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Conflicting Reports on Pope's Condition

Aired April 01, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Let's just fill viewers in, in case they just happen to be tuning in.
As you probably have heard, Pope John Paul II is clinging ever so precariously to life as we speak. A lot of conflicting reports out there. And we apologize for the confusion. But whenever you're involved in a story like this, these kinds of things tend to happen. And we apologize to our viewers for any confusion they caused. We're just trying to keep the facts out there as quickly as we get them to you.

In any case, his conditioning worsening as we look at live pictures coming out of Rome as the faithful have gathered there to offer their prayers and, in this case, say a rosary. This is the holy father for Vatican City, Archbishop Angelo Comastri, who is leading the rosary there in prayer for Pope John Paul II.

You saw the pictures of the Vatican apartment, the light lit. Lots of symbolism that goes along with these events. And right now we're being very circumspect in what we say about the pope's condition except to say we do know this: the Vatican, while denying his passing, says there is no hope for the pope's condition now. It is just a matter of time.

Delia Gallagher is following things for us there.

Delia, what are you hearing there?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, Miles, we have heard exactly what you've reported, which is that the pope's condition is still grave. But we do have no official confirmation of anything more than that.

I can tell you that the people are continuing to come here to the square. So we have sort of two things happening at the same time.

One, is a great outpouring of affection for this pope right underneath his window in prayer from people from all over the world, because if there is one thing this pope has managed to do, it is to extend this Roman Vatican City throughout the world. And so the pilgrims come from every part of the world and share the same affection and share the same prayers, even if not in the same language.

And at the same time, of course, we have expectation from the press office or from Cardinal Ruini for some sort of an announcement. But I would say that the atmosphere here is one of sober, somber, prayerful.

O'BRIEN: Well, you say it's sober and it's somber, and I see a lot of long faces there. And this is in a way a very tense time. But there is also intermingled in this -- and we got a flavor of that when we heard Cardinal McCarrick, who I thought was very good -- a bit of a celebration of a wonderful life, a life well led, and an amazing, amazing papacy, an amazing touch with the people, a way at connecting with people.

Have you seen much evidence of that, Delia? Or is that not the time for this?

GALLAGHER: No, no, that is absolutely correct. I think that the feeling is one of sort of sadness at -- if he's so ill. But at the same time, one that he should be able to be in peace because of all of the things that he has done.

So it's obviously great affection, but surely something that at the same time one has expected. But once you're actually here in the moment, it becomes almost overwhelming -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right, Delia. That is -- this is one of those where I wish I was there. Thank you for trying to impart that all. But I think it's one of those moments when you have to be there. These kinds of events have a way of bringing crowds together with a certain kind of energy that's hard to explain -- Betty.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: And we want to go now to CNN's Alessio Vinci in Rome, where night has fallen on the city. It's 9:03 there.

Alessio, give us a sense of what is happening right now.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Betty, as Delia was reporting, the focus, of course, of the activity is in St. Peter's Square, where thousands of pilgrims have begun to gather. This is clearly an indication that the people of Rome have now understood that it is just a matter of hours before the pope will be -- will be pronounced dead, or at least this appears to be the feeling regardless of what an Italian news agency has been reporting for the last few hours, and that is that the pope's EEG, which is this medical equipment which monitors brain activity, has gone flat.

This is information that we have not been able to confirm. The Vatican press office has flatly denied, indeed, that the pope is dead. And I can tell you that judging from the amount of information we have received from the Vatican press office and the Vatican spokesman himself in the last 36 hours, I think the moment the pope dies we will know almost immediately.

There is no reason for the Vatican now to hide the fact that the pope is dead. And, indeed, I think that the Vatican officials, as well as the spokesman, is going to wait for that very moment, for that certainty that, indeed, the pope has passed away before sharing that information with the media. And, indeed, allowing then Cardinal Ruini, who is a vicar for the pope in Rome, to deliver that information to the rest of Italy through radio broadcasts, through a prayer perhaps in St. Peter's Square, through state television.

So while we have not been able to confirm at this time the fact that the pope has died, as some Italian agencies have reported, I can tell you that there is definitely the feeling here in Rome, and certainly judging by the thousands of people who have converged in St. Peter's Square to pay their last respects to Pope John Paul II, certainly there is a clear indication that John Paul II is, indeed, in the final moments of his long life and his very long papacy -- Betty.

NGUYEN: A life that has touched so many people. Alessio, let's pause just for a moment, because we want to listen to the service that's going on right now in St. Peter's Square, where people are praying for the pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Is the fruit of your will Jesus? Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

NGUYEN: You're listening to the rosary service in St. Peter's Square, where thousands have come to pray for the pope.

Alessio Vinci, let's go back to you now because, as we look at the crowds, they are of all ages there. Why do you think it is that this pope has touched so many people?

VINCI: You know, because it is a pope that has been throughout his pontificate not just a religious leader. I was talking to some pilgrims just a few hours ago coming out from the mass here at San Giovanni in Laterano, where Cardinal Ruini has celebrated mass for the pope. And what they were telling me, these young people and these older people, is that what they really liked about this pope is that, beyond his spirituality, beyond his theological message, this is a man of the people, young and old.

This is a man that we have seen in several occasions feeling re- energized by the young people, and the young people taking the energy from him. And in the final years of his pontificate we have seen how his suffering has become an example for the elderly that there is still a role in life for elder people, for older people.

So this is a man, if you want, for everybody. And besides the fact -- and beyond the fact whether you are a Catholic or not, or whether you believe in god or not, this is a man who has always had an ability, if you want, to touch the hearts of regular people, not simply the people who believed in god and believed in him.

This is a man who has had extremely conservative views on issues such as birth control, on issues such as gay marriage, on issues such as abortion, all issues that perhaps the younger generation is having a hard time to share and to understand. But at the same time, a lot of young people are telling us that, even if you disagree with the pope on these issues, he has shown to them to be an example how to lead their life, a just life, a life where you can care for the people who are less fortunate than yourself. And so all these elements put together make Pope John Paul II a man for all the people.

At the same time, this is one of the longest papacies in the history of popes. Most of the people in the square have known this pope and no other pope. And that is why, I think, this is a man who has an incredible impact on the older generation, on the older people, as well as the younger ones -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And he is the most widely traveled pope, as well. So obviously he has touched many, many people. Thousands have come to pray for him today in his tine of great illness today.

Alessio, we'll be checking in with you -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta is back.

And let's pick up on that travel point for just a moment, because in recent years we have all watched the pope press on with amazing intestinal fortitude despite a host of ailments, Parkinson's leading the list. And yet he has managed to muster the energy to connect with the faithful, and always, I think, felt if he couldn't do that he wasn't doing his job.

How did he do it? I mean, that's not a real medical question, I guess. Maybe he's got a connection that we don't have. But the energy he was able to muster, the ability to persevere through illness, is really an inspiration, I think.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: An inspiration. You know, I bet you that his doctors were wishing at some points that he wasn't traveling as much.

O'BRIEN: Right.

GUPTA: I mean, it certainly can take a toll. And we talk about the pope and all of the significant medical conditions, and we talk about the arthritis. This wasn't just your sort of garden root arthritis.

This was very significant arthritis, it significantly immobilized him, along with this Parkinson's disease. But still, he's traveling all over the world. I'm sure at various times, especially more recently, his doctors probably said, we wish you'd probably just stay closer to home and not put this toll on your body.

O'BRIEN: Yes. And, of course, there's no way of knowing what long-range implication that had. But clearly, if you stay home and nurse your body, you might be better off. Nevertheless, he felt compelled to do that.

Another thing that I think is interesting -- and I heard you talking about it earlier -- is he is, because of the arthritis and the Parkinson's, for quite a long period really has been pretty immobile and has had to have been wheeled around one way or another. That really does tend to start moving things more quickly in the medical world.

GUPTA: In so many ways it does. You know, in fact, when we talk about this need for the tracheotomy, that breathing tube, the Parkinson's disease probably had a lot to do with that, as well.

Parkinson's disease you typically think of as just a disease where it causes some tremor in your arms and some difficulty with your walking. It does more than that.

It affects really all the muscles in your body in so many ways. So even the muscles maybe around the upper airway were affected, which gave him those episodes of spasm. You may remember that in the upper airway subsequently needing this breathing tube.

But it's just the immobilization that people are definitively linked to infections. So if you're more immobile, if you're more likely to get infections -- again, when I heard about the fever yesterday, I thought it was more likely going to be a pneumonia, a chest infection. It turns out that it's a urinary tract infection.

O'BRIEN: And just by giving immobile it just gives the body -- for whatever reason, infection has a greater opportunity to set in for some reason?

GUPTA: Greater opportunity to set in. You don't cleanse your lungs as well. Someone who is of advanced age may also have some difficulties with the urinary tract and more likely to develop urinary tract infections.

O'BRIEN: Yes. It's -- this whole medical condition, with all the tools in the toolbox, if you will, we are also aware of the limitations of what good people like you can do at this point.

GUPTA: Someone who is in septic shock at this age with this degree of medical history already, long-standing medical history, in the best hands, in the best sort of situation, in the best ICU probably anywhere in the world, you're talking, you know, about a fifth of those patients will survive even if they're somewhat healthy to start with. Add this now to his age, add this to his other medical conditions, the odds are definitely against him. And I don't think that surprises anybody at this point.

Since February 1st, when he was first brought into the hospital, he's had this progressive course downwards. And I think everyone has realized that. He probably never recovered from that initial hospitalization.

O'BRIEN: And as we saw him last -- the last couple of days ago at the window, very ashen, very drawn, unable to speak at all, perhaps because of the tracheotomy, perhaps because of other things, right?

GUPTA: Right. And he just looked very lethargic, looked like he didn't have as much energy. Certainly didn't have the fortitude. We heard that he needed the feeding tube put in from his nose to the stomach just because he wasn't getting enough calorie. All of that fits. I mean, patients who are in this stage of their lives, where they're this old, with this many other medical problems, this is a common sort of course for them.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thanks again. Appreciate it -- Betty.

GUPTA: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Pope John Paul II is the first non-Italian pope in 455 years. He was born in Poland.

We want to get some reaction from those in his homeland. Let's go now to Chris Burns, who's in Krakow, Poland.

Chris, what are people there saying? What are they doing right now?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the songs, the prayers have been going on here for hours. And by the hour there have been hundreds of thousands now more people in this square.

What is behind me is the bishop's residence, the Curia, where the pope used to speak from the window in the center part of that building. There is now a black cross in that window where he used to have these intimate conversations with people here.

Exactly about three years ago was the last time he was here in Krakow when he spoke very intimately with the people outside, just small talk, really, but very emotional as well. And now people are here to say a final, what they believe to be a final good-bye here to the pope.

This is a very important city, by the way. This is where the pope became a priest, a bishop, an archbishop. This is really the place of history for him, and also an important place for the Poles themselves. They identify with Wavel Castle here as being the place really that embodies the Polish nation. Catholicism and the Polish nation are very, very closely intertwined here -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Have the people there shared any stories with you Chris, about the pope, how he touched their lives?

BURNS: Yes, very much. In fact, there was one woman I spoke with here. She's about 30 years old.

She came with her 5-year-old daughter and said, "Look, I brought my daughter here to see what I saw when I was 5 years old, was when the pope came at first after he was first named pope in 1979 when he came here for the first time. And really it moved the people."

This was a communist nation at the time under the Soviet boot, and the pope came here and said "We can change this land." And the people really responded to that. They brought about a revolution that was not violent. They changed this country and they cracked the Soviet blocs. They really see this man as being the man who led them to freedom, to democracy, and they're very thankful for that -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Chris Burns in Krakow, Poland, where Pope John Paul II became a priest, bishop, archbishop. A lot of history there. Thank you, Chris -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: St. Peter's Square is the focus, the nexus of an outpouring of love and affection and concern, quite frankly, for Pope John Paul II. Thousands gathered there praying, and specifically praying the rosary. They were led by several people, but leading them all was the holy father of the Vatican City, the vicar, Archbishop Angelo Comastri.

Let's just listen for just a moment to some of the prayers they offered just a few moments ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The sons and daughters get down on their knees and pray. And this is affection, gratitude, admiration that makes us do it. This is what we need to do tonight, to gather around the sacred father.

In this square on the 16th of October, 1978, with his young voice, he cried out, "Open, burst your doors open to Christ." Tonight, Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

O'BRIEN: Tonight Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

Jim Bittermann is in Rome, and was there the last time the papacy had a change of hands, if you will.

Jim, what's the scene there right now where you are?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in fact, this scene at St. Peter's is quite impressive. The rosary that has been and the things that have been said, you picked the highlight there, I think, Miles, in the one that you used.

In fact, has been quite impressive. People gathering here, I think kind of looking for a little spiritual union with each other as much as with the pope.

In a moment like this, the church is in transition. And, you know, I think we saw this same thing back 26 years ago when first Paul VI and then John Paul I died. People wanted to feel some togetherness.

They had lived under a pope, and they wanted to experience and sort of share notes with other Catholics and feel part of the Catholic union. I think we've seen that other places along the way here with the pope, and at other times along the way, where you see gatherings of Catholics who just like the idea of being around each other.

It happens at the youth days which the pope started some years ago. Young people, Catholic young people who find this sort of spiritual rejuvenation in the fact that there are others around that share their beliefs and with whom they can share their beliefs.

I was listening to you talking to Sanjay there and to Chris. And one of the things that struck me, as we think about the pope's various medical problems as starting I guess with the gunshot at St. Peter's Square in 1981, but, in fact, they go back even further than that. Because you have to remember that the pope grew up in first Nazi Poland and then communist Poland.

In Nazi Poland, he was hit by a truck, military truck at one point, almost killed. Recovered from that when he was a young man. And then when the communists came to power this town where he grew up, Wadowice, that area around Krakow, in fact was just polluted and not very well provided for in terms of food and other things.

So, I mean, he grew up in circumstances that were very impoverished. It wasn't exactly like you were getting three square meals a day when you were living in communist Poland. So a lot of other things may have contributed, and yet here he is at 84, and, as far as we know, still alive.

He was skiing -- it should be mentioned he was skiing up until 10 years ago -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: A skier, a hiker, a man who enjoyed the outdoors. Clearly this is -- he is of hearty stock, isn't he?

BITTERMANN: Definitely, definitely. And I think that's why I'm always a little bit worried about counting the pope out too soon. But I think we've heard a lot today to indicate that we are in the final hours here.

O'BRIEN: All right. Jim Bittermann, thank you very much for cautioning us along the way here, having all that experience covering the last time in quick succession two popes died.

Just to recap for our viewers, the pope, there's no really other way to describe it except to say he is on death's doorstep. The Vatican says he has not passed away, but as you just heard a moment ago at the rosary in St. Peter's Square, there are direct allusions in those prayers to him being with Christ at this moment.

Having said all that, no official word from the Vatican about his passing, except to say that his condition has steadily worsened and there is no hope.

Live pictures of St. Peter's Square, thousands of people gathering there silently, praying for a man they have come to love and admire, John Paul II, at the end of his days.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: You're looking at live pictures at St. Peter's Square, where the rosary service is under way. Thousands have gathered to pray for Pope John Paul II, who is gravely ill at this hour. Of course we will continue to update you on his condition. But so far, all we know is he is very, very ill. And, of course, we will have continuing coverage.

But we do want to speak with some folks who have met the pope, who have really gotten to know the pope in ways that many of us have not. And one of those persons is Monsignor James Moroney. He joins us now. He's with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Monsignor, you've met him on several occasions, Pope John Paul II, correct?

MONSIGNOR JAMES MORONEY, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Yes, I have, Betty.

NGUYEN: When was the last time you spoke with him?

MORONEY: I spoke with the holy father last spring, probably June or July. And at that time, as everyone could see from the news reports and from the pictures and so forth, he was -- he had grown very old. And I felt very much it was like speaking to a grandfather whom I loved very much, or speaking to an old pastor who had done so much for us through all the years.

NGUYEN: And you met him many, many years ago. Take us back to the time in which you worked for the Vatican.

MORONEY: Well, in fact, I had -- I was a seminarian at the time. And if I might mention first, when I see all the crowds standing in St. Peter's Square today praying at the end of this pontificate, it takes me back to that moment when we were standing there the night that he was first elected and walked out on that balcony.

So many people are asking the question today, what makes this holy father so beloved, why is it that the entire world has joined in praying for him now? And I think the first moment when he walked out on the balcony told us why.

The first thing that he said was what he said at the beginning of every one of his talks, "Praise be Jesus Christ." And then he immediately followed it by apologizing to the crowd for not speaking very good Italian. And, in fact, his Italian was very good.

NGUYEN: Absolutely.

MORONEY: But he had both the faith in Christ and the humility of Christ that was always so attractive to people. And I can remember that when I was a seminarian.

There was one day after the mass, and we had served mass for the holy father. And I had worked previous as a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) language secretary for the Senate (ph). So I had seen the holy father every day and he had come to know my face, and once my name.

NGUYEN: He remembered your name? MORONEY: He did. And that was a wonderful day.

I was walking down a corridor one day. He was coming the other way with just two or three other people.

I wasn't sure what to do. Here comes the pope. And as we were walking by, I said, (SPEAKING ITALIAN). And he had said, "Bon Giorno, James," and then walked by.

He had that kind of love for the seminarians and for individuals, for people that I've seen for 20-something years now. After we had served the mass, I'm standing there with a number of friends of mine, and he's walking down the line shaking hands with everyone.

And he came up to me and he looked at me and said, "I know you." And I said, "Yes, Holy Father." I said, "We're old friends. We worked together at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) family."

And he looked at me strangely like he didn't understand. And I thought, oh, I've offended pope.

NGUYEN: Oh, no.

MORONEY: And finally he put his arm around my shoulder and smiled at the camera and looked at himself and said, "An old friend," and patted me on the back and said, "A young friend."

NGUYEN: Oh.

MORONEY: As a man, over and over again you see examples of that. He had -- I think he took the name John Paul because he had the heart of a pastor like Pope John Paul XXIII. And like Pope Paul VI, he had the intellectual greatness that he showed from his days in the council to this present time.

NGUYEN: Monsignor Moroney, we were looking just a little while ago at a picture of you and the pope. You were holding his hand. Take me to that moment when you first touched the pope.

MORONEY: When I was talking to him last spring, it was just for a couple of minutes. And -- but as he held my hand and as he looked into my eyes, it was -- he -- I had a real sense, as so many do in the church today, that he was my pope, that he had his -- he's been the one pope through my entire priesthood.

And his example, his shepherding of the church, his modeling of who Christ is, has so formed my life and so formed the life of so many people in this world. You know, when people are gathered in St. Peter's Square today, it's not because of the political impact this pope had, although that's substantial. It's not because of the philosophical insights, although those are highly significant. It's because he's a pastor and because he was the vicar of Christ on Earth.

And he continues even in these moments of suffering to show us who Christ is and that Christ still loves us. NGUYEN: He's widely seen as a pope of the people, and you, in fact, have a story of really his love for children. Tell us a little bit about that.

MORONEY: Yes. I remember there was one day, it was after a mass in his private chapel, and there were probably about a dozen people who were gathered outside. And all some very important people and so forth. And he was going from person to person.

And he was talking to one person who let's just say wanted a good deal of the pope's attention. And she was going on and on and on. And as she was talking to the pope, he kept glancing down out of the side of his eye to this little child about 2 or 3 years old who was clasping on the back of his mother's dress and kind of hiding and then peeking at the pope. And you could tell the child was the center of his attention, not the person who was telling him so many important things.

And finally, he patted the woman on the hands and, you know, thanked her for having spoken to him, but terminated the conversation. And he got down on a knee and he looked at the little girl who then hid behind her mother's skirt. And he said something to her -- I think of it, too, because this week we say it, it's what Christ says to us all through the gospels this week after Easter. He said to her he said so many times through his pontificate.

He looked over and said, "Be not afraid." And the little girl looked out and ran over and fell into his arms. And he held the girl in his arms.

NGUYEN: Oh.

MORONEY: He always had a love not for the most powerful person in the room, not for the most influential person in the room, but just like Christ did, for the littlest and the most innocent and the most forgotten. And I think that's really what moves the heart of the whole world in his weakness now and in his littleness to be praying for him.

NGUYEN: Do you think that love for the common people is a result of his background?

MORONEY: I think so. I think certainly, as your Rome correspondent was saying a few minutes ago, this holy father has known suffering.

He knew suffering in the loss of a parent early on. He's known a great deal of physical suffering. He knew political suffering. He knows what it's like to be very close to the cross.

And then as a Catholic priest he would have ministered to so many people who were in suffering. And suffering, being drawn close to the cross, does a wonderful thing for us. It shows us what's really important in life. And at this moment, I am absolutely sure the holy father knows what's really important. NGUYEN: Well, thousands have come to pray for him. We're looking at live pictures right now of the rosary service that's taking place in St. Peter's Square. Monsignor Moroney, as we look at these pictures, as so many have come out to show their love, their support, their prayers for this pope, really, for many of them, this is the only pope they know.

MORONEY: Indeed. And, in fact, as they're praying in the square for this holy father, who has been given to us as a gift for so long, there are also prayers that are taking place in the apartment where the holy father is dying. And I'm sure gathered around him right now are his closest collaborators, in addition to the doctors and those who are trying to help him.

But I happen to have with me the prayer of commendation that the church uses at the bedside of every person as they're facing the moment of death, just before they die. It's a very short prayer, but it's one that our holy father himself would have prayed many times when he, as a priest, was at the bedside of someone about to die. I can read it if you'd like.

NGUYEN: Sure, go ahead.

MORONEY: Go forth, Christian soul, from this world in the name of God, the almighty father who created you. In the name of Jesus Christ, son of the living God who suffered for you, in the name of the Holy Spirit, who was poured out upon you, go forth, faithful Christian. May you live in peace this day. May your home be with God in Zion, with Mary the Virgin Mother of God, with Joseph and all the angels and saints.

It's the prayer of the whole world. We've been praying that prayer since the eighth century, Betty, and we pray it tonight for John Paul, our pastor and our shepherd.

NGUYEN: And I think what's striking, too, is that we are weeding through wire reports that the pope himself is also, despite his condition, joining in those prayers. What does that say about him?

MORONEY: I think it says that he is first and last a man of faith. This morning, Dr. Navarro-Valls had told us that after mass, the holy father wanted to pray the stations of the cross and then immediately after, he said something very telling. He said he wanted to pray the third hour of the liturgy of the hours.

That's the psalms that are prayed by every priest and deacon and bishop and sister in the world at 3:00 in the afternoon. Which is the -- it wasn't 3:00 in the afternoon, it was 9:00 in the morning in Rome, but at 3:00 in -- but he wanted to hear the prayers at 3:00 in the afternoon because that's when we remembered, on Good Friday last week, that Jesus had died at 3:00.

And so he wanted to join through the immemorial prayer of the church, to join his heart and his suffering to the suffering and the death of Christ. Just with the assurance, with that perfect assurance that we have in this week, this octave of Easter, that perfect assurance that those, as St. Paul says, who have died with the lord, will live with the lord. That's what tonight is, I know, in the heart of Pope John Paul II, as he goes home to God.

NGUYEN: Monsignor James Moroney, we thank you for sharing those stories with us.

MORONEY: Thank you, Betty.

NGUYEN: Miles.

O'BRIEN: And just to recap for our viewers, Pope John Paul II is, in fact, clinging ever so precariously to life. The Vatican indicating there is no hope for the holy father. At the same time, indicating, as Betty just mentioned, that he is, with visible participation, joining in the continual prayers of those around him who are assisting him. He remains in his apartment at the Vatican, the lights burning there.

And beneath those windows, filling St. Peter's Square, thousands of people have turned out to say prayers, say the rosary, to offer their support and their hopes for John Paul II at the end of what is the third longest papacy in history. 26 years now. For many of the faces you see there, the pope they remember, the only pope they remember. Somber mood, and yet, in many ways, a joyous mood as people talk about this man and what he meant to them over these many years.

Delia Gallagher is amid that crowd, at least on the outskirts of that crowd, anyhow. Delia, what are you seeing? What are you hearing there right now?

GALLAGHER: Well, Miles, I think it's interesting that -- you touched on it earlier, Betty, and your guest with that prayer. What we are feeling here is a very serene sense of prayer. When you listen to some of the words of those prayers, it can't help but make you think about the pope, focus on the pope and what he is experiencing at this moment.

And I think that's where most of the people in this crowd in St. Peter's Square are at. Very sort of deeply, calmly, in prayer with the pope, and that is the overriding sensation here at the Vatican tonight.

O'BRIEN: You know, Delia, we've talked a lot about those personal connections. You know, Betty was just talking about it with the monsignor, Monsignor Moroney, about how the pope was able to make those wonderful, individual connections. It's not unlike the same traits that you remark about in very successful politicians. I guess it goes for any leader, doesn't it?

GALLAGHER: Well, he just has charisma. I mean, that's the bottom line. It's a factor of Karol Wojtyta, who became pope, who was able to combine a personality of great charisma with a steely determination. Now, if you would say that to the pope, and he has said it on past occasions, he would say that's not my charisma. That's the charisma of the chair of Peter. Meaning that the fact that he is pope means that everybody would be interested in him. But those of us who have followed him beg to differ and say that really this was -- is an extraordinary man, who has done amazing things in his 26 years and I think we'll be recounting all of those things and everybody has their individual memories of him, but it always boils down to that personal connection which he has been able to transmit. And as you rightly say, Miles, that's something that great world leaders have.

O'BRIEN: Well, I think it's safe to say -- I think we don't have to go too far out on a limb, that he rose above the chair of Peter and set the bar for this difficult job, leading 1.1 billion Catholics the world over. Set the bar in a new place, and in many respects changed -- changes the job description, doesn't he?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is going to be interesting to see for the future of the church, because he is a very, a particularly charismatic man. That is not to say, however, that every pope has to lead in that style, and I think that you are right that there is a great burden on a future pope, with the shadow of this great communicator behind him.

But that doesn't mean that the church can't have an entirely different kind of pope. In fact, there is a sort of fun theory that they like to say that the popes do differ diametrically from one papacy to the next, so you might have a more serious, Pious the 12th and a more jolly John the 23rd and a more serious intellectual Paul the 6th and John Paul I, of course, whose papacy lasted only a short time.

So there is this consideration to make for the future of the church, how will the next pope be? But let's also remember, Miles, that the papacy is something that a cardinal must grow into,, so it's something that has to be seen over the long term.

O'BRIEN: Well, yes, there are so many other considerations, too. I mean, really, when the cardinals set about doing this and that would be at least, what, 15 days after the passing of the pope before the conclave would actually get together, there's so many other things to consider, such as really where the church is right now, where the growth of the church is and where it is important to show representation at the Vatican for Catholics the world over.

GALLAGHER: Yes. There are a number of factors which the cardinals will be taking into consideration at that time. As you mentioned, one of them will be some of the growing Catholic communities in Africa and South America, whether a pope should be representative of those communities or whether it should stay in Europe, the papacy.

But another factor is this pastoral consideration. Generally we say that a pope has to have two attributes. One is pastoral, the ability to communicate, having worked in diocese with the people and the other is having worked here at the Vatican and having some experience of the internal workings of the Catholic Church, which is a very big job in itself -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: And also very different than being the pastor of a flock, too, I imagine. All right. Delia Gallagher, thanks again. Stay close. Stay in close contact with us as we continue our coverage. Back with more in a just moment.

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O'BRIEN: The saying of the rosary continues there in St. Peter's Square, as this grim and at times actually buoyant vigil as people remember the wonderful life and legacy of Pope John Paul II continues as he fails in his bed in his apartment high above St. Peter's Square. No hope for him now, and it's just a matter of time.

Joining us is someone who has known him well over these years, Archbishop John P. Foley is the Vatican's communications director. He joins us from Philadelphia.

Archbishop Foley, just what are your thoughts as you see all this unfold today?

ARCHBISHOP JOHN FOLEY, VATICAN COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, it's very moving. I'm sorry that I'm not in Rome, of course, at this time. I'll be going back the day after tomorrow. But it's very, very sad. We've had a truly great pope. I first met him in 1967 when he was named a cardinal at the same time as Cardinal Crowell (ph) of Philadelphia, who was my bishop. So I had been in his home in Krakow in 1972. And he had been at St. Charles Seminary in Philadelphia where I taught in 1969, again, in 1976. And then I was English language press secretary for his trip through Ireland and the United States. And I remember one time at the White House, I was able to get into the White House when the pope was there, and the military aide took my name and told President Carter, he said, "Mr. President, this is Monsignor Foley." And the president said, "Your Holiness, this is Monsignor Foley." And the pope said, "I know, he's with me."

O'BRIEN: He's one of my guys.

FOLEY: So he was -- yeah, so he couldn't have been more gracious always. He was -- and always open to the press. And one time Cardinal Keeler (ph) of Baltimore had a video crew with him from a local station, and he said, "Your Holiness, would you mind if we taped this presentation?" and the pope said, "If it doesn't happen on television, it doesn't happen.

O'BRIEN: Wow.

FOLEY: So he had a real -- he had a real appreciation for the importance of the media, and I think he used it very well. Especially...

O'BRIEN: Oh, I think that might be the -- that could be the understatement of the day, what you just said there. He had a gift for that.

I want to talk about that in just a moment, but just going back to your first meeting. When you met him, did you say, this guy's got it. He could lead the church someday? Is that something that would ever occur to you back in the '60s? FOLEY: Well, not in 1967 I didn't think this. But later when he came to Philadelphia in '69, I saw him take -- he visited our seminary, and he took a special interest in the African-American students. And he asked them, in very good English, you know, what has been your experience as a black and as a Catholic in the United States. And he really wanted to know, so -- and he went around asking the seminarians all sorts of questions about their vocational experience, how they came to respond to the invitation of Christ. So he was very impressive. And I thought, this is a very, very pastoral man.

And then of course already his gift for languages was very evident. I personally have heard him speak in 13 languages. Now, I think he speaks even more, but I personally have heard conversations in 13 languages. So it's amazing, very impressive. I never ceased to be amazed and very edified. Once I said to him -- yeah, go ahead.

O'BRIEN: No, you go ahead.

FOLEY: Well, once I said to him -- he used to have the department heads for lunch one at a time, you know, to talk over our concerns a couple times a year. And I said to him, you know, Holy Father, sometimes your symbolic actions are more eloquent than some of your talks. And he said, I realize the importance of symbol. He said, I don't plan all these things. Most of them are spontaneous. But, he said, I now the importance of symbol. You know, he said, the word symbol comes from the Greek word symbolae, to bring together. And it's the opposite of the Greek word diabolae, which is the source of the word for devil, diabolical, which means to break apart. And he said a symbol can be a source of unity and of love.

So I've often thought of that when I see the holy father embrace a sick person or a child or reach out to somebody. And, in fact, one of my jobs is doing the commentary, the English-language commentary for papal ceremonies at major events. And last Good Friday, just last week, I was doing a commentary for The Way of the Cross from the coliseum, and it was the first time the pope was not there. He was in his private chapel watching on television. Well, as they got near to the Station of Cross that Jesus is nailed to the cross, they gave the holy father a crucifix, which he balanced on his knee and looked at. And then when they had Jesus crucified, he took the cross and embraced it. And I thought, what a beautiful symbolic action here. He didn't intend it as that. It was his devotion, his prayer. And, yet, I thought, here is this pope, who is suffering so much and, he embraces the cross with Christ. So I was deeply moved.

O'BRIEN: The term you might use in another realm is a natural. He was a natural.

FOLEY: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Or is a natural.

FOLEY: He was a natural. And I always said that what you see is what you get. You know, he was a man of prayer. He was very, very natural. He -- nothing was feigned. Nothing was forced. Everything flowed from his prayer, and for his love for each person. He recognized the dignity of each individual. And one thing that impressed me -- you know, sometimes I'd be walking with him, and people ask you to convey to the Pope a desire to pray for some particular intention.

So I said, holy father, somebody has asked that I ask you to pray for their intention. They're sick. And he would stop immediately, and he'd pray in Latin. He'd say, solace intramorem (ph), which is, our lady help of the sick, pray for us. And I've gotten into that habit now from him, because I figure when people ask you to pray, pray immediately for them and pray with them, because that's important, to not have them think that you're putting it in a file cabinet for later, you know.

O'BRIEN: Get it off the "To do" list.

I want to bring in an old friend of yours, Jim Bittermann, who is with us from Rome.

FOLEY: Oh, yes.

O'BRIEN: And what I'd like to ask you both about is this -- the pope clearly never saw television as a burden. He saw it as an opportunity, didn't he? Jim, do you want to start with that?

BITTERMANN: Oh, I think that's absolutely the case. John was along on many of those trips when the television was played to by the pope. He was amazing playing for the crowds. And you know, I think, Miles, you had it exactly right. He was a natural.

And so many times, even towards the end here, the last few months and few years when the pope's capacity for, for instance, appearing on camera, was somewhat diminished, it wasn't always the most pleasant thing to see the pope out in public, because he was difficult to watch sometimes, because he struggled so much to speak and the kind of things we've seen over the last few weeks.

I can remember, though, you know, at first it was at youth events, the youth event in Rome where he was -- his ability to move around was really limited. But by the same token, just with a few gestures, very small gestures, slight gesture -- it's the mark of a great actor, you know -- with just a few gestures, was able to captivate the crowd. And I think you saw that, John, as well, didn't you along away?

FOLEY: Absolutely. And he was very natural. I was speaking about having lunch with him. You know, the last time I had lunch with him about a year ago, he and his secretary, Archbishop Dziwisz, know that I don't drink alcohol. So for dessert they served this dessert, which was loaded with rum, and I was eating it with great delight. And the pope's secretary said to me, "Archbishop Foley, " he said, "What do you call a person who doesn't drink alcohol but eats it?" And the pope looked at me, and I said, "A hypocrite." And the pope had his mouth full, and almost choked on what he was eating, because he started to laugh. So he entered into the spirit of a very happy, relaxed and we covered quite a few things in those meals, too. You would indicate what you had been doing, what some of the desires you had for the office or for your work, or for some suggestions for him. And he would be open to everything. There was nothing at all...

O'BRIEN: Oh, I think we have lost Archbishop Foley. I apologize for that. Jim Bittermann, I think I still got you. Are you there, Jim?

BITTERMANN: Yes, I am. Yes, in fact, I was just going to ask him a question.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, let me ask you this, because you kind of hit on something that I've always noticed. In '87, I followed the pope around, I don't know, ten cities in nine days or nine cities in ten days. It was a grueling trip. He was really at the top of his game at that time, but that whole notion that he was a master in television. Very little nuances mean so much. And he had that gift, that ability to know that little things speak volumes.

BITTERMANN: It's incredible. You know, when you think of where the pope grew up and what his background was, where would he get that? I mean, you know, one of the things I've always been astonished at is how he had exactly the right combination of gifts. The fact that he was an actor, he was also a playwright, but also had this spiritual side, a very mystic side to him. But he also had the language gift. He spoke all these languages.

Where did that come from? This, you know, god foresaken little town, 70,000 people lost in Poland, Wadowice. Where did those talents come that suddenly propelled this man right up through the ranks of the church to the papacy?

O'BRIEN: Archbishop Foley is back with us. Maybe he can weigh in on that. I don't know if you heard all of what Jim had to say, but we were talking about, you know -- one of the terms would be renaissance man that the pope was and is. He is still with us. So many talents, so much breadth and depth of knowledge, so many interests. Really, you know, one of those break-the-mold kind of people.

FOLEY: Well, of course, his gift for languages is -- that's true. And he had to speak other languages, because not too many people speak Polish outside of Poland. So he learned German, of course, because Poland was occupied. He learned Russian because Poland was occupied. He also, when he went abroad to study, he studied St. John of the Cross, so he studied Spanish.

He lived at the Belgium College and so he learned to speak French and Flemish. And then he picked up Portuguese because of his interest in Fatima. Of course, he had to speak Italian because he was in Italy, and he also spoke Latin because the classes were always held in Latin. And he just kept going. He spoke Dutch because it was so close to Flemish. So the Slavic languages -- you know, I -- he spoke Ukrainian, he spoke Slovak, Czech, and he's amazing. God knows who is going to be able to follow in those footsteps with those very, very unique gifts.

O'BRIEN: I should say. You know, we've talked about this whole notion of a, you know, a tough act to follow. That kind of trivializes it in a way, doesn't it, Jim Bittermann?

BITTERMANN: Yes, I think it does, and I think John's right that it may not be anything like this pope that follows on. Delia was saying that earlier, too. I mean, what the cardinals will look for in a successor may be something that's very surprising. They may consider all sorts of qualities. Another thing that I forgot to mention -- another quality the pope had was, coming from Eastern Europe, and knowing what he did about the communist world, that when he got to the West, he was one of the first people to start to work for the downfall of the wall.

So I mean, you know, there were a lot of things going on there that he was just the right man at the right moment. One thing I wanted to ask John, you know, the Vatican is famous for the sort of tight Italian control of the curia, and I wonder how the Polish pope fit in as someone behind the scenes at the Vatican. How do you think he fit in with the rest of the curia?

FOLEY: Well, he sailed right over the curia to deal with you directly. And that's why he would have you for lunch, so he could find out what was really going on and talk to you in a relaxed manner about it. So I mean, he didn't try to circumvent the curia, but he exercised his right as the supreme shepherd of the church, as the boss, to call you in and speak to you directly.

So it was very refreshing and it was a beautiful experience, and always a spiritual experience. Because, first, you would go in to pray with him, and he would be deep in prayer and you'd hear him almost grunt. It sounded as if he was carrying on a conversation, almost raising objections to God sometimes. And then after lunch, you would go back into the chapel and pray, and not just a little prayer, you'd be there for five, ten minutes in prayer. So it was inspiring to see this pope in prayer and in action.

O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen.

FOLEY: A superb individual.

O'BRIEN: We're going to put this great conversation to a close for a moment. Maybe we can get you all back and we'll resume it in just a little bit. Archbishop John P. Foley in Philadelphia and Jim Bittermann, of course, in Rome -- Betty.

NGUYEN: We want to go now to Walt Rodgers, who is in Rome as well, to talk about the situation there because while we've been watching as this crowd has gathered in St. Peter's Square to observe the rosary service, are we going to be seeing services throughout the night?

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're certainly going to be seeing people praying throughout the night, Betty, because what we have is the pope hovering very perilously between life and death at this point. And if you have any doubts, all you have to do is listen to the statements that have been coming from the Vatican itself. The vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, said earlier today that the pope was now seeing Christ and touching the Christ.

The pope himself earlier in the day was told the gravity of his situation, and it is said, according to some Vatican officials, that His Holiness John Paul II asked to be read the scripture of the third hour. For those of you familiar with the New Testament, that's the time in which Christ died on the cross. And so if John Paul II did, indeed, ask to be read the scripture of the third hour, the third hour being the time in the afternoon when Jesus died on the cross, then the pope is very aware or was at that time very aware of what his situation is.

And more importantly in all of this is the change that has evolved in the medical bulletins that have come out today. Earlier in the day, we were told the pope was lucid. Now we no longer see that situation there. Indeed, the latest medical bulletins say his medical condition has deteriorated and they cite cardiorespiratory problems. There are very serious problems with the pope's heart at this point, also with his kidney, and what's interesting is that the latest medical bulletin did not talk about the pope's lucidity or consciousness. We're in a very grave situation, very sad for this pope -- Betty?

NGUYEN: And we, of course, will continue to follow it all day long here on CNN. Right now we're going to have to take a short break, but you are watching continuing coverage of the pope's condition. We'll be right back.

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MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Let's just fill viewers in, in case they just happen to be tuning in.
As you probably have heard, Pope John Paul II is clinging ever so precariously to life as we speak. A lot of conflicting reports out there. And we apologize for the confusion. But whenever you're involved in a story like this, these kinds of things tend to happen. And we apologize to our viewers for any confusion they caused. We're just trying to keep the facts out there as quickly as we get them to you.

In any case, his conditioning worsening as we look at live pictures coming out of Rome as the faithful have gathered there to offer their prayers and, in this case, say a rosary. This is the holy father for Vatican City, Archbishop Angelo Comastri, who is leading the rosary there in prayer for Pope John Paul II.

You saw the pictures of the Vatican apartment, the light lit. Lots of symbolism that goes along with these events. And right now we're being very circumspect in what we say about the pope's condition except to say we do know this: the Vatican, while denying his passing, says there is no hope for the pope's condition now. It is just a matter of time.

Delia Gallagher is following things for us there.

Delia, what are you hearing there?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, Miles, we have heard exactly what you've reported, which is that the pope's condition is still grave. But we do have no official confirmation of anything more than that.

I can tell you that the people are continuing to come here to the square. So we have sort of two things happening at the same time.

One, is a great outpouring of affection for this pope right underneath his window in prayer from people from all over the world, because if there is one thing this pope has managed to do, it is to extend this Roman Vatican City throughout the world. And so the pilgrims come from every part of the world and share the same affection and share the same prayers, even if not in the same language.

And at the same time, of course, we have expectation from the press office or from Cardinal Ruini for some sort of an announcement. But I would say that the atmosphere here is one of sober, somber, prayerful.

O'BRIEN: Well, you say it's sober and it's somber, and I see a lot of long faces there. And this is in a way a very tense time. But there is also intermingled in this -- and we got a flavor of that when we heard Cardinal McCarrick, who I thought was very good -- a bit of a celebration of a wonderful life, a life well led, and an amazing, amazing papacy, an amazing touch with the people, a way at connecting with people.

Have you seen much evidence of that, Delia? Or is that not the time for this?

GALLAGHER: No, no, that is absolutely correct. I think that the feeling is one of sort of sadness at -- if he's so ill. But at the same time, one that he should be able to be in peace because of all of the things that he has done.

So it's obviously great affection, but surely something that at the same time one has expected. But once you're actually here in the moment, it becomes almost overwhelming -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right, Delia. That is -- this is one of those where I wish I was there. Thank you for trying to impart that all. But I think it's one of those moments when you have to be there. These kinds of events have a way of bringing crowds together with a certain kind of energy that's hard to explain -- Betty.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: And we want to go now to CNN's Alessio Vinci in Rome, where night has fallen on the city. It's 9:03 there.

Alessio, give us a sense of what is happening right now.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Betty, as Delia was reporting, the focus, of course, of the activity is in St. Peter's Square, where thousands of pilgrims have begun to gather. This is clearly an indication that the people of Rome have now understood that it is just a matter of hours before the pope will be -- will be pronounced dead, or at least this appears to be the feeling regardless of what an Italian news agency has been reporting for the last few hours, and that is that the pope's EEG, which is this medical equipment which monitors brain activity, has gone flat.

This is information that we have not been able to confirm. The Vatican press office has flatly denied, indeed, that the pope is dead. And I can tell you that judging from the amount of information we have received from the Vatican press office and the Vatican spokesman himself in the last 36 hours, I think the moment the pope dies we will know almost immediately.

There is no reason for the Vatican now to hide the fact that the pope is dead. And, indeed, I think that the Vatican officials, as well as the spokesman, is going to wait for that very moment, for that certainty that, indeed, the pope has passed away before sharing that information with the media. And, indeed, allowing then Cardinal Ruini, who is a vicar for the pope in Rome, to deliver that information to the rest of Italy through radio broadcasts, through a prayer perhaps in St. Peter's Square, through state television.

So while we have not been able to confirm at this time the fact that the pope has died, as some Italian agencies have reported, I can tell you that there is definitely the feeling here in Rome, and certainly judging by the thousands of people who have converged in St. Peter's Square to pay their last respects to Pope John Paul II, certainly there is a clear indication that John Paul II is, indeed, in the final moments of his long life and his very long papacy -- Betty.

NGUYEN: A life that has touched so many people. Alessio, let's pause just for a moment, because we want to listen to the service that's going on right now in St. Peter's Square, where people are praying for the pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Is the fruit of your will Jesus? Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Ave Maria, full of grace, the lord is with you. You are blessed amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

NGUYEN: You're listening to the rosary service in St. Peter's Square, where thousands have come to pray for the pope.

Alessio Vinci, let's go back to you now because, as we look at the crowds, they are of all ages there. Why do you think it is that this pope has touched so many people?

VINCI: You know, because it is a pope that has been throughout his pontificate not just a religious leader. I was talking to some pilgrims just a few hours ago coming out from the mass here at San Giovanni in Laterano, where Cardinal Ruini has celebrated mass for the pope. And what they were telling me, these young people and these older people, is that what they really liked about this pope is that, beyond his spirituality, beyond his theological message, this is a man of the people, young and old.

This is a man that we have seen in several occasions feeling re- energized by the young people, and the young people taking the energy from him. And in the final years of his pontificate we have seen how his suffering has become an example for the elderly that there is still a role in life for elder people, for older people.

So this is a man, if you want, for everybody. And besides the fact -- and beyond the fact whether you are a Catholic or not, or whether you believe in god or not, this is a man who has always had an ability, if you want, to touch the hearts of regular people, not simply the people who believed in god and believed in him.

This is a man who has had extremely conservative views on issues such as birth control, on issues such as gay marriage, on issues such as abortion, all issues that perhaps the younger generation is having a hard time to share and to understand. But at the same time, a lot of young people are telling us that, even if you disagree with the pope on these issues, he has shown to them to be an example how to lead their life, a just life, a life where you can care for the people who are less fortunate than yourself. And so all these elements put together make Pope John Paul II a man for all the people.

At the same time, this is one of the longest papacies in the history of popes. Most of the people in the square have known this pope and no other pope. And that is why, I think, this is a man who has an incredible impact on the older generation, on the older people, as well as the younger ones -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And he is the most widely traveled pope, as well. So obviously he has touched many, many people. Thousands have come to pray for him today in his tine of great illness today.

Alessio, we'll be checking in with you -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta is back.

And let's pick up on that travel point for just a moment, because in recent years we have all watched the pope press on with amazing intestinal fortitude despite a host of ailments, Parkinson's leading the list. And yet he has managed to muster the energy to connect with the faithful, and always, I think, felt if he couldn't do that he wasn't doing his job.

How did he do it? I mean, that's not a real medical question, I guess. Maybe he's got a connection that we don't have. But the energy he was able to muster, the ability to persevere through illness, is really an inspiration, I think.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: An inspiration. You know, I bet you that his doctors were wishing at some points that he wasn't traveling as much.

O'BRIEN: Right.

GUPTA: I mean, it certainly can take a toll. And we talk about the pope and all of the significant medical conditions, and we talk about the arthritis. This wasn't just your sort of garden root arthritis.

This was very significant arthritis, it significantly immobilized him, along with this Parkinson's disease. But still, he's traveling all over the world. I'm sure at various times, especially more recently, his doctors probably said, we wish you'd probably just stay closer to home and not put this toll on your body.

O'BRIEN: Yes. And, of course, there's no way of knowing what long-range implication that had. But clearly, if you stay home and nurse your body, you might be better off. Nevertheless, he felt compelled to do that.

Another thing that I think is interesting -- and I heard you talking about it earlier -- is he is, because of the arthritis and the Parkinson's, for quite a long period really has been pretty immobile and has had to have been wheeled around one way or another. That really does tend to start moving things more quickly in the medical world.

GUPTA: In so many ways it does. You know, in fact, when we talk about this need for the tracheotomy, that breathing tube, the Parkinson's disease probably had a lot to do with that, as well.

Parkinson's disease you typically think of as just a disease where it causes some tremor in your arms and some difficulty with your walking. It does more than that.

It affects really all the muscles in your body in so many ways. So even the muscles maybe around the upper airway were affected, which gave him those episodes of spasm. You may remember that in the upper airway subsequently needing this breathing tube.

But it's just the immobilization that people are definitively linked to infections. So if you're more immobile, if you're more likely to get infections -- again, when I heard about the fever yesterday, I thought it was more likely going to be a pneumonia, a chest infection. It turns out that it's a urinary tract infection.

O'BRIEN: And just by giving immobile it just gives the body -- for whatever reason, infection has a greater opportunity to set in for some reason?

GUPTA: Greater opportunity to set in. You don't cleanse your lungs as well. Someone who is of advanced age may also have some difficulties with the urinary tract and more likely to develop urinary tract infections.

O'BRIEN: Yes. It's -- this whole medical condition, with all the tools in the toolbox, if you will, we are also aware of the limitations of what good people like you can do at this point.

GUPTA: Someone who is in septic shock at this age with this degree of medical history already, long-standing medical history, in the best hands, in the best sort of situation, in the best ICU probably anywhere in the world, you're talking, you know, about a fifth of those patients will survive even if they're somewhat healthy to start with. Add this now to his age, add this to his other medical conditions, the odds are definitely against him. And I don't think that surprises anybody at this point.

Since February 1st, when he was first brought into the hospital, he's had this progressive course downwards. And I think everyone has realized that. He probably never recovered from that initial hospitalization.

O'BRIEN: And as we saw him last -- the last couple of days ago at the window, very ashen, very drawn, unable to speak at all, perhaps because of the tracheotomy, perhaps because of other things, right?

GUPTA: Right. And he just looked very lethargic, looked like he didn't have as much energy. Certainly didn't have the fortitude. We heard that he needed the feeding tube put in from his nose to the stomach just because he wasn't getting enough calorie. All of that fits. I mean, patients who are in this stage of their lives, where they're this old, with this many other medical problems, this is a common sort of course for them.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta, thanks again. Appreciate it -- Betty.

GUPTA: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Pope John Paul II is the first non-Italian pope in 455 years. He was born in Poland.

We want to get some reaction from those in his homeland. Let's go now to Chris Burns, who's in Krakow, Poland.

Chris, what are people there saying? What are they doing right now?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the songs, the prayers have been going on here for hours. And by the hour there have been hundreds of thousands now more people in this square.

What is behind me is the bishop's residence, the Curia, where the pope used to speak from the window in the center part of that building. There is now a black cross in that window where he used to have these intimate conversations with people here.

Exactly about three years ago was the last time he was here in Krakow when he spoke very intimately with the people outside, just small talk, really, but very emotional as well. And now people are here to say a final, what they believe to be a final good-bye here to the pope.

This is a very important city, by the way. This is where the pope became a priest, a bishop, an archbishop. This is really the place of history for him, and also an important place for the Poles themselves. They identify with Wavel Castle here as being the place really that embodies the Polish nation. Catholicism and the Polish nation are very, very closely intertwined here -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Have the people there shared any stories with you Chris, about the pope, how he touched their lives?

BURNS: Yes, very much. In fact, there was one woman I spoke with here. She's about 30 years old.

She came with her 5-year-old daughter and said, "Look, I brought my daughter here to see what I saw when I was 5 years old, was when the pope came at first after he was first named pope in 1979 when he came here for the first time. And really it moved the people."

This was a communist nation at the time under the Soviet boot, and the pope came here and said "We can change this land." And the people really responded to that. They brought about a revolution that was not violent. They changed this country and they cracked the Soviet blocs. They really see this man as being the man who led them to freedom, to democracy, and they're very thankful for that -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Chris Burns in Krakow, Poland, where Pope John Paul II became a priest, bishop, archbishop. A lot of history there. Thank you, Chris -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: St. Peter's Square is the focus, the nexus of an outpouring of love and affection and concern, quite frankly, for Pope John Paul II. Thousands gathered there praying, and specifically praying the rosary. They were led by several people, but leading them all was the holy father of the Vatican City, the vicar, Archbishop Angelo Comastri.

Let's just listen for just a moment to some of the prayers they offered just a few moments ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The sons and daughters get down on their knees and pray. And this is affection, gratitude, admiration that makes us do it. This is what we need to do tonight, to gather around the sacred father.

In this square on the 16th of October, 1978, with his young voice, he cried out, "Open, burst your doors open to Christ." Tonight, Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

O'BRIEN: Tonight Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

Jim Bittermann is in Rome, and was there the last time the papacy had a change of hands, if you will.

Jim, what's the scene there right now where you are?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in fact, this scene at St. Peter's is quite impressive. The rosary that has been and the things that have been said, you picked the highlight there, I think, Miles, in the one that you used.

In fact, has been quite impressive. People gathering here, I think kind of looking for a little spiritual union with each other as much as with the pope.

In a moment like this, the church is in transition. And, you know, I think we saw this same thing back 26 years ago when first Paul VI and then John Paul I died. People wanted to feel some togetherness.

They had lived under a pope, and they wanted to experience and sort of share notes with other Catholics and feel part of the Catholic union. I think we've seen that other places along the way here with the pope, and at other times along the way, where you see gatherings of Catholics who just like the idea of being around each other.

It happens at the youth days which the pope started some years ago. Young people, Catholic young people who find this sort of spiritual rejuvenation in the fact that there are others around that share their beliefs and with whom they can share their beliefs.

I was listening to you talking to Sanjay there and to Chris. And one of the things that struck me, as we think about the pope's various medical problems as starting I guess with the gunshot at St. Peter's Square in 1981, but, in fact, they go back even further than that. Because you have to remember that the pope grew up in first Nazi Poland and then communist Poland.

In Nazi Poland, he was hit by a truck, military truck at one point, almost killed. Recovered from that when he was a young man. And then when the communists came to power this town where he grew up, Wadowice, that area around Krakow, in fact was just polluted and not very well provided for in terms of food and other things.

So, I mean, he grew up in circumstances that were very impoverished. It wasn't exactly like you were getting three square meals a day when you were living in communist Poland. So a lot of other things may have contributed, and yet here he is at 84, and, as far as we know, still alive.

He was skiing -- it should be mentioned he was skiing up until 10 years ago -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: A skier, a hiker, a man who enjoyed the outdoors. Clearly this is -- he is of hearty stock, isn't he?

BITTERMANN: Definitely, definitely. And I think that's why I'm always a little bit worried about counting the pope out too soon. But I think we've heard a lot today to indicate that we are in the final hours here.

O'BRIEN: All right. Jim Bittermann, thank you very much for cautioning us along the way here, having all that experience covering the last time in quick succession two popes died.

Just to recap for our viewers, the pope, there's no really other way to describe it except to say he is on death's doorstep. The Vatican says he has not passed away, but as you just heard a moment ago at the rosary in St. Peter's Square, there are direct allusions in those prayers to him being with Christ at this moment.

Having said all that, no official word from the Vatican about his passing, except to say that his condition has steadily worsened and there is no hope.

Live pictures of St. Peter's Square, thousands of people gathering there silently, praying for a man they have come to love and admire, John Paul II, at the end of his days.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: You're looking at live pictures at St. Peter's Square, where the rosary service is under way. Thousands have gathered to pray for Pope John Paul II, who is gravely ill at this hour. Of course we will continue to update you on his condition. But so far, all we know is he is very, very ill. And, of course, we will have continuing coverage.

But we do want to speak with some folks who have met the pope, who have really gotten to know the pope in ways that many of us have not. And one of those persons is Monsignor James Moroney. He joins us now. He's with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Monsignor, you've met him on several occasions, Pope John Paul II, correct?

MONSIGNOR JAMES MORONEY, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Yes, I have, Betty.

NGUYEN: When was the last time you spoke with him?

MORONEY: I spoke with the holy father last spring, probably June or July. And at that time, as everyone could see from the news reports and from the pictures and so forth, he was -- he had grown very old. And I felt very much it was like speaking to a grandfather whom I loved very much, or speaking to an old pastor who had done so much for us through all the years.

NGUYEN: And you met him many, many years ago. Take us back to the time in which you worked for the Vatican.

MORONEY: Well, in fact, I had -- I was a seminarian at the time. And if I might mention first, when I see all the crowds standing in St. Peter's Square today praying at the end of this pontificate, it takes me back to that moment when we were standing there the night that he was first elected and walked out on that balcony.

So many people are asking the question today, what makes this holy father so beloved, why is it that the entire world has joined in praying for him now? And I think the first moment when he walked out on the balcony told us why.

The first thing that he said was what he said at the beginning of every one of his talks, "Praise be Jesus Christ." And then he immediately followed it by apologizing to the crowd for not speaking very good Italian. And, in fact, his Italian was very good.

NGUYEN: Absolutely.

MORONEY: But he had both the faith in Christ and the humility of Christ that was always so attractive to people. And I can remember that when I was a seminarian.

There was one day after the mass, and we had served mass for the holy father. And I had worked previous as a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) language secretary for the Senate (ph). So I had seen the holy father every day and he had come to know my face, and once my name.

NGUYEN: He remembered your name? MORONEY: He did. And that was a wonderful day.

I was walking down a corridor one day. He was coming the other way with just two or three other people.

I wasn't sure what to do. Here comes the pope. And as we were walking by, I said, (SPEAKING ITALIAN). And he had said, "Bon Giorno, James," and then walked by.

He had that kind of love for the seminarians and for individuals, for people that I've seen for 20-something years now. After we had served the mass, I'm standing there with a number of friends of mine, and he's walking down the line shaking hands with everyone.

And he came up to me and he looked at me and said, "I know you." And I said, "Yes, Holy Father." I said, "We're old friends. We worked together at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) family."

And he looked at me strangely like he didn't understand. And I thought, oh, I've offended pope.

NGUYEN: Oh, no.

MORONEY: And finally he put his arm around my shoulder and smiled at the camera and looked at himself and said, "An old friend," and patted me on the back and said, "A young friend."

NGUYEN: Oh.

MORONEY: As a man, over and over again you see examples of that. He had -- I think he took the name John Paul because he had the heart of a pastor like Pope John Paul XXIII. And like Pope Paul VI, he had the intellectual greatness that he showed from his days in the council to this present time.

NGUYEN: Monsignor Moroney, we were looking just a little while ago at a picture of you and the pope. You were holding his hand. Take me to that moment when you first touched the pope.

MORONEY: When I was talking to him last spring, it was just for a couple of minutes. And -- but as he held my hand and as he looked into my eyes, it was -- he -- I had a real sense, as so many do in the church today, that he was my pope, that he had his -- he's been the one pope through my entire priesthood.

And his example, his shepherding of the church, his modeling of who Christ is, has so formed my life and so formed the life of so many people in this world. You know, when people are gathered in St. Peter's Square today, it's not because of the political impact this pope had, although that's substantial. It's not because of the philosophical insights, although those are highly significant. It's because he's a pastor and because he was the vicar of Christ on Earth.

And he continues even in these moments of suffering to show us who Christ is and that Christ still loves us. NGUYEN: He's widely seen as a pope of the people, and you, in fact, have a story of really his love for children. Tell us a little bit about that.

MORONEY: Yes. I remember there was one day, it was after a mass in his private chapel, and there were probably about a dozen people who were gathered outside. And all some very important people and so forth. And he was going from person to person.

And he was talking to one person who let's just say wanted a good deal of the pope's attention. And she was going on and on and on. And as she was talking to the pope, he kept glancing down out of the side of his eye to this little child about 2 or 3 years old who was clasping on the back of his mother's dress and kind of hiding and then peeking at the pope. And you could tell the child was the center of his attention, not the person who was telling him so many important things.

And finally, he patted the woman on the hands and, you know, thanked her for having spoken to him, but terminated the conversation. And he got down on a knee and he looked at the little girl who then hid behind her mother's skirt. And he said something to her -- I think of it, too, because this week we say it, it's what Christ says to us all through the gospels this week after Easter. He said to her he said so many times through his pontificate.

He looked over and said, "Be not afraid." And the little girl looked out and ran over and fell into his arms. And he held the girl in his arms.

NGUYEN: Oh.

MORONEY: He always had a love not for the most powerful person in the room, not for the most influential person in the room, but just like Christ did, for the littlest and the most innocent and the most forgotten. And I think that's really what moves the heart of the whole world in his weakness now and in his littleness to be praying for him.

NGUYEN: Do you think that love for the common people is a result of his background?

MORONEY: I think so. I think certainly, as your Rome correspondent was saying a few minutes ago, this holy father has known suffering.

He knew suffering in the loss of a parent early on. He's known a great deal of physical suffering. He knew political suffering. He knows what it's like to be very close to the cross.

And then as a Catholic priest he would have ministered to so many people who were in suffering. And suffering, being drawn close to the cross, does a wonderful thing for us. It shows us what's really important in life. And at this moment, I am absolutely sure the holy father knows what's really important. NGUYEN: Well, thousands have come to pray for him. We're looking at live pictures right now of the rosary service that's taking place in St. Peter's Square. Monsignor Moroney, as we look at these pictures, as so many have come out to show their love, their support, their prayers for this pope, really, for many of them, this is the only pope they know.

MORONEY: Indeed. And, in fact, as they're praying in the square for this holy father, who has been given to us as a gift for so long, there are also prayers that are taking place in the apartment where the holy father is dying. And I'm sure gathered around him right now are his closest collaborators, in addition to the doctors and those who are trying to help him.

But I happen to have with me the prayer of commendation that the church uses at the bedside of every person as they're facing the moment of death, just before they die. It's a very short prayer, but it's one that our holy father himself would have prayed many times when he, as a priest, was at the bedside of someone about to die. I can read it if you'd like.

NGUYEN: Sure, go ahead.

MORONEY: Go forth, Christian soul, from this world in the name of God, the almighty father who created you. In the name of Jesus Christ, son of the living God who suffered for you, in the name of the Holy Spirit, who was poured out upon you, go forth, faithful Christian. May you live in peace this day. May your home be with God in Zion, with Mary the Virgin Mother of God, with Joseph and all the angels and saints.

It's the prayer of the whole world. We've been praying that prayer since the eighth century, Betty, and we pray it tonight for John Paul, our pastor and our shepherd.

NGUYEN: And I think what's striking, too, is that we are weeding through wire reports that the pope himself is also, despite his condition, joining in those prayers. What does that say about him?

MORONEY: I think it says that he is first and last a man of faith. This morning, Dr. Navarro-Valls had told us that after mass, the holy father wanted to pray the stations of the cross and then immediately after, he said something very telling. He said he wanted to pray the third hour of the liturgy of the hours.

That's the psalms that are prayed by every priest and deacon and bishop and sister in the world at 3:00 in the afternoon. Which is the -- it wasn't 3:00 in the afternoon, it was 9:00 in the morning in Rome, but at 3:00 in -- but he wanted to hear the prayers at 3:00 in the afternoon because that's when we remembered, on Good Friday last week, that Jesus had died at 3:00.

And so he wanted to join through the immemorial prayer of the church, to join his heart and his suffering to the suffering and the death of Christ. Just with the assurance, with that perfect assurance that we have in this week, this octave of Easter, that perfect assurance that those, as St. Paul says, who have died with the lord, will live with the lord. That's what tonight is, I know, in the heart of Pope John Paul II, as he goes home to God.

NGUYEN: Monsignor James Moroney, we thank you for sharing those stories with us.

MORONEY: Thank you, Betty.

NGUYEN: Miles.

O'BRIEN: And just to recap for our viewers, Pope John Paul II is, in fact, clinging ever so precariously to life. The Vatican indicating there is no hope for the holy father. At the same time, indicating, as Betty just mentioned, that he is, with visible participation, joining in the continual prayers of those around him who are assisting him. He remains in his apartment at the Vatican, the lights burning there.

And beneath those windows, filling St. Peter's Square, thousands of people have turned out to say prayers, say the rosary, to offer their support and their hopes for John Paul II at the end of what is the third longest papacy in history. 26 years now. For many of the faces you see there, the pope they remember, the only pope they remember. Somber mood, and yet, in many ways, a joyous mood as people talk about this man and what he meant to them over these many years.

Delia Gallagher is amid that crowd, at least on the outskirts of that crowd, anyhow. Delia, what are you seeing? What are you hearing there right now?

GALLAGHER: Well, Miles, I think it's interesting that -- you touched on it earlier, Betty, and your guest with that prayer. What we are feeling here is a very serene sense of prayer. When you listen to some of the words of those prayers, it can't help but make you think about the pope, focus on the pope and what he is experiencing at this moment.

And I think that's where most of the people in this crowd in St. Peter's Square are at. Very sort of deeply, calmly, in prayer with the pope, and that is the overriding sensation here at the Vatican tonight.

O'BRIEN: You know, Delia, we've talked a lot about those personal connections. You know, Betty was just talking about it with the monsignor, Monsignor Moroney, about how the pope was able to make those wonderful, individual connections. It's not unlike the same traits that you remark about in very successful politicians. I guess it goes for any leader, doesn't it?

GALLAGHER: Well, he just has charisma. I mean, that's the bottom line. It's a factor of Karol Wojtyta, who became pope, who was able to combine a personality of great charisma with a steely determination. Now, if you would say that to the pope, and he has said it on past occasions, he would say that's not my charisma. That's the charisma of the chair of Peter. Meaning that the fact that he is pope means that everybody would be interested in him. But those of us who have followed him beg to differ and say that really this was -- is an extraordinary man, who has done amazing things in his 26 years and I think we'll be recounting all of those things and everybody has their individual memories of him, but it always boils down to that personal connection which he has been able to transmit. And as you rightly say, Miles, that's something that great world leaders have.

O'BRIEN: Well, I think it's safe to say -- I think we don't have to go too far out on a limb, that he rose above the chair of Peter and set the bar for this difficult job, leading 1.1 billion Catholics the world over. Set the bar in a new place, and in many respects changed -- changes the job description, doesn't he?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is going to be interesting to see for the future of the church, because he is a very, a particularly charismatic man. That is not to say, however, that every pope has to lead in that style, and I think that you are right that there is a great burden on a future pope, with the shadow of this great communicator behind him.

But that doesn't mean that the church can't have an entirely different kind of pope. In fact, there is a sort of fun theory that they like to say that the popes do differ diametrically from one papacy to the next, so you might have a more serious, Pious the 12th and a more jolly John the 23rd and a more serious intellectual Paul the 6th and John Paul I, of course, whose papacy lasted only a short time.

So there is this consideration to make for the future of the church, how will the next pope be? But let's also remember, Miles, that the papacy is something that a cardinal must grow into,, so it's something that has to be seen over the long term.

O'BRIEN: Well, yes, there are so many other considerations, too. I mean, really, when the cardinals set about doing this and that would be at least, what, 15 days after the passing of the pope before the conclave would actually get together, there's so many other things to consider, such as really where the church is right now, where the growth of the church is and where it is important to show representation at the Vatican for Catholics the world over.

GALLAGHER: Yes. There are a number of factors which the cardinals will be taking into consideration at that time. As you mentioned, one of them will be some of the growing Catholic communities in Africa and South America, whether a pope should be representative of those communities or whether it should stay in Europe, the papacy.

But another factor is this pastoral consideration. Generally we say that a pope has to have two attributes. One is pastoral, the ability to communicate, having worked in diocese with the people and the other is having worked here at the Vatican and having some experience of the internal workings of the Catholic Church, which is a very big job in itself -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: And also very different than being the pastor of a flock, too, I imagine. All right. Delia Gallagher, thanks again. Stay close. Stay in close contact with us as we continue our coverage. Back with more in a just moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: The saying of the rosary continues there in St. Peter's Square, as this grim and at times actually buoyant vigil as people remember the wonderful life and legacy of Pope John Paul II continues as he fails in his bed in his apartment high above St. Peter's Square. No hope for him now, and it's just a matter of time.

Joining us is someone who has known him well over these years, Archbishop John P. Foley is the Vatican's communications director. He joins us from Philadelphia.

Archbishop Foley, just what are your thoughts as you see all this unfold today?

ARCHBISHOP JOHN FOLEY, VATICAN COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, it's very moving. I'm sorry that I'm not in Rome, of course, at this time. I'll be going back the day after tomorrow. But it's very, very sad. We've had a truly great pope. I first met him in 1967 when he was named a cardinal at the same time as Cardinal Crowell (ph) of Philadelphia, who was my bishop. So I had been in his home in Krakow in 1972. And he had been at St. Charles Seminary in Philadelphia where I taught in 1969, again, in 1976. And then I was English language press secretary for his trip through Ireland and the United States. And I remember one time at the White House, I was able to get into the White House when the pope was there, and the military aide took my name and told President Carter, he said, "Mr. President, this is Monsignor Foley." And the president said, "Your Holiness, this is Monsignor Foley." And the pope said, "I know, he's with me."

O'BRIEN: He's one of my guys.

FOLEY: So he was -- yeah, so he couldn't have been more gracious always. He was -- and always open to the press. And one time Cardinal Keeler (ph) of Baltimore had a video crew with him from a local station, and he said, "Your Holiness, would you mind if we taped this presentation?" and the pope said, "If it doesn't happen on television, it doesn't happen.

O'BRIEN: Wow.

FOLEY: So he had a real -- he had a real appreciation for the importance of the media, and I think he used it very well. Especially...

O'BRIEN: Oh, I think that might be the -- that could be the understatement of the day, what you just said there. He had a gift for that.

I want to talk about that in just a moment, but just going back to your first meeting. When you met him, did you say, this guy's got it. He could lead the church someday? Is that something that would ever occur to you back in the '60s? FOLEY: Well, not in 1967 I didn't think this. But later when he came to Philadelphia in '69, I saw him take -- he visited our seminary, and he took a special interest in the African-American students. And he asked them, in very good English, you know, what has been your experience as a black and as a Catholic in the United States. And he really wanted to know, so -- and he went around asking the seminarians all sorts of questions about their vocational experience, how they came to respond to the invitation of Christ. So he was very impressive. And I thought, this is a very, very pastoral man.

And then of course already his gift for languages was very evident. I personally have heard him speak in 13 languages. Now, I think he speaks even more, but I personally have heard conversations in 13 languages. So it's amazing, very impressive. I never ceased to be amazed and very edified. Once I said to him -- yeah, go ahead.

O'BRIEN: No, you go ahead.

FOLEY: Well, once I said to him -- he used to have the department heads for lunch one at a time, you know, to talk over our concerns a couple times a year. And I said to him, you know, Holy Father, sometimes your symbolic actions are more eloquent than some of your talks. And he said, I realize the importance of symbol. He said, I don't plan all these things. Most of them are spontaneous. But, he said, I now the importance of symbol. You know, he said, the word symbol comes from the Greek word symbolae, to bring together. And it's the opposite of the Greek word diabolae, which is the source of the word for devil, diabolical, which means to break apart. And he said a symbol can be a source of unity and of love.

So I've often thought of that when I see the holy father embrace a sick person or a child or reach out to somebody. And, in fact, one of my jobs is doing the commentary, the English-language commentary for papal ceremonies at major events. And last Good Friday, just last week, I was doing a commentary for The Way of the Cross from the coliseum, and it was the first time the pope was not there. He was in his private chapel watching on television. Well, as they got near to the Station of Cross that Jesus is nailed to the cross, they gave the holy father a crucifix, which he balanced on his knee and looked at. And then when they had Jesus crucified, he took the cross and embraced it. And I thought, what a beautiful symbolic action here. He didn't intend it as that. It was his devotion, his prayer. And, yet, I thought, here is this pope, who is suffering so much and, he embraces the cross with Christ. So I was deeply moved.

O'BRIEN: The term you might use in another realm is a natural. He was a natural.

FOLEY: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Or is a natural.

FOLEY: He was a natural. And I always said that what you see is what you get. You know, he was a man of prayer. He was very, very natural. He -- nothing was feigned. Nothing was forced. Everything flowed from his prayer, and for his love for each person. He recognized the dignity of each individual. And one thing that impressed me -- you know, sometimes I'd be walking with him, and people ask you to convey to the Pope a desire to pray for some particular intention.

So I said, holy father, somebody has asked that I ask you to pray for their intention. They're sick. And he would stop immediately, and he'd pray in Latin. He'd say, solace intramorem (ph), which is, our lady help of the sick, pray for us. And I've gotten into that habit now from him, because I figure when people ask you to pray, pray immediately for them and pray with them, because that's important, to not have them think that you're putting it in a file cabinet for later, you know.

O'BRIEN: Get it off the "To do" list.

I want to bring in an old friend of yours, Jim Bittermann, who is with us from Rome.

FOLEY: Oh, yes.

O'BRIEN: And what I'd like to ask you both about is this -- the pope clearly never saw television as a burden. He saw it as an opportunity, didn't he? Jim, do you want to start with that?

BITTERMANN: Oh, I think that's absolutely the case. John was along on many of those trips when the television was played to by the pope. He was amazing playing for the crowds. And you know, I think, Miles, you had it exactly right. He was a natural.

And so many times, even towards the end here, the last few months and few years when the pope's capacity for, for instance, appearing on camera, was somewhat diminished, it wasn't always the most pleasant thing to see the pope out in public, because he was difficult to watch sometimes, because he struggled so much to speak and the kind of things we've seen over the last few weeks.

I can remember, though, you know, at first it was at youth events, the youth event in Rome where he was -- his ability to move around was really limited. But by the same token, just with a few gestures, very small gestures, slight gesture -- it's the mark of a great actor, you know -- with just a few gestures, was able to captivate the crowd. And I think you saw that, John, as well, didn't you along away?

FOLEY: Absolutely. And he was very natural. I was speaking about having lunch with him. You know, the last time I had lunch with him about a year ago, he and his secretary, Archbishop Dziwisz, know that I don't drink alcohol. So for dessert they served this dessert, which was loaded with rum, and I was eating it with great delight. And the pope's secretary said to me, "Archbishop Foley, " he said, "What do you call a person who doesn't drink alcohol but eats it?" And the pope looked at me, and I said, "A hypocrite." And the pope had his mouth full, and almost choked on what he was eating, because he started to laugh. So he entered into the spirit of a very happy, relaxed and we covered quite a few things in those meals, too. You would indicate what you had been doing, what some of the desires you had for the office or for your work, or for some suggestions for him. And he would be open to everything. There was nothing at all...

O'BRIEN: Oh, I think we have lost Archbishop Foley. I apologize for that. Jim Bittermann, I think I still got you. Are you there, Jim?

BITTERMANN: Yes, I am. Yes, in fact, I was just going to ask him a question.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, let me ask you this, because you kind of hit on something that I've always noticed. In '87, I followed the pope around, I don't know, ten cities in nine days or nine cities in ten days. It was a grueling trip. He was really at the top of his game at that time, but that whole notion that he was a master in television. Very little nuances mean so much. And he had that gift, that ability to know that little things speak volumes.

BITTERMANN: It's incredible. You know, when you think of where the pope grew up and what his background was, where would he get that? I mean, you know, one of the things I've always been astonished at is how he had exactly the right combination of gifts. The fact that he was an actor, he was also a playwright, but also had this spiritual side, a very mystic side to him. But he also had the language gift. He spoke all these languages.

Where did that come from? This, you know, god foresaken little town, 70,000 people lost in Poland, Wadowice. Where did those talents come that suddenly propelled this man right up through the ranks of the church to the papacy?

O'BRIEN: Archbishop Foley is back with us. Maybe he can weigh in on that. I don't know if you heard all of what Jim had to say, but we were talking about, you know -- one of the terms would be renaissance man that the pope was and is. He is still with us. So many talents, so much breadth and depth of knowledge, so many interests. Really, you know, one of those break-the-mold kind of people.

FOLEY: Well, of course, his gift for languages is -- that's true. And he had to speak other languages, because not too many people speak Polish outside of Poland. So he learned German, of course, because Poland was occupied. He learned Russian because Poland was occupied. He also, when he went abroad to study, he studied St. John of the Cross, so he studied Spanish.

He lived at the Belgium College and so he learned to speak French and Flemish. And then he picked up Portuguese because of his interest in Fatima. Of course, he had to speak Italian because he was in Italy, and he also spoke Latin because the classes were always held in Latin. And he just kept going. He spoke Dutch because it was so close to Flemish. So the Slavic languages -- you know, I -- he spoke Ukrainian, he spoke Slovak, Czech, and he's amazing. God knows who is going to be able to follow in those footsteps with those very, very unique gifts.

O'BRIEN: I should say. You know, we've talked about this whole notion of a, you know, a tough act to follow. That kind of trivializes it in a way, doesn't it, Jim Bittermann?

BITTERMANN: Yes, I think it does, and I think John's right that it may not be anything like this pope that follows on. Delia was saying that earlier, too. I mean, what the cardinals will look for in a successor may be something that's very surprising. They may consider all sorts of qualities. Another thing that I forgot to mention -- another quality the pope had was, coming from Eastern Europe, and knowing what he did about the communist world, that when he got to the West, he was one of the first people to start to work for the downfall of the wall.

So I mean, you know, there were a lot of things going on there that he was just the right man at the right moment. One thing I wanted to ask John, you know, the Vatican is famous for the sort of tight Italian control of the curia, and I wonder how the Polish pope fit in as someone behind the scenes at the Vatican. How do you think he fit in with the rest of the curia?

FOLEY: Well, he sailed right over the curia to deal with you directly. And that's why he would have you for lunch, so he could find out what was really going on and talk to you in a relaxed manner about it. So I mean, he didn't try to circumvent the curia, but he exercised his right as the supreme shepherd of the church, as the boss, to call you in and speak to you directly.

So it was very refreshing and it was a beautiful experience, and always a spiritual experience. Because, first, you would go in to pray with him, and he would be deep in prayer and you'd hear him almost grunt. It sounded as if he was carrying on a conversation, almost raising objections to God sometimes. And then after lunch, you would go back into the chapel and pray, and not just a little prayer, you'd be there for five, ten minutes in prayer. So it was inspiring to see this pope in prayer and in action.

O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen.

FOLEY: A superb individual.

O'BRIEN: We're going to put this great conversation to a close for a moment. Maybe we can get you all back and we'll resume it in just a little bit. Archbishop John P. Foley in Philadelphia and Jim Bittermann, of course, in Rome -- Betty.

NGUYEN: We want to go now to Walt Rodgers, who is in Rome as well, to talk about the situation there because while we've been watching as this crowd has gathered in St. Peter's Square to observe the rosary service, are we going to be seeing services throughout the night?

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're certainly going to be seeing people praying throughout the night, Betty, because what we have is the pope hovering very perilously between life and death at this point. And if you have any doubts, all you have to do is listen to the statements that have been coming from the Vatican itself. The vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, said earlier today that the pope was now seeing Christ and touching the Christ.

The pope himself earlier in the day was told the gravity of his situation, and it is said, according to some Vatican officials, that His Holiness John Paul II asked to be read the scripture of the third hour. For those of you familiar with the New Testament, that's the time in which Christ died on the cross. And so if John Paul II did, indeed, ask to be read the scripture of the third hour, the third hour being the time in the afternoon when Jesus died on the cross, then the pope is very aware or was at that time very aware of what his situation is.

And more importantly in all of this is the change that has evolved in the medical bulletins that have come out today. Earlier in the day, we were told the pope was lucid. Now we no longer see that situation there. Indeed, the latest medical bulletins say his medical condition has deteriorated and they cite cardiorespiratory problems. There are very serious problems with the pope's heart at this point, also with his kidney, and what's interesting is that the latest medical bulletin did not talk about the pope's lucidity or consciousness. We're in a very grave situation, very sad for this pope -- Betty?

NGUYEN: And we, of course, will continue to follow it all day long here on CNN. Right now we're going to have to take a short break, but you are watching continuing coverage of the pope's condition. We'll be right back.

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