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Pilgrims Wait in Line Hours to See Pope; Burial of Pope Steeped in Traditions; Peter Jennings Diagnosed with Lung Cancer

Aired April 05, 2005 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Live pictures from the Vatican as the faithful pay respects to the pope. This hour, what traditions will be followed this week and what church traditions might change as the church picks a new leader.
BETTY NGUYEN, CO-HOST: When a would-be assassin struck, she was known as the baby who saved the pope's life. We catch up with the young woman the world called Baby Sara.

PHILLIPS: Unsettling news for ABC anchorman Peter Jennings. He's facing a battle with lung cancer.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.

NGUYEN: And I'm Betty Nguyen in for Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

PHILLIPS: So how do you move two million people, maybe three million, through one church, even a huge church, in four days? Quickly, respectfully, unobtrusively, but quickly.

Pilgrims who continue to line up for miles and wait for hours to say personal farewells to Pope John Paul II and maybe snap a photo are being nudged along at a pretty brisk pace. The Vatican also plans to keep St. Peter's Basilica open 22 hours a day, up from 21 that was announced yesterday, to accommodate the crowds before the pontiff's funeral Friday morning.

The cardinals met again today to work out arrangements, but they didn't set a date for the crucial meeting where they'll elect John Paul's successor. Now by Vatican law, there's a five-day window for the opening of the conclave, in this case, from April 17 to the 22nd.

We do know that there will be a couple breaks from tradition, one instituted by John Paul himself. A papal spokesman says that the cardinals will not be locked in the Sistine Chapel while they deliberate and vote, but they will stay in the Vatican, and they will be barred from any contact with the outside world.

So when they'll be finished, well, everybody knows to look for white smoke. But the last time, in 1978 it looked a little gray and many people were confused. So in 2005, bells will ring as well. This way, says the Vatican's master of ceremonies for the liturgy, even journalists will know.

Well, there's fear in Rome that the city's population could essentially double this week, not even counting a couple hundred VIP's and several thousand journalists. One of those is our own Diana Muriel.

Hi, Diana.

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra. Yes, joining me here, just by the queue, as they head towards the basilica -- the point that I'm at, these people have been waiting, some of them, for about eight hours.

In the last half an hour or so, the temperature has dropped, which has provided some relief to these tens of thousands of people. But from here, they've still got another two, maybe even three hours, before they get inside the basilica to see the body of Pope John Paul II. And the queue has been like this for much of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MURIEL (voice-over): The crowd in St. Peter's Square steadily growing, stretching back for more than a mile. They come from all over the country, all over the world, Polish Canadian Annette Boguslawski.

ANNETTE BOGUSLAWSKI, POLISH-CANADIAN PILGRIM: We've been here for, I would say, a little bit over two hours. And it feels like it's been a few minutes.

MURIEL: This Argentinean nun, waiting in line since 7 a.m.

SISTER CONSOLATA, ARGENTINE PILGRIM: Even though everyone has to wait for hours, nobody minds.

MURIEL: The wait may be long, but when the line moves, you've got to keep up.

By 10 a.m., it's starting to get hot. The authorities hand out bottles of water to those in the crowd, keeping the mood calm, good humored.

(on camera) And still they come in their tens of thousands. The long wait, almost a penance for some of these pilgrims, here to say good-bye to their pope.

(voice-over) More than two million, maybe as many as four million, are expected over the next few days, proving a headache for the authorities. Streets are barricaded, extra police bused in to manage the crowds.

Free shuttle buses, too, taking the pilgrims from the city's train stations to the center of town. Free accommodation also at newly-erected tent cities.

As Rome's hotels fill up and put up their prices, a makeshift dormitory has also been established in an exhibition hall.

DIDIER HELSEN, BELGIAN PILGRIM: We don't have enough money to stay in expensive hotels. As we heard there was cheaper accommodation, free accommodation.

MURIEL: It's basic, but according to this Italian girl, that's all part of the experience.

GAIA ALDI, ITALIAN PILGRIM: Because if we choose an hotel or something there it was just a trip in Rome. And this way, we -- we stay here to pray, it's the -- the best thing that we can do now.

MURIEL: So a spiritual experience then for many on this final pilgrimage for their pope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURIEL: And given the length of the wait in this line, it's also something of an endurance test -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Diana Muriel, live there in Rome. We'll check in with you throughout the day. Thank you.

NGUYEN: We're still learning fascinating details surrounding the papal transition in general and John Paul II's rites and rituals in particular. CNN Vatican analyst John Allen joins us again to explain and expound. He is the Rome correspondent for the "National Catholic Reporter."

John, I want to ask you, today we learned that the pope's body was not embalmed. Is that unusual?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I think it is. I mean, we know in the past, with other recent popes, Pius XII, for example, John XXIII, Paul VI, those bodies were embalmed before they laid in state, certainly before they were buried.

What's not clear is that the Vatican spokesperson today during the press conference indicated the body had not yet been embalmed. It's not clear if that's going to be done at some future point, perhaps in that period of time between the public viewing and the beginning of the funeral and ultimately the burial.

So you know, but this is the way this works. I mean, you know, while the Vatican has a fairly detailed blueprint for these sorts of things, there are always some minor variations each time, which is -- sort of adds to -- adds to the interest.

NGUYEN: We also have learned that the pope has requested that he be buried in the ground. Is that something that we haven't seen a lot with popes in the past?

ALLEN: Yes, that's right. Almost all of the popes who were buried in that grotto beneath the main floor of St. Peter's Basilica are in what's called a sarcophagus -- that's a large, metal container -- and they're above ground. There's only a handful, a very small number that have been buried in the ground.

And of course, we don't know, we haven't been told what the logic, what John Paul's logic was for that particular choice. We do know, based on reports this afternoon, that apparently some Poles are now trying to organize an expedition to Rome to bring some Polish soil to include in the space that John Paul is going to be buried in.

NGUYEN: Very interesting. And I also find it fascinating that Pope John Paul II will be buried in layers of coffins. How does that work?

ALLEN: Well, essentially, what happens is that the pope is initially placed in a simple wooden casket. And that's the casket you will see at the funeral mass on Friday, that will be there in the middle of St. Peter's Square.

But before the actual burial, that wooden casket is then placed in a casket of metal, which is then placed in a thicker wooden casket. And therefore, those three caskets, then, are what is eventually placed in his spot.

It's probably worth noting that that spot in the grotto that John Paul II will be occupying was the spot that was vacated by one of his predecessors, Pope John XXIII, who was beatified by John Paul II. And when a pope is beatified, his remains are then brought up to the main level of St. Peter's Basilica and placed beneath one of the altars.

NGUYEN: There's a lot of tradition here. Also the fact that before that cypress casket is closed or sealed, there are articles that will be placed inside. Tell us what those are.

ALLEN: Well, one thing will be a veil, which is placed over the face of the pope. There will also be a parchment, listing the -- essentially, the main points of his life, the main dates of his life.

There will also be a bag of coins. The Vatican strikes coins with the pope's likeness for each year of his reign. By the way, interestingly, there's also a Vatican euro. Each year, the Vatican puts out a set of euro coins, although they're collectors items rather than the kind of thing you use to buy a cappuccino.

And finally, then, will be the remains of that fisherman's ring, which is one of the chief symbols of the papal office. You'll remember, of course, the ring is actually smashed when the pope is dead, but the bits are gathered together and placed in a container. And those also go into the casket with the deceased pope.

NGUYEN: Very fascinating details. John Allen, the CNN Vatican analyst, we thank you for your insights.

ALLEN: You're very welcome.

NGUYEN: Sure. He is the last of the longtime big three anchors still on the job. But now he faces his toughest assignment, a battle with cancer.

And later, the Patriot Act, a controversial law enacted in response to September 11. Should it be renewed? It's the question of the day on Capitol Hill. And we've got the details.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: It's a health crisis for one of the biggest names in broadcast news today. ABC announced longtime evening anchorman Peter Jennings has cancer. For more now, let's go live to CNN's Adaora Udoji in New York.

Adaora, what do you know?

ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, apparently, Peter Jennings just found out about his cancer diagnosis yesterday, at least according to a spokesman.

And then we're also told that he passed that information on to his staff in an e-mail today, writing, quote, "I've been diagnosed with lung cancer. Yes, it was quite a surprise," Peter Jennings writes. "As you all know, this is a challenge. I begin chemotherapy next week. I will continue to do the broadcast. There will be good days and bad, which means that some days I may be cranky and some days really cranky."

An ABC spokesman also told us, Betty, that Jennings will do the broadcast tonight. We're told he will address his diagnosis, that his treatment is to begin on Monday. It comes, they said, after he had been feeling ill the past couple of months.

As you may recall, Betty, he did not go and cover the tsunami tragedy and did not go to cover the passing of the pope this week. He is here in New York, and we're sure to hear more from him tonight about his diagnosis of lung cancer -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Adaora, you mentioned that Peter Jennings just found out yesterday that he has lung cancer. But do we know how far along the cancer is, what stage of cancer it is?

UDOJI: Betty, they have not released any other details than those we just expressed, that were written in an e-mail. As we were told not long ago from a spokesman at ABC that Peter Jennings would be talking about his diagnosis on the show tonight, that's ABC News, "World News Tonight," that he will be talking about and perhaps be sharing a few more details, on exactly what the diagnosis, what stage of the cancer he is in and what his expectation is of what's going to happen next week when he starts chemotherapy -- Betty.

NGUYEN: All right. Adaora Udoji in New York for us, thank you, Adaora -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Lung cancer is the most common form of cancer in the U.S. today, according to the government, that is. We'll talk more about the disease and how to treat it with our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Thanks for coming in today.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you. PHILLIPS: All right. The statement just came out a few minutes ago, saying that Peter Jennings will still do "World News Tonight," however chemo starts on Monday. Now, you know, I know, chemo, I mean it wipes you out.

GUPTA: It does. And he's going to -- as he said in the statement, he's going to have some good days and some bad days. There are days where he's going to be cranky, less cranky on other days.

It does a lot of things. You know, chemotherapy is a very toxic drug. A lot of people know that. It kills tumor cells but it also affects a lot of other cells in the body, as well. Most people recognize that, what happens is tumor cells divides very quickly. And that's how chemo works, by attacking those cells.

Other cells that divide very quickly are the cells that are in your hair, cells that are in your stomach and your G.I. tract, which is why, Kyra, people lose their hair, people get nauseated. They have vomiting, you know, diarrhea associated with chemotherapy, as well. They can get ulcers in their mouth, all sorts of different things. It can make you feel pretty miserable.

PHILLIPS: Now part -- more than -- obviously, there were a number of things that happened before the diagnosis came to light. He wasn't feeling well for quite awhile. That's why he didn't take a lot of the trips to cover the tsunami and other stories. So probably had a lot of chest x-rays. I mean, it's a process to finally...

GUPTA: There is a process.

PHILLIPS: OK.

GUPTA: Yes. And it's unclear -- it's well known I think, that he was a smoker for some time. Apparently, he did quit some time ago. But he was a smoker. So typically, what happens, he may have had some shortness of breath. He may have had a persistent cough, any of those sorts of symptoms.

Or he may have just gotten a routine chest X-ray to check up on him and seen a spot on that X-ray. Subsequently, got a CT scan, which is a more sophisticated scan. And then, if the spot was still there, to basically take a little needle and remove some of that -- those cells to try and figure out, was this cancer.

Questions that we don't yet know the answer to and we may find out tonight, how advanced is this? Did it spread to his lymph nodes? That's a critical important piece of information? Did it spread to other parts of his body? How advanced was it at the time that it was diagnosed?

PHILLIPS: And just real quickly, I mean, a lot of people are probably wondering, can he beat this? What are the chances that he can beat this?

GUPTA: Well, sure, he can beat this. I think most doctors would say that. But the data is not very favorable, I would say that as well, for all people with lung cancer.

Most people have a specific type of lung cancer called non-small cell. The name is not that important, but about 75 to 80 percent of people have that type of cancer. Six out of 10 people, even with therapy, die within the first year. Seven out of 10 to eight out of 10 die within a couple years.

Of course there are a few, that means as well, Kyra, that survive, go on to survive. Five-year survival, about 50 percent in some -- some people.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll follow the treatment and his condition. Thanks, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM, will the next pope change the church's stance on divorce, homosexuality, or marriage of clergy? A priest speaks out on reforming tradition.

Later on LIVE FROM, a bomb explodes in a parking garage. Only a drill, but is America ready for the real thing? In depth on training for terror.

Also, later on LIVE FROM, wedding day delay. But now, one more thing goes wrong for Prince Charles and Camilla.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Want to bring you up to date on a story we've been following. This just in. Beachgoers can get back into the water in some south Florida areas, off the beaches there, because sharks had recently, as you can see in this video, been swarming just off shore, off of several beaches, including Del Ray, Deerfield Peace, Boca Raton and Palm Beach.

To get an update on the situation there, we want to go on the phone now to Bob Hueter. He is the director at the Center for Shark Research in Sarasota, Florida.

First thing I want to ask you is what type of shark are we looking at and why are they in that area?

BOB HUETER, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR SHARK RESEARCH: Well, the sharks that I have seen in the video are primarily two species: the black tip shark and the spinner shark. They look very similar. These are sharks -- they don't get to be huge. These are sharks that get to be about seven to maybe nine feet long at the most.

And they're in the area because they're feeding. This is their spring migration time, when they're moving north, to come into coastal waters. And they're concentrated up close to shore where all the food is.

NGUYEN: We are looking at video of this. And there seems to be hundreds of these sharks. Do they travel in such large packs?

HUETER: Normally, it's hard to see them in these big groups. They -- it's not -- it's not that they travel like this all year round, but during the spring and fall times, when they're moving through an area like this area, off Florida, and the water is clear, then they can be seen in these large groups. And it's pretty spectacular, but it's nothing that signals anything unusual happening in the environment.

NGUYEN: You are right about that, it is a spectacular to see this video. It's also a bit frightening when you consider this is so close to the beaches there, several beaches there in Florida. You say they are feeding. Are they any threat to humans in the water?

HUETER: Well, only in the sense that if we had people in the water with the sharks, altogether, while the sharks are feeding, than there is -- there's certainly a possibility of someone getting bitten.

These are not -- these are not really man-eating sharks in the sense that these are very large predators. But this is a species that in the summertime in Florida will sometimes bite the hands of surfers or swimmers. And so it's probably prudent that we don't mix people with sharks at this time when they're all -- when they're over there.

NGUYEN: All right. Let's be very clear about this. While we are watching the video of these hundreds of sharks right off the shores there in Florida, the news today is that these beaches have been reopened. Have the sharks gone away? Are they out of the area?

HUETER: Well, I don't know. Because I'm speaking to you from the Gulf of Mexico side of Florida. But I can tell you that sharks are always in the ocean. I mean, having the sharks out there isn't anything particularly new.

But if they are very close to the beach and if they are in great numbers, than it's probably prudent to try to avoid having swimmers in there, until the sharks pass. And that will happen fairly soon.

NGUYEN: How long do they usually stay in the area?

HUETER: They're going to be off the coast of Florida all summer long. But as far as these large, visible groups, this will probably be over within a matter of a couple weeks and then, you know, they'll move on, they'll disperse, and it just won't be as spectacular as it is now.

NGUYEN: Yes, it is quite a spectacular sight to see. But again, these sharks are not known as man eaters, but they have been blamed for biting people. So be very careful in the waters off the coast of Florida, although the latest news, according to Associated Press, is that beachgoers can get back into the water.

We appreciate your time with us today, Bob Hueter, director of the Center for the Shark -- for Shark Research there in Sarasota, Florida. Thank you.

HUETER: You're welcome.

NGUYEN: We will have more LIVE FROM coming up right after this break. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: As Catholics around the world mourn the loss of John Paul II, many are left with ambivalent feelings about the church he leaves behind.

CNN national correspondent Kelly Wallace talked with one man who experienced seismic shifts in his faith between the pope's 1979 and 1995 visits to New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Daniel Durante is 40 now. But, oh, how he remembers being a young student at a Catholic seminary school, racing down to the field at Shea Stadium to see Pope John Paul II.

DANIEL DURANTE, CATHOLIC: We were all screaming, "Long live the pope, long live the pope." And it was -- it was just exhilarating.

WALLACE: And the pope, it appears, heard him and his friends.

DURANTE: We were screaming so loud that he kind of looked and smiled and did one of these numbers. And we were floored, you know -- you know, when he gave us that blessing.

WALLACE: But 16 years later, when the pope returned to New York City, Durante, who left the seminary school after a year, did not race to see him. The son of religious parents was profiled in "The New York Times" back then, a disaffected Catholic who still practiced his faith, but questioned the pope's conservative beliefs regarding celibacy for priests, the ordination of women, premarital sex.

He recalls taking some heat for his words.

DURANTE: Turning around and saying I don't necessarily agree with, you know, the Catholic Church's position on this, you know, there are a lot of people that don't agree with not agreeing with the pope. I don't agree with 100 percent of anything anybody has to say. I think that, you know, it's a dangerous thing when you let yourself be led blindly. So you have to kind of look at things and think.

WALLACE: Since then, his frustrations with the church have grown. He talks about a priest telling him how he would not baptize his now 4-year-old son because Durante had been to other churches, not that one -- and how a deeply religious friend was excommunicated after a divorce.

DURANTE: And that just reeks of a church that doesn't see change. WALLACE: And while Durante hopes for what he calls a more open- minded pope and church in the future, he says he still feels the loss of John Paul. He cried when he learned the pope had died. As he put it, it's like losing the uncle you didn't always get along with.

DURANTE: I look at him now. Socially, he's magnificent, he's a giant. He globally has probably done more for social justice than any other individual you could point to. He was right on the money there.

Catholic Church and its structure, I'm not so sure that I agree.

WALLACE: Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Like losing the uncle you didn't always get along with. If recent polls are any indication, Daniel Durante expresses feelings that many U.S. Catholics would echo about the pope.

But it's one thing to be a layperson questioning church doctrine and another thing entirely if you happen to be a priest who disagrees with Vatican policies.

Father Charles Curran lost his teaching job at Catholic University in Washington for publicly flouting some key church teachings. He's recently written a book on those teachings called "The Moral Theology of Pope John Paul II." He joins us today from Dallas to talk about the disconnect that some American Catholics may feel about the church.

Good to see you, Father.

FATHER CHARLES CURRAN, AUTHOR, "THE MORAL THEOLOGY OF POPE JOHN PAUL II": Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, tell us what happened at Catholic University as you were teaching moral theology. What happened?

CURRAN: Well, in 1979, I was informed that the Vatican was investigating my writings. And after a seven-year back and forth discussion, they concluded that I was neither suitable, nor eligible, to be a Catholic theologian...

PHILLIPS: And...

CURRAN: ... primarily because of my positions on sexuality, contraception, sterilization, divorce, homosexuality.

PHILLIPS: Because you believed in change? You believed in getting in touch with the year 2000-plus?

CURRAN: Right, except, let's be a little careful there. Because some things in the year 2000-plus are good, and some things are not good. And the church always has to go and try to discern what is the good and what isn't. PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about that. And let's talk about how you have basically decided what you feel is good and what needs to change. If we were to look back in history and talk about democracy, slavery, you pointed out even interest on loans, there are some big changes that have happened in the Catholic Church. Recap those for us.

CURRAN: Oh, there's no doubt there has been, especially in the area of moral teaching, there has been significant teaching change.

In the middle of the 19th century, the popes condemned democracy. They claimed that freedom of conscience was a sewer into which all garbage flows. That was in a papal encyclical, those words.

It took the Catholic Church 1900 years to condemn slavery. It was only in the end of the 19th Century that the institution of slavery was condemned.

For 16 centuries, we accepted the fact that you could not take interest on a loan. And this had a strong scriptural basis. It was heavily in the Hebrew Bible. It was in the -- at least the Christian understanding of the New Testament that it said, "Lend, expecting nothing in return."

PHILLIPS: Now, here we are, years and years later. Changes have been made. And now there are so many issues at hand that American Catholics specifically are saying, "Look, I love my church. I love being a Catholic, but I just don't understand, for example, why women can't be priests."

This is something you support. Why?

CURRAN: Well, basically, the argument against the ordination of women, which I disagree with, is that Jesus didn't ordain any women. But let's face it, if you follow that out, Jesus didn't ordain -- well, he didn't really ordain anybody, but he certainly didn't ordain any non-Semites. So what are you going to do about that?

As I say, you would have a stronger thing saying that you could not take interest on a loan. But it seems to me that -- well, first of all, with regard to the ordination of women, that the New Testament itself gives a significant role to women. I mean, Mary Magdalene was the first apostle. Mary Magdalene was the one who told the other apostles, that gave the good news that Jesus rose from the dead.

But as time went on, because of the sociological culture of the time, women did not have positions of ruling or authority in any society, and that's why they didn't have them in the church.

PHILLIPS: So Father...

CURRAN: So in my judgment this is just a sociological matter that can and should change when our understanding of the role of women changes.

PHILLIPS: And when you talk about the sociological changes, you have strong feelings about contraception, homosexuality, women as priests, priests marrying, divorce. Let me ask you this, because time is running short. If change doesn't take place, if things don't become more progressive in these areas, what could happen to the Catholic Church? What could happen to Catholic believers?

CURRAN: Well, first of all it seems to me when you deal with these questions, which, in my judgment and the judgment of most people are what are called non-infallible teachings, that one can disagree with them and still be a loyal Roman Catholic.

I disagree with them. I'm still a loyal Roman Catholic. I hope to see change come about from the official church. But many times, change comes from below.

I mean, let's face it, in terms of the basic reality, the Catholic Church has already changed its teaching on artificial contraception. Eighty-five to 90 percent of Catholics have disagreed with a papal teaching in theory and practice.

PHILLIPS: Father, I promise this is not spiritual intervention that's doing this, but we're about to lose you, via satellite. I'm going to encourage everybody to check out your book "The Moral Theology of Pope John Paul II."

Father Charles Curran, great to have time with you today, sir. Thank you so much.

CURRAN: Nice to be with you.

NGUYEN: A self-professed, spiritual brother of the late pope has reportedly been told he can't attend the pope's funeral. Mehmet Ali Agca shot and very nearly killed the pontiff in 1981. Two years later, John Paul visited Agca in prison to personally deliver his forgiveness. And many years after that, Agca was released. He is now imprisoned in Turkey for unrelated crimes, and Reuters news service is reporting his request to make a brief trip to Rome has been rejected.

When the pope was attacked on that unforgettable day in his own front yard, as it were, St. Peter's Square, he just embraced a toddler, and that simple act of love may have saved his life. Today, the toddler is expecting a child of her own any day now, and CNN's Alessio Vinci reports the death of John Paul II makes this an especially emotional time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago.

It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in St. Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.

SARA BARTOLI (through translator): Spontaneously, I'd say that I did save his life but actually perhaps he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit like a father would.

VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life.

Today, Sara Bartoli is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.

BARTOLI (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me they were scared about what happened to me.

VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.

BARTOLI (through translator): I realized that after 24 years something opened up and I cried and only a few days later he died and all my emotions overflowed.

VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now, Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.

Sara is now married and nine months' pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.

BARTOLI (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and the future.

VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: In other news, are you overconfident about retirement? Well, ahead on LIVE FROM, what most Americans don't know about saving enough green for those golden years.

Plus, debating the Patriot Act. Should a controversial set of laws be renewed? We'll go live to Washington for more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Stories now in the news. Hundreds of thousands of mourners are waiting as long as eight hours to see the body of Pope John Paul II as it lies in state in St. Peter's Basilica. It's still undecided when the conclave will begin to select a new pope. We'll go live to Rome in just about 30 minutes. Meantime, public mourning for the pope continues all around the world. In Washington today, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was among those visiting the Vatican Embassy to add her signature to the book of condolences. She will join the U.S. delegation led by the president and Mrs. Bush due to attend Friday's funeral mass at St. Peter's Basilica.

And some unexpected pictures from Cuba. Take a look at this, where President Castro shed his usual olive fatigues and put on a black suit to visit the Vatican Embassy in Havana. In his condolences, the longtime communist leader wrote, "Your departure pains us, dear friend." In 1998, John Paul II became the first pope ever to visit Cuba, which was officially atheist until 1992.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

PHILLIPS: News across America now. The son of Michael Jackson's former maid is facing more cross examination in the pop star's child molestation trial today. The man, now 24 years old, testified yesterday that Jackson fondled him three times as a boy and gave him hush money. Jackson is on trial, charged with molesting another boy. He denies all the charges.

NGUYEN: Voters in Kansas are taking up same-sex marriage today. They are deciding whether to approve a statewide constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriages. Thirteen other states have passed a constitutional ban outlawing same-sex couples from marrying.

And look at this. Drenching rains are causing big problems up and down the Delaware River. The river has spilled over its banks, forcing thousands of people in Trenton, New Jersey, alone, to evacuate. Damage estimates in New Jersey are nearing $30 million and the flooding is blamed for one death in New York.

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: In our Security Watch, a federal report on the collapse and rescue of people from the World Trade Center in 2001 is due out today. Sources say the study highlights the limited ability that rescuers had reaching higher floors and that some people may have stayed in the buildings too long to escape. The findings are part of three reports issued by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

Well, the State Department is placing a $5 million bounty on the head of the suspect in the first World Trade Center bombing. That man is Abdul Rahman Yasin. The Iraqi-American is wanted for allegedly helping build the bomb used in the 1993 attack which killed six people. The U.S. believes that Yasin is hiding out near Samarra, just north of Iraq's capital city.

NGUYEN: Testimony wrapped up just a short time ago on Capitol Hill over a highly controversial law adopted after the September 11th attacks. That is the U.S. Patriot Act. Several provisions are set to expire at the end of the year and two of the government's officials are urging their renewal.

CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena is following the developments live in Washington and she joins us with the latest. Hi there, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Betty. Well, both men are calling it a vital weapon in the war on terror. Now as you said, the act was passed shortly after the September 11th attacks and it did give law enforcement broad new powers in terrorism investigations. Most notably, it broke down the wall that existed between criminal and terrorism investigations and allowed for the sharing of information.

Now while that part of the act has a lot of support, there are some parts of this law that have both liberals and conservatives very concerned. And there's a lot of pressure on Congress to not renew more than a dozen provisions which expire at the end of this year. And they also want to scale back some others. Now, that's a move Attorney General Gonzales says would be very dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups still pose a great threat to the security of the American people and now is not the time to relinquish some of our most effective tools in this fight. As Congress considers whether to renew these provisions, I am open to suggestions for clarifying and strengthening the act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now there are two provisions that have drawn the most criticism. The first allows searches to be conducted in secret. The other allows federal agents to search library and other business records with court approval.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: The American Library Association, not historically a politically active group, has become very active, because they believe the Patriot Act went too far. They believe, for example, if an FBI field office believed that an unidentified terrorist had checked out a book entitled, "How to Build a Dirty Bomb," from the Chicago Public Library, that Section 215 gives the government the authority to search the library records of hundreds of ordinary citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Attorney General Gonzales disclosed today that requests for such records had been approved 35 times by courts since this law was passed. But he says that none of those involved libraries or book stores.

Now this will not be the end of the debate. More hearings are scheduled, and sources on both sides promise a very big fight -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Kelli, I know the ACLU has been a very big critic of the Patriot Act. Did they have anything to say about today's testimony?

ARENA: Well, basically, they said that -- they were specifically asked about Attorney General Gonzales saying that he was open to some changes, and they say, look, we know what he's open to changing, they're very superficial changes, we want the outright abolishment of some of these provisions, it's not enough, and we promise we're going to fight this until we get our way. Of course, this is a big priority for the Justice Department, so we expect the other side to be equally forceful.

NGUYEN: CNN's Kelli Arena, thank you for that update.

ARENA: You're welcome.

NGUYEN: CNN is committed to providing the most reliable coverage of news that affects your security, so you want to stay tuned to CNN for the latest information, both day and night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: It's almost the top of the hour. We want to get straight to the Pentagon with some late-breaking word of some shooting that's causing a little bit of controversy.

Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent, I understand you're just getting the word -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: There's just been an announcement from the Combined Press Information Center in Baghdad that a journalist was apparently shot during an engagement in northern Iraq today. The U.S. military says it was an accidental shooting when the journalist was mistaken for a terrorist.

According to an account from the multinational forces in Iraq, U.S. forces were at a site where there had been a suicide bombing earlier in the day. They saw a man waving a AK-47 rifle, inciting a crowd to violence. He was shot, along with -- he was shot and killed along with a man standing near him, who also appeared to have a weapon. But it turned out that that man standing near him was a cameraman in the employ of CBS News, and he was -- suffered some minor injuries. He was taken to a hospital. He's expected to recover.

The U.S. military said it regretted the fact that he had been injured during what it called a "complex and volatile situation," and it says the incident is under investigation. Again, the photographer -- who apparently worked for CBS News in northern Iraq -- is expected to recover after suffering minor gunshot wounds -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Once again, the realities of being embedded.

Was this photographer embedded with a certain unit, Jamie, do we know? Was he with a reporter, or with a bigger crew, or was he just on his own? MCINTYRE: Well, based on the facts we know at this point, it appears that he was simply covering the situation, and not embedded with U.S. troops. But the United States military of course tries to differentiate between friendly and hostile forces on the battlefield. But as you point out, it's often a complex situation. In this case it appears that his video camera was mistaken for a weapon, and that's how he got shot. Fortunately, it does appear he will recover from his wounds.

PHILLIPS: All right, Jamie McIntyre, live from the Pentagon, thanks so much.

We're going to be back with the second hour of LIVE FROM in just a moment.

NGUYEN: Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 5, 2005 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Live pictures from the Vatican as the faithful pay respects to the pope. This hour, what traditions will be followed this week and what church traditions might change as the church picks a new leader.
BETTY NGUYEN, CO-HOST: When a would-be assassin struck, she was known as the baby who saved the pope's life. We catch up with the young woman the world called Baby Sara.

PHILLIPS: Unsettling news for ABC anchorman Peter Jennings. He's facing a battle with lung cancer.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips.

NGUYEN: And I'm Betty Nguyen in for Miles O'Brien. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

PHILLIPS: So how do you move two million people, maybe three million, through one church, even a huge church, in four days? Quickly, respectfully, unobtrusively, but quickly.

Pilgrims who continue to line up for miles and wait for hours to say personal farewells to Pope John Paul II and maybe snap a photo are being nudged along at a pretty brisk pace. The Vatican also plans to keep St. Peter's Basilica open 22 hours a day, up from 21 that was announced yesterday, to accommodate the crowds before the pontiff's funeral Friday morning.

The cardinals met again today to work out arrangements, but they didn't set a date for the crucial meeting where they'll elect John Paul's successor. Now by Vatican law, there's a five-day window for the opening of the conclave, in this case, from April 17 to the 22nd.

We do know that there will be a couple breaks from tradition, one instituted by John Paul himself. A papal spokesman says that the cardinals will not be locked in the Sistine Chapel while they deliberate and vote, but they will stay in the Vatican, and they will be barred from any contact with the outside world.

So when they'll be finished, well, everybody knows to look for white smoke. But the last time, in 1978 it looked a little gray and many people were confused. So in 2005, bells will ring as well. This way, says the Vatican's master of ceremonies for the liturgy, even journalists will know.

Well, there's fear in Rome that the city's population could essentially double this week, not even counting a couple hundred VIP's and several thousand journalists. One of those is our own Diana Muriel.

Hi, Diana.

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra. Yes, joining me here, just by the queue, as they head towards the basilica -- the point that I'm at, these people have been waiting, some of them, for about eight hours.

In the last half an hour or so, the temperature has dropped, which has provided some relief to these tens of thousands of people. But from here, they've still got another two, maybe even three hours, before they get inside the basilica to see the body of Pope John Paul II. And the queue has been like this for much of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MURIEL (voice-over): The crowd in St. Peter's Square steadily growing, stretching back for more than a mile. They come from all over the country, all over the world, Polish Canadian Annette Boguslawski.

ANNETTE BOGUSLAWSKI, POLISH-CANADIAN PILGRIM: We've been here for, I would say, a little bit over two hours. And it feels like it's been a few minutes.

MURIEL: This Argentinean nun, waiting in line since 7 a.m.

SISTER CONSOLATA, ARGENTINE PILGRIM: Even though everyone has to wait for hours, nobody minds.

MURIEL: The wait may be long, but when the line moves, you've got to keep up.

By 10 a.m., it's starting to get hot. The authorities hand out bottles of water to those in the crowd, keeping the mood calm, good humored.

(on camera) And still they come in their tens of thousands. The long wait, almost a penance for some of these pilgrims, here to say good-bye to their pope.

(voice-over) More than two million, maybe as many as four million, are expected over the next few days, proving a headache for the authorities. Streets are barricaded, extra police bused in to manage the crowds.

Free shuttle buses, too, taking the pilgrims from the city's train stations to the center of town. Free accommodation also at newly-erected tent cities.

As Rome's hotels fill up and put up their prices, a makeshift dormitory has also been established in an exhibition hall.

DIDIER HELSEN, BELGIAN PILGRIM: We don't have enough money to stay in expensive hotels. As we heard there was cheaper accommodation, free accommodation.

MURIEL: It's basic, but according to this Italian girl, that's all part of the experience.

GAIA ALDI, ITALIAN PILGRIM: Because if we choose an hotel or something there it was just a trip in Rome. And this way, we -- we stay here to pray, it's the -- the best thing that we can do now.

MURIEL: So a spiritual experience then for many on this final pilgrimage for their pope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURIEL: And given the length of the wait in this line, it's also something of an endurance test -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Diana Muriel, live there in Rome. We'll check in with you throughout the day. Thank you.

NGUYEN: We're still learning fascinating details surrounding the papal transition in general and John Paul II's rites and rituals in particular. CNN Vatican analyst John Allen joins us again to explain and expound. He is the Rome correspondent for the "National Catholic Reporter."

John, I want to ask you, today we learned that the pope's body was not embalmed. Is that unusual?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I think it is. I mean, we know in the past, with other recent popes, Pius XII, for example, John XXIII, Paul VI, those bodies were embalmed before they laid in state, certainly before they were buried.

What's not clear is that the Vatican spokesperson today during the press conference indicated the body had not yet been embalmed. It's not clear if that's going to be done at some future point, perhaps in that period of time between the public viewing and the beginning of the funeral and ultimately the burial.

So you know, but this is the way this works. I mean, you know, while the Vatican has a fairly detailed blueprint for these sorts of things, there are always some minor variations each time, which is -- sort of adds to -- adds to the interest.

NGUYEN: We also have learned that the pope has requested that he be buried in the ground. Is that something that we haven't seen a lot with popes in the past?

ALLEN: Yes, that's right. Almost all of the popes who were buried in that grotto beneath the main floor of St. Peter's Basilica are in what's called a sarcophagus -- that's a large, metal container -- and they're above ground. There's only a handful, a very small number that have been buried in the ground.

And of course, we don't know, we haven't been told what the logic, what John Paul's logic was for that particular choice. We do know, based on reports this afternoon, that apparently some Poles are now trying to organize an expedition to Rome to bring some Polish soil to include in the space that John Paul is going to be buried in.

NGUYEN: Very interesting. And I also find it fascinating that Pope John Paul II will be buried in layers of coffins. How does that work?

ALLEN: Well, essentially, what happens is that the pope is initially placed in a simple wooden casket. And that's the casket you will see at the funeral mass on Friday, that will be there in the middle of St. Peter's Square.

But before the actual burial, that wooden casket is then placed in a casket of metal, which is then placed in a thicker wooden casket. And therefore, those three caskets, then, are what is eventually placed in his spot.

It's probably worth noting that that spot in the grotto that John Paul II will be occupying was the spot that was vacated by one of his predecessors, Pope John XXIII, who was beatified by John Paul II. And when a pope is beatified, his remains are then brought up to the main level of St. Peter's Basilica and placed beneath one of the altars.

NGUYEN: There's a lot of tradition here. Also the fact that before that cypress casket is closed or sealed, there are articles that will be placed inside. Tell us what those are.

ALLEN: Well, one thing will be a veil, which is placed over the face of the pope. There will also be a parchment, listing the -- essentially, the main points of his life, the main dates of his life.

There will also be a bag of coins. The Vatican strikes coins with the pope's likeness for each year of his reign. By the way, interestingly, there's also a Vatican euro. Each year, the Vatican puts out a set of euro coins, although they're collectors items rather than the kind of thing you use to buy a cappuccino.

And finally, then, will be the remains of that fisherman's ring, which is one of the chief symbols of the papal office. You'll remember, of course, the ring is actually smashed when the pope is dead, but the bits are gathered together and placed in a container. And those also go into the casket with the deceased pope.

NGUYEN: Very fascinating details. John Allen, the CNN Vatican analyst, we thank you for your insights.

ALLEN: You're very welcome.

NGUYEN: Sure. He is the last of the longtime big three anchors still on the job. But now he faces his toughest assignment, a battle with cancer.

And later, the Patriot Act, a controversial law enacted in response to September 11. Should it be renewed? It's the question of the day on Capitol Hill. And we've got the details.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: It's a health crisis for one of the biggest names in broadcast news today. ABC announced longtime evening anchorman Peter Jennings has cancer. For more now, let's go live to CNN's Adaora Udoji in New York.

Adaora, what do you know?

ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, apparently, Peter Jennings just found out about his cancer diagnosis yesterday, at least according to a spokesman.

And then we're also told that he passed that information on to his staff in an e-mail today, writing, quote, "I've been diagnosed with lung cancer. Yes, it was quite a surprise," Peter Jennings writes. "As you all know, this is a challenge. I begin chemotherapy next week. I will continue to do the broadcast. There will be good days and bad, which means that some days I may be cranky and some days really cranky."

An ABC spokesman also told us, Betty, that Jennings will do the broadcast tonight. We're told he will address his diagnosis, that his treatment is to begin on Monday. It comes, they said, after he had been feeling ill the past couple of months.

As you may recall, Betty, he did not go and cover the tsunami tragedy and did not go to cover the passing of the pope this week. He is here in New York, and we're sure to hear more from him tonight about his diagnosis of lung cancer -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Adaora, you mentioned that Peter Jennings just found out yesterday that he has lung cancer. But do we know how far along the cancer is, what stage of cancer it is?

UDOJI: Betty, they have not released any other details than those we just expressed, that were written in an e-mail. As we were told not long ago from a spokesman at ABC that Peter Jennings would be talking about his diagnosis on the show tonight, that's ABC News, "World News Tonight," that he will be talking about and perhaps be sharing a few more details, on exactly what the diagnosis, what stage of the cancer he is in and what his expectation is of what's going to happen next week when he starts chemotherapy -- Betty.

NGUYEN: All right. Adaora Udoji in New York for us, thank you, Adaora -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Lung cancer is the most common form of cancer in the U.S. today, according to the government, that is. We'll talk more about the disease and how to treat it with our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Thanks for coming in today.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you. PHILLIPS: All right. The statement just came out a few minutes ago, saying that Peter Jennings will still do "World News Tonight," however chemo starts on Monday. Now, you know, I know, chemo, I mean it wipes you out.

GUPTA: It does. And he's going to -- as he said in the statement, he's going to have some good days and some bad days. There are days where he's going to be cranky, less cranky on other days.

It does a lot of things. You know, chemotherapy is a very toxic drug. A lot of people know that. It kills tumor cells but it also affects a lot of other cells in the body, as well. Most people recognize that, what happens is tumor cells divides very quickly. And that's how chemo works, by attacking those cells.

Other cells that divide very quickly are the cells that are in your hair, cells that are in your stomach and your G.I. tract, which is why, Kyra, people lose their hair, people get nauseated. They have vomiting, you know, diarrhea associated with chemotherapy, as well. They can get ulcers in their mouth, all sorts of different things. It can make you feel pretty miserable.

PHILLIPS: Now part -- more than -- obviously, there were a number of things that happened before the diagnosis came to light. He wasn't feeling well for quite awhile. That's why he didn't take a lot of the trips to cover the tsunami and other stories. So probably had a lot of chest x-rays. I mean, it's a process to finally...

GUPTA: There is a process.

PHILLIPS: OK.

GUPTA: Yes. And it's unclear -- it's well known I think, that he was a smoker for some time. Apparently, he did quit some time ago. But he was a smoker. So typically, what happens, he may have had some shortness of breath. He may have had a persistent cough, any of those sorts of symptoms.

Or he may have just gotten a routine chest X-ray to check up on him and seen a spot on that X-ray. Subsequently, got a CT scan, which is a more sophisticated scan. And then, if the spot was still there, to basically take a little needle and remove some of that -- those cells to try and figure out, was this cancer.

Questions that we don't yet know the answer to and we may find out tonight, how advanced is this? Did it spread to his lymph nodes? That's a critical important piece of information? Did it spread to other parts of his body? How advanced was it at the time that it was diagnosed?

PHILLIPS: And just real quickly, I mean, a lot of people are probably wondering, can he beat this? What are the chances that he can beat this?

GUPTA: Well, sure, he can beat this. I think most doctors would say that. But the data is not very favorable, I would say that as well, for all people with lung cancer.

Most people have a specific type of lung cancer called non-small cell. The name is not that important, but about 75 to 80 percent of people have that type of cancer. Six out of 10 people, even with therapy, die within the first year. Seven out of 10 to eight out of 10 die within a couple years.

Of course there are a few, that means as well, Kyra, that survive, go on to survive. Five-year survival, about 50 percent in some -- some people.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll follow the treatment and his condition. Thanks, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM, will the next pope change the church's stance on divorce, homosexuality, or marriage of clergy? A priest speaks out on reforming tradition.

Later on LIVE FROM, a bomb explodes in a parking garage. Only a drill, but is America ready for the real thing? In depth on training for terror.

Also, later on LIVE FROM, wedding day delay. But now, one more thing goes wrong for Prince Charles and Camilla.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Want to bring you up to date on a story we've been following. This just in. Beachgoers can get back into the water in some south Florida areas, off the beaches there, because sharks had recently, as you can see in this video, been swarming just off shore, off of several beaches, including Del Ray, Deerfield Peace, Boca Raton and Palm Beach.

To get an update on the situation there, we want to go on the phone now to Bob Hueter. He is the director at the Center for Shark Research in Sarasota, Florida.

First thing I want to ask you is what type of shark are we looking at and why are they in that area?

BOB HUETER, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR SHARK RESEARCH: Well, the sharks that I have seen in the video are primarily two species: the black tip shark and the spinner shark. They look very similar. These are sharks -- they don't get to be huge. These are sharks that get to be about seven to maybe nine feet long at the most.

And they're in the area because they're feeding. This is their spring migration time, when they're moving north, to come into coastal waters. And they're concentrated up close to shore where all the food is.

NGUYEN: We are looking at video of this. And there seems to be hundreds of these sharks. Do they travel in such large packs?

HUETER: Normally, it's hard to see them in these big groups. They -- it's not -- it's not that they travel like this all year round, but during the spring and fall times, when they're moving through an area like this area, off Florida, and the water is clear, then they can be seen in these large groups. And it's pretty spectacular, but it's nothing that signals anything unusual happening in the environment.

NGUYEN: You are right about that, it is a spectacular to see this video. It's also a bit frightening when you consider this is so close to the beaches there, several beaches there in Florida. You say they are feeding. Are they any threat to humans in the water?

HUETER: Well, only in the sense that if we had people in the water with the sharks, altogether, while the sharks are feeding, than there is -- there's certainly a possibility of someone getting bitten.

These are not -- these are not really man-eating sharks in the sense that these are very large predators. But this is a species that in the summertime in Florida will sometimes bite the hands of surfers or swimmers. And so it's probably prudent that we don't mix people with sharks at this time when they're all -- when they're over there.

NGUYEN: All right. Let's be very clear about this. While we are watching the video of these hundreds of sharks right off the shores there in Florida, the news today is that these beaches have been reopened. Have the sharks gone away? Are they out of the area?

HUETER: Well, I don't know. Because I'm speaking to you from the Gulf of Mexico side of Florida. But I can tell you that sharks are always in the ocean. I mean, having the sharks out there isn't anything particularly new.

But if they are very close to the beach and if they are in great numbers, than it's probably prudent to try to avoid having swimmers in there, until the sharks pass. And that will happen fairly soon.

NGUYEN: How long do they usually stay in the area?

HUETER: They're going to be off the coast of Florida all summer long. But as far as these large, visible groups, this will probably be over within a matter of a couple weeks and then, you know, they'll move on, they'll disperse, and it just won't be as spectacular as it is now.

NGUYEN: Yes, it is quite a spectacular sight to see. But again, these sharks are not known as man eaters, but they have been blamed for biting people. So be very careful in the waters off the coast of Florida, although the latest news, according to Associated Press, is that beachgoers can get back into the water.

We appreciate your time with us today, Bob Hueter, director of the Center for the Shark -- for Shark Research there in Sarasota, Florida. Thank you.

HUETER: You're welcome.

NGUYEN: We will have more LIVE FROM coming up right after this break. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: As Catholics around the world mourn the loss of John Paul II, many are left with ambivalent feelings about the church he leaves behind.

CNN national correspondent Kelly Wallace talked with one man who experienced seismic shifts in his faith between the pope's 1979 and 1995 visits to New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Daniel Durante is 40 now. But, oh, how he remembers being a young student at a Catholic seminary school, racing down to the field at Shea Stadium to see Pope John Paul II.

DANIEL DURANTE, CATHOLIC: We were all screaming, "Long live the pope, long live the pope." And it was -- it was just exhilarating.

WALLACE: And the pope, it appears, heard him and his friends.

DURANTE: We were screaming so loud that he kind of looked and smiled and did one of these numbers. And we were floored, you know -- you know, when he gave us that blessing.

WALLACE: But 16 years later, when the pope returned to New York City, Durante, who left the seminary school after a year, did not race to see him. The son of religious parents was profiled in "The New York Times" back then, a disaffected Catholic who still practiced his faith, but questioned the pope's conservative beliefs regarding celibacy for priests, the ordination of women, premarital sex.

He recalls taking some heat for his words.

DURANTE: Turning around and saying I don't necessarily agree with, you know, the Catholic Church's position on this, you know, there are a lot of people that don't agree with not agreeing with the pope. I don't agree with 100 percent of anything anybody has to say. I think that, you know, it's a dangerous thing when you let yourself be led blindly. So you have to kind of look at things and think.

WALLACE: Since then, his frustrations with the church have grown. He talks about a priest telling him how he would not baptize his now 4-year-old son because Durante had been to other churches, not that one -- and how a deeply religious friend was excommunicated after a divorce.

DURANTE: And that just reeks of a church that doesn't see change. WALLACE: And while Durante hopes for what he calls a more open- minded pope and church in the future, he says he still feels the loss of John Paul. He cried when he learned the pope had died. As he put it, it's like losing the uncle you didn't always get along with.

DURANTE: I look at him now. Socially, he's magnificent, he's a giant. He globally has probably done more for social justice than any other individual you could point to. He was right on the money there.

Catholic Church and its structure, I'm not so sure that I agree.

WALLACE: Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Like losing the uncle you didn't always get along with. If recent polls are any indication, Daniel Durante expresses feelings that many U.S. Catholics would echo about the pope.

But it's one thing to be a layperson questioning church doctrine and another thing entirely if you happen to be a priest who disagrees with Vatican policies.

Father Charles Curran lost his teaching job at Catholic University in Washington for publicly flouting some key church teachings. He's recently written a book on those teachings called "The Moral Theology of Pope John Paul II." He joins us today from Dallas to talk about the disconnect that some American Catholics may feel about the church.

Good to see you, Father.

FATHER CHARLES CURRAN, AUTHOR, "THE MORAL THEOLOGY OF POPE JOHN PAUL II": Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, tell us what happened at Catholic University as you were teaching moral theology. What happened?

CURRAN: Well, in 1979, I was informed that the Vatican was investigating my writings. And after a seven-year back and forth discussion, they concluded that I was neither suitable, nor eligible, to be a Catholic theologian...

PHILLIPS: And...

CURRAN: ... primarily because of my positions on sexuality, contraception, sterilization, divorce, homosexuality.

PHILLIPS: Because you believed in change? You believed in getting in touch with the year 2000-plus?

CURRAN: Right, except, let's be a little careful there. Because some things in the year 2000-plus are good, and some things are not good. And the church always has to go and try to discern what is the good and what isn't. PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about that. And let's talk about how you have basically decided what you feel is good and what needs to change. If we were to look back in history and talk about democracy, slavery, you pointed out even interest on loans, there are some big changes that have happened in the Catholic Church. Recap those for us.

CURRAN: Oh, there's no doubt there has been, especially in the area of moral teaching, there has been significant teaching change.

In the middle of the 19th century, the popes condemned democracy. They claimed that freedom of conscience was a sewer into which all garbage flows. That was in a papal encyclical, those words.

It took the Catholic Church 1900 years to condemn slavery. It was only in the end of the 19th Century that the institution of slavery was condemned.

For 16 centuries, we accepted the fact that you could not take interest on a loan. And this had a strong scriptural basis. It was heavily in the Hebrew Bible. It was in the -- at least the Christian understanding of the New Testament that it said, "Lend, expecting nothing in return."

PHILLIPS: Now, here we are, years and years later. Changes have been made. And now there are so many issues at hand that American Catholics specifically are saying, "Look, I love my church. I love being a Catholic, but I just don't understand, for example, why women can't be priests."

This is something you support. Why?

CURRAN: Well, basically, the argument against the ordination of women, which I disagree with, is that Jesus didn't ordain any women. But let's face it, if you follow that out, Jesus didn't ordain -- well, he didn't really ordain anybody, but he certainly didn't ordain any non-Semites. So what are you going to do about that?

As I say, you would have a stronger thing saying that you could not take interest on a loan. But it seems to me that -- well, first of all, with regard to the ordination of women, that the New Testament itself gives a significant role to women. I mean, Mary Magdalene was the first apostle. Mary Magdalene was the one who told the other apostles, that gave the good news that Jesus rose from the dead.

But as time went on, because of the sociological culture of the time, women did not have positions of ruling or authority in any society, and that's why they didn't have them in the church.

PHILLIPS: So Father...

CURRAN: So in my judgment this is just a sociological matter that can and should change when our understanding of the role of women changes.

PHILLIPS: And when you talk about the sociological changes, you have strong feelings about contraception, homosexuality, women as priests, priests marrying, divorce. Let me ask you this, because time is running short. If change doesn't take place, if things don't become more progressive in these areas, what could happen to the Catholic Church? What could happen to Catholic believers?

CURRAN: Well, first of all it seems to me when you deal with these questions, which, in my judgment and the judgment of most people are what are called non-infallible teachings, that one can disagree with them and still be a loyal Roman Catholic.

I disagree with them. I'm still a loyal Roman Catholic. I hope to see change come about from the official church. But many times, change comes from below.

I mean, let's face it, in terms of the basic reality, the Catholic Church has already changed its teaching on artificial contraception. Eighty-five to 90 percent of Catholics have disagreed with a papal teaching in theory and practice.

PHILLIPS: Father, I promise this is not spiritual intervention that's doing this, but we're about to lose you, via satellite. I'm going to encourage everybody to check out your book "The Moral Theology of Pope John Paul II."

Father Charles Curran, great to have time with you today, sir. Thank you so much.

CURRAN: Nice to be with you.

NGUYEN: A self-professed, spiritual brother of the late pope has reportedly been told he can't attend the pope's funeral. Mehmet Ali Agca shot and very nearly killed the pontiff in 1981. Two years later, John Paul visited Agca in prison to personally deliver his forgiveness. And many years after that, Agca was released. He is now imprisoned in Turkey for unrelated crimes, and Reuters news service is reporting his request to make a brief trip to Rome has been rejected.

When the pope was attacked on that unforgettable day in his own front yard, as it were, St. Peter's Square, he just embraced a toddler, and that simple act of love may have saved his life. Today, the toddler is expecting a child of her own any day now, and CNN's Alessio Vinci reports the death of John Paul II makes this an especially emotional time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago.

It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in St. Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.

SARA BARTOLI (through translator): Spontaneously, I'd say that I did save his life but actually perhaps he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit like a father would.

VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life.

Today, Sara Bartoli is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.

BARTOLI (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me they were scared about what happened to me.

VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.

BARTOLI (through translator): I realized that after 24 years something opened up and I cried and only a few days later he died and all my emotions overflowed.

VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now, Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.

Sara is now married and nine months' pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.

BARTOLI (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and the future.

VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: In other news, are you overconfident about retirement? Well, ahead on LIVE FROM, what most Americans don't know about saving enough green for those golden years.

Plus, debating the Patriot Act. Should a controversial set of laws be renewed? We'll go live to Washington for more.

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NGUYEN: Stories now in the news. Hundreds of thousands of mourners are waiting as long as eight hours to see the body of Pope John Paul II as it lies in state in St. Peter's Basilica. It's still undecided when the conclave will begin to select a new pope. We'll go live to Rome in just about 30 minutes. Meantime, public mourning for the pope continues all around the world. In Washington today, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was among those visiting the Vatican Embassy to add her signature to the book of condolences. She will join the U.S. delegation led by the president and Mrs. Bush due to attend Friday's funeral mass at St. Peter's Basilica.

And some unexpected pictures from Cuba. Take a look at this, where President Castro shed his usual olive fatigues and put on a black suit to visit the Vatican Embassy in Havana. In his condolences, the longtime communist leader wrote, "Your departure pains us, dear friend." In 1998, John Paul II became the first pope ever to visit Cuba, which was officially atheist until 1992.

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PHILLIPS: News across America now. The son of Michael Jackson's former maid is facing more cross examination in the pop star's child molestation trial today. The man, now 24 years old, testified yesterday that Jackson fondled him three times as a boy and gave him hush money. Jackson is on trial, charged with molesting another boy. He denies all the charges.

NGUYEN: Voters in Kansas are taking up same-sex marriage today. They are deciding whether to approve a statewide constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriages. Thirteen other states have passed a constitutional ban outlawing same-sex couples from marrying.

And look at this. Drenching rains are causing big problems up and down the Delaware River. The river has spilled over its banks, forcing thousands of people in Trenton, New Jersey, alone, to evacuate. Damage estimates in New Jersey are nearing $30 million and the flooding is blamed for one death in New York.

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PHILLIPS: In our Security Watch, a federal report on the collapse and rescue of people from the World Trade Center in 2001 is due out today. Sources say the study highlights the limited ability that rescuers had reaching higher floors and that some people may have stayed in the buildings too long to escape. The findings are part of three reports issued by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

Well, the State Department is placing a $5 million bounty on the head of the suspect in the first World Trade Center bombing. That man is Abdul Rahman Yasin. The Iraqi-American is wanted for allegedly helping build the bomb used in the 1993 attack which killed six people. The U.S. believes that Yasin is hiding out near Samarra, just north of Iraq's capital city.

NGUYEN: Testimony wrapped up just a short time ago on Capitol Hill over a highly controversial law adopted after the September 11th attacks. That is the U.S. Patriot Act. Several provisions are set to expire at the end of the year and two of the government's officials are urging their renewal.

CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena is following the developments live in Washington and she joins us with the latest. Hi there, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Betty. Well, both men are calling it a vital weapon in the war on terror. Now as you said, the act was passed shortly after the September 11th attacks and it did give law enforcement broad new powers in terrorism investigations. Most notably, it broke down the wall that existed between criminal and terrorism investigations and allowed for the sharing of information.

Now while that part of the act has a lot of support, there are some parts of this law that have both liberals and conservatives very concerned. And there's a lot of pressure on Congress to not renew more than a dozen provisions which expire at the end of this year. And they also want to scale back some others. Now, that's a move Attorney General Gonzales says would be very dangerous.

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ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups still pose a great threat to the security of the American people and now is not the time to relinquish some of our most effective tools in this fight. As Congress considers whether to renew these provisions, I am open to suggestions for clarifying and strengthening the act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now there are two provisions that have drawn the most criticism. The first allows searches to be conducted in secret. The other allows federal agents to search library and other business records with court approval.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: The American Library Association, not historically a politically active group, has become very active, because they believe the Patriot Act went too far. They believe, for example, if an FBI field office believed that an unidentified terrorist had checked out a book entitled, "How to Build a Dirty Bomb," from the Chicago Public Library, that Section 215 gives the government the authority to search the library records of hundreds of ordinary citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Attorney General Gonzales disclosed today that requests for such records had been approved 35 times by courts since this law was passed. But he says that none of those involved libraries or book stores.

Now this will not be the end of the debate. More hearings are scheduled, and sources on both sides promise a very big fight -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Kelli, I know the ACLU has been a very big critic of the Patriot Act. Did they have anything to say about today's testimony?

ARENA: Well, basically, they said that -- they were specifically asked about Attorney General Gonzales saying that he was open to some changes, and they say, look, we know what he's open to changing, they're very superficial changes, we want the outright abolishment of some of these provisions, it's not enough, and we promise we're going to fight this until we get our way. Of course, this is a big priority for the Justice Department, so we expect the other side to be equally forceful.

NGUYEN: CNN's Kelli Arena, thank you for that update.

ARENA: You're welcome.

NGUYEN: CNN is committed to providing the most reliable coverage of news that affects your security, so you want to stay tuned to CNN for the latest information, both day and night.

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PHILLIPS: It's almost the top of the hour. We want to get straight to the Pentagon with some late-breaking word of some shooting that's causing a little bit of controversy.

Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent, I understand you're just getting the word -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: There's just been an announcement from the Combined Press Information Center in Baghdad that a journalist was apparently shot during an engagement in northern Iraq today. The U.S. military says it was an accidental shooting when the journalist was mistaken for a terrorist.

According to an account from the multinational forces in Iraq, U.S. forces were at a site where there had been a suicide bombing earlier in the day. They saw a man waving a AK-47 rifle, inciting a crowd to violence. He was shot, along with -- he was shot and killed along with a man standing near him, who also appeared to have a weapon. But it turned out that that man standing near him was a cameraman in the employ of CBS News, and he was -- suffered some minor injuries. He was taken to a hospital. He's expected to recover.

The U.S. military said it regretted the fact that he had been injured during what it called a "complex and volatile situation," and it says the incident is under investigation. Again, the photographer -- who apparently worked for CBS News in northern Iraq -- is expected to recover after suffering minor gunshot wounds -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Once again, the realities of being embedded.

Was this photographer embedded with a certain unit, Jamie, do we know? Was he with a reporter, or with a bigger crew, or was he just on his own? MCINTYRE: Well, based on the facts we know at this point, it appears that he was simply covering the situation, and not embedded with U.S. troops. But the United States military of course tries to differentiate between friendly and hostile forces on the battlefield. But as you point out, it's often a complex situation. In this case it appears that his video camera was mistaken for a weapon, and that's how he got shot. Fortunately, it does appear he will recover from his wounds.

PHILLIPS: All right, Jamie McIntyre, live from the Pentagon, thanks so much.

We're going to be back with the second hour of LIVE FROM in just a moment.

NGUYEN: Stay with us.

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