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Pope's Condition Deteriorating; Schiavo Autopsy Completed

Aired April 01, 2005 - 14:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: You're looking at live pictures of St. Peter's Square, where thousands have come to pray for Pope John Paul II in his ailing condition. We are learning that his condition is deteriorating, according to the Vatican, that his breathing is shallow and his kidneys are failing. So we will continue to follow all the developments as we watch the ailing pope.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The Vatican saying there really is no hope for the pope right now. He's in his apartment. He's surrounded by his closest aides. And he is, according to the accounts we've been getting, up until at least recently, was participating in the prayers being said for him.

All around the world people focusing their attention on the pope's health and condition. Churches everywhere, the focus of prayers and thoughts for John Paul II.

Joining us now in -- I don't know if he's in Vatican City or Rome. Walt Rodgers is new to the scene here.

So, Walt, why don't you tell us where you are and what you're seeing there.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, we're in Rome on the edge of the Vatican. The reason being, of course, that Vatican officials do not want this media circus that close to St. Peter's Square when the pope is in such a grave condition.

The latest medical condition is, as I say, grave. The pope apparently is hovering very close to death.

If you read the straws in the wind and the tea leaves that Vatican officials are saying, the vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini said in a mass in St. Peter's Basilica not long ago, that the pope already sees and is touching the Christ. That's a very telling remark.

Earlier in the day when we were told that his holiness, John Paul II was still lucid, we were also told then that he was apprised of the gravity of his medical condition. It was said, according to Vatican officials, that his holiness then asked to be read the scripture of the third hour.

Now, the scripture of the third hour is the period according to tradition when Jesus on the cross died. That is 3:00 in the afternoon. So if, indeed, the pope was told the gravity of the situation, as we've been told, he asks to have the scripture of the third hour, the period of Jesus' death on the cross, then it's very clear that everyone here has very little to hope for. And indeed, the medical bulletins we've heard earlier or just a short while ago actually said that pope's breathing is very shallow.

Absent now is any mention of whether he's conscious or not. Earlier, they said he was lucid. The latest medical bulletin seemed to avoid that subject. And we know, indeed, that the pope's cardio respiratory system is in deep trouble and he's having heart problems -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Walt, you can't see it, but juxtaposed against you is this incredible scene in St. Peter's, not far from where you are. Can you give us a sense of what people are saying, doing on the street there? Just give us a sense of the mood of the place right now, if you could.

RODGERS: Well, I think the mood, Miles, runs the ful gamut, between those who are deeply aggrieved and concerned that a man as much loved as John Paul II has been is hovering between life and death. That is clearly there. And there are people behind me in St. Peter's Square who are praying.

Others are there because they know this is a moment in history. John Paul II was the first Slavic pope. He has also been one of the longest-serving popes. And so they have this sense that a truly momentous event is occurring. That is to say, one of the great popes in history is about to pass from the scene.

Having said that, there are also tourists here, people who have no sense of either the history or the pope's medical situation, people who probably have no theological conviction who are here just to see what's happening. That's sad, but that's what you find when you a media circus like what we have in front of us now -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: So a mix, of course, of accidental participants in all of this and people who are truly drawn there by an abiding faith.

I'm curious how the word has spread throughout Italy on the media there. How have they been dealing with this? And you've probably have been busy, haven't had too much of a chance to see it. But I'm curious what samplings you've gotten.

RODGERS: The television has had constant bulletins on. If you turn on the radio there are constant bulletins.

And then if you have a cell phone, which everybody in Italy has, you can see them talking to somebody on the phone, constantly getting the latest rumor on the pope's condition. And generally those rumors are all wrong -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. And that's worth reminding folks as we guide you through this. This is something that is happening right before our eyes, and there are occasions when we're going to send you down a cul-de-sac or dead end. And we apologize for that, but we're doing our best to keep our facts straight and keep you informed as the pope's condition worsens.

That was Walt Rodgers just across the line in Rome near the Vatican -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And as we keep you informed we want to give you a handle on exactly what the pope is suffering from.

And this all started, Dr. Gupta, with something that they called septic shock. Take us through that. What is that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: About 24 hours ago we first heard that the pope had significantly high fevers. Then, as typical in this sort of situation, they try to find the source of the fever. And they found, in fact, that it was from the urinary tract, a urinary tract infection.

But what happened after that was there was a couple of episodes where his blood pressure dropped. Significant because that suggested that this bacterial infection had found it ways into the bloodstream.

Septic shock itself is an overwhelming infection leading to this low blood pressure. And more importantly, after that low blood flow to the organs, Betty. Significant, because you don't have as much blood flow to the kidneys, to the liver, and even to the brain. Which is -- you know, when they talk about the pope's condition, they talk about unstable blood pressure.

As Walt Rodgers just mentioned, for a while there, they were also saying that he was lucid. Not saying that anymore, which is not surprising, given the fact that he probably has had low blood pressure and low blood flow to his brain.

NGUYEN: And they're also reporting that his kidney functions have begun to deteriorate. Now, that's a very important point.

GUPTA: It is an important point, and it's the same spectrum of the same -- what we were just talking about here. When your blood pressure is low and the blood flow is low, kidneys are one of the first organs to be affected way in.

Remember, the kidneys are that organ that sort of filter out all the toxins. It's getting a lot of blood flow to it. When the blood flow goes away, the kidneys start to shut down.

We've talked about this so much with Terri Schiavo recently, as you know, Betty. Same sort of process with the pope as well. Kidneys shut down, they don't work anymore. And the pope may accumulate some of those toxins in his body.

NGUYEN: Of course we know the pope is gravely ill. We had learned a little bit earlier today that electrocardiogram had gone flat. Then CNN's Alessio Vinci said, no, no, it is the EEG which deals with brain activity. Explain to me what this means, how it works. GUPTA: And we're still not even sure about that, from what I'm understanding, if the EEG was, in fact, even performed. But these are two very different tests and people do get them confused all the time.

But to be clear, an EEG is an electrical measurement of your brain activity. If an EEG is flat, that means someone is brain dead.

If an EKG is flat, that means someone's heart has stopped working, and that means the person has actually died themselves. And this is an important distinction. It may seem subtle to some people, but brain death versus actual death is an important distinction. Someone can be brain dead and their heart can still be functioning, and they would still theoretically be considered alive until their heart stopped beating.

NGUYEN: I see. OK. And then -- but we are also learning official statements from the Vatican say that the pope is still clinging to life, although the situation is very grave. With what we know, how long can a person stay in that condition?

GUPTA: Not very long. You know, I would say 24 to 48 hours in someone who is healthier than the pope. Remember, the pope's 84 years old, and he has significant medical problems already.

We did some homework on this. Septic shock, even in someone who is relatively healthy, in some of the best intensive care units their chance of survival is not very good, 20, 30 percent maybe. In someone who's of advanced age, existing medical conditions already, and not in an intensive care unit, you know, not -- the chances aren't very good.

It's hard to pinpoint how many hours someone can last like that. Probably not more than a day or so.

NGUYEN: And the pope also has Parkinson's disease. How does that relate to all of this? Does it affect it at all?

GUPTA: It does. And, you know, in some ways it's sort of a vicious cycle.

The Parkinson's disease, to some extent, probably made him a little bit more likely to get an infection just because of the immobility associated with Parkinson's disease. But also, the infection itself can make the symptoms of Parkinson's disease worse. So you get the cycles sort of feeding each other.

It may be a moot point with the pope now, given that he also has septic shock. Because that is going to be the most important health condition for him right now of all these things.

NGUYEN: OK. So, bottom line, with all the information that we know, has the pope gotten to the point -- past the point of no return?

GUPTA: You know, I think every doctor is probably hesitant to say that, but I think that's probably safe to say in this case. Even if they were starting to take aggressive measures now to try an do everything, put him in an intensive care unit, on a breathing machine, all these sorts of things, I think he's reached the point of no return probably already.

NGUYEN: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Miles.

O'BRIEN: Over the years, Pope John Paul II has made his mark, a mark of reconciliation when it comes to other religions, in particular to Jews. During the Second Vatican Council he was among priests who decided that it was important that the Catholic church no longer consider Jews responsible for Christ's death.

In 1998, he released a formal -- or the Vatican under his leadership released a formal apology to Jews for the church's failure to do more to prevent the Holocaust in World War II. And then in 2000, the pope apologized for the Church's mistreatment of Jews, non- Catholic Christians, women, the poor, minorities over the past 2,000 years.

Joining us to talk a little bit more about relationships between the pope and the Catholic Church and Jews is David Blumenthal, who is a professor at Emory University.

Good to have you with us, Rabbi Blumenthal.

RABBI DAVID BLUMENTHAL, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Glad to be here.

O'BRIEN: First of all, you had an opportunity to meet the pope at some point along the way. Why don't you tell us about that first.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

I was invited to teach at the Gregorian Pontifical Institute in Rome in the spring of 1996. That makes it nine years ago.

This was a program to have Jews teaching Jewish studies in the Greg, which is the center of the Jesuit movement. And I was the second professor to be teaching there. I was privileged to teach a very intensive mystical text there.

O'BRIEN: I'm sorry, rabbis teaching Jesuits essentially?

BLUMENTHAL: Yes, indeed.

O'BRIEN: I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that one. But why don't you explain then how you met the pope in the midst of all that.

BLUMENTHAL: As part of our responsibilities there, we were asked by the rector of the Gregorian to meet the pope. And we were taken to the weekly audience which the pope holds on Wednesday mornings. It was Ash Wednesday, as a matter of fact, 1996, where we were present at the audience with the pope on Wednesday morning.

O'BRIEN: And what were your impressions of him at that time? BLUMENTHAL: It's a very moving thing to be in an audience. There were about 6,000 people there. Because of who we were, we were in the front row with the VIPs.

And I had been instructed to introduce myself as Rabbi David Blumenthal. And the pope came off the dais and he walked around shaking hands with people in the first row. And he came to me.

I introduced myself as Rabbi David Blumenthal. And he stopped dead in his tracks. And, of course, the cameras had no idea who I was, but they figured if he stopped it must be something.

And I greeted him, presented him with some books which I had written. And he stopped and we spoke for a few minutes.

And then in a gesture which remains with me to this day, he took my hand, shook my hand, and said, "God bless you." But he did not make the sign of the cross, and he did not invoke the name of Jesus.

Now, you understand that this is the pope in the Vatican on his territory, and he can pretty much do whatever he wants. But this was a reflection of his genuine commitment to, as you mentioned before, reconciliation with the Jewish people that he did not do that.

I introduced him to my wife and then to my son, who were with me, and each one of us he would take our hands, hold our hands, say "God bless you," and not make the sign of the cross and invoke the name of Jesus.

O'BRIEN: And a very -- for you, a very important omission in that statement.

BLUMENTHAL: It certainly was. It had nothing do with me personally. It had to do with the fact that I was clearly there as a rabbi and as a Jew present to the pope.

O'BRIEN: But he fully cognizant of the symbolism, using that term again...

BLUMENTHAL: One hundred percent.

O'BRIEN: ... what he said.

BLUMENTHAL: One hundred percent that he was cognizant of that.

O'BRIEN: All right. Go ahead and finish.

BLUMENTHAL: He himself is a very spiritual person. He radiates a kind of spirituality. And I think that everybody who is there feels that in him, even now as there are hundreds of thousands of people in St. Peter's Square praying for him.

O'BRIEN: All right. Final thought here.

That's sort of the small picture. Big picture here, 1998 in particular, the apology for the Church's failure on behalf of the Church for what didn't happen, quite frankly, during the Holocaust. But a lot of Jews will tell you, why did it take so long to issue that apology.

Does it surprise you, though, that it came from that particular pope?

BLUMENTHAL: No, it does not. This pope had contacts with Jews, Jewish friends. Long, of course, before he was a pope when he was still a child.

He had been active in these causes. He had supported dialogue with Jews. And when the time comes, we certainly hope that his successor will follow in his footsteps.

O'BRIEN: Good way to end it. Rabbi David Blumenthal with Emory University, thanks for your time.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And, of course, we have continuing coverage of the pope and his ailing health. You'll want to stay with CNN.

You're watching LIVE FROM. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

NGUYEN: ... condition, besides the fact that it is very grave and failing?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, Betty, we have no more official information from the Vatican at this time. But as you said, the information that we received a few hours ago was sufficient to get people concerned and cause all of these crowds to start moving into St. Peter's Square in a way that the Vatican has not seen perhaps ever.

I think the news that broke last night with the pope's fever caused some people to start wondering, but today we have really seen a remarkable difference in the mood here at the Vatican. Capped off, of course, by Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the pope's spokesman, who really had to hold back tears when speaking of the holy father this evening -- Betty.

NGUYEN: It's 10:18 at night there at St. Peter's Square. Do you expect these crowds to stay until they learn the latest, until they know what has happened to the pope?

GALLAGHER: Betty, I think they will stay even after that. They are already asking and inquiring what is the latest. They want to know. But they are also engaged in prayer and support for the pope underneath his windows there in St. Peter's Square. And I think that this is a crowd who are here for the pope in a kind of somber and sad mood. But at the same time, in a peaceful mood for him. And they will remain here -- I can only see it getting bigger -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Are any other services slated for tonight?

GALLAGHER: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question, Betty.

NGUYEN: I was wondering if any other services were slated for tonight, because we saw a little bit earlier that they were having the rosary service. With so many people standing vigil, so many people praying, are there going to be any other official services held throughout the night for the pope?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think one thing that your report showed earlier was that there are services being held all over the world. In Vatican City, at St. John Lateran, just a few minutes away from the Vatican, was the official service of tonight presided over by Cardinal Camillo Ruini, which we've seen.

So there are no other official services for tonight. But I imagine that this rosary and this prayer service which is going on beneath the window of the pope in St. Peter's Square will continue throughout the night -- Betty.

NGUYEN: We have learned earlier today that the Vatican press office will remain open throughout the night. Now that is very unusual. Tell us why.

GALLAGHER: Well, that was a big surprise for those of us who work at the Vatican press office every day from about 9:00 until 2:00, when it closes. Those are general hours. And on some days it's open from 11:00 to 1:00.

So the hours of the Vatican are much, much shorter. And the fact that the pope's spokesman announced that the press office would be open all night was another indicator, as I said, in this day which has brought about a huge change in mood. And those are some of the indicators as to why -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And many people are looking for indicators as to give them just some kind of a glimpse as to what the pope's health is at this hour, besides the fact that we know he is not doing very well at all. And again, the Vatican has officially said there is no hope for the holy father.

We have continuing coverage. Right now I'm going to turn it over to Miles.

O'BRIEN: As we continue to track the health and condition of Pope John Paul, who is at death's doorstep, of course yesterday we witnessed the passing of Terri Schiavo. And one of the developments we were telling you about was that her husband Michael Schiavo was insisting -- and it had gone over to the medical examiner's office -- that her body would undergo an autopsy. CNN's Bob Franken joining us now from Pinellas County, Florida, with some early word on the results of that autopsy -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the only word that we have is that they have completed an autopsy, that they began this morning at 8:40 Eastern Time. This is a news release from the medical examiner's office. And I should point out, they are very, very, very discrete here, as you will see, when I pass on the information.

What they told us is that they did the normal autopsy and also included what is described as a board certified neuropathologist, obviously somebody who would deal with matters of the brain and the nervous system. As previously stated, said the news release, the autopsy would include the routines, plus full postmortem X-rays, again, giving some idea of just how significant this is.

Now, as for the remains, they will not comment on whether the remains have been released to Michael Schiavo or when they will be. This is something that will not become public as far as this office is concerned until several weeks, according to the news release, when a final report will be made.

Michael Schiavo, as we have bean reporting extensively, has court approval to take the remains for cremation and then burial in Pennsylvania, very much against the wishes of the blood relatives, the Schindlers, who want her buried here. But we will not be told if the remains have been released. Only that the autopsy has been completed -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: And we've been hearing, Bob, that this bitterly-divided family, each camp, planning their own funerals.

FRANKEN: Well, the funeral with the remains as it stands now will be conducted -- cremated remains will be conducted in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. That is where both Michael Schiavo and his wife, Terri Schiavo, his future wife, Terri Schiavo, grew up.

But the Schindlers have moved down here. They want the burial here. There will be a memorial mass that apparently is going to be a private one. So they, too, will be able to memorialize their daughter who died after that very bitter dispute yesterday.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken interjecting into our coverage of the pope's condition with word on Terri Schiavo's autopsy, which has now, in fact, been completed.

Back with more coverage. We'll continue our vigil here as well for Pope John Paul II in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: These are live pictures in Krakow, Poland. And, of course, John Paul, although he was born in another town of Poland, in southern Poland, spent many, many years there, prewar years, during the war years there, and then ultimately became the archbishop of Krakow in 1964, and -- on his way toward becoming the pontiff. And, of course, in Poland, it is hard to overstate his status as a hero to the people there, as well as religious leader, because of his extremely instrumental role in fighting back the force of communism and siding with the solidarity movement in the 1980s.

There are many who would suggest that, in combination with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher of England, those three leaders at that time beat back communism. And for the people of Poland, John Paul II will always hold a special place in their heart in so many ways -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And he has quite a legacy. We want to talk about that now with Father John Langan with Georgetown University. We'll bring him in.

Father, Langan, what kind of legacy do you think Pope John Paul II will leave?

FATHER JOHN LANGAN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think the first and most important thing is his example of being a great communicator, of someone who was trying to evangelize the modern world, who had a deep engagement with it as a playwright, an intellectual philosopher, theologian. And that's probably the single most important thing. In that respect, he's perhaps like President Reagan as the great communicator, though in a much more intellectual style.

The second big thing is his record as a defender of human rights and human dignity. And that put him at the forefront of opposition to the communist regime in Poland and throughout Eastern Europe. It also is something that lies behind his very strong support of the cause of life, which is a matter of protecting human dignity at its most vulnerable points.

I think also that he was the source of -- or least the shaper of a conservative interpretation of the legacy of Vatican II. And I think that was a stabilizing factor in the course of his pontificate. And also what went with that is a vigorous, but rather conservative approach to ecumenical affairs.

NGUYEN: I was going to mention he's also a man who's broken so many barriers. He was the first pope to visit the White House, the first pope to visit a synagogue, the first pope to visit Cuba, and the most widely traveled pope.

So what do you think are his most -- his greatest accomplishments?

LANGAN: Well, I think the stabilizing of the church, and I think the -- his part in the ending of Soviet domination over his own country, and then the consequent destabilizing of the whole Soviet empire, I think those are the things that will be most -- most remembered.

NGUYEN: And so as you look at these pictures today, as you hear us talk about the pope's condition, people around the world are coming out to pray for this pope. What are your thoughts? LANGAN: Well, I think this is a pope who was present to an enormous number of people, and whom they included in their extended family. They wanted to know what he thought, and they were perfectly willing to quote him and appeal to him. And that kind of involvement is extremely rare.

And I think it will be difficult for anybody to -- to match it. And the next pope will have a lot of problems to work through.

And there's an ongoing personnel crisis in the Church. There's a need to renew the internal administration of the Church. There's the whole question of the secularization of Western Europe, which has involved a number of significant defeats for the Church. And then there's the question of how to relate the Church to the different kind of world order that we have as particularly as envisioned by the Bush administration.

NGUYEN: And what kind of words do you have for the faithful today as they really get word of how the pope is doing and the fact that he essentially is on death's -- or heaven's door, many would say?

LANGAN: Well, I think that the heaven's door metaphor is quite appropriate. I think also that we should remember that life for all of us is a gift and a blessing. And it's not given as a kind of possession that we can cling to forever and ever.

The pope has come from god, goes back to god. And for that we are -- we should be profoundly grateful, that he has come across to us as a man of great integrity and commitment and ready to bear great burdens in hard times. And at the same time, as some of your earlier speakers were mentioning, a person of great warmth.

So that's a wonderful record to leave. And it's -- we now come to an end which is sad, which is parting, but which is also, you know, giving back to god the gift he gave to us.

NGUYEN: Father John Langan, very well put. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is time for us to say good-bye. But our coverage, of course, continues here on CNN. I'm Miles O'Brien. Thanks for having been with us all this afternoon.

And up next, INSIDE POLITICS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Catholics around the world hold vigil for the leading light of the Church. We're following Pope John Paul II's condition in what could be his final hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people in Rome feel that this is a very serious crisis.

ANNOUNCER: The pope and the president. Did two of the most well-known leaders around the globe have a common bond personally or politically?

A lifetime of service to god, the Church, and people in need. His health failing, the pope's remarkable career is remembered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man has been a person who has made a mark on the consciences and the hearts of people everywhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I am Judy Woodruff in Washington.

We are picking up CNN's continuing coverage of Pope John Paul II, his failing health. At last word from the Vatican, the pope's condition had worsened and the outlook does appear grim. We want to get an update now on the pope's condition from CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, we are told by the Vatican the pope's condition has deteriorated. We know that his blood pressure was down. We know his breathing is shallow. All of this adds up to a very, very difficult picture.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Probably an irreversible picture at this time, Judy. I think most people are comfortable saying that.

The Vatican has all but said the exact same thing now. Twenty- four hours we've been following it.

You and I talked about this time yesterday saying that the pope had had an episode of low blood pressure, along with a urinary tract infection. We talked about how concerning that was even back 24 hours ago, that perhaps the infection had spread from his urinary tract into his blood stream. Now we know that he has a condition known as septic shock, where this infection, in fact, has spread throughout his entire body, lowered his blood pressure, and lowered the blood flow to his organs.

No favorable sign whatsoever here, Judy. It does seem like most of what we've been talking about now irreversible.

WOODRUFF: Sanjay, if you could get all the information you'd like to have as a physician -- and you are a trained physician -- from the Vatican, what more would you want to know about his condition right now?

GUPTA: Good question. A few different things.

I want to know what status of his heart is, if they've done an EKG. I would like to know the status of his brain, if they've done an EEG. I would like to know if both of these organs are continuing to function. I'd like to know if he has required any sort of assistance with his breathing, a breathing machine. Also, with regards to his infection, I would like to know just how high his fevers have been, and if he has been able to fight this infection at all. Again, Judy, though, just from everything we're hearing, I'm not sure if any of that really makes a difference at this point. You know, he sounds like, from everything that we're hearing, that he is slowly but surely succumbing to what has become a systemic, an entire body infection -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Sanjay, how much of this is complicated by the fact that this man is 84 years old, he does have Parkinson's disease?

GUPTA: Significantly complicated. Judy, I tried to do some homework on this trying to figure out in the best case scenario, someone who wasn't that sick, someone who was in the best hospital with the best intensive care unit, if they had the degree of septic shock, again, this body-wide infection that pope has, how likely are they to survive that. And only about 20 percent, 20 to 30 percent do people survive under the best of conditions with previously good health.

Obviously that's not the case with the pope here. So it plays a huge factor. But the numbers weren't that great to start with -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: You know, Sanjay, I've heard people commenting today, well, if he's so sick, why isn't he in the hospital? Of course there could be all sorts of reasons for that. But given the condition that we know he's in, would it make that much difference if he were in the hospital?

GUPTA: In a hospital perhaps they could perform some more heroic, quite frankly, is the term for it, heroic measures. Measures such as putting -- using a breathing machine, measures such as using medications to simulate his heart and stimulate his blood pressure.

Apparently, the medical facilities in the Vatican are quite good. But going back to your previous question, if I wanted to collect all the information, I would like to know if any of those things are being done.

My guess, again, based on the statements from the doctor at the Vatican who's making these statements, I don't think that any of these heroic measures appear to be taking place at this time -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: They don't appear to be. All right. Sanjay Gupta.

Dr. Gupta is, of course, CNN's medical correspondent, and we've been turning to him frequently throughout the day to help us understand the pope's condition.

Right now we want to go back to Rome to CNN correspondent Jim Bitterman, who's been following this story all along.

Jim, there looks to be an enormous crowd in St. Peter's Square.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would say probably tens of thousands, Judy. They gathered earlier in the evening for a brief service. It really was an unstructured kind of event, basically reciting the rosary on behalf of the pope.

And then before that, there was a full mass for the pope celebrated by the cardinal vicar of Rome, Camillo Ruini. And in that mass, Cardinal Ruini took a very pessimistic tone at one point during his homily. He said, "The pope already sees and touches the lord. He is already united with our soul savior."

So taking a very pessimistic outlook as far as the pope's chances of recovery -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: So, Jim, is that consistent with the pope being alive?

BITTERMANN: Oh definitely, yes. The Vatican insists the pope is still alive. And there were rumors floating around a little bit earlier this evening, prompted by the Italian media, that he was dead. And, in fact, those were immediately denied by the Vatican. They said he is still alive.

Remember, Judy, that in this operation here, in this church operation, there are very fixed rules about how the pope is pronounced dead. And those rules were fixed by the pope himself.

So basically a number of things have got to happen. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who is the chamberlain, the papal chamberlain, has to be on hand. He has to certify the death after doctors have certified the death. And he does that by asking the pope his -- by calling the pope by his baptismal name three times and then tapping on the pope's forehead. That's the traditional way of determining whether or not the pope is dead.

Medical advances aside, that's the way it's going to be done. And until those procedures are followed, it can't be said the pope is dead.

WOODRUFF: So, Jim, how long after the pope is pronounced dead do you think the public will know?

BITTERMANN: Oh, I think they'll say it right away. I don't think there will be any hesitation at all.

I think word will get out. And that, after all, is what Cardinal Ruini is charged with. That's his responsibility, to get the word out to the people of Rome.

There's no point in saying the pope is still alive when he's not. The fact is that there have been a number of instances in the past. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), for instance, was actually pronounced dead and three days later he was still alive.

So I think that, you know, we have to be very careful about these kinds of things. And there's been a lot of rumors today.

We heard very early in the day today that the pope may have died. So it's gone up and down all day long. And I don't think we should pay too much attention to the rumors. The only way we're going to know that he has passed on is when we get official word from the Vatican.

WOODRUFF: Jim, how much -- I don't know how much of a chance you've had to talk to the people who have turned out there tonight. But how much of this is just loyalty to the Catholic Church, and how much of it is genuine personal affection for this pontiff?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think it's a mixed bag, Judy. I think, you know, for a number of people, this is the only pontiff they've known.

I mean, when you think of the fact that the age of spirituality is something probably around 10 years old, and the pope has been in office 26 -- 26 years, that means that for anyone under the age of 36, basically this is the only pope they have known. And so there is a great deal of loyalty to this pope among very faithful Catholics.

Having said that, of course, the pope has done a lot of controversial things during his pontificate, things that people don't necessarily agree with. And there's more loyalty to the Church being shown by the presence out in the square tonight -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Jim, is there a sense, is there an anxiety, a sense that the Church could change in some dramatic way with the passing of Pope John Paul II, or is there a, would you say, an overall sense of peace that they know the Church is in good hands, whoever is the next pope things will be smooth? I mean, how do you read it?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think, you know, one of the things you have to look at is this is an institution. It is the oldest known institution created by man.

The Church has gone on for 2,000 years, and there's a tremendous sense of tradition and there's a tremendous sense among Catholic faithful of comfort in the Church because it is something that's always there. And one of the things that has been said over the years about changing tone of the Church, for instance, with liberalizing the Church, perhaps bringing women into the ministry and whatnot, the Church is very slow to make changes because they do not want to drive away faithful Catholics who believe that the Church should represent something, something that existed in the past and should go on in the future.

So I don't think there's much anxiety. Maybe some expectation.

And for the real Catholic faithful, I think what they see happening here is a pope who is going to gradually fade away. And another pope will be there to replace him without any concern at all who that pope might be at the moment.

WOODRUFF: All right. Jim Bittermann, who has been reporting faithfully for us throughout this day, yesterday. And, of course, he'll be there for days to come until we know one way or another about the resolution of the pope's condition.

Jim, thanks very much. And I know we're going to be coming back to you often. Here in Washington, meantime, the cardinal, Theodore McCarrick, is saying he's praying for the pope's recovery, or, he says, for god to take him peacefully.

CNN's Joe Johns is at Saint Matthew's Cathedral.

Joe, there has been a mass at Saint Matthew's already?

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Judy. This, of course, is the Cathedral of Saint Matthew's. It is also the home church of Cardinal McCarrick.

He did hold a mass around noon Eastern Time today. It was a mass for the pope.

Now, it was well attended. The church, we're told, holds about a thousand people. It was pretty well filled up.

McCarrick himself was scheduled to go to Rome today on business relating to the papal foundation meetings. Those meetings were expected to last through next week. Apparently, those plans now canceled because of concerns about the pope's health, the fact that he would not be able to participate.

Of course, Cardinal McCarrick, a member of the College of Cardinals, would have a say in the naming of the next pope. He was asked a little while ago out here on the steps, if the holy father is dying, what is the church doing to prepare for the future? Here's how he responded to that on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, WASHINGTON, D.C.: As long as we have a pope, we have a pope. And we hope that the lord will continue to give him the strength that he needs to continue.

And I don't think -- we never give up hope. We never give up hope. The holy father could still be with us, and we hope that he will be. He has a strong heart, and he's always had such strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: McCarrick, of course, right now very involved in comforting the Catholics in the Washington area and through television, of course, around the country. He did just yesterday issue something of an essay that was published in the Catholic newspaper, also on their Web site that said, in part, "As the holy father suffers from his illness and his frailty, I am sure that his greatest suffering must come from his frustration of not being able to communicate as powerfully as he has done in the past" -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Joe, we know that the Catholic Church has been very much a political fixture, if you will, in this city and in this country. Are we hearing today from Catholics about changes they expect in the Catholic Church, or the affect on the politics here in this country with the passing of this pope? JOHNS: Certainly. Just a few minutes ago I was talking to someone about changes and suggestions, that there are changes that do need to be made, particularly in the politics of the Church. Because, as you know, many times in the United States there are a lot of Catholics who don't always disagree -- don't always, I should say, agree with the worldwide doctrine.

Nonetheless, that, I think, is something that people are downplaying at this point. Because most of the concern and attention is focused on the pope's health -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Indeed, it is. Joe Johns, reporting for us from Saint Matthew's Cathedral here in Washington.

We're going to show you some live pictures now in Los Angeles at a live mass that is under way for the pope. It is being presided over by Cardinal Mahoney. We can listen in for just a moment to this extraordinary mass taking place in Los Angeles.

We'll be taking a short break. We'll be back with our continuing coverage of Pope John Paul II.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: These are live pictures from Rome, the Vatican, St. Peter's Square. Tens of thousands of people have gathered as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church is said to be clinging to life.

Pope John Paul II described as in a condition that has deteriorated, shallow breathing, his kidneys are failing after a urinary tract infection. The Vatican has put out the word officially that the health of the pope has been, in their words, "compromised."

CNN is covering the Vatican, covering this story around the world, including here in Washington, where a White House spokesman said today that President Bush and first lady Laura Bush are praying for Pope John Paul II.

Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is standing by right now with more --Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, the president has been getting regular updates about the pope's condition since last night. Andy Card, his chief of staff, came to the residence and told him at about 7:30 last night about the severity of the pope's deteriorating condition. And, of course, as you can imagine, the U.S. embassy at the Holy Sea is in close contact with the Vatican. And here at the White House today a simple yet solemn statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president and Mrs. Bush join people all around the world who are praying for the holy father. The outpouring of love and concern from so many, including millions of Americans, is a testimony to his greatness. During this time, his holiness is in the thoughts and prayers of us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, publicly, the White House will not say whether the president plans to go to any funeral. They say at this point it is inappropriate. But privately, senior officials tell us that they don't see any scenario where the president would not go to a papal funeral in Rome if and when that is something that takes place.

Now, it's interesting to note that Pope John Paul II was the first pope to actually walk through the White House gates. He did that in 1979 when President Carter was here.

But as for President Bush, his relationship with the pope has been strained over something that really has broken apart the president and many world leaders. And that, of course, is the Iraq war.

The last time the president met with the pope, it was at the Vatican in June, almost a year ago. And the president got a papal scolding of sorts about Iraq, particularly over prison abuses at Abu Ghraib in Iraq.

But on social issues, they have mostly agreed, especially on the issue of abortion and their opposition. As a matter of fact, it was the Vatican that first used the phrase "work toward a culture of life" with regard to abortion. And that is, of course, a phrase that the president uses very frequently. And we've even heard it recently with regard to talk about Terri Schiavo.

But on social issues, there have been some strains there as well. When the president first took office, there was a debate over stem cell research. The pope very much wanted the president to outright ban it. And the president instead decided to limit it.

One other note, Judy, that's interesting is that conservatives, by and large, very big supporters of the pope. Why? Because they see him as a really central figure in bringing down communism.

And at the State Department today, Secretary Rice acknowledged that. She said he's a symbol in the desire for freedom, and said that he is one of the most important actors in the great drama, she said, to end tyranny in Europe -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: This pope has been a force in so many ways throughout history for the last quarter of a century. All right. Dana Bash, reporting from the White House.

As Dana initially told us, President Bush and the first lady are described today as praying for the health and the recovery of Pope John Paul II.

We're going to continue our coverage in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WOODRUFF: All eyes are on the Vatican this Friday after Easter as the health of Pope John Paul II has take an rapid turn for the worse. The Vatican describing the pope's condition as serious, even using the word "grave," describing shallow breathing, a serious infection, a kidney infection, in the wake of a number of other health complications.

You can see the crowd is enormous that has gathered there at St. Peter's Square.

With us now once again, CNN's Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher. She's in Rome.

Delia, what are the -- how -- let me put it this way. How long has the Vatican and officials there been preparing for this time?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, that's very difficult to say because there are, of course, no outward preparations, Judy. But we do know that for some time with the pope's health in decline, I would say probably since his release from the hospital, really, the Vatican is always a place of great faith and great hope. And anybody that I talked to, when the pope went into the hospital, wouldn't suggest that there was any sense of preparation for the end.

But I would say since he came out of the hospital and we've seen that sort of rapid deterioration, privately people have begun to at least think about what are going to be some of the changes in the future Church. In terms of actual preparations with Vatican radio or with the liturgical ceremonies that have to happen, those are already in place.

Those are things that are long tradition here at the Vatican, and don't really need to be put into place, as it were. They're already there -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Delia, give us a sense of who makes decisions at a time like this. This pope has been in frail health for some time. Now, of course, his health has turned much -- even more frail, is much more serious. Who's making decisions, and who will be making decisions if he does pass?

GALLAGHER: Well, you have a couple of different elements, Judy. One is the pope's private secretary in terms of making decisions right now regarding the pope's health. He is a longtime serving secretary, 40 years, and a friend of the pope, and really the man who is the man behind the pope, as it were, Stanislaw Dziwisz.

Now, in terms of the Vatican's hierarchy and the Curia, of course you have some of the top Vatican cardinals who are still in their roles as Curia heads. But when the pope passes, then the day-to-day activities of what they call the Interregnum, which is this period when the Catholic Church is without a pope, are run by the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is the chamberlain, a Spanish cardinal, who has the official role of declaring the pope dead and of deciding funeral dates and all the other dates that need to be decided, including the date that the conclave will begin.

You also have Cardinal Camillo Ruini, whom we've seen a lot of in the past few days. He's a very important Italian cardinal, the vicar of Rome. He has a very important role to play in continuing the diocese of Rome.

And there is an American cardinal who retains his position, Cardinal James Stafford, who is the Apostolic Penitentiary. This is a little known part of the Vatican which gives penances to priests, as it were.

Those are the three men that stay in the job and run the Vatican during the Interregnum. There are, of course, always the cardinals and the College of Cardinals who play an important role during that time as well -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Delia, it sounds like an enormous bureaucracy. Is it?

GALLAGHER: Well, it is, yes. But then it's an enormous church. And it takes a lot of people to run it.

On the other hand, there is a sense at the Vatican -- I've always had it working here -- of a sort of family. It's not a bureaucracy where one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

These are all men behind Pope John Paul II put in place by him. And so there is a sense of solidarity and a sense of unity for what they are doing. Of course there is dissension amongst them at times.

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Aired April 1, 2005 - 14:59   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: You're looking at live pictures of St. Peter's Square, where thousands have come to pray for Pope John Paul II in his ailing condition. We are learning that his condition is deteriorating, according to the Vatican, that his breathing is shallow and his kidneys are failing. So we will continue to follow all the developments as we watch the ailing pope.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The Vatican saying there really is no hope for the pope right now. He's in his apartment. He's surrounded by his closest aides. And he is, according to the accounts we've been getting, up until at least recently, was participating in the prayers being said for him.

All around the world people focusing their attention on the pope's health and condition. Churches everywhere, the focus of prayers and thoughts for John Paul II.

Joining us now in -- I don't know if he's in Vatican City or Rome. Walt Rodgers is new to the scene here.

So, Walt, why don't you tell us where you are and what you're seeing there.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, we're in Rome on the edge of the Vatican. The reason being, of course, that Vatican officials do not want this media circus that close to St. Peter's Square when the pope is in such a grave condition.

The latest medical condition is, as I say, grave. The pope apparently is hovering very close to death.

If you read the straws in the wind and the tea leaves that Vatican officials are saying, the vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini said in a mass in St. Peter's Basilica not long ago, that the pope already sees and is touching the Christ. That's a very telling remark.

Earlier in the day when we were told that his holiness, John Paul II was still lucid, we were also told then that he was apprised of the gravity of his medical condition. It was said, according to Vatican officials, that his holiness then asked to be read the scripture of the third hour.

Now, the scripture of the third hour is the period according to tradition when Jesus on the cross died. That is 3:00 in the afternoon. So if, indeed, the pope was told the gravity of the situation, as we've been told, he asks to have the scripture of the third hour, the period of Jesus' death on the cross, then it's very clear that everyone here has very little to hope for. And indeed, the medical bulletins we've heard earlier or just a short while ago actually said that pope's breathing is very shallow.

Absent now is any mention of whether he's conscious or not. Earlier, they said he was lucid. The latest medical bulletin seemed to avoid that subject. And we know, indeed, that the pope's cardio respiratory system is in deep trouble and he's having heart problems -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Walt, you can't see it, but juxtaposed against you is this incredible scene in St. Peter's, not far from where you are. Can you give us a sense of what people are saying, doing on the street there? Just give us a sense of the mood of the place right now, if you could.

RODGERS: Well, I think the mood, Miles, runs the ful gamut, between those who are deeply aggrieved and concerned that a man as much loved as John Paul II has been is hovering between life and death. That is clearly there. And there are people behind me in St. Peter's Square who are praying.

Others are there because they know this is a moment in history. John Paul II was the first Slavic pope. He has also been one of the longest-serving popes. And so they have this sense that a truly momentous event is occurring. That is to say, one of the great popes in history is about to pass from the scene.

Having said that, there are also tourists here, people who have no sense of either the history or the pope's medical situation, people who probably have no theological conviction who are here just to see what's happening. That's sad, but that's what you find when you a media circus like what we have in front of us now -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: So a mix, of course, of accidental participants in all of this and people who are truly drawn there by an abiding faith.

I'm curious how the word has spread throughout Italy on the media there. How have they been dealing with this? And you've probably have been busy, haven't had too much of a chance to see it. But I'm curious what samplings you've gotten.

RODGERS: The television has had constant bulletins on. If you turn on the radio there are constant bulletins.

And then if you have a cell phone, which everybody in Italy has, you can see them talking to somebody on the phone, constantly getting the latest rumor on the pope's condition. And generally those rumors are all wrong -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. And that's worth reminding folks as we guide you through this. This is something that is happening right before our eyes, and there are occasions when we're going to send you down a cul-de-sac or dead end. And we apologize for that, but we're doing our best to keep our facts straight and keep you informed as the pope's condition worsens.

That was Walt Rodgers just across the line in Rome near the Vatican -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And as we keep you informed we want to give you a handle on exactly what the pope is suffering from.

And this all started, Dr. Gupta, with something that they called septic shock. Take us through that. What is that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: About 24 hours ago we first heard that the pope had significantly high fevers. Then, as typical in this sort of situation, they try to find the source of the fever. And they found, in fact, that it was from the urinary tract, a urinary tract infection.

But what happened after that was there was a couple of episodes where his blood pressure dropped. Significant because that suggested that this bacterial infection had found it ways into the bloodstream.

Septic shock itself is an overwhelming infection leading to this low blood pressure. And more importantly, after that low blood flow to the organs, Betty. Significant, because you don't have as much blood flow to the kidneys, to the liver, and even to the brain. Which is -- you know, when they talk about the pope's condition, they talk about unstable blood pressure.

As Walt Rodgers just mentioned, for a while there, they were also saying that he was lucid. Not saying that anymore, which is not surprising, given the fact that he probably has had low blood pressure and low blood flow to his brain.

NGUYEN: And they're also reporting that his kidney functions have begun to deteriorate. Now, that's a very important point.

GUPTA: It is an important point, and it's the same spectrum of the same -- what we were just talking about here. When your blood pressure is low and the blood flow is low, kidneys are one of the first organs to be affected way in.

Remember, the kidneys are that organ that sort of filter out all the toxins. It's getting a lot of blood flow to it. When the blood flow goes away, the kidneys start to shut down.

We've talked about this so much with Terri Schiavo recently, as you know, Betty. Same sort of process with the pope as well. Kidneys shut down, they don't work anymore. And the pope may accumulate some of those toxins in his body.

NGUYEN: Of course we know the pope is gravely ill. We had learned a little bit earlier today that electrocardiogram had gone flat. Then CNN's Alessio Vinci said, no, no, it is the EEG which deals with brain activity. Explain to me what this means, how it works. GUPTA: And we're still not even sure about that, from what I'm understanding, if the EEG was, in fact, even performed. But these are two very different tests and people do get them confused all the time.

But to be clear, an EEG is an electrical measurement of your brain activity. If an EEG is flat, that means someone is brain dead.

If an EKG is flat, that means someone's heart has stopped working, and that means the person has actually died themselves. And this is an important distinction. It may seem subtle to some people, but brain death versus actual death is an important distinction. Someone can be brain dead and their heart can still be functioning, and they would still theoretically be considered alive until their heart stopped beating.

NGUYEN: I see. OK. And then -- but we are also learning official statements from the Vatican say that the pope is still clinging to life, although the situation is very grave. With what we know, how long can a person stay in that condition?

GUPTA: Not very long. You know, I would say 24 to 48 hours in someone who is healthier than the pope. Remember, the pope's 84 years old, and he has significant medical problems already.

We did some homework on this. Septic shock, even in someone who is relatively healthy, in some of the best intensive care units their chance of survival is not very good, 20, 30 percent maybe. In someone who's of advanced age, existing medical conditions already, and not in an intensive care unit, you know, not -- the chances aren't very good.

It's hard to pinpoint how many hours someone can last like that. Probably not more than a day or so.

NGUYEN: And the pope also has Parkinson's disease. How does that relate to all of this? Does it affect it at all?

GUPTA: It does. And, you know, in some ways it's sort of a vicious cycle.

The Parkinson's disease, to some extent, probably made him a little bit more likely to get an infection just because of the immobility associated with Parkinson's disease. But also, the infection itself can make the symptoms of Parkinson's disease worse. So you get the cycles sort of feeding each other.

It may be a moot point with the pope now, given that he also has septic shock. Because that is going to be the most important health condition for him right now of all these things.

NGUYEN: OK. So, bottom line, with all the information that we know, has the pope gotten to the point -- past the point of no return?

GUPTA: You know, I think every doctor is probably hesitant to say that, but I think that's probably safe to say in this case. Even if they were starting to take aggressive measures now to try an do everything, put him in an intensive care unit, on a breathing machine, all these sorts of things, I think he's reached the point of no return probably already.

NGUYEN: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Miles.

O'BRIEN: Over the years, Pope John Paul II has made his mark, a mark of reconciliation when it comes to other religions, in particular to Jews. During the Second Vatican Council he was among priests who decided that it was important that the Catholic church no longer consider Jews responsible for Christ's death.

In 1998, he released a formal -- or the Vatican under his leadership released a formal apology to Jews for the church's failure to do more to prevent the Holocaust in World War II. And then in 2000, the pope apologized for the Church's mistreatment of Jews, non- Catholic Christians, women, the poor, minorities over the past 2,000 years.

Joining us to talk a little bit more about relationships between the pope and the Catholic Church and Jews is David Blumenthal, who is a professor at Emory University.

Good to have you with us, Rabbi Blumenthal.

RABBI DAVID BLUMENTHAL, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Glad to be here.

O'BRIEN: First of all, you had an opportunity to meet the pope at some point along the way. Why don't you tell us about that first.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

I was invited to teach at the Gregorian Pontifical Institute in Rome in the spring of 1996. That makes it nine years ago.

This was a program to have Jews teaching Jewish studies in the Greg, which is the center of the Jesuit movement. And I was the second professor to be teaching there. I was privileged to teach a very intensive mystical text there.

O'BRIEN: I'm sorry, rabbis teaching Jesuits essentially?

BLUMENTHAL: Yes, indeed.

O'BRIEN: I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that one. But why don't you explain then how you met the pope in the midst of all that.

BLUMENTHAL: As part of our responsibilities there, we were asked by the rector of the Gregorian to meet the pope. And we were taken to the weekly audience which the pope holds on Wednesday mornings. It was Ash Wednesday, as a matter of fact, 1996, where we were present at the audience with the pope on Wednesday morning.

O'BRIEN: And what were your impressions of him at that time? BLUMENTHAL: It's a very moving thing to be in an audience. There were about 6,000 people there. Because of who we were, we were in the front row with the VIPs.

And I had been instructed to introduce myself as Rabbi David Blumenthal. And the pope came off the dais and he walked around shaking hands with people in the first row. And he came to me.

I introduced myself as Rabbi David Blumenthal. And he stopped dead in his tracks. And, of course, the cameras had no idea who I was, but they figured if he stopped it must be something.

And I greeted him, presented him with some books which I had written. And he stopped and we spoke for a few minutes.

And then in a gesture which remains with me to this day, he took my hand, shook my hand, and said, "God bless you." But he did not make the sign of the cross, and he did not invoke the name of Jesus.

Now, you understand that this is the pope in the Vatican on his territory, and he can pretty much do whatever he wants. But this was a reflection of his genuine commitment to, as you mentioned before, reconciliation with the Jewish people that he did not do that.

I introduced him to my wife and then to my son, who were with me, and each one of us he would take our hands, hold our hands, say "God bless you," and not make the sign of the cross and invoke the name of Jesus.

O'BRIEN: And a very -- for you, a very important omission in that statement.

BLUMENTHAL: It certainly was. It had nothing do with me personally. It had to do with the fact that I was clearly there as a rabbi and as a Jew present to the pope.

O'BRIEN: But he fully cognizant of the symbolism, using that term again...

BLUMENTHAL: One hundred percent.

O'BRIEN: ... what he said.

BLUMENTHAL: One hundred percent that he was cognizant of that.

O'BRIEN: All right. Go ahead and finish.

BLUMENTHAL: He himself is a very spiritual person. He radiates a kind of spirituality. And I think that everybody who is there feels that in him, even now as there are hundreds of thousands of people in St. Peter's Square praying for him.

O'BRIEN: All right. Final thought here.

That's sort of the small picture. Big picture here, 1998 in particular, the apology for the Church's failure on behalf of the Church for what didn't happen, quite frankly, during the Holocaust. But a lot of Jews will tell you, why did it take so long to issue that apology.

Does it surprise you, though, that it came from that particular pope?

BLUMENTHAL: No, it does not. This pope had contacts with Jews, Jewish friends. Long, of course, before he was a pope when he was still a child.

He had been active in these causes. He had supported dialogue with Jews. And when the time comes, we certainly hope that his successor will follow in his footsteps.

O'BRIEN: Good way to end it. Rabbi David Blumenthal with Emory University, thanks for your time.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And, of course, we have continuing coverage of the pope and his ailing health. You'll want to stay with CNN.

You're watching LIVE FROM. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

NGUYEN: ... condition, besides the fact that it is very grave and failing?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, Betty, we have no more official information from the Vatican at this time. But as you said, the information that we received a few hours ago was sufficient to get people concerned and cause all of these crowds to start moving into St. Peter's Square in a way that the Vatican has not seen perhaps ever.

I think the news that broke last night with the pope's fever caused some people to start wondering, but today we have really seen a remarkable difference in the mood here at the Vatican. Capped off, of course, by Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the pope's spokesman, who really had to hold back tears when speaking of the holy father this evening -- Betty.

NGUYEN: It's 10:18 at night there at St. Peter's Square. Do you expect these crowds to stay until they learn the latest, until they know what has happened to the pope?

GALLAGHER: Betty, I think they will stay even after that. They are already asking and inquiring what is the latest. They want to know. But they are also engaged in prayer and support for the pope underneath his windows there in St. Peter's Square. And I think that this is a crowd who are here for the pope in a kind of somber and sad mood. But at the same time, in a peaceful mood for him. And they will remain here -- I can only see it getting bigger -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Are any other services slated for tonight?

GALLAGHER: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question, Betty.

NGUYEN: I was wondering if any other services were slated for tonight, because we saw a little bit earlier that they were having the rosary service. With so many people standing vigil, so many people praying, are there going to be any other official services held throughout the night for the pope?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think one thing that your report showed earlier was that there are services being held all over the world. In Vatican City, at St. John Lateran, just a few minutes away from the Vatican, was the official service of tonight presided over by Cardinal Camillo Ruini, which we've seen.

So there are no other official services for tonight. But I imagine that this rosary and this prayer service which is going on beneath the window of the pope in St. Peter's Square will continue throughout the night -- Betty.

NGUYEN: We have learned earlier today that the Vatican press office will remain open throughout the night. Now that is very unusual. Tell us why.

GALLAGHER: Well, that was a big surprise for those of us who work at the Vatican press office every day from about 9:00 until 2:00, when it closes. Those are general hours. And on some days it's open from 11:00 to 1:00.

So the hours of the Vatican are much, much shorter. And the fact that the pope's spokesman announced that the press office would be open all night was another indicator, as I said, in this day which has brought about a huge change in mood. And those are some of the indicators as to why -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And many people are looking for indicators as to give them just some kind of a glimpse as to what the pope's health is at this hour, besides the fact that we know he is not doing very well at all. And again, the Vatican has officially said there is no hope for the holy father.

We have continuing coverage. Right now I'm going to turn it over to Miles.

O'BRIEN: As we continue to track the health and condition of Pope John Paul, who is at death's doorstep, of course yesterday we witnessed the passing of Terri Schiavo. And one of the developments we were telling you about was that her husband Michael Schiavo was insisting -- and it had gone over to the medical examiner's office -- that her body would undergo an autopsy. CNN's Bob Franken joining us now from Pinellas County, Florida, with some early word on the results of that autopsy -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the only word that we have is that they have completed an autopsy, that they began this morning at 8:40 Eastern Time. This is a news release from the medical examiner's office. And I should point out, they are very, very, very discrete here, as you will see, when I pass on the information.

What they told us is that they did the normal autopsy and also included what is described as a board certified neuropathologist, obviously somebody who would deal with matters of the brain and the nervous system. As previously stated, said the news release, the autopsy would include the routines, plus full postmortem X-rays, again, giving some idea of just how significant this is.

Now, as for the remains, they will not comment on whether the remains have been released to Michael Schiavo or when they will be. This is something that will not become public as far as this office is concerned until several weeks, according to the news release, when a final report will be made.

Michael Schiavo, as we have bean reporting extensively, has court approval to take the remains for cremation and then burial in Pennsylvania, very much against the wishes of the blood relatives, the Schindlers, who want her buried here. But we will not be told if the remains have been released. Only that the autopsy has been completed -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: And we've been hearing, Bob, that this bitterly-divided family, each camp, planning their own funerals.

FRANKEN: Well, the funeral with the remains as it stands now will be conducted -- cremated remains will be conducted in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. That is where both Michael Schiavo and his wife, Terri Schiavo, his future wife, Terri Schiavo, grew up.

But the Schindlers have moved down here. They want the burial here. There will be a memorial mass that apparently is going to be a private one. So they, too, will be able to memorialize their daughter who died after that very bitter dispute yesterday.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken interjecting into our coverage of the pope's condition with word on Terri Schiavo's autopsy, which has now, in fact, been completed.

Back with more coverage. We'll continue our vigil here as well for Pope John Paul II in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: These are live pictures in Krakow, Poland. And, of course, John Paul, although he was born in another town of Poland, in southern Poland, spent many, many years there, prewar years, during the war years there, and then ultimately became the archbishop of Krakow in 1964, and -- on his way toward becoming the pontiff. And, of course, in Poland, it is hard to overstate his status as a hero to the people there, as well as religious leader, because of his extremely instrumental role in fighting back the force of communism and siding with the solidarity movement in the 1980s.

There are many who would suggest that, in combination with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher of England, those three leaders at that time beat back communism. And for the people of Poland, John Paul II will always hold a special place in their heart in so many ways -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And he has quite a legacy. We want to talk about that now with Father John Langan with Georgetown University. We'll bring him in.

Father, Langan, what kind of legacy do you think Pope John Paul II will leave?

FATHER JOHN LANGAN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think the first and most important thing is his example of being a great communicator, of someone who was trying to evangelize the modern world, who had a deep engagement with it as a playwright, an intellectual philosopher, theologian. And that's probably the single most important thing. In that respect, he's perhaps like President Reagan as the great communicator, though in a much more intellectual style.

The second big thing is his record as a defender of human rights and human dignity. And that put him at the forefront of opposition to the communist regime in Poland and throughout Eastern Europe. It also is something that lies behind his very strong support of the cause of life, which is a matter of protecting human dignity at its most vulnerable points.

I think also that he was the source of -- or least the shaper of a conservative interpretation of the legacy of Vatican II. And I think that was a stabilizing factor in the course of his pontificate. And also what went with that is a vigorous, but rather conservative approach to ecumenical affairs.

NGUYEN: I was going to mention he's also a man who's broken so many barriers. He was the first pope to visit the White House, the first pope to visit a synagogue, the first pope to visit Cuba, and the most widely traveled pope.

So what do you think are his most -- his greatest accomplishments?

LANGAN: Well, I think the stabilizing of the church, and I think the -- his part in the ending of Soviet domination over his own country, and then the consequent destabilizing of the whole Soviet empire, I think those are the things that will be most -- most remembered.

NGUYEN: And so as you look at these pictures today, as you hear us talk about the pope's condition, people around the world are coming out to pray for this pope. What are your thoughts? LANGAN: Well, I think this is a pope who was present to an enormous number of people, and whom they included in their extended family. They wanted to know what he thought, and they were perfectly willing to quote him and appeal to him. And that kind of involvement is extremely rare.

And I think it will be difficult for anybody to -- to match it. And the next pope will have a lot of problems to work through.

And there's an ongoing personnel crisis in the Church. There's a need to renew the internal administration of the Church. There's the whole question of the secularization of Western Europe, which has involved a number of significant defeats for the Church. And then there's the question of how to relate the Church to the different kind of world order that we have as particularly as envisioned by the Bush administration.

NGUYEN: And what kind of words do you have for the faithful today as they really get word of how the pope is doing and the fact that he essentially is on death's -- or heaven's door, many would say?

LANGAN: Well, I think that the heaven's door metaphor is quite appropriate. I think also that we should remember that life for all of us is a gift and a blessing. And it's not given as a kind of possession that we can cling to forever and ever.

The pope has come from god, goes back to god. And for that we are -- we should be profoundly grateful, that he has come across to us as a man of great integrity and commitment and ready to bear great burdens in hard times. And at the same time, as some of your earlier speakers were mentioning, a person of great warmth.

So that's a wonderful record to leave. And it's -- we now come to an end which is sad, which is parting, but which is also, you know, giving back to god the gift he gave to us.

NGUYEN: Father John Langan, very well put. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is time for us to say good-bye. But our coverage, of course, continues here on CNN. I'm Miles O'Brien. Thanks for having been with us all this afternoon.

And up next, INSIDE POLITICS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Catholics around the world hold vigil for the leading light of the Church. We're following Pope John Paul II's condition in what could be his final hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people in Rome feel that this is a very serious crisis.

ANNOUNCER: The pope and the president. Did two of the most well-known leaders around the globe have a common bond personally or politically?

A lifetime of service to god, the Church, and people in need. His health failing, the pope's remarkable career is remembered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man has been a person who has made a mark on the consciences and the hearts of people everywhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I am Judy Woodruff in Washington.

We are picking up CNN's continuing coverage of Pope John Paul II, his failing health. At last word from the Vatican, the pope's condition had worsened and the outlook does appear grim. We want to get an update now on the pope's condition from CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, we are told by the Vatican the pope's condition has deteriorated. We know that his blood pressure was down. We know his breathing is shallow. All of this adds up to a very, very difficult picture.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Probably an irreversible picture at this time, Judy. I think most people are comfortable saying that.

The Vatican has all but said the exact same thing now. Twenty- four hours we've been following it.

You and I talked about this time yesterday saying that the pope had had an episode of low blood pressure, along with a urinary tract infection. We talked about how concerning that was even back 24 hours ago, that perhaps the infection had spread from his urinary tract into his blood stream. Now we know that he has a condition known as septic shock, where this infection, in fact, has spread throughout his entire body, lowered his blood pressure, and lowered the blood flow to his organs.

No favorable sign whatsoever here, Judy. It does seem like most of what we've been talking about now irreversible.

WOODRUFF: Sanjay, if you could get all the information you'd like to have as a physician -- and you are a trained physician -- from the Vatican, what more would you want to know about his condition right now?

GUPTA: Good question. A few different things.

I want to know what status of his heart is, if they've done an EKG. I would like to know the status of his brain, if they've done an EEG. I would like to know if both of these organs are continuing to function. I'd like to know if he has required any sort of assistance with his breathing, a breathing machine. Also, with regards to his infection, I would like to know just how high his fevers have been, and if he has been able to fight this infection at all. Again, Judy, though, just from everything we're hearing, I'm not sure if any of that really makes a difference at this point. You know, he sounds like, from everything that we're hearing, that he is slowly but surely succumbing to what has become a systemic, an entire body infection -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Sanjay, how much of this is complicated by the fact that this man is 84 years old, he does have Parkinson's disease?

GUPTA: Significantly complicated. Judy, I tried to do some homework on this trying to figure out in the best case scenario, someone who wasn't that sick, someone who was in the best hospital with the best intensive care unit, if they had the degree of septic shock, again, this body-wide infection that pope has, how likely are they to survive that. And only about 20 percent, 20 to 30 percent do people survive under the best of conditions with previously good health.

Obviously that's not the case with the pope here. So it plays a huge factor. But the numbers weren't that great to start with -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: You know, Sanjay, I've heard people commenting today, well, if he's so sick, why isn't he in the hospital? Of course there could be all sorts of reasons for that. But given the condition that we know he's in, would it make that much difference if he were in the hospital?

GUPTA: In a hospital perhaps they could perform some more heroic, quite frankly, is the term for it, heroic measures. Measures such as putting -- using a breathing machine, measures such as using medications to simulate his heart and stimulate his blood pressure.

Apparently, the medical facilities in the Vatican are quite good. But going back to your previous question, if I wanted to collect all the information, I would like to know if any of those things are being done.

My guess, again, based on the statements from the doctor at the Vatican who's making these statements, I don't think that any of these heroic measures appear to be taking place at this time -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: They don't appear to be. All right. Sanjay Gupta.

Dr. Gupta is, of course, CNN's medical correspondent, and we've been turning to him frequently throughout the day to help us understand the pope's condition.

Right now we want to go back to Rome to CNN correspondent Jim Bitterman, who's been following this story all along.

Jim, there looks to be an enormous crowd in St. Peter's Square.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would say probably tens of thousands, Judy. They gathered earlier in the evening for a brief service. It really was an unstructured kind of event, basically reciting the rosary on behalf of the pope.

And then before that, there was a full mass for the pope celebrated by the cardinal vicar of Rome, Camillo Ruini. And in that mass, Cardinal Ruini took a very pessimistic tone at one point during his homily. He said, "The pope already sees and touches the lord. He is already united with our soul savior."

So taking a very pessimistic outlook as far as the pope's chances of recovery -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: So, Jim, is that consistent with the pope being alive?

BITTERMANN: Oh definitely, yes. The Vatican insists the pope is still alive. And there were rumors floating around a little bit earlier this evening, prompted by the Italian media, that he was dead. And, in fact, those were immediately denied by the Vatican. They said he is still alive.

Remember, Judy, that in this operation here, in this church operation, there are very fixed rules about how the pope is pronounced dead. And those rules were fixed by the pope himself.

So basically a number of things have got to happen. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who is the chamberlain, the papal chamberlain, has to be on hand. He has to certify the death after doctors have certified the death. And he does that by asking the pope his -- by calling the pope by his baptismal name three times and then tapping on the pope's forehead. That's the traditional way of determining whether or not the pope is dead.

Medical advances aside, that's the way it's going to be done. And until those procedures are followed, it can't be said the pope is dead.

WOODRUFF: So, Jim, how long after the pope is pronounced dead do you think the public will know?

BITTERMANN: Oh, I think they'll say it right away. I don't think there will be any hesitation at all.

I think word will get out. And that, after all, is what Cardinal Ruini is charged with. That's his responsibility, to get the word out to the people of Rome.

There's no point in saying the pope is still alive when he's not. The fact is that there have been a number of instances in the past. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), for instance, was actually pronounced dead and three days later he was still alive.

So I think that, you know, we have to be very careful about these kinds of things. And there's been a lot of rumors today.

We heard very early in the day today that the pope may have died. So it's gone up and down all day long. And I don't think we should pay too much attention to the rumors. The only way we're going to know that he has passed on is when we get official word from the Vatican.

WOODRUFF: Jim, how much -- I don't know how much of a chance you've had to talk to the people who have turned out there tonight. But how much of this is just loyalty to the Catholic Church, and how much of it is genuine personal affection for this pontiff?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think it's a mixed bag, Judy. I think, you know, for a number of people, this is the only pontiff they've known.

I mean, when you think of the fact that the age of spirituality is something probably around 10 years old, and the pope has been in office 26 -- 26 years, that means that for anyone under the age of 36, basically this is the only pope they have known. And so there is a great deal of loyalty to this pope among very faithful Catholics.

Having said that, of course, the pope has done a lot of controversial things during his pontificate, things that people don't necessarily agree with. And there's more loyalty to the Church being shown by the presence out in the square tonight -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Jim, is there a sense, is there an anxiety, a sense that the Church could change in some dramatic way with the passing of Pope John Paul II, or is there a, would you say, an overall sense of peace that they know the Church is in good hands, whoever is the next pope things will be smooth? I mean, how do you read it?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think, you know, one of the things you have to look at is this is an institution. It is the oldest known institution created by man.

The Church has gone on for 2,000 years, and there's a tremendous sense of tradition and there's a tremendous sense among Catholic faithful of comfort in the Church because it is something that's always there. And one of the things that has been said over the years about changing tone of the Church, for instance, with liberalizing the Church, perhaps bringing women into the ministry and whatnot, the Church is very slow to make changes because they do not want to drive away faithful Catholics who believe that the Church should represent something, something that existed in the past and should go on in the future.

So I don't think there's much anxiety. Maybe some expectation.

And for the real Catholic faithful, I think what they see happening here is a pope who is going to gradually fade away. And another pope will be there to replace him without any concern at all who that pope might be at the moment.

WOODRUFF: All right. Jim Bittermann, who has been reporting faithfully for us throughout this day, yesterday. And, of course, he'll be there for days to come until we know one way or another about the resolution of the pope's condition.

Jim, thanks very much. And I know we're going to be coming back to you often. Here in Washington, meantime, the cardinal, Theodore McCarrick, is saying he's praying for the pope's recovery, or, he says, for god to take him peacefully.

CNN's Joe Johns is at Saint Matthew's Cathedral.

Joe, there has been a mass at Saint Matthew's already?

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Judy. This, of course, is the Cathedral of Saint Matthew's. It is also the home church of Cardinal McCarrick.

He did hold a mass around noon Eastern Time today. It was a mass for the pope.

Now, it was well attended. The church, we're told, holds about a thousand people. It was pretty well filled up.

McCarrick himself was scheduled to go to Rome today on business relating to the papal foundation meetings. Those meetings were expected to last through next week. Apparently, those plans now canceled because of concerns about the pope's health, the fact that he would not be able to participate.

Of course, Cardinal McCarrick, a member of the College of Cardinals, would have a say in the naming of the next pope. He was asked a little while ago out here on the steps, if the holy father is dying, what is the church doing to prepare for the future? Here's how he responded to that on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, WASHINGTON, D.C.: As long as we have a pope, we have a pope. And we hope that the lord will continue to give him the strength that he needs to continue.

And I don't think -- we never give up hope. We never give up hope. The holy father could still be with us, and we hope that he will be. He has a strong heart, and he's always had such strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: McCarrick, of course, right now very involved in comforting the Catholics in the Washington area and through television, of course, around the country. He did just yesterday issue something of an essay that was published in the Catholic newspaper, also on their Web site that said, in part, "As the holy father suffers from his illness and his frailty, I am sure that his greatest suffering must come from his frustration of not being able to communicate as powerfully as he has done in the past" -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: And Joe, we know that the Catholic Church has been very much a political fixture, if you will, in this city and in this country. Are we hearing today from Catholics about changes they expect in the Catholic Church, or the affect on the politics here in this country with the passing of this pope? JOHNS: Certainly. Just a few minutes ago I was talking to someone about changes and suggestions, that there are changes that do need to be made, particularly in the politics of the Church. Because, as you know, many times in the United States there are a lot of Catholics who don't always disagree -- don't always, I should say, agree with the worldwide doctrine.

Nonetheless, that, I think, is something that people are downplaying at this point. Because most of the concern and attention is focused on the pope's health -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Indeed, it is. Joe Johns, reporting for us from Saint Matthew's Cathedral here in Washington.

We're going to show you some live pictures now in Los Angeles at a live mass that is under way for the pope. It is being presided over by Cardinal Mahoney. We can listen in for just a moment to this extraordinary mass taking place in Los Angeles.

We'll be taking a short break. We'll be back with our continuing coverage of Pope John Paul II.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: These are live pictures from Rome, the Vatican, St. Peter's Square. Tens of thousands of people have gathered as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church is said to be clinging to life.

Pope John Paul II described as in a condition that has deteriorated, shallow breathing, his kidneys are failing after a urinary tract infection. The Vatican has put out the word officially that the health of the pope has been, in their words, "compromised."

CNN is covering the Vatican, covering this story around the world, including here in Washington, where a White House spokesman said today that President Bush and first lady Laura Bush are praying for Pope John Paul II.

Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is standing by right now with more --Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, the president has been getting regular updates about the pope's condition since last night. Andy Card, his chief of staff, came to the residence and told him at about 7:30 last night about the severity of the pope's deteriorating condition. And, of course, as you can imagine, the U.S. embassy at the Holy Sea is in close contact with the Vatican. And here at the White House today a simple yet solemn statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president and Mrs. Bush join people all around the world who are praying for the holy father. The outpouring of love and concern from so many, including millions of Americans, is a testimony to his greatness. During this time, his holiness is in the thoughts and prayers of us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, publicly, the White House will not say whether the president plans to go to any funeral. They say at this point it is inappropriate. But privately, senior officials tell us that they don't see any scenario where the president would not go to a papal funeral in Rome if and when that is something that takes place.

Now, it's interesting to note that Pope John Paul II was the first pope to actually walk through the White House gates. He did that in 1979 when President Carter was here.

But as for President Bush, his relationship with the pope has been strained over something that really has broken apart the president and many world leaders. And that, of course, is the Iraq war.

The last time the president met with the pope, it was at the Vatican in June, almost a year ago. And the president got a papal scolding of sorts about Iraq, particularly over prison abuses at Abu Ghraib in Iraq.

But on social issues, they have mostly agreed, especially on the issue of abortion and their opposition. As a matter of fact, it was the Vatican that first used the phrase "work toward a culture of life" with regard to abortion. And that is, of course, a phrase that the president uses very frequently. And we've even heard it recently with regard to talk about Terri Schiavo.

But on social issues, there have been some strains there as well. When the president first took office, there was a debate over stem cell research. The pope very much wanted the president to outright ban it. And the president instead decided to limit it.

One other note, Judy, that's interesting is that conservatives, by and large, very big supporters of the pope. Why? Because they see him as a really central figure in bringing down communism.

And at the State Department today, Secretary Rice acknowledged that. She said he's a symbol in the desire for freedom, and said that he is one of the most important actors in the great drama, she said, to end tyranny in Europe -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: This pope has been a force in so many ways throughout history for the last quarter of a century. All right. Dana Bash, reporting from the White House.

As Dana initially told us, President Bush and the first lady are described today as praying for the health and the recovery of Pope John Paul II.

We're going to continue our coverage in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WOODRUFF: All eyes are on the Vatican this Friday after Easter as the health of Pope John Paul II has take an rapid turn for the worse. The Vatican describing the pope's condition as serious, even using the word "grave," describing shallow breathing, a serious infection, a kidney infection, in the wake of a number of other health complications.

You can see the crowd is enormous that has gathered there at St. Peter's Square.

With us now once again, CNN's Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher. She's in Rome.

Delia, what are the -- how -- let me put it this way. How long has the Vatican and officials there been preparing for this time?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, that's very difficult to say because there are, of course, no outward preparations, Judy. But we do know that for some time with the pope's health in decline, I would say probably since his release from the hospital, really, the Vatican is always a place of great faith and great hope. And anybody that I talked to, when the pope went into the hospital, wouldn't suggest that there was any sense of preparation for the end.

But I would say since he came out of the hospital and we've seen that sort of rapid deterioration, privately people have begun to at least think about what are going to be some of the changes in the future Church. In terms of actual preparations with Vatican radio or with the liturgical ceremonies that have to happen, those are already in place.

Those are things that are long tradition here at the Vatican, and don't really need to be put into place, as it were. They're already there -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Delia, give us a sense of who makes decisions at a time like this. This pope has been in frail health for some time. Now, of course, his health has turned much -- even more frail, is much more serious. Who's making decisions, and who will be making decisions if he does pass?

GALLAGHER: Well, you have a couple of different elements, Judy. One is the pope's private secretary in terms of making decisions right now regarding the pope's health. He is a longtime serving secretary, 40 years, and a friend of the pope, and really the man who is the man behind the pope, as it were, Stanislaw Dziwisz.

Now, in terms of the Vatican's hierarchy and the Curia, of course you have some of the top Vatican cardinals who are still in their roles as Curia heads. But when the pope passes, then the day-to-day activities of what they call the Interregnum, which is this period when the Catholic Church is without a pope, are run by the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is the chamberlain, a Spanish cardinal, who has the official role of declaring the pope dead and of deciding funeral dates and all the other dates that need to be decided, including the date that the conclave will begin.

You also have Cardinal Camillo Ruini, whom we've seen a lot of in the past few days. He's a very important Italian cardinal, the vicar of Rome. He has a very important role to play in continuing the diocese of Rome.

And there is an American cardinal who retains his position, Cardinal James Stafford, who is the Apostolic Penitentiary. This is a little known part of the Vatican which gives penances to priests, as it were.

Those are the three men that stay in the job and run the Vatican during the Interregnum. There are, of course, always the cardinals and the College of Cardinals who play an important role during that time as well -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Delia, it sounds like an enormous bureaucracy. Is it?

GALLAGHER: Well, it is, yes. But then it's an enormous church. And it takes a lot of people to run it.

On the other hand, there is a sense at the Vatican -- I've always had it working here -- of a sort of family. It's not a bureaucracy where one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

These are all men behind Pope John Paul II put in place by him. And so there is a sense of solidarity and a sense of unity for what they are doing. Of course there is dissension amongst them at times.

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