phrase these things is "murder," "killing." To me, what we're seeing is allowing someone to control what they would want, allowing someone to have what they would want.
LIN: Yes, but that's a big question. That's a big question because, you know, it's not -- it turns out, through all of this, frankly it's not even enough to have a written will.
CAPLAN: Well, probably not. For some it wouldn't be enough. They would say you could never stop.
LIN: But apparently you've got to keep having these public conversations with people. Because let's say you write a living will when you're 20. Someone could make the argument, oh, you're only 20, what do you know then?
CAPLAN: Right. And you don't update it for five years and can we trust it?
LIN: Right.
CAPLAN: I'll come back and say this, look, if -- I understand the Catholic position on this. It's very clear what the Vatican teachings are. But if you're going to use terms like "murder" and "killing" and "euthanasia," that implies involuntariness. That implies someone doing to someone else, a homicide.
What we have here at least is -- the rationale is, that's what she would want. She wouldn't want to be treated. And when the Christian scientists says it or the Jehovah's Witness says it on religious grounds, people don't rally up and say they have to be treated.
LIN: No. But at the same time, you know, how do you argue in a public manner that, you know, when the family goes to the microphones and says she's being starved to death, there is no -- I mean, you know, the doctors will say, no, it's artificial hydration and nutrition. You know, this is a woman who's not present. But those are loaded words that this woman was starved to death.
CAPLAN: Absolutely.
LIN: And as far as a certain constituency is concerned, that is the reason why Terri Schiavo died.
CAPLAN: Well, you know, you asked me earlier, Carol, big-picture issues about this case. We have a hard time as Americans accepting death. We just do.
We believe in our technology. We believe in our feeding tubes. Everybody -- every one of us will die without air, without somebody trying CPR on us. We will all, in a sense, not get a feeding tube at some point. Everybody, in a sense, has to die around technology.
And it's very difficult for many of us to accept the idea that some people die without breathing, some people die from poisons building up in their bodies because their kidneys stop. Some people die of dehydration. Some people die without food. But that is, in fact, how we die.
LIN: And I think, frankly, we've learned a lot about our comfort level with the notion of death. Arthur Caplan, thank you very much.
CAPLAN: Thanks very much.
LIN: Miles.
O'BRIEN: Well, as Carol and Arthur Caplan just mentioned, the Vatican has weighed in on this issue in no uncertain terms and language that many people would view as pejorative. One cardinal saying Terri Schiavo's death is nothing short of murder.
CNN's Alessio Vincin in Rome with more from Cardinal Renato Martino and others there at the Vatican -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Miles.
Yes, there's a mixture of sadness, anger and somewhat disappointment here at the Vatican tonight. A top cardinal telling us that Pope John Paul II was immediately informed of the death of Terri Schiavo, and the Vatican press office issued moments early its own statement, saying that the death of Terri Schiavo was arbitrarily anticipated because feeding a person through a tube does not constitute aggressive therapy.
The statement also goes on as saying that, "No exceptions can be allowed the sacredness of life which is intended from its conception to its natural end." And finally, the Vatican statement saying that this is nothing -- that this is not only a principle of Christian ethics, but also a principle of human civilization.
Now, meanwhile, Cardinal Renato Martino, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace spokes to us earlier today, and he went even a step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL RENATO MARTINO, VATICAN PONTIFICAL COUNCIL: When you deprive someone of food and water, what is -- what is -- what else is more than -- nothing else than murder. (END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: Now, Cardinal Martino, who has been in the past a critic, an outspoken critic of U.S. President George W. Bush, especially as to the -- his policies in Iraq tonight, he praised the president for trying to Terri Schiavo's life. But then Cardinal Martino also said that her ordeal clearly indicates the weakness of the judicial system in preserving life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINO: But if there are laws that protect the life of animals and not to give excruciating suffering to animals, why -- that law should not be applied to another animal, a human animal, like Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: The Vatican, meanwhile, hopes that Terri Schiavo's experience could help bring greater awareness among public opinion about the true meaning of life.
Miles, back to you.
O'BRIEN: Alessio, the cardinal is speaking there with great certainty there, and talking about excruciating suffering, which, of course, is a debatable point. But what's also debatable is what the real church teachings are here, what the Canon Law says, does, in fact, belie what the pope said in a speech a year ago. Is there any feeling inside the Vatican of that side of it, that maybe the Catholic teachings are not as clear-cut as it may seem here?
VINCI: Well, you know, the Catholic teachings, who not only date back to one year ago, but even 10 years ago, if not further back, obviously have been having a hard time keeping up with improvements of modern medicine. But on the one issue, the Catholic Church is clear. And that is, that unless a person is brain dead, completely no -- whatsoever -- no sign whatsoever of life, then this person must be kept alive with all possible means, including medical means.
And that artificially feeding a person through a tube, whether it's inserted through the nose, as it is the case of the pope tonight, or as Terri Schiavo, which I understand required a little bit of surgery, that does not constitute aggressive therapy. And therefore, there is a moral duty among the doctors to keep the person alive. And that is the one issue where the Vatican is extremely clear on this issue.
On the other side, the Vatican says that -- and the teachings of the Catholic Church says that the Vatican is not necessarily against preserving or in favor of preserving life at any cost, especially if preserving life through medical means prolongs the agony of the patient. In that case, obviously, the Vatican says that person should be let die of a natural death, if you want -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. So there is still some interpretation that is allowed within that context. Alessio Vinci in Rome, thank you very much -- Carol.
LIN: Well, Florida governor Jeb Bush is offering his condolences, and he says the debate could help others deal with end of life issues. Governor Bush stepped into the Schiavo case a number of times. And CNN's Ed Henry is live in Washington.
Ed, I mean, stepping in -- I mean, he virtually -- a whole law was built around him injecting himself into this case and getting Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted the last go-round. So what more did the governor have to say about her passing today?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, there had been a lot of political pressure in recent days for the governor to do much more than he had already done. A lot of people, specifically conservatives in Florida, were pressing him to try to step in, take state custody of Terri Schiavo and reinsert that feeding tube.
He said again today that he has sadness in his heart over this case. But he said his hands were tied, he could do nothing more legally. And you could tell just by looking at him that this case is still weighing on the governor very much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: You know, I think now is the time to -- really to pay tribute to Terri Schiavo and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted. And, you know, there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this for, you know, a lot of different things to be discussed. But I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, and I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, in a written statement earlier today, the governor kicked up a little bit of a controversy because he only referred and expressed his condolences to the Schindler side of the family, the parents and siblings of Terri Schiavo. He made no mention of Michael Schiavo. And when CNN called his press office to get more information about that and press him on the matter, the governor's press secretary said that the governor was focusing on the biological family and then hung up the phone.
So obviously, you can tell the divide over both sides of the family still going on in the governor's own statement. As well, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay kicking up a controversy today in his own written statement, expressing condolences on the death of Terri Schiavo, but specifically pinning the blame on the U.S. legal system and saying, "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior." That from Tom DeLay.
I can tell you, Democrats on Capitol Hill behind me here in Washington are already pouncing on it, saying they think this is threatening to state and federal judges who had issued rulings in this case. The congressman's press secretary, Dan Allen, told CNN that he believes the congressman was just disappointed about the fact that various judges did not follow the intent of that emergency legislation that Congress passed. When pressed on it, the congressman's spokesman said, in fact, later this hour Mr. DeLay will have more to say -- Carol.
LIN: You bet. In fact, we're hoping to hear from him in about 10 minutes at a news conference. Thanks very much, Ed -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now.
And I want to pick up one point. We just heard from the Vatican. "Excruciating suffering" was the term that the cardinal used in referring to the way Terri Schiavo died. And I just think it's important every time something like that is stated to remind our viewers that that is not a statement of fact. There is some interpretation in that.
Let's talk about what the medical facts are here.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, first of all, we don't know. And that's because Terri Schiavo couldn't tell us. And I think people understand that.
But there have been studies done on this sort of thing, specifically in patients with terminal cancer, for example, who are at the end of their lives, who do have their feeding tubes removed, and are able to communicate. And that's where these statements come from that you've been hearing from some of the doctors, some of the end-of- life doctors, talking specifically about the fact that the sort of signs of hunger and thirst, those sorts of symptoms actually aren't present.
One of the end-of-life specialists I talked to, Miles, actually said some patients describe a sense of euphoria. Now, again, with Terri Schiavo, we don't know, but there have been studies -- scientific studies done on this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things he made in that context, he was talking about how we treat animals better.
GUPTA: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, think for a moment about how we treat animals. We euthanize animals. That's not what he's suggesting obviously.
GUPTA: Yes. And I was struck by the same thing.
I mean, we treat animals better. We should treat another animal, human beings, the same way, he said. Yes, euthanasia is very well accepted in animals, dogs and cats, but I think everyone pretty much agrees -- well, I shouldn't say that, but a lot of people agree that euthanasia in humans is a slippery slope and something that we have to be very careful about. I can't imagine that in any way he was advocating that. O'BRIEN: Of course, there is a strong faction out there that would say under certain circumstances hastening one's own death is appropriate and is a humane thing. But that's a whole other argument we could get into and we could spend a lot of time on that one.
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about living wills for a minute. Do you have a living will?
GUPTA: I do a living well.
O'BRIEN: And do you update it? Check it? Do you tell people about it as we're told to?
I think that's one of the important things we're learning here. Just having that document, stuffing it in a drawer, putting it in a safe-deposit box may not be enough.
GUPTA: I'm sort of guilty on that count. I haven't really updated it. I did it when I became a doctor. And a lot of us did at that time.
It's interesting. You know, as part of the living will, a term that you won't hear typically in there is "persistent vegetative state." Living wills aren't so focused on terms like we have been over the last couple weeks.
They're not going to say, well, if I'm in a persistent vegetative state versus a minimally conscious state, do X versus Y. What they really want to know is, when you are unable to care for yourself, when your prognosis is so poor and you can no longer make decisions, what's going to happen to you? That's what they want to sort of get at.
And, you know, we focus so much on the persistent vegetative state with Terri Schiavo versus minimally conscious. That doesn't come up in most living wills.
O'BRIEN: But shouldn't they be specific, as specific as you can be, to lay out instances so that there isn't this confusion, debate, interpretation of that document or of those wishes?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not sure you can ever fully do that.
I mean, you've seen neurologists, board-certified neurologists, examining her. We saw some of these tapes for the first time, Miles, today. Some of these exams, doctors' exams that we've been talking so much about, we witnessed them. Doctors conducting almost the same exam and having almost diametrically opposed opinion on her status and potential recovery.
So, you're right, there's always going to be some degree of confusion. But, you know, as a neurosurgeon, I'll say this, that I think most patients' families sort of get this when you talk to them. It's really the legal system and stories like this that sort of force absolutes where absolutes just aren't present. Most people understand when you say, listen, this is a very serious thing, we don't think they're ever going to be back to where they were before, here's where we think they are, they don't get so hung up on the terms, at least not most parents.
O'BRIEN: And it happens every day we should remind people.
GUPTA: Ten thousand to 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state right now.
O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Carol.
LIN: All right. We are just moments away from an expected news conference by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, from his office in Florida. We are going to take you there for a preview. We want to hear what Michael Schiavo's side has to say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Well, a short time from now -- in fact, moments from now -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney. George Felos is to address reporters at his office in Dunedin, Florida. And that's where we find CNN's Randi Kaye, standing by there right now waiting for the attorney's appearance.
Randi, so far there have been lots of characterizations by the supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents about the last moments of Terri Schiavo's life and who was allowed in the room or not. We're anxious to hear from the attorney here.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are anxious to ask him that question, exactly how those final hours and final minutes were spent in Terri Schiavo's hospice room. We understand that the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, were not in there. Her brother and sister were not in there.
We're going to ask him exactly why. Because we had been told in recent days that he and the Schindlers and their attorney were going to try and work out an agreement for both sides to be with Terri during her final minutes. Apparently that did not happen.
We are expected to hear from him in just a few moments from now. We have not heard from Michael Schiavo today. In fact, we haven't heard from Michael Schiavo in quite some time now. He's remained very private during the final days of Terri Schiavo's life.
There are about 20 or so cameras here, waiting to see him. There's also some pretty heavy security.
In recent days, apparently George Felos has been getting some threats here at his office in Dunedin, Florida. Threats from all across the world, apparently, calling him a murderer and making death threats here.
So there has been some pretty heavy security here. Sheriff's deputies all across the area right now.
So we do have a lot of questions for him about the planned cremation of Terri Schiavo. We have some questions for him about the planned autopsy which is taking place today. And also about those final minutes in Terri Schiavo's hospice room -- Carol.
LIN: Randi, do you expect also that George Felos is going to be talking about the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo, why Michael Schiavo has made that decision and whether there will be any sort of dispute by Terri Schiavo's parents?
KAYE: We haven't heard yet that there will be any type of dispute. He did talk about the autopsy.
The way it was sort of explained to us, he made it sound as if it was Michael Schiavo's suggestion. But apparently this was something that was already planned by the coroner, by the medical examiner.
So Michael Schiavo apparently agreed to it, we were told. And we do hope to get more details from him about this.
This really has been, for both sides, a very emotional time, Carol. George Felos just shared with us over the weekend that he once was a hospice volunteer. And so he has seen people go through this and families be torn apart by this. And he will still describe, I would expect today, Terri Schiavo's final hours and final days as peaceful, comfortable, and exactly what Terri Schiavo had wanted and how she wanted to end her life.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Randi Kaye, standing by there.
Any moment now expecting to cover that news conference -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Of course we'll bring it to you when it happens. Michael Schiavo attorney George Felos coming momentarily. We'll also look at how other families dealt with a dying loved one when LIVE FROM continues.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: It's heartbreaking, to be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF JODI CENTONZE: It's sad. It's really sad. But, you know, I'm happy for Terri.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Reaction to the death of Terri Schiavo. The brain-damaged woman at the center of a family dispute and a national debate.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: In a few minutes, we are expecting a news conference from the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, and we are going to bring it to you when it happens.
From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin, in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now.
It's intensely private and public. It brings together and divides. Relatives and friends, advocates and proxies melding sorrow with lingering bitterness. It's the death of Terri Schiavo, born Theresa Marie Schindler 41 years ago December, but it also describes her final years, and especially her final 13 days.
We begin this hour's coverage with CNN's Bob Franken, who has been in Pinellas Park now for the final chapter of Terri Schiavo's life.
And Bob, just set the scene for us right there now. Obviously, this has been a focus of demonstration for quite some time now. What's it been like over the past few hours?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there have been some outbursts, individual outbursts, but for the most part subdued. Of course, as we know, this is not the final chapter in the story of this war within the family.
There is an autopsy that is going on right now. Following that autopsy, if the wishes of the -- Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael, are followed, the remains will be cremated and then transported to Pennsylvania, where there will be burial. The family is adamantly opposed to that, saying that that violates Catholic doctrine, that Terri was Catholic, and they are Catholic. They would prefer a burial of the entire remains here.
So this is not over yet, regrettably.
O'BRIEN: And you say the mood subdued. I noted -- and you spoke about it yesterday -- that as this kind of rose to a crescendo, so did the security and the apparent concerns of the authorities. A few skirmishes here and there. But in the end, nothing really of any level of violence to take note of.
FRANKEN: No, no. The police were just taking no chances.
They got a bomb scare, as we discussed, the day before yesterday. And as a result, they initiated some more significant security at the entrance points of the roads here. You had to stop and have your car searched.
They also had -- and it was something that we were aware of, but we're not particularly ready to report -- they had a sniper located on one of the roofs, just in case. Obviously, what they wanted to do was over-prepare on the ground, for the most part.
The police officers tried to be as polite and detached as they could, and were able to pull it off. In fact, the Pinellas Park Police Department has gotten quite a bit of praise for the way that it conducted itself.
O'BRIEN: Yes. I think they handled it pretty well.
One thing that has struck me throughout this, Bob -- and maybe you can comment on this a little bit -- is how really the group out there is pretty one-dimensional, all on one side of this, representing the Schindler family, Terri's parents, and not so much Michael Schiavo's faction, if you will. Why not?
FRANKEN: Well, the ones who really felt most passionately about this were the people who have been associated with the so-called right to life movement, the ones who are very heavily into the religions that have made this so much a part of their doctrine. And they were the ones who were out here, ranging from some of the more fundamentalist religions who -- a large contingent of Roman Catholics.
They were combined with people from the anti-abortion movement. They were all here.
Every once in a while, somebody who supported Michael Schiavo, or who opposed interfering in the death of Terri Schiavo, would be here. Sometimes he would be engaged in an argument, sometimes he was just ignored.
But, you're right, it was almost all exclusively the family. And the family, by the way, headquartered here also. And so we saw all them while Michael Schiavo decided that he wanted to be with as low visibility as possible.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken still there in Pinellas Park. Thank you for your insights -- Carol.
O'BRIEN: Miles, later this hour -- in fact, in about 25 minutes -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. A news conference is scheduled for 2:30 p.m. Eastern, 11:30 a.m. Pacific, and you are going to see it live right here on CNN.
We're also planning on bringing you a news conference with House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who has been critical of Terri Schiavo's death. And he's got some pretty heated words to say as well on this matter. He led the fight in Congress to change some laws.
In the meantime, Terri Schiavo's last days and frankly the manner in which she died have raised questions about life and death and medical ethics. So joining me now to talk about these issues is Arthur Caplan. He is the director for the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Art, you've had a lot to say in the last 13 days about that. But -- about this whole situation. But in the end, what do you think we have learned from this Terri Schiavo case?
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you know, Carol, we learned a couple things. One is that Americans are pretty religious people. They also love their medicine and science. And the two make a very potent mixture.
On one side, there are religious people, strange as it may seem, who say you've got to use medicine to the hilt. On the other side, there are people trying to say, but wait, that's why we put switches on our medical technology. We can shut them off, we can take them away. That combustible mixture of religion and medical technology really played itself out in this case.
Two other quick points. This is a clash of two goods. You kind of lose it in all the rhetoric and accusations.
But on the one side, pro-life. And life is a great value and one that medicine has to respect and pursue, obviously. On the other side, liberty, the right to say no, the right to control what happens to you. Those are really just coming into direct conflict in this matter.
The third issue, we learned a little bit, I hope, about the importance of conversation about these things. Terri Schiavo gave us a small gift. She said, you'd better talk with your loved ones. It's important to write down who you'd want to make decisions for you.
So I hope all of us do take that step. I'm afraid some of us won't, but it is an important thing to do, to say, here's who speaks for me.
LIN: What do you make of the remarks coming out of the Vatican today, of Vatican cardinals saying that her death is a crime against god? He goes on to call it -- that it's nothing else but murder, a victory of the culture of death over life. Do you think those remarks are helpful?
CAPLAN: I don't. I know that the Vatican has been very strong on this, and the teaching has been coming out really for more than a year. Feeding tubes is ordinary, you've got to preserve life, the pope himself is showing us through his struggles with Parkinson's and his getting a feeding tube, the church position.
But I don't think the right way to phrase these things is "murder," "killing." To me, what we're seeing is allowing someone to control what they would want, allowing someone to have what they would want.
LIN: Yes, but that's a big question. That's a big question because, you know, it's not -- it turns out, through all of this, frankly it's not even enough to have a written will.
CAPLAN: Well, probably not. For some it wouldn't be enough. They would say you could never stop.
LIN: But apparently you've got to keep having these public conversations with people. Because let's say you write a living will when you're 20. Someone could make the argument, oh, you're only 20, what do you know then?
CAPLAN: Right. And you don't update it for five years and can we trust it?
LIN: Right.
CAPLAN: I'll come back and say this, look, if -- I understand the Catholic position on this. It's very clear what the Vatican teachings are. But if you're going to use terms like "murder" and "killing" and "euthanasia," that implies involuntariness. That implies someone doing to someone else, a homicide.
What we have here at least is -- the rationale is, that's what she would want. She wouldn't want to be treated. And when the Christian scientists says it or the Jehovah's Witness says it on religious grounds, people don't rally up and say they have to be treated.
LIN: No. But at the same time, you know, how do you argue in a public manner that, you know, when the family goes to the microphones and says she's being starved to death, there is no -- I mean, you know, the doctors will say, no, it's artificial hydration and nutrition. You know, this is a woman who's not present. But those are loaded words that this woman was starved to death.
CAPLAN: Absolutely.
LIN: And as far as a certain constituency is concerned, that is the reason why Terri Schiavo died.
CAPLAN: Well, you know, you asked me earlier, Carol, big-picture issues about this case. We have a hard time as Americans accepting death. We just do.
We believe in our technology. We believe in our feeding tubes. Everybody -- every one of us will die without air, without somebody trying CPR on us. We will all, in a sense, not get a feeding tube at some point. Everybody, in a sense, has to die around technology.
And it's very difficult for many of us to accept the idea that some people die without breathing, some people die from poisons building up in their bodies because their kidneys stop. Some people die of dehydration. Some people die without food. But that is, in fact, how we die.
LIN: And I think, frankly, we've learned a lot about our comfort level with the notion of death. Arthur Caplan, thank you very much.
CAPLAN: Thanks very much.
LIN: Miles.
O'BRIEN: Well, as Carol and Arthur Caplan just mentioned, the Vatican has weighed in on this issue in no uncertain terms and language that many people would view as pejorative. One cardinal saying Terri Schiavo's death is nothing short of murder.
CNN's Alessio Vincin in Rome with more from Cardinal Renato Martino and others there at the Vatican -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Miles.
Yes, there's a mixture of sadness, anger and somewhat disappointment here at the Vatican tonight. A top cardinal telling us that Pope John Paul II was immediately informed of the death of Terri Schiavo, and the Vatican press office issued moments early its own statement, saying that the death of Terri Schiavo was arbitrarily anticipated because feeding a person through a tube does not constitute aggressive therapy.
The statement also goes on as saying that, "No exceptions can be allowed the sacredness of life which is intended from its conception to its natural end." And finally, the Vatican statement saying that this is nothing -- that this is not only a principle of Christian ethics, but also a principle of human civilization.
Now, meanwhile, Cardinal Renato Martino, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace spokes to us earlier today, and he went even a step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL RENATO MARTINO, VATICAN PONTIFICAL COUNCIL: When you deprive someone of food and water, what is -- what is -- what else is more than -- nothing else than murder. (END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: Now, Cardinal Martino, who has been in the past a critic, an outspoken critic of U.S. President George W. Bush, especially as to the -- his policies in Iraq tonight, he praised the president for trying to Terri Schiavo's life. But then Cardinal Martino also said that her ordeal clearly indicates the weakness of the judicial system in preserving life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINO: But if there are laws that protect the life of animals and not to give excruciating suffering to animals, why -- that law should not be applied to another animal, a human animal, like Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: The Vatican, meanwhile, hopes that Terri Schiavo's experience could help bring greater awareness among public opinion about the true meaning of life.
Miles, back to you.
O'BRIEN: Alessio, the cardinal is speaking there with great certainty there, and talking about excruciating suffering, which, of course, is a debatable point. But what's also debatable is what the real church teachings are here, what the Canon Law says, does, in fact, belie what the pope said in a speech a year ago. Is there any feeling inside the Vatican of that side of it, that maybe the Catholic teachings are not as clear-cut as it may seem here?
VINCI: Well, you know, the Catholic teachings, who not only date back to one year ago, but even 10 years ago, if not further back, obviously have been having a hard time keeping up with improvements of modern medicine. But on the one issue, the Catholic Church is clear. And that is, that unless a person is brain dead, completely no -- whatsoever -- no sign whatsoever of life, then this person must be kept alive with all possible means, including medical means.
And that artificially feeding a person through a tube, whether it's inserted through the nose, as it is the case of the pope tonight, or as Terri Schiavo, which I understand required a little bit of surgery, that does not constitute aggressive therapy. And therefore, there is a moral duty among the doctors to keep the person alive. And that is the one issue where the Vatican is extremely clear on this issue.
On the other side, the Vatican says that -- and the teachings of the Catholic Church says that the Vatican is not necessarily against preserving or in favor of preserving life at any cost, especially if preserving life through medical means prolongs the agony of the patient. In that case, obviously, the Vatican says that person should be let die of a natural death, if you want -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. So there is still some interpretation that is allowed within that context. Alessio Vinci in Rome, thank you very much -- Carol.
LIN: Well, Florida governor Jeb Bush is offering his condolences, and he says the debate could help others deal with end of life issues. Governor Bush stepped into the Schiavo case a number of times. And CNN's Ed Henry is live in Washington.
Ed, I mean, stepping in -- I mean, he virtually -- a whole law was built around him injecting himself into this case and getting Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted the last go-round. So what more did the governor have to say about her passing today?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, there had been a lot of political pressure in recent days for the governor to do much more than he had already done. A lot of people, specifically conservatives in Florida, were pressing him to try to step in, take state custody of Terri Schiavo and reinsert that feeding tube.
He said again today that he has sadness in his heart over this case. But he said his hands were tied, he could do nothing more legally. And you could tell just by looking at him that this case is still weighing on the governor very much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: You know, I think now is the time to -- really to pay tribute to Terri Schiavo and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted. And, you know, there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this for, you know, a lot of different things to be discussed. But I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, and I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, in a written statement earlier today, the governor kicked up a little bit of a controversy because he only referred and expressed his condolences to the Schindler side of the family, the parents and siblings of Terri Schiavo. He made no mention of Michael Schiavo. And when CNN called his press office to get more information about that and press him on the matter, the governor's press secretary said that the governor was focusing on the biological family and then hung up the phone.
So obviously, you can tell the divide over both sides of the family still going on in the governor's own statement. As well, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay kicking up a controversy today in his own written statement, expressing condolences on the death of Terri Schiavo, but specifically pinning the blame on the U.S. legal system and saying, "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior." That from Tom DeLay.
I can tell you, Democrats on Capitol Hill behind me here in Washington are already pouncing on it, saying they think this is threatening to state and federal judges who had issued rulings in this case. The congressman's press secretary, Dan Allen, told CNN that he believes the congressman was just disappointed about the fact that various judges did not follow the intent of that emergency legislation that Congress passed. When pressed on it, the congressman's spokesman said, in fact, later this hour Mr. DeLay will have more to say -- Carol.
LIN: You bet. In fact, we're hoping to hear from him in about 10 minutes at a news conference. Thanks very much, Ed -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now.
And I want to pick up one point. We just heard from the Vatican. "Excruciating suffering" was the term that the cardinal used in referring to the way Terri Schiavo died. And I just think it's important every time something like that is stated to remind our viewers that that is not a statement of fact. There is some interpretation in that.
Let's talk about what the medical facts are here.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, first of all, we don't know. And that's because Terri Schiavo couldn't tell us. And I think people understand that.
But there have been studies done on this sort of thing, specifically in patients with terminal cancer, for example, who are at the end of their lives, who do have their feeding tubes removed, and are able to communicate. And that's where these statements come from that you've been hearing from some of the doctors, some of the end-of- life doctors, talking specifically about the fact that the sort of signs of hunger and thirst, those sorts of symptoms actually aren't present.
One of the end-of-life specialists I talked to, Miles, actually said some patients describe a sense of euphoria. Now, again, with Terri Schiavo, we don't know, but there have been studies -- scientific studies done on this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things he made in that context, he was talking about how we treat animals better.
GUPTA: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, think for a moment about how we treat animals. We euthanize animals. That's not what he's suggesting obviously.
GUPTA: Yes. And I was struck by the same thing.
I mean, we treat animals better. We should treat another animal, human beings, the same way, he said. Yes, euthanasia is very well accepted in animals, dogs and cats, but I think everyone pretty much agrees -- well, I shouldn't say that, but a lot of people agree that euthanasia in humans is a slippery slope and something that we have to be very careful about. I can't imagine that in any way he was advocating that. O'BRIEN: Of course, there is a strong faction out there that would say under certain circumstances hastening one's own death is appropriate and is a humane thing. But that's a whole other argument we could get into and we could spend a lot of time on that one.
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about living wills for a minute. Do you have a living will?
GUPTA: I do a living well.
O'BRIEN: And do you update it? Check it? Do you tell people about it as we're told to?
I think that's one of the important things we're learning here. Just having that document, stuffing it in a drawer, putting it in a safe-deposit box may not be enough.
GUPTA: I'm sort of guilty on that count. I haven't really updated it. I did it when I became a doctor. And a lot of us did at that time.
It's interesting. You know, as part of the living will, a term that you won't hear typically in there is "persistent vegetative state." Living wills aren't so focused on terms like we have been over the last couple weeks.
They're not going to say, well, if I'm in a persistent vegetative state versus a minimally conscious state, do X versus Y. What they really want to know is, when you are unable to care for yourself, when your prognosis is so poor and you can no longer make decisions, what's going to happen to you? That's what they want to sort of get at.
And, you know, we focus so much on the persistent vegetative state with Terri Schiavo versus minimally conscious. That doesn't come up in most living wills.
O'BRIEN: But shouldn't they be specific, as specific as you can be, to lay out instances so that there isn't this confusion, debate, interpretation of that document or of those wishes?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not sure you can ever fully do that.
I mean, you've seen neurologists, board-certified neurologists, examining her. We saw some of these tapes for the first time, Miles, today. Some of these exams, doctors' exams that we've been talking so much about, we witnessed them. Doctors conducting almost the same exam and having almost diametrically opposed opinion on her status and potential recovery.
So, you're right, there's always going to be some degree of confusion. But, you know, as a neurosurgeon, I'll say this, that I think most patients' families sort of get this when you talk to them. It's really the legal system and stories like this that sort of force absolutes where absolutes just aren't present. Most people understand when you say, listen, this is a very serious thing, we don't think they're ever going to be back to where they were before, here's where we think they are, they don't get so hung up on the terms, at least not most parents.
O'BRIEN: And it happens every day we should remind people.
GUPTA: Ten thousand to 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state right now.
O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Carol.
LIN: All right. We are just moments away from an expected news conference by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, from his office in Florida. We are going to take you there for a preview. We want to hear what Michael Schiavo's side has to say.
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LIN: Well, a short time from now -- in fact, moments from now -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney. George Felos is to address reporters at his office in Dunedin, Florida. And that's where we find CNN's Randi Kaye, standing by there right now waiting for the attorney's appearance.
Randi, so far there have been lots of characterizations by the supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents about the last moments of Terri Schiavo's life and who was allowed in the room or not. We're anxious to hear from the attorney here.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are anxious to ask him that question, exactly how those final hours and final minutes were spent in Terri Schiavo's hospice room. We understand that the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, were not in there. Her brother and sister were not in there.
We're going to ask him exactly why. Because we had been told in recent days that he and the Schindlers and their attorney were going to try and work out an agreement for both sides to be with Terri during her final minutes. Apparently that did not happen.
We are expected to hear from him in just a few moments from now. We have not heard from Michael Schiavo today. In fact, we haven't heard from Michael Schiavo in quite some time now. He's remained very private during the final days of Terri Schiavo's life.
There are about 20 or so cameras here, waiting to see him. There's also some pretty heavy security.
In recent days, apparently George Felos has been getting some threats here at his office in Dunedin, Florida. Threats from all across the world, apparently, calling him a murderer and making death threats here.
So there has been some pretty heavy security here. Sheriff's deputies all across the area right now.
So we do have a lot of questions for him about the planned cremation of Terri Schiavo. We have some questions for him about the planned autopsy which is taking place today. And also about those final minutes in Terri Schiavo's hospice room -- Carol.
LIN: Randi, do you expect also that George Felos is going to be talking about the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo, why Michael Schiavo has made that decision and whether there will be any sort of dispute by Terri Schiavo's parents?
KAYE: We haven't heard yet that there will be any type of dispute. He did talk about the autopsy.
The way it was sort of explained to us, he made it sound as if it was Michael Schiavo's suggestion. But apparently this was something that was already planned by the coroner, by the medical examiner.
So Michael Schiavo apparently agreed to it, we were told. And we do hope to get more details from him about this.
This really has been, for both sides, a very emotional time, Carol. George Felos just shared with us over the weekend that he once was a hospice volunteer. And so he has seen people go through this and families be torn apart by this. And he will still describe, I would expect today, Terri Schiavo's final hours and final days as peaceful, comfortable, and exactly what Terri Schiavo had wanted and how she wanted to end her life.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Randi Kaye, standing by there.
Any moment now expecting to cover that news conference -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Of course we'll bring it to you when it happens. Michael Schiavo attorney George Felos coming momentarily. We'll also look at how other families dealt with a dying loved one when LIVE FROM continues.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 31, 2005 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: It's heartbreaking, to be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF JODI CENTONZE: It's sad. It's really sad. But, you know, I'm happy for Terri.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Reaction to the death of Terri Schiavo. The brain-damaged woman at the center of a family dispute and a national debate.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: In a few minutes, we are expecting a news conference from the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, and we are going to bring it to you when it happens.
From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin, in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now.
It's intensely private and public. It brings together and divides. Relatives and friends, advocates and proxies melding sorrow with lingering bitterness. It's the death of Terri Schiavo, born Theresa Marie Schindler 41 years ago December, but it also describes her final years, and especially her final 13 days.
We begin this hour's coverage with CNN's Bob Franken, who has been in Pinellas Park now for the final chapter of Terri Schiavo's life.
And Bob, just set the scene for us right there now. Obviously, this has been a focus of demonstration for quite some time now. What's it been like over the past few hours?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there have been some outbursts, individual outbursts, but for the most part subdued. Of course, as we know, this is not the final chapter in the story of this war within the family. There is an autopsy that is going on right now. Following that autopsy, if the wishes of the -- Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael, are followed, the remains will be cremated and then transported to Pennsylvania, where there will be burial. The family is adamantly opposed to that, saying that that violates Catholic doctrine, that Terri was Catholic, and they are Catholic. They would prefer a burial of the entire remains here.
So this is not over yet, regrettably.
O'BRIEN: And you say the mood subdued. I noted -- and you spoke about it yesterday -- that as this kind of rose to a crescendo, so did the security and the apparent concerns of the authorities. A few skirmishes here and there. But in the end, nothing really of any level of violence to take note of.
FRANKEN: No, no. The police were just taking no chances.
They got a bomb scare, as we discussed, the day before yesterday. And as a result, they initiated some more significant security at the entrance points of the roads here. You had to stop and have your car searched.
They also had -- and it was something that we were aware of, but we're not particularly ready to report -- they had a sniper located on one of the roofs, just in case. Obviously, what they wanted to do was over-prepare on the ground, for the most part.
The police officers tried to be as polite and detached as they could, and were able to pull it off. In fact, the Pinellas Park Police Department has gotten quite a bit of praise for the way that it conducted itself.
O'BRIEN: Yes. I think they handled it pretty well.
One thing that has struck me throughout this, Bob -- and maybe you can comment on this a little bit -- is how really the group out there is pretty one-dimensional, all on one side of this, representing the Schindler family, Terri's parents, and not so much Michael Schiavo's faction, if you will. Why not?
FRANKEN: Well, the ones who really felt most passionately about this were the people who have been associated with the so-called right to life movement, the ones who are very heavily into the religions that have made this so much a part of their doctrine. And they were the ones who were out here, ranging from some of the more fundamentalist religions who -- a large contingent of Roman Catholics.
They were combined with people from the anti-abortion movement. They were all here.
Every once in a while, somebody who supported Michael Schiavo, or who opposed interfering in the death of Terri Schiavo, would be here. Sometimes he would be engaged in an argument, sometimes he was just ignored. But, you're right, it was almost all exclusively the family. And the family, by the way, headquartered here also. And so we saw all them while Michael Schiavo decided that he wanted to be with as low visibility as possible.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken still there in Pinellas Park. Thank you for your insights -- Carol.
O'BRIEN: Miles, later this hour -- in fact, in about 25 minutes -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. A news conference is scheduled for 2:30 p.m. Eastern, 11:30 a.m. Pacific, and you are going to see it live right here on CNN.
We're also planning on bringing you a news conference with House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who has been critical of Terri Schiavo's death. And he's got some pretty heated words to say as well on this matter. He led the fight in Congress to change some laws.
In the meantime, Terri Schiavo's last days and frankly the manner in which she died have raised questions about life and death and medical ethics. So joining me now to talk about these issues is Arthur Caplan. He is the director for the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Art, you've had a lot to say in the last 13 days about that. But -- about this whole situation. But in the end, what do you think we have learned from this Terri Schiavo case?
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you know, Carol, we learned a couple things. One is that Americans are pretty religious people. They also love their medicine and science. And the two make a very potent mixture.
On one side, there are religious people, strange as it may seem, who say you've got to use medicine to the hilt. On the other side, there are people trying to say, but wait, that's why we put switches on our medical technology. We can shut them off, we can take them away. That combustible mixture of religion and medical technology really played itself out in this case.
Two other quick points. This is a clash of two goods. You kind of lose it in all the rhetoric and accusations.
But on the one side, pro-life. And life is a great value and one that medicine has to respect and pursue, obviously. On the other side, liberty, the right to say no, the right to control what happens to you. Those are really just coming into direct conflict in this matter.
The third issue, we learned a little bit, I hope, about the importance of conversation about these things. Terri Schiavo gave us a small gift. She said, you'd better talk with your loved ones. It's important to write down who you'd want to make decisions for you.
So I hope all of us do take that step. I'm afraid some of us won't, but it is an important thing to do, to say, here's who speaks for me.
LIN: What do you make of the remarks coming out of the Vatican today, of Vatican cardinals saying that her death is a crime against god? He goes on to call it -- that it's nothing else but murder, a victory of the culture of death over life. Do you think those remarks are helpful?
CAPLAN: I don't. I know that the Vatican has been very strong on this, and the teaching has been coming out really for more than a year. Feeding tubes is ordinary, you've got to preserve life, the pope himself is showing us through his struggles with Parkinson's and his getting a feeding tube, the church position.
But I don't think the right way to phrase these things is "murder," "killing." To me, what we're seeing is allowing someone to control what they would want, allowing someone to have what they would want.
LIN: Yes, but that's a big question. That's a big question because, you know, it's not -- it turns out, through all of this, frankly it's not even enough to have a written will.
CAPLAN: Well, probably not. For some it wouldn't be enough. They would say you could never stop.
LIN: But apparently you've got to keep having these public conversations with people. Because let's say you write a living will when you're 20. Someone could make the argument, oh, you're only 20, what do you know then?
CAPLAN: Right. And you don't update it for five years and can we trust it?
LIN: Right.
CAPLAN: I'll come back and say this, look, if -- I understand the Catholic position on this. It's very clear what the Vatican teachings are. But if you're going to use terms like "murder" and "killing" and "euthanasia," that implies involuntariness. That implies someone doing to someone else, a homicide.
What we have here at least is -- the rationale is, that's what she would want. She wouldn't want to be treated. And when the Christian scientists says it or the Jehovah's Witness says it on religious grounds, people don't rally up and say they have to be treated.
LIN: No. But at the same time, you know, how do you argue in a public manner that, you know, when the family goes to the microphones and says she's being starved to death, there is no -- I mean, you know, the doctors will say, no, it's artificial hydration and nutrition. You know, this is a woman who's not present. But those are loaded words that this woman was starved to death.
CAPLAN: Absolutely.
LIN: And as far as a certain constituency is concerned, that is the reason why Terri Schiavo died.
CAPLAN: Well, you know, you asked me earlier, Carol, big-picture issues about this case. We have a hard time as Americans accepting death. We just do.
We believe in our technology. We believe in our feeding tubes. Everybody -- every one of us will die without air, without somebody trying CPR on us. We will all, in a sense, not get a feeding tube at some point. Everybody, in a sense, has to die around technology.
And it's very difficult for many of us to accept the idea that some people die without breathing, some people die from poisons building up in their bodies because their kidneys stop. Some people die of dehydration. Some people die without food. But that is, in fact, how we die.
LIN: And I think, frankly, we've learned a lot about our comfort level with the notion of death. Arthur Caplan, thank you very much.
CAPLAN: Thanks very much.
LIN: Miles.
O'BRIEN: Well, as Carol and Arthur Caplan just mentioned, the Vatican has weighed in on this issue in no uncertain terms and language that many people would view as pejorative. One cardinal saying Terri Schiavo's death is nothing short of murder.
CNN's Alessio Vincin in Rome with more from Cardinal Renato Martino and others there at the Vatican -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Miles.
Yes, there's a mixture of sadness, anger and somewhat disappointment here at the Vatican tonight. A top cardinal telling us that Pope John Paul II was immediately informed of the death of Terri Schiavo, and the Vatican press office issued moments early its own statement, saying that the death of Terri Schiavo was arbitrarily anticipated because feeding a person through a tube does not constitute aggressive therapy.
The statement also goes on as saying that, "No exceptions can be allowed the sacredness of life which is intended from its conception to its natural end." And finally, the Vatican statement saying that this is nothing -- that this is not only a principle of Christian ethics, but also a principle of human civilization.
Now, meanwhile, Cardinal Renato Martino, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace spokes to us earlier today, and he went even a step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL RENATO MARTINO, VATICAN PONTIFICAL COUNCIL: When you deprive someone of food and water, what is -- what is -- what else is more than -- nothing else than murder. (END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: Now, Cardinal Martino, who has been in the past a critic, an outspoken critic of U.S. President George W. Bush, especially as to the -- his policies in Iraq tonight, he praised the president for trying to Terri Schiavo's life. But then Cardinal Martino also said that her ordeal clearly indicates the weakness of the judicial system in preserving life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINO: But if there are laws that protect the life of animals and not to give excruciating suffering to animals, why -- that law should not be applied to another animal, a human animal, like Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: The Vatican, meanwhile, hopes that Terri Schiavo's experience could help bring greater awareness among public opinion about the true meaning of life.
Miles, back to you.
O'BRIEN: Alessio, the cardinal is speaking there with great certainty there, and talking about excruciating suffering, which, of course, is a debatable point. But what's also debatable is what the real church teachings are here, what the Canon Law says, does, in fact, belie what the pope said in a speech a year ago. Is there any feeling inside the Vatican of that side of it, that maybe the Catholic teachings are not as clear-cut as it may seem here?
VINCI: Well, you know, the Catholic teachings, who not only date back to one year ago, but even 10 years ago, if not further back, obviously have been having a hard time keeping up with improvements of modern medicine. But on the one issue, the Catholic Church is clear. And that is, that unless a person is brain dead, completely no -- whatsoever -- no sign whatsoever of life, then this person must be kept alive with all possible means, including medical means.
And that artificially feeding a person through a tube, whether it's inserted through the nose, as it is the case of the pope tonight, or as Terri Schiavo, which I understand required a little bit of surgery, that does not constitute aggressive therapy. And therefore, there is a moral duty among the doctors to keep the person alive. And that is the one issue where the Vatican is extremely clear on this issue.
On the other side, the Vatican says that -- and the teachings of the Catholic Church says that the Vatican is not necessarily against preserving or in favor of preserving life at any cost, especially if preserving life through medical means prolongs the agony of the patient. In that case, obviously, the Vatican says that person should be let die of a natural death, if you want -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. So there is still some interpretation that is allowed within that context. Alessio Vinci in Rome, thank you very much -- Carol.
LIN: Well, Florida governor Jeb Bush is offering his condolences, and he says the debate could help others deal with end of life issues. Governor Bush stepped into the Schiavo case a number of times. And CNN's Ed Henry is live in Washington.
Ed, I mean, stepping in -- I mean, he virtually -- a whole law was built around him injecting himself into this case and getting Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted the last go-round. So what more did the governor have to say about her passing today?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, there had been a lot of political pressure in recent days for the governor to do much more than he had already done. A lot of people, specifically conservatives in Florida, were pressing him to try to step in, take state custody of Terri Schiavo and reinsert that feeding tube.
He said again today that he has sadness in his heart over this case. But he said his hands were tied, he could do nothing more legally. And you could tell just by looking at him that this case is still weighing on the governor very much.
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BUSH: You know, I think now is the time to -- really to pay tribute to Terri Schiavo and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted. And, you know, there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this for, you know, a lot of different things to be discussed. But I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, and I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, in a written statement earlier today, the governor kicked up a little bit of a controversy because he only referred and expressed his condolences to the Schindler side of the family, the parents and siblings of Terri Schiavo. He made no mention of Michael Schiavo. And when CNN called his press office to get more information about that and press him on the matter, the governor's press secretary said that the governor was focusing on the biological family and then hung up the phone.
So obviously, you can tell the divide over both sides of the family still going on in the governor's own statement. As well, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay kicking up a controversy today in his own written statement, expressing condolences on the death of Terri Schiavo, but specifically pinning the blame on the U.S. legal system and saying, "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior." That from Tom DeLay.
I can tell you, Democrats on Capitol Hill behind me here in Washington are already pouncing on it, saying they think this is threatening to state and federal judges who had issued rulings in this case. The congressman's press secretary, Dan Allen, told CNN that he believes the congressman was just disappointed about the fact that various judges did not follow the intent of that emergency legislation that Congress passed. When pressed on it, the congressman's spokesman said, in fact, later this hour Mr. DeLay will have more to say -- Carol.
LIN: You bet. In fact, we're hoping to hear from him in about 10 minutes at a news conference. Thanks very much, Ed -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now.
And I want to pick up one point. We just heard from the Vatican. "Excruciating suffering" was the term that the cardinal used in referring to the way Terri Schiavo died. And I just think it's important every time something like that is stated to remind our viewers that that is not a statement of fact. There is some interpretation in that.
Let's talk about what the medical facts are here.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, first of all, we don't know. And that's because Terri Schiavo couldn't tell us. And I think people understand that.
But there have been studies done on this sort of thing, specifically in patients with terminal cancer, for example, who are at the end of their lives, who do have their feeding tubes removed, and are able to communicate. And that's where these statements come from that you've been hearing from some of the doctors, some of the end-of- life doctors, talking specifically about the fact that the sort of signs of hunger and thirst, those sorts of symptoms actually aren't present.
One of the end-of-life specialists I talked to, Miles, actually said some patients describe a sense of euphoria. Now, again, with Terri Schiavo, we don't know, but there have been studies -- scientific studies done on this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things he made in that context, he was talking about how we treat animals better.
GUPTA: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, think for a moment about how we treat animals. We euthanize animals. That's not what he's suggesting obviously.
GUPTA: Yes. And I was struck by the same thing.
I mean, we treat animals better. We should treat another animal, human beings, the same way, he said. Yes, euthanasia is very well accepted in animals, dogs and cats, but I think everyone pretty much agrees -- well, I shouldn't say that, but a lot of people agree that euthanasia in humans is a slippery slope and something that we have to be very careful about. I can't imagine that in any way he was advocating that. O'BRIEN: Of course, there is a strong faction out there that would say under certain circumstances hastening one's own death is appropriate and is a humane thing. But that's a whole other argument we could get into and we could spend a lot of time on that one.
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about living wills for a minute. Do you have a living will?
GUPTA: I do a living well.
O'BRIEN: And do you update it? Check it? Do you tell people about it as we're told to?
I think that's one of the important things we're learning here. Just having that document, stuffing it in a drawer, putting it in a safe-deposit box may not be enough.
GUPTA: I'm sort of guilty on that count. I haven't really updated it. I did it when I became a doctor. And a lot of us did at that time.
It's interesting. You know, as part of the living will, a term that you won't hear typically in there is "persistent vegetative state." Living wills aren't so focused on terms like we have been over the last couple weeks.
They're not going to say, well, if I'm in a persistent vegetative state versus a minimally conscious state, do X versus Y. What they really want to know is, when you are unable to care for yourself, when your prognosis is so poor and you can no longer make decisions, what's going to happen to you? That's what they want to sort of get at.
And, you know, we focus so much on the persistent vegetative state with Terri Schiavo versus minimally conscious. That doesn't come up in most living wills.
O'BRIEN: But shouldn't they be specific, as specific as you can be, to lay out instances so that there isn't this confusion, debate, interpretation of that document or of those wishes?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not sure you can ever fully do that.
I mean, you've seen neurologists, board-certified neurologists, examining her. We saw some of these tapes for the first time, Miles, today. Some of these exams, doctors' exams that we've been talking so much about, we witnessed them. Doctors conducting almost the same exam and having almost diametrically opposed opinion on her status and potential recovery.
So, you're right, there's always going to be some degree of confusion. But, you know, as a neurosurgeon, I'll say this, that I think most patients' families sort of get this when you talk to them. It's really the legal system and stories like this that sort of force absolutes where absolutes just aren't present. Most people understand when you say, listen, this is a very serious thing, we don't think they're ever going to be back to where they were before, here's where we think they are, they don't get so hung up on the terms, at least not most parents.
O'BRIEN: And it happens every day we should remind people.
GUPTA: Ten thousand to 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state right now.
O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Carol.
LIN: All right. We are just moments away from an expected news conference by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, from his office in Florida. We are going to take you there for a preview. We want to hear what Michael Schiavo's side has to say.
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LIN: Well, a short time from now -- in fact, moments from now -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney. George Felos is to address reporters at his office in Dunedin, Florida. And that's where we find CNN's Randi Kaye, standing by there right now waiting for the attorney's appearance.
Randi, so far there have been lots of characterizations by the supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents about the last moments of Terri Schiavo's life and who was allowed in the room or not. We're anxious to hear from the attorney here.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are anxious to ask him that question, exactly how those final hours and final minutes were spent in Terri Schiavo's hospice room. We understand that the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, were not in there. Her brother and sister were not in there.
We're going to ask him exactly why. Because we had been told in recent days that he and the Schindlers and their attorney were going to try and work out an agreement for both sides to be with Terri during her final minutes. Apparently that did not happen.
We are expected to hear from him in just a few moments from now. We have not heard from Michael Schiavo today. In fact, we haven't heard from Michael Schiavo in quite some time now. He's remained very private during the final days of Terri Schiavo's life.
There are about 20 or so cameras here, waiting to see him. There's also some pretty heavy security.
In recent days, apparently George Felos has been getting some threats here at his office in Dunedin, Florida. Threats from all across the world, apparently, calling him a murderer and making death threats here.
So there has been some pretty heavy security here. Sheriff's deputies all across the area right now.
So we do have a lot of questions for him about the planned cremation of Terri Schiavo. We have some questions for him about the planned autopsy which is taking place today. And also about those final minutes in Terri Schiavo's hospice room -- Carol.
LIN: Randi, do you expect also that George Felos is going to be talking about the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo, why Michael Schiavo has made that decision and whether there will be any sort of dispute by Terri Schiavo's parents?
KAYE: We haven't heard yet that there will be any type of dispute. He did talk about the autopsy.
The way it was sort of explained to us, he made it sound as if it was Michael Schiavo's suggestion. But apparently this was something that was already planned by the coroner, by the medical examiner.
So Michael Schiavo apparently agreed to it, we were told. And we do hope to get more details from him about this.
This really has been, for both sides, a very emotional time, Carol. George Felos just shared with us over the weekend that he once was a hospice volunteer. And so he has seen people go through this and families be torn apart by this. And he will still describe, I would expect today, Terri Schiavo's final hours and final days as peaceful, comfortable, and exactly what Terri Schiavo had wanted and how she wanted to end her life.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Randi Kaye, standing by there.
Any moment now expecting to cover that news conference -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Of course we'll bring it to you when it happens. Michael Schiavo attorney George Felos coming momentarily. We'll also look at how other families dealt with a dying loved one when LIVE FROM continues.
Stay with us.
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TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: It's heartbreaking, to be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF JODI CENTONZE: It's sad. It's really sad. But, you know, I'm happy for Terri.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Reaction to the death of Terri Schiavo. The brain-damaged woman at the center of a family dispute and a national debate.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: In a few minutes, we are expecting a news conference from the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, and we are going to bring it to you when it happens.
From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin, in for Kyra Phillips.
O'BRIEN: And I'm Miles O'Brien. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now.
It's intensely private and public. It brings together and divides. Relatives and friends, advocates and proxies melding sorrow with lingering bitterness. It's the death of Terri Schiavo, born Theresa Marie Schindler 41 years ago December, but it also describes her final years, and especially her final 13 days.
We begin this hour's coverage with CNN's Bob Franken, who has been in Pinellas Park now for the final chapter of Terri Schiavo's life.
And Bob, just set the scene for us right there now. Obviously, this has been a focus of demonstration for quite some time now. What's it been like over the past few hours?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there have been some outbursts, individual outbursts, but for the most part subdued. Of course, as we know, this is not the final chapter in the story of this war within the family.
There is an autopsy that is going on right now. Following that autopsy, if the wishes of the -- Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael, are followed, the remains will be cremated and then transported to Pennsylvania, where there will be burial. The family is adamantly opposed to that, saying that that violates Catholic doctrine, that Terri was Catholic, and they are Catholic. They would prefer a burial of the entire remains here.
So this is not over yet, regrettably.
O'BRIEN: And you say the mood subdued. I noted -- and you spoke about it yesterday -- that as this kind of rose to a crescendo, so did the security and the apparent concerns of the authorities. A few skirmishes here and there. But in the end, nothing really of any level of violence to take note of.
FRANKEN: No, no. The police were just taking no chances.
They got a bomb scare, as we discussed, the day before yesterday. And as a result, they initiated some more significant security at the entrance points of the roads here. You had to stop and have your car searched.
They also had -- and it was something that we were aware of, but we're not particularly ready to report -- they had a sniper located on one of the roofs, just in case. Obviously, what they wanted to do was over-prepare on the ground, for the most part.
The police officers tried to be as polite and detached as they could, and were able to pull it off. In fact, the Pinellas Park Police Department has gotten quite a bit of praise for the way that it conducted itself.
O'BRIEN: Yes. I think they handled it pretty well.
One thing that has struck me throughout this, Bob -- and maybe you can comment on this a little bit -- is how really the group out there is pretty one-dimensional, all on one side of this, representing the Schindler family, Terri's parents, and not so much Michael Schiavo's faction, if you will. Why not?
FRANKEN: Well, the ones who really felt most passionately about this were the people who have been associated with the so-called right to life movement, the ones who are very heavily into the religions that have made this so much a part of their doctrine. And they were the ones who were out here, ranging from some of the more fundamentalist religions who -- a large contingent of Roman Catholics.
They were combined with people from the anti-abortion movement. They were all here.
Every once in a while, somebody who supported Michael Schiavo, or who opposed interfering in the death of Terri Schiavo, would be here. Sometimes he would be engaged in an argument, sometimes he was just ignored.
But, you're right, it was almost all exclusively the family. And the family, by the way, headquartered here also. And so we saw all them while Michael Schiavo decided that he wanted to be with as low visibility as possible.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken still there in Pinellas Park. Thank you for your insights -- Carol.
O'BRIEN: Miles, later this hour -- in fact, in about 25 minutes -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. A news conference is scheduled for 2:30 p.m. Eastern, 11:30 a.m. Pacific, and you are going to see it live right here on CNN.
We're also planning on bringing you a news conference with House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who has been critical of Terri Schiavo's death. And he's got some pretty heated words to say as well on this matter. He led the fight in Congress to change some laws.
In the meantime, Terri Schiavo's last days and frankly the manner in which she died have raised questions about life and death and medical ethics. So joining me now to talk about these issues is Arthur Caplan. He is the director for the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Art, you've had a lot to say in the last 13 days about that. But -- about this whole situation. But in the end, what do you think we have learned from this Terri Schiavo case?
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you know, Carol, we learned a couple things. One is that Americans are pretty religious people. They also love their medicine and science. And the two make a very potent mixture.
On one side, there are religious people, strange as it may seem, who say you've got to use medicine to the hilt. On the other side, there are people trying to say, but wait, that's why we put switches on our medical technology. We can shut them off, we can take them away. That combustible mixture of religion and medical technology really played itself out in this case.
Two other quick points. This is a clash of two goods. You kind of lose it in all the rhetoric and accusations.
But on the one side, pro-life. And life is a great value and one that medicine has to respect and pursue, obviously. On the other side, liberty, the right to say no, the right to control what happens to you. Those are really just coming into direct conflict in this matter.
The third issue, we learned a little bit, I hope, about the importance of conversation about these things. Terri Schiavo gave us a small gift. She said, you'd better talk with your loved ones. It's important to write down who you'd want to make decisions for you.
So I hope all of us do take that step. I'm afraid some of us won't, but it is an important thing to do, to say, here's who speaks for me.
LIN: What do you make of the remarks coming out of the Vatican today, of Vatican cardinals saying that her death is a crime against god? He goes on to call it -- that it's nothing else but murder, a victory of the culture of death over life. Do you think those remarks are helpful?
CAPLAN: I don't. I know that the Vatican has been very strong on this, and the teaching has been coming out really for more than a year. Feeding tubes is ordinary, you've got to preserve life, the pope himself is showing us through his struggles with Parkinson's and his getting a feeding tube, the church position.
But I don't think the right way to phrase these things is "murder," "killing." To me, what we're seeing is allowing someone to control what they would want, allowing someone to have what they would want.
LIN: Yes, but that's a big question. That's a big question because, you know, it's not -- it turns out, through all of this, frankly it's not even enough to have a written will.
CAPLAN: Well, probably not. For some it wouldn't be enough. They would say you could never stop.
LIN: But apparently you've got to keep having these public conversations with people. Because let's say you write a living will when you're 20. Someone could make the argument, oh, you're only 20, what do you know then?
CAPLAN: Right. And you don't update it for five years and can we trust it?
LIN: Right.
CAPLAN: I'll come back and say this, look, if -- I understand the Catholic position on this. It's very clear what the Vatican teachings are. But if you're going to use terms like "murder" and "killing" and "euthanasia," that implies involuntariness. That implies someone doing to someone else, a homicide.
What we have here at least is -- the rationale is, that's what she would want. She wouldn't want to be treated. And when the Christian scientists says it or the Jehovah's Witness says it on religious grounds, people don't rally up and say they have to be treated.
LIN: No. But at the same time, you know, how do you argue in a public manner that, you know, when the family goes to the microphones and says she's being starved to death, there is no -- I mean, you know, the doctors will say, no, it's artificial hydration and nutrition. You know, this is a woman who's not present. But those are loaded words that this woman was starved to death.
CAPLAN: Absolutely.
LIN: And as far as a certain constituency is concerned, that is the reason why Terri Schiavo died.
CAPLAN: Well, you know, you asked me earlier, Carol, big-picture issues about this case. We have a hard time as Americans accepting death. We just do.
We believe in our technology. We believe in our feeding tubes. Everybody -- every one of us will die without air, without somebody trying CPR on us. We will all, in a sense, not get a feeding tube at some point. Everybody, in a sense, has to die around technology.
And it's very difficult for many of us to accept the idea that some people die without breathing, some people die from poisons building up in their bodies because their kidneys stop. Some people die of dehydration. Some people die without food. But that is, in fact, how we die.
LIN: And I think, frankly, we've learned a lot about our comfort level with the notion of death. Arthur Caplan, thank you very much.
CAPLAN: Thanks very much.
LIN: Miles.
O'BRIEN: Well, as Carol and Arthur Caplan just mentioned, the Vatican has weighed in on this issue in no uncertain terms and language that many people would view as pejorative. One cardinal saying Terri Schiavo's death is nothing short of murder.
CNN's Alessio Vincin in Rome with more from Cardinal Renato Martino and others there at the Vatican -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Miles.
Yes, there's a mixture of sadness, anger and somewhat disappointment here at the Vatican tonight. A top cardinal telling us that Pope John Paul II was immediately informed of the death of Terri Schiavo, and the Vatican press office issued moments early its own statement, saying that the death of Terri Schiavo was arbitrarily anticipated because feeding a person through a tube does not constitute aggressive therapy.
The statement also goes on as saying that, "No exceptions can be allowed the sacredness of life which is intended from its conception to its natural end." And finally, the Vatican statement saying that this is nothing -- that this is not only a principle of Christian ethics, but also a principle of human civilization.
Now, meanwhile, Cardinal Renato Martino, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace spokes to us earlier today, and he went even a step further.
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CARDINAL RENATO MARTINO, VATICAN PONTIFICAL COUNCIL: When you deprive someone of food and water, what is -- what is -- what else is more than -- nothing else than murder. (END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: Now, Cardinal Martino, who has been in the past a critic, an outspoken critic of U.S. President George W. Bush, especially as to the -- his policies in Iraq tonight, he praised the president for trying to Terri Schiavo's life. But then Cardinal Martino also said that her ordeal clearly indicates the weakness of the judicial system in preserving life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINO: But if there are laws that protect the life of animals and not to give excruciating suffering to animals, why -- that law should not be applied to another animal, a human animal, like Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VINCI: The Vatican, meanwhile, hopes that Terri Schiavo's experience could help bring greater awareness among public opinion about the true meaning of life.
Miles, back to you.
O'BRIEN: Alessio, the cardinal is speaking there with great certainty there, and talking about excruciating suffering, which, of course, is a debatable point. But what's also debatable is what the real church teachings are here, what the Canon Law says, does, in fact, belie what the pope said in a speech a year ago. Is there any feeling inside the Vatican of that side of it, that maybe the Catholic teachings are not as clear-cut as it may seem here?
VINCI: Well, you know, the Catholic teachings, who not only date back to one year ago, but even 10 years ago, if not further back, obviously have been having a hard time keeping up with improvements of modern medicine. But on the one issue, the Catholic Church is clear. And that is, that unless a person is brain dead, completely no -- whatsoever -- no sign whatsoever of life, then this person must be kept alive with all possible means, including medical means.
And that artificially feeding a person through a tube, whether it's inserted through the nose, as it is the case of the pope tonight, or as Terri Schiavo, which I understand required a little bit of surgery, that does not constitute aggressive therapy. And therefore, there is a moral duty among the doctors to keep the person alive. And that is the one issue where the Vatican is extremely clear on this issue.
On the other side, the Vatican says that -- and the teachings of the Catholic Church says that the Vatican is not necessarily against preserving or in favor of preserving life at any cost, especially if preserving life through medical means prolongs the agony of the patient. In that case, obviously, the Vatican says that person should be let die of a natural death, if you want -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. So there is still some interpretation that is allowed within that context. Alessio Vinci in Rome, thank you very much -- Carol.
LIN: Well, Florida governor Jeb Bush is offering his condolences, and he says the debate could help others deal with end of life issues. Governor Bush stepped into the Schiavo case a number of times. And CNN's Ed Henry is live in Washington.
Ed, I mean, stepping in -- I mean, he virtually -- a whole law was built around him injecting himself into this case and getting Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted the last go-round. So what more did the governor have to say about her passing today?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, there had been a lot of political pressure in recent days for the governor to do much more than he had already done. A lot of people, specifically conservatives in Florida, were pressing him to try to step in, take state custody of Terri Schiavo and reinsert that feeding tube.
He said again today that he has sadness in his heart over this case. But he said his hands were tied, he could do nothing more legally. And you could tell just by looking at him that this case is still weighing on the governor very much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: You know, I think now is the time to -- really to pay tribute to Terri Schiavo and not relive the tragedy of a family that has been totally divided and disrupted. And, you know, there will be a chance for policymakers to look at the policy implications of this for, you know, a lot of different things to be discussed. But I honestly believe that today we should pray for Terri Schiavo. I know she's in a better place, and I know she suffered a lot, and it breaks my heart that that had to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, in a written statement earlier today, the governor kicked up a little bit of a controversy because he only referred and expressed his condolences to the Schindler side of the family, the parents and siblings of Terri Schiavo. He made no mention of Michael Schiavo. And when CNN called his press office to get more information about that and press him on the matter, the governor's press secretary said that the governor was focusing on the biological family and then hung up the phone.
So obviously, you can tell the divide over both sides of the family still going on in the governor's own statement. As well, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay kicking up a controversy today in his own written statement, expressing condolences on the death of Terri Schiavo, but specifically pinning the blame on the U.S. legal system and saying, "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior." That from Tom DeLay.
I can tell you, Democrats on Capitol Hill behind me here in Washington are already pouncing on it, saying they think this is threatening to state and federal judges who had issued rulings in this case. The congressman's press secretary, Dan Allen, told CNN that he believes the congressman was just disappointed about the fact that various judges did not follow the intent of that emergency legislation that Congress passed. When pressed on it, the congressman's spokesman said, in fact, later this hour Mr. DeLay will have more to say -- Carol.
LIN: You bet. In fact, we're hoping to hear from him in about 10 minutes at a news conference. Thanks very much, Ed -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now.
And I want to pick up one point. We just heard from the Vatican. "Excruciating suffering" was the term that the cardinal used in referring to the way Terri Schiavo died. And I just think it's important every time something like that is stated to remind our viewers that that is not a statement of fact. There is some interpretation in that.
Let's talk about what the medical facts are here.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, first of all, we don't know. And that's because Terri Schiavo couldn't tell us. And I think people understand that.
But there have been studies done on this sort of thing, specifically in patients with terminal cancer, for example, who are at the end of their lives, who do have their feeding tubes removed, and are able to communicate. And that's where these statements come from that you've been hearing from some of the doctors, some of the end-of- life doctors, talking specifically about the fact that the sort of signs of hunger and thirst, those sorts of symptoms actually aren't present.
One of the end-of-life specialists I talked to, Miles, actually said some patients describe a sense of euphoria. Now, again, with Terri Schiavo, we don't know, but there have been studies -- scientific studies done on this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Now, one of the other things he made in that context, he was talking about how we treat animals better.
GUPTA: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, think for a moment about how we treat animals. We euthanize animals. That's not what he's suggesting obviously.
GUPTA: Yes. And I was struck by the same thing.
I mean, we treat animals better. We should treat another animal, human beings, the same way, he said. Yes, euthanasia is very well accepted in animals, dogs and cats, but I think everyone pretty much agrees -- well, I shouldn't say that, but a lot of people agree that euthanasia in humans is a slippery slope and something that we have to be very careful about. I can't imagine that in any way he was advocating that. O'BRIEN: Of course, there is a strong faction out there that would say under certain circumstances hastening one's own death is appropriate and is a humane thing. But that's a whole other argument we could get into and we could spend a lot of time on that one.
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about living wills for a minute. Do you have a living will?
GUPTA: I do a living well.
O'BRIEN: And do you update it? Check it? Do you tell people about it as we're told to?
I think that's one of the important things we're learning here. Just having that document, stuffing it in a drawer, putting it in a safe-deposit box may not be enough.
GUPTA: I'm sort of guilty on that count. I haven't really updated it. I did it when I became a doctor. And a lot of us did at that time.
It's interesting. You know, as part of the living will, a term that you won't hear typically in there is "persistent vegetative state." Living wills aren't so focused on terms like we have been over the last couple weeks.
They're not going to say, well, if I'm in a persistent vegetative state versus a minimally conscious state, do X versus Y. What they really want to know is, when you are unable to care for yourself, when your prognosis is so poor and you can no longer make decisions, what's going to happen to you? That's what they want to sort of get at.
And, you know, we focus so much on the persistent vegetative state with Terri Schiavo versus minimally conscious. That doesn't come up in most living wills.
O'BRIEN: But shouldn't they be specific, as specific as you can be, to lay out instances so that there isn't this confusion, debate, interpretation of that document or of those wishes?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not sure you can ever fully do that.
I mean, you've seen neurologists, board-certified neurologists, examining her. We saw some of these tapes for the first time, Miles, today. Some of these exams, doctors' exams that we've been talking so much about, we witnessed them. Doctors conducting almost the same exam and having almost diametrically opposed opinion on her status and potential recovery.
So, you're right, there's always going to be some degree of confusion. But, you know, as a neurosurgeon, I'll say this, that I think most patients' families sort of get this when you talk to them. It's really the legal system and stories like this that sort of force absolutes where absolutes just aren't present. Most people understand when you say, listen, this is a very serious thing, we don't think they're ever going to be back to where they were before, here's where we think they are, they don't get so hung up on the terms, at least not most parents.
O'BRIEN: And it happens every day we should remind people.
GUPTA: Ten thousand to 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state right now.
O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Carol.
LIN: All right. We are just moments away from an expected news conference by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, from his office in Florida. We are going to take you there for a preview. We want to hear what Michael Schiavo's side has to say.
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LIN: Well, a short time from now -- in fact, moments from now -- we expect to hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney. George Felos is to address reporters at his office in Dunedin, Florida. And that's where we find CNN's Randi Kaye, standing by there right now waiting for the attorney's appearance.
Randi, so far there have been lots of characterizations by the supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents about the last moments of Terri Schiavo's life and who was allowed in the room or not. We're anxious to hear from the attorney here.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are anxious to ask him that question, exactly how those final hours and final minutes were spent in Terri Schiavo's hospice room. We understand that the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, were not in there. Her brother and sister were not in there.
We're going to ask him exactly why. Because we had been told in recent days that he and the Schindlers and their attorney were going to try and work out an agreement for both sides to be with Terri during her final minutes. Apparently that did not happen.
We are expected to hear from him in just a few moments from now. We have not heard from Michael Schiavo today. In fact, we haven't heard from Michael Schiavo in quite some time now. He's remained very private during the final days of Terri Schiavo's life.
There are about 20 or so cameras here, waiting to see him. There's also some pretty heavy security.
In recent days, apparently George Felos has been getting some threats here at his office in Dunedin, Florida. Threats from all across the world, apparently, calling him a murderer and making death threats here.
So there has been some pretty heavy security here. Sheriff's deputies all across the area right now.
So we do have a lot of questions for him about the planned cremation of Terri Schiavo. We have some questions for him about the planned autopsy which is taking place today. And also about those final minutes in Terri Schiavo's hospice room -- Carol.
LIN: Randi, do you expect also that George Felos is going to be talking about the autopsy that's going to be performed on Terri Schiavo, why Michael Schiavo has made that decision and whether there will be any sort of dispute by Terri Schiavo's parents?
KAYE: We haven't heard yet that there will be any type of dispute. He did talk about the autopsy.
The way it was sort of explained to us, he made it sound as if it was Michael Schiavo's suggestion. But apparently this was something that was already planned by the coroner, by the medical examiner.
So Michael Schiavo apparently agreed to it, we were told. And we do hope to get more details from him about this.
This really has been, for both sides, a very emotional time, Carol. George Felos just shared with us over the weekend that he once was a hospice volunteer. And so he has seen people go through this and families be torn apart by this. And he will still describe, I would expect today, Terri Schiavo's final hours and final days as peaceful, comfortable, and exactly what Terri Schiavo had wanted and how she wanted to end her life.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Randi Kaye, standing by there.
Any moment now expecting to cover that news conference -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Of course we'll bring it to you when it happens. Michael Schiavo attorney George Felos coming momentarily. We'll also look at how other families dealt with a dying loved one when LIVE FROM continues.
Stay with us.
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