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Plans Underway for Pope's Funeral; Cardinal Egan of New York Heads to Rome
Aired April 05, 2005 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news, Iraq's Transitional National Assembly is poised to break new ground tomorrow. The governing body is expected to announce the names of Iraq's new political heavyweight. Longtime Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani is expected to be named Iraq's new president and Shiite leader Ibrahim al Jaafari is expected to be their pick for the new prime minister.
President Bush is expected to meet with his cabinet at this hour to wrap up any pressing business before he heads to Rome. The president and First Lady Laura Bush will be among the dignitaries attending the pope's funeral, which will take place on Friday. We will have more on that meeting, coming up just a little bit later, right here on LIVE FROM.
The longtime anchor of ABC's "World News Tonight," Peter Jennings, has lung cancer. He's expected to begin outpatient treatment next week. Jennings alerted his staff that he plans to keep working while he undergoes chemotherapy. The Canadian-born broadcaster has been ABC's main newsman since 1983.
And dangerous duty for a journalist in Iraq today. A reporter with a video camera was wounded by U.S. forces in Mosul when they apparently mistook the camera for a weapon. He was standing near an armed insurgent who was killed. That reporter was treated for minor wounds and the incident is under investigation.
PHILLIPS: A mass of mourners still making their way to St. Peter's Basilica to pay their respects to Pope John Paul II today. His death set off an elaborate series of rituals steeped in tradition for his burial, from the Swiss Guard to the manner in which the pope is attired, our Anderson Cooper explains the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): What a journey it was, borne on the shoulders of the papal gentlemen, men from distinguished families whose job it is to care for the pontiff in life and in death, and flanked by the elite Swiss Guard, protectors of the papacy for centuries.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, the Swiss Guards are a police force, if you like, for the pope. The origins date back to the Renaissance period, when the pope was still a secular monarch in central Italy. And they are aptly named, because the requirement to be a member of the Swiss Guard you must be a Swiss citizen. You must have done military service. You must be a baptized Catholic. DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The interesting thing about the Swiss Guards is yes, they have to protect the pope while he's alive and now, of course, they are protecting him still, even in his death.
COOPER: Tears mixed with cheers. As the procession made its way into St. Peter's Square, dozens upon dozens representing the ranks of religious life, monks, priests, bishops, cardinals, accompanying the pope while tens of thousands watched and mourned.
GALLAGHER: He's wearing his vestments as a bishop. A bishop is one of the most important positions in the church. Not even a cardinal, a bishop is the most important. Cardinals are also bishops. Now, the pope, of course, was also a cardinal. He was a bishop, a cardinal, and then pope.
COOPER: While parts of the pomp and circumstance of saying good- bye to the pope have been refined, the ritual grew from ancient roots and centuries of tradition. A church document sets the precise ceremony for laying the pontiff to rest, right down to the robes in which he's buried, crimson and white, symbolizing fire and purity, his miter a lasting symbol of his authority.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The pope, in addition to being pope, is also -- was also, at an earlier stage in his career, a cardinal. And that crimson is also a reminder of his identity as a cardinal. Cardinals wear crimson, by the way, because they take oaths of loyalty to the church, up to the shedding of their own blood.
The white miter that was placed upon the pope's head is the traditional bishop's headgear, so to speak. It has one horn in front, one horn in back, symbolizing the Old and New Testaments.
COOPER: Inside St. Peter's, a simple service, the liturgy of the word, a reading from the Gospel, presided over by the camerlengo, the cardinal in charge during the interregnum, the time between popes.
Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo was appointed to that position years ago by his friend, John Paul II.
ALLEN: He knew, obviously, he -- Martinez Somalo knew that this day must come at some stage, and so has been preparing himself, in some sense, to exercise these responsibilities for an awful long time.
GALLAGHER: It was a very moving ceremony, because we saw for the first time, the inside of the Apostolic Palace televised. We've seen pictures, but on television, we were able to see some of those beautiful rooms, painted by Raphael and then carrying them down -- carrying the pope down the stairs.
COOPER: We now know the pope will be buried on Friday morning, following an elaborate funeral mass, also dictated by tradition. And, like half his predecessors, he'll be buried in the grotto under St. Peter's, in a crypt that once belonged to Pope John XXIII, whose remains have been moved to the main floor of the basilica. Until then, Pope John Paul II belongs once more to his flock, the faithful he served, who now file past with one final prayer, a last good-bye.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: New details of the pope's funeral are being released. I want to talk about that with our Vatican analyst, John Allen, who is in Rome. He is the Rome correspondent for "The National Catholic Reporter" and author of "The Conclave." John, we learned today that the pope did, indeed, leave a will. What instructions did he leave for his burial?
ALLEN: Well, actually, we don't yet know anything about the will. What the Vatican spokesperson Joaquin Navarro-Valls in a press conference today said is the will has not yet been read. But it would also appear that in addition to the will, the pope also left at least one instruction for his burial, which is that he wants to be buried in the earth. And this is something of a break from papal tradition.
Normally, popes in the grotto in St. Peter's are placed in a sarcophagus, which is a sort of a marble box if you like, very ornate, that is -- that rests above ground. But in this case, the pope wants to be buried in the earth and so he will be and then a stone tablet will be placed on top of the burial site. Worth noting, of course, that that burial site will be that once occupied by Pope John XXIII, whom Pope John II beatified.
NGUYEN: I think you point out something very interesting, because when we think of wills, we think of burial instructions. We also think of possessions, who will get what. What is in a pope's will?
ALLEN: Yes, I mean, the pope does not have assets, so to speak, that he is disposing of. So a papal will is much more -- sort of a final spiritual message. And therefore, it's a kind of exhortation and a kind of summary of the words he wants to speak to Catholics and to the rest of the world. Often, popes will leave some specific instructions for the disposal of their papers and whatever personal effects are left. But typically, that's not actually in the formal testament.
And we're using will in kind of an informal sense. Actually, these documents normally are called testaments. And as you say, they're not the kind of wills that you and I are accustomed to think of.
NGUYEN: I want to look ahead now, because as we think of those 117 cardinals who will be choosing a new pope -- any idea who the front-runners may be right now?
ALLEN: Well, look, this is a very hazardous business. I like to say that the trash heaps of history are littered with the carcasses of people who have tried to predict the next pope. I mean, the raw reality is we don't know. Unlike secular politics, there are no polls or campaign war chests to look at. All we have are historical patterns and guesswork.
But, having said all that, I'll forge ahead and say that, sort of by general consensus, the people who pay attention to these things and listening to what cardinals are talking about, it would seem that men such as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was the pope's top doctrinal official, and I think by universal consensus, a man of great intellect, great spiritual depth. Very, very, well respected among his fellow cardinals, certainly would have to be on that list.
Probably someone like -- Latin Americans, such as Claudio Hummes, the cardinal of Sao Paulo, Brazil. Or Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the cardinal of Buenos Aires, in Argentina. Certainly the cardinal in Venice, Angelo Scola and perhaps a choice that would be particularly exciting, I think, for the world's imagination, would be an African pope. Cardinal Francis Arinze, who has been in Rome since 1984, first as head of the Vatican's office on interreligious dialogue and now running its office on rites and rituals.
But having ticked off those names, let me just say I'm not predicting that one of these five men will be the next pope. What I'm saying is they tend to have the kinds of qualities, background, life experience and so forth, that many of the cardinals seem to be looking for.
NGUYEN: And just quickly, not all the cardinals will get to vote. 117 will, but those who are 80 years old and older don't get to vote. Why is that?
ALLEN: That's actually a rule change that was put into place by Pope Paul VI. Very basic idea, that he believed that the -- that there is a certain argument that after you reach a certain age, you become perhaps a bit settled in your ideas. In addition to that, he also felt that over 80 cardinal should be relieved of the responsibility of having to vote for a pope.
Bear in mind, Pope VI made that change before the days of the Casa Santa Marta. And one element of all this was just simply the physical discomfort and difficulty of being locked up in the Apostolic Palace. Let me add about this, though, very quickly, that that rule change has never been completely uncontroversial. As you might imagine, back then and even today, some of the over 80 cardinals don't particularly care for it.
NGUYEN: John Allen, you are so full of knowledge when it comes to the Vatican and how it all works there. We thank you again.
ALLEN: Thank you, Betty.
NGUYEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, the world is mourning the loss of Pope John Paul II, but many Catholics had problems with the pope's strictness on social issues and the church's handling of the sex abuse scandal. We're going to take a look at American attitudes next.
And later, get pumped up. Maybe a better understanding of where all that extra money goes will help the gas pains go away. We'll see if it works for you, later on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Live to St. Patrick's Cathedral, where Cardinal Edward Egan of New York is addressing reporters as he gets ready to board a plane and head to the Vatican to vote for a new pope and pay his respects to Pope John Paul II.
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: ... I've received more letters than you can imagine. I've received all sorts of flowers, too. If anybody needs any flowers, I have them in abundance, from many people that I don't even know, people that simply wanted to express their affection, their love, their admiration for John Paul II.
So, I'm delighted I had these days here in New York. Now I'm going to go to Rome and it's not going to be weather like this, I don't think, but I hope it will. And I want to thank the press, the television, the radio, and all who have been so kind to us over this last week or so. And now it's up to you.
QUESTION: Cardinal, lay out what you anticipate you'll be doing as soon as you get to Rome, what you expect to happen (INAUDIBLE).
EGAN: Sure. What's your name again?
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) from Channel 4.
EGAN: Channel 4, WNBC. I'll have to watch that all the time, is that right? Very good. Except when you're watching channels 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth. All right. I have a friend that's been a friend of mine for 50 years and he owns a very wonderful hotel in Rome and he doesn't charge me, which is the best price you can get in the eternal city, especially when the dollar is not worth a whole lot anymore when you're paying in euros.
And so I'll go right to that hotel. I spoke to him again last night and he told me that if I don't come, our friendship is over. So I'll go there. But I don't think I'll be able to stay there very long. I think that the American cardinals will probably want all of us to be at the North American College, which is a seminary on the Junichulem (ph) Hill, next to St. Peter's virtually.
And so I'll go over there and I imagine I stay there until they tell us to come to the Santa Marta -- I'll tell you about that in a minute -- for being locked in and having a chance then to be involved in choosing the next successor of Peter.
Santa Marta is a kind of residence, beautifully built maybe ten years ago in Rome, and it has 120 rooms in it. Plus two dining rooms and several meeting rooms. Well, we're 117. So we ought to be able to fit in. And then maybe they'll let me allow Monsignor Mr. Chollo (ph) to come in, too. I'm hoping that maybe somebody will allow that, because I'd like to have him see all of this from within.
But in any case, we'll go to Santa Marta and then to go to the Sistine Chapel to do the voting, I understand we get in a little bus and the little bus takes us a very short distance away. And so that's where we'll be. Does that answer pretty well? Yes?
QUESTION: I'm wondering (INAUDIBLE) funeral. Do you have any comment on that?
EGAN: Well, actually, on Saturday night, that was my homily, about Ali Agca, just the way the Lord forgave Doubting Thomas -- you remember the story the Doubting Thomas? Unless I see the wounds in the hands, unless I put my hand in his side, I shall not believe, said Doubting Thomas. And then when he met the Lord, the Lord, of course, forgave him for the whole thing and I said that John Paul has done the best he could to imitate the Lord and he forgave Mehmet Ali Agca and he forgave him in the Rebidia Prison (ph), which is a tough prison in Rome. I visited one time.
Now, I heard from one of you -- and I believe everything you say, OK? I heard from one of you that his brother requested that he come to the funeral. I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly would be a very beautiful symbol to the world. But that all depends upon the warden of the Rebidia Prison (ph). Yes?
QUESTION: Cardinal, what were you doing in 1978, last time the pope (INAUDIBLE)?
EGAN: OK, I was working in the Corilla Romana (ph), as they say. Corilla Romana (ph), the various offices of the Vatican, are made up of congregations, committees, councils and tribunals. And I was one of the 14 judges of the sacred Roman Rota, R-O-T-A, OK? It's the tribunal that you make appeals to. It's not a first instance tribunal, it's an appeal court.
And I was living there and working in Rome. And according to the old rules -- John Paul has changed them -- the judges of the Rota were to protect the cardinals during the election. I wish you could have seen us. Some of us were about 75 years old and tottering. I don't know what protection we could have given.
But in any event, for the first election of 19 -- of John Paul I, I was one of 12 judges of the Rota who stood around and protected them as they went in, OK. Then when John Paul II was elected, they had only four of us and so at that time, I was right there until the cardinals enter into the Sistine Chapel and they say -- exeunt amnos (ph), let everyone leave, except them. And one of the papal secretaries, who speaks pretty good Latin, turned to me and said that means you, Egan. And so I left, too. Is that an answer? Very good.
QUESTION: Cardinal, I'm hoping you will talk a little bit about the conclave. First of all, you'll be in much more comfortable surroundings, because this pope had built such...
PHILLIPS: New York's cardinal Edward Egan, touching on a few serious issues, also showing his sense of humor. This is the cardinal that Pope John Paul II actually elevated to the College of Cardinals, and he's getting ready to head to the Vatican, show his respects for John Paul II. Made a funny note, saying that the good news is he won't be paying for a hotel, that's he got a connection there in Rome.
But on a serious note, a reporter asked him about the man who attempted to assassinate the pope, Mehmet Ali Agca and the reporter asked, do you think he should be able to go to the funeral? And he actually said it would be a beautiful symbol, if indeed that happened, seeming that forgiveness is exactly what Pope John Paul II really symbolized, as he led the Roman Catholic Church.
So anyway, we got to hear from New York's Cardinal Edward Egan as he gets ready to board a plane and honor his pope.
NGUYEN: And of course we have much more coverage to come, so stay tuned to CNN's LIVE FROM. We're going to take a quick break right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Have you pumped a tank of gas lately? Well, if not, you better brace yourself. The average price of gasoline has risen to $2.22 per gallon. That is high enough for people to start changing their driving habits.
PHILLIPS: CNN's Chris Huntington joins us live from New York with the rundown of where the money goes. Vicky Russell says you're going to start tearing up dollar bills, Chris, is that true?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know what, yes, I found the new American gas card. There it is. A $2 bill. Plus a quarter...
PHILLIPS: Hey, that's my lucky $2.00 bill. What are you doing with that?
HUNTINGTON: Yes, and $2.25 may only get you gas for about the next week, because gas prices are going to go up even higher in the next couple of weeks. Let's give you a rundown, though, and show you what goes into a gallon of gas right now at $2.22, which is the average price for a gallon of unleaded regular. We got a graphic here that we can show you that gives you a rundown basically of what goes into it and I'll play along here with my gas card.
Basically, about $1.19 goes right to the oil companies. You got another 53 cents or so that goes for refining. You got six cents for marketing and distribution, advertising and so forth. And the rest goes to state and local taxes. The fact is, though, that the gasoline prices that are at the pump right now were basically set in the wholesale markets about ten days, two weeks, ago.
Gas prices in the wholesale market have gone up to more than $1.70 a gallon, in other words, another dime from what we saw just a couple weeks ago. You're going to see that dime increase. The folks in the markets are telling us that you can see retail gasoline prices in New York City, where I am, for instance, at $2.50 in the next couple of weeks. Probably a lot higher on the West Coast. So, get used to it. $2 is the base level at best for a long time to come.
NGUYEN: Ouch. Hey, if you can tear up that quarter, now that would be a trick, Chris.
HUNTINGTON: I can bend it.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Chris Huntington. We're going to check the big board real quickly before we take a break. Dow Industrials up 36 points. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 5, 2005 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news, Iraq's Transitional National Assembly is poised to break new ground tomorrow. The governing body is expected to announce the names of Iraq's new political heavyweight. Longtime Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani is expected to be named Iraq's new president and Shiite leader Ibrahim al Jaafari is expected to be their pick for the new prime minister.
President Bush is expected to meet with his cabinet at this hour to wrap up any pressing business before he heads to Rome. The president and First Lady Laura Bush will be among the dignitaries attending the pope's funeral, which will take place on Friday. We will have more on that meeting, coming up just a little bit later, right here on LIVE FROM.
The longtime anchor of ABC's "World News Tonight," Peter Jennings, has lung cancer. He's expected to begin outpatient treatment next week. Jennings alerted his staff that he plans to keep working while he undergoes chemotherapy. The Canadian-born broadcaster has been ABC's main newsman since 1983.
And dangerous duty for a journalist in Iraq today. A reporter with a video camera was wounded by U.S. forces in Mosul when they apparently mistook the camera for a weapon. He was standing near an armed insurgent who was killed. That reporter was treated for minor wounds and the incident is under investigation.
PHILLIPS: A mass of mourners still making their way to St. Peter's Basilica to pay their respects to Pope John Paul II today. His death set off an elaborate series of rituals steeped in tradition for his burial, from the Swiss Guard to the manner in which the pope is attired, our Anderson Cooper explains the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): What a journey it was, borne on the shoulders of the papal gentlemen, men from distinguished families whose job it is to care for the pontiff in life and in death, and flanked by the elite Swiss Guard, protectors of the papacy for centuries.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, the Swiss Guards are a police force, if you like, for the pope. The origins date back to the Renaissance period, when the pope was still a secular monarch in central Italy. And they are aptly named, because the requirement to be a member of the Swiss Guard you must be a Swiss citizen. You must have done military service. You must be a baptized Catholic. DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The interesting thing about the Swiss Guards is yes, they have to protect the pope while he's alive and now, of course, they are protecting him still, even in his death.
COOPER: Tears mixed with cheers. As the procession made its way into St. Peter's Square, dozens upon dozens representing the ranks of religious life, monks, priests, bishops, cardinals, accompanying the pope while tens of thousands watched and mourned.
GALLAGHER: He's wearing his vestments as a bishop. A bishop is one of the most important positions in the church. Not even a cardinal, a bishop is the most important. Cardinals are also bishops. Now, the pope, of course, was also a cardinal. He was a bishop, a cardinal, and then pope.
COOPER: While parts of the pomp and circumstance of saying good- bye to the pope have been refined, the ritual grew from ancient roots and centuries of tradition. A church document sets the precise ceremony for laying the pontiff to rest, right down to the robes in which he's buried, crimson and white, symbolizing fire and purity, his miter a lasting symbol of his authority.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The pope, in addition to being pope, is also -- was also, at an earlier stage in his career, a cardinal. And that crimson is also a reminder of his identity as a cardinal. Cardinals wear crimson, by the way, because they take oaths of loyalty to the church, up to the shedding of their own blood.
The white miter that was placed upon the pope's head is the traditional bishop's headgear, so to speak. It has one horn in front, one horn in back, symbolizing the Old and New Testaments.
COOPER: Inside St. Peter's, a simple service, the liturgy of the word, a reading from the Gospel, presided over by the camerlengo, the cardinal in charge during the interregnum, the time between popes.
Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo was appointed to that position years ago by his friend, John Paul II.
ALLEN: He knew, obviously, he -- Martinez Somalo knew that this day must come at some stage, and so has been preparing himself, in some sense, to exercise these responsibilities for an awful long time.
GALLAGHER: It was a very moving ceremony, because we saw for the first time, the inside of the Apostolic Palace televised. We've seen pictures, but on television, we were able to see some of those beautiful rooms, painted by Raphael and then carrying them down -- carrying the pope down the stairs.
COOPER: We now know the pope will be buried on Friday morning, following an elaborate funeral mass, also dictated by tradition. And, like half his predecessors, he'll be buried in the grotto under St. Peter's, in a crypt that once belonged to Pope John XXIII, whose remains have been moved to the main floor of the basilica. Until then, Pope John Paul II belongs once more to his flock, the faithful he served, who now file past with one final prayer, a last good-bye.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: New details of the pope's funeral are being released. I want to talk about that with our Vatican analyst, John Allen, who is in Rome. He is the Rome correspondent for "The National Catholic Reporter" and author of "The Conclave." John, we learned today that the pope did, indeed, leave a will. What instructions did he leave for his burial?
ALLEN: Well, actually, we don't yet know anything about the will. What the Vatican spokesperson Joaquin Navarro-Valls in a press conference today said is the will has not yet been read. But it would also appear that in addition to the will, the pope also left at least one instruction for his burial, which is that he wants to be buried in the earth. And this is something of a break from papal tradition.
Normally, popes in the grotto in St. Peter's are placed in a sarcophagus, which is a sort of a marble box if you like, very ornate, that is -- that rests above ground. But in this case, the pope wants to be buried in the earth and so he will be and then a stone tablet will be placed on top of the burial site. Worth noting, of course, that that burial site will be that once occupied by Pope John XXIII, whom Pope John II beatified.
NGUYEN: I think you point out something very interesting, because when we think of wills, we think of burial instructions. We also think of possessions, who will get what. What is in a pope's will?
ALLEN: Yes, I mean, the pope does not have assets, so to speak, that he is disposing of. So a papal will is much more -- sort of a final spiritual message. And therefore, it's a kind of exhortation and a kind of summary of the words he wants to speak to Catholics and to the rest of the world. Often, popes will leave some specific instructions for the disposal of their papers and whatever personal effects are left. But typically, that's not actually in the formal testament.
And we're using will in kind of an informal sense. Actually, these documents normally are called testaments. And as you say, they're not the kind of wills that you and I are accustomed to think of.
NGUYEN: I want to look ahead now, because as we think of those 117 cardinals who will be choosing a new pope -- any idea who the front-runners may be right now?
ALLEN: Well, look, this is a very hazardous business. I like to say that the trash heaps of history are littered with the carcasses of people who have tried to predict the next pope. I mean, the raw reality is we don't know. Unlike secular politics, there are no polls or campaign war chests to look at. All we have are historical patterns and guesswork.
But, having said all that, I'll forge ahead and say that, sort of by general consensus, the people who pay attention to these things and listening to what cardinals are talking about, it would seem that men such as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was the pope's top doctrinal official, and I think by universal consensus, a man of great intellect, great spiritual depth. Very, very, well respected among his fellow cardinals, certainly would have to be on that list.
Probably someone like -- Latin Americans, such as Claudio Hummes, the cardinal of Sao Paulo, Brazil. Or Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the cardinal of Buenos Aires, in Argentina. Certainly the cardinal in Venice, Angelo Scola and perhaps a choice that would be particularly exciting, I think, for the world's imagination, would be an African pope. Cardinal Francis Arinze, who has been in Rome since 1984, first as head of the Vatican's office on interreligious dialogue and now running its office on rites and rituals.
But having ticked off those names, let me just say I'm not predicting that one of these five men will be the next pope. What I'm saying is they tend to have the kinds of qualities, background, life experience and so forth, that many of the cardinals seem to be looking for.
NGUYEN: And just quickly, not all the cardinals will get to vote. 117 will, but those who are 80 years old and older don't get to vote. Why is that?
ALLEN: That's actually a rule change that was put into place by Pope Paul VI. Very basic idea, that he believed that the -- that there is a certain argument that after you reach a certain age, you become perhaps a bit settled in your ideas. In addition to that, he also felt that over 80 cardinal should be relieved of the responsibility of having to vote for a pope.
Bear in mind, Pope VI made that change before the days of the Casa Santa Marta. And one element of all this was just simply the physical discomfort and difficulty of being locked up in the Apostolic Palace. Let me add about this, though, very quickly, that that rule change has never been completely uncontroversial. As you might imagine, back then and even today, some of the over 80 cardinals don't particularly care for it.
NGUYEN: John Allen, you are so full of knowledge when it comes to the Vatican and how it all works there. We thank you again.
ALLEN: Thank you, Betty.
NGUYEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, the world is mourning the loss of Pope John Paul II, but many Catholics had problems with the pope's strictness on social issues and the church's handling of the sex abuse scandal. We're going to take a look at American attitudes next.
And later, get pumped up. Maybe a better understanding of where all that extra money goes will help the gas pains go away. We'll see if it works for you, later on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Live to St. Patrick's Cathedral, where Cardinal Edward Egan of New York is addressing reporters as he gets ready to board a plane and head to the Vatican to vote for a new pope and pay his respects to Pope John Paul II.
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: ... I've received more letters than you can imagine. I've received all sorts of flowers, too. If anybody needs any flowers, I have them in abundance, from many people that I don't even know, people that simply wanted to express their affection, their love, their admiration for John Paul II.
So, I'm delighted I had these days here in New York. Now I'm going to go to Rome and it's not going to be weather like this, I don't think, but I hope it will. And I want to thank the press, the television, the radio, and all who have been so kind to us over this last week or so. And now it's up to you.
QUESTION: Cardinal, lay out what you anticipate you'll be doing as soon as you get to Rome, what you expect to happen (INAUDIBLE).
EGAN: Sure. What's your name again?
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) from Channel 4.
EGAN: Channel 4, WNBC. I'll have to watch that all the time, is that right? Very good. Except when you're watching channels 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth. All right. I have a friend that's been a friend of mine for 50 years and he owns a very wonderful hotel in Rome and he doesn't charge me, which is the best price you can get in the eternal city, especially when the dollar is not worth a whole lot anymore when you're paying in euros.
And so I'll go right to that hotel. I spoke to him again last night and he told me that if I don't come, our friendship is over. So I'll go there. But I don't think I'll be able to stay there very long. I think that the American cardinals will probably want all of us to be at the North American College, which is a seminary on the Junichulem (ph) Hill, next to St. Peter's virtually.
And so I'll go over there and I imagine I stay there until they tell us to come to the Santa Marta -- I'll tell you about that in a minute -- for being locked in and having a chance then to be involved in choosing the next successor of Peter.
Santa Marta is a kind of residence, beautifully built maybe ten years ago in Rome, and it has 120 rooms in it. Plus two dining rooms and several meeting rooms. Well, we're 117. So we ought to be able to fit in. And then maybe they'll let me allow Monsignor Mr. Chollo (ph) to come in, too. I'm hoping that maybe somebody will allow that, because I'd like to have him see all of this from within.
But in any case, we'll go to Santa Marta and then to go to the Sistine Chapel to do the voting, I understand we get in a little bus and the little bus takes us a very short distance away. And so that's where we'll be. Does that answer pretty well? Yes?
QUESTION: I'm wondering (INAUDIBLE) funeral. Do you have any comment on that?
EGAN: Well, actually, on Saturday night, that was my homily, about Ali Agca, just the way the Lord forgave Doubting Thomas -- you remember the story the Doubting Thomas? Unless I see the wounds in the hands, unless I put my hand in his side, I shall not believe, said Doubting Thomas. And then when he met the Lord, the Lord, of course, forgave him for the whole thing and I said that John Paul has done the best he could to imitate the Lord and he forgave Mehmet Ali Agca and he forgave him in the Rebidia Prison (ph), which is a tough prison in Rome. I visited one time.
Now, I heard from one of you -- and I believe everything you say, OK? I heard from one of you that his brother requested that he come to the funeral. I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly would be a very beautiful symbol to the world. But that all depends upon the warden of the Rebidia Prison (ph). Yes?
QUESTION: Cardinal, what were you doing in 1978, last time the pope (INAUDIBLE)?
EGAN: OK, I was working in the Corilla Romana (ph), as they say. Corilla Romana (ph), the various offices of the Vatican, are made up of congregations, committees, councils and tribunals. And I was one of the 14 judges of the sacred Roman Rota, R-O-T-A, OK? It's the tribunal that you make appeals to. It's not a first instance tribunal, it's an appeal court.
And I was living there and working in Rome. And according to the old rules -- John Paul has changed them -- the judges of the Rota were to protect the cardinals during the election. I wish you could have seen us. Some of us were about 75 years old and tottering. I don't know what protection we could have given.
But in any event, for the first election of 19 -- of John Paul I, I was one of 12 judges of the Rota who stood around and protected them as they went in, OK. Then when John Paul II was elected, they had only four of us and so at that time, I was right there until the cardinals enter into the Sistine Chapel and they say -- exeunt amnos (ph), let everyone leave, except them. And one of the papal secretaries, who speaks pretty good Latin, turned to me and said that means you, Egan. And so I left, too. Is that an answer? Very good.
QUESTION: Cardinal, I'm hoping you will talk a little bit about the conclave. First of all, you'll be in much more comfortable surroundings, because this pope had built such...
PHILLIPS: New York's cardinal Edward Egan, touching on a few serious issues, also showing his sense of humor. This is the cardinal that Pope John Paul II actually elevated to the College of Cardinals, and he's getting ready to head to the Vatican, show his respects for John Paul II. Made a funny note, saying that the good news is he won't be paying for a hotel, that's he got a connection there in Rome.
But on a serious note, a reporter asked him about the man who attempted to assassinate the pope, Mehmet Ali Agca and the reporter asked, do you think he should be able to go to the funeral? And he actually said it would be a beautiful symbol, if indeed that happened, seeming that forgiveness is exactly what Pope John Paul II really symbolized, as he led the Roman Catholic Church.
So anyway, we got to hear from New York's Cardinal Edward Egan as he gets ready to board a plane and honor his pope.
NGUYEN: And of course we have much more coverage to come, so stay tuned to CNN's LIVE FROM. We're going to take a quick break right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Have you pumped a tank of gas lately? Well, if not, you better brace yourself. The average price of gasoline has risen to $2.22 per gallon. That is high enough for people to start changing their driving habits.
PHILLIPS: CNN's Chris Huntington joins us live from New York with the rundown of where the money goes. Vicky Russell says you're going to start tearing up dollar bills, Chris, is that true?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know what, yes, I found the new American gas card. There it is. A $2 bill. Plus a quarter...
PHILLIPS: Hey, that's my lucky $2.00 bill. What are you doing with that?
HUNTINGTON: Yes, and $2.25 may only get you gas for about the next week, because gas prices are going to go up even higher in the next couple of weeks. Let's give you a rundown, though, and show you what goes into a gallon of gas right now at $2.22, which is the average price for a gallon of unleaded regular. We got a graphic here that we can show you that gives you a rundown basically of what goes into it and I'll play along here with my gas card.
Basically, about $1.19 goes right to the oil companies. You got another 53 cents or so that goes for refining. You got six cents for marketing and distribution, advertising and so forth. And the rest goes to state and local taxes. The fact is, though, that the gasoline prices that are at the pump right now were basically set in the wholesale markets about ten days, two weeks, ago.
Gas prices in the wholesale market have gone up to more than $1.70 a gallon, in other words, another dime from what we saw just a couple weeks ago. You're going to see that dime increase. The folks in the markets are telling us that you can see retail gasoline prices in New York City, where I am, for instance, at $2.50 in the next couple of weeks. Probably a lot higher on the West Coast. So, get used to it. $2 is the base level at best for a long time to come.
NGUYEN: Ouch. Hey, if you can tear up that quarter, now that would be a trick, Chris.
HUNTINGTON: I can bend it.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Chris Huntington. We're going to check the big board real quickly before we take a break. Dow Industrials up 36 points. We'll be right back.
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