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The Pope's Successor; Catholic Church Faces Modern Challenges
Aired April 12, 2005 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Taking a look at stories "Now in the News."
Harsh words regarding President Bush's pick to become the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. A former State Department official today called John Bolton a kiss up, kick down sort of guy, during a Senate hearing to consider his nomination. Bolton has faced considerable criticism from Democrats, but it's expected to win approval largely along party lines.
The stepfather of Michael Jackson's accuser is on the stand in the singer's child molestation trial. He told jurors that the boy's mother called him in distress from Neverland Ranch during the time that prosecutors alleged she and her children were being held captive, a claim that the pop star refutes. It's still unclear whether the accuser's mother will take the stand.
You can now buy a piece of history to commemorate the death of Pope John Paul II. Special stamps marking the period between popes went on sale today. The stamps feature the Vatican's traditional image of two crossed keys. Left off the stamp, the papal headgear.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Imagine covering an election that is conducted entirely in secret. There are 115 candidates and the winner could be announced at any moment. Oh, and no exit polls for guidance, just a puff of black or white or is it gray smoke signaling the end the process. That is the task facing reporter as the College of Cardinals prepares to begin the conclave that will select the next occupant of the throne of St. Peter.
Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has that very difficult assignment. He's been busy committing the biographies of more than 100 cardinals to memory.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Do you want my job?
O'BRIEN: Yes, and so you sandwiched us in and we do appreciate that. Alessio, let's just talk a little bit about what lies ahead. First of all, as far as getting information out, it's very difficult. This is, by its very nature, a secret process. Reporters don't like secrets. How do you work this story?
VINCI: Well, you work this story based on precedents, except that the last time an election like this happened was in, you know, 1978, more than 25 years ago. So it's very difficult to set precedent and to use those precedents. There is two big differences comparing this election to the one 25 years ago, 27 years ago, almost. And that is, first of all, the white and the black smoke. Back then, when there was white smoke, the election a new pope, people thought, was it gray? Was it...
O'BRIEN: There was confusion.
VINCI: It was very confusing. So this time around, Vatican says smoke and bells. Even the journalists can get it right.
O'BRIEN: That was the quote.
VINCI: That was the quote.
O'BRIEN: Even the journalists will understand this, if there's bells. OK, good.
VINCI: The second thing, of course, the fact that they used to be -- the cardinals electing the new pope were, you know, were locked into the Apostolic Palace, sleeping in cots, and really had to rush this election through, because, obviously, they wanted the new pope as quick as possible.
This time around, they're going to be in more comfortable settings. There's a new hotel attached to the Apostolic Palace and so they'll have the more time, a more comfortable time, to make an election. Nevertheless, I think it's going to be a fast election. What everybody expects.
O'BRIEN: Well, I want to talk about that in a moment. But that it is good, because many of these cardinals, of course, are very elderly. And to put them on cots in the Sistine Chapel to get the job done -- I guess it could be done, but wouldn't it be nicer if they had a little more comfort?
VINCI: That's the best real estate in Rome.
O'BRIEN: I should say there are worse places to be locked in. What is the thinking right now? What is sort of the tone in Rome right now? When you walk by cafes, is everybody, you know, on the cell phones, text messaging? Do you overhear them talking about cardinal so and so and cardinal this? Is it like that or is it much more quiet than that?
VINCI: Well, it's like that in the area surrounding the Vatican, not because of the cardinals and the priests and the bishops talking about this, but because there are 6,000 journalists there. And believe me, I mean, this is a huge number of press for such a small area around the Vatican. If you drive a mile away from there, life is normal in Rome and nobody really speaks about this.
And I guess next week, it will pick up if a little bit. But, I mean, for the time being, it's really quiet except for this area around the Vatican. Of course, there, you know, everybody's trying to get contacts, to find out if and how they're going to get that information before everybody else. But you know, we're going to have to wait for the smoke and bells, you know, before we go to air with it. O'BRIEN: Well, now, Alessio, that's 60 journalists per cardinal?
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: And their staff, of course.
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: So you have a task of -- competitive task here, which is tough.
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: Without revealing any trade secrets, how do you work this story?
VINCI: Well, you know, you have -- you have -- the cardinals will never give you the news. It's like, a little bit like the ministers in a government. You know, you never go to the minister to talk...
O'BRIEN: But the staff. It's always the key, right?
VINCI: And you have people working inside the Apostolic Palace who are friends and friends of friends and stuff like that. So there are ways to communicate with them, through modern technology, of course. But even then, you know, use this information to prepare yourself.
As I said -- as you said earlier, there's 115 candidates. Imagine having a presidential election in the U.S. Instead of having to have the biography of two, you have the biography of 115. So I'm hoping to get at least a few minutes earlier the name of the cardinal who will become pope, not necessarily to go to air, but at least to make sure that I pick out the notes.
O'BRIEN: At least get your facts straight. Yes, that's -- it's very important. And so maybe you might get somebody would will drop a dime on a cell phone, potentially.
VINCI: We'll see.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about who the next pope might be. All kinds of talk as to whether it's a continuum, sort of continue along the lines of John Paul. But if you hook at history, what -- what the cardinals have done is sort of reacted to the previous pope, the pendulum swinging back and forth.
VINCI: That's correct. They say in Rome...
O'BRIEN: Is that the thinking now?
VINCI: Yes, yes. They say in Rome, you know, a fat pope is always followed by a thin pope. It's true. And so it's -- I don't think anybody -- I mean, poor guy who's going to try to follow the steps of Pope John Paul II and imitate him. I don't think that's going to happen.
O'BRIEN: No. Can't be done. Can't be done.
VINCI: Well, it will can be done. I mean, I think that the new pope will want to put his own stamp. He's going to want to be different. I think he's going to realize, though, that this pope has done incredibly well, in terms of public opinion. I mean, here's a pope that has been criticized quite a bit, but yet, look at the funeral. You know, 200 heads of states and governments. Religious leaders from around the world.
That funeral, and that Friday, had an impact on the cardinals' elections. They realize that despite the fact this pope has done a lot of positive things and perhaps not so well in terms of the more traditional teachings -- at the same time, he brought a huge crowd to the Vatican. And therefore, I think that the next pope will have to be somebody who, on the one side, can speak to the masses, but at the same, won't necessarily -- won't try travel as much as, for example, this pope has, using perhaps more of the media. I mean, you can be in the Vatican now and be broadcast around the world through Vatican television.
O'BRIEN: All right. And worth pointing out as we button this up, Alessio, that almost everybody who's doing the voting was, in fact, selected by Pope John Paul, so in some sense, it could reflect him.
VINCI: I can there's a lot of cardinals in there who had a lot of respect when he was alive, but they're, you know, happy now that there's a new change.
O'BRIEN: They're their own man.
VINCI: 25, 26 years is a long time, even for the church.
O'BRIEN: All right. Alessio Vinci, we look forward to seeing more reports during the conclave from you. Thanks for dropping by. Appreciate it.
VINCI: You're welcome. Bye bye.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk more about the issues. Will future priests be allowed to marry? Will women Catholics become ordained? How will the pope address the sex abuse scandal? The Catholic Church is facing modern issues, a shortage of priests and loyal church members in America. Many Catholics say it's because the church doctrine is simply too strict. So is it time for change?
Joining me now, Father Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University and Sister Christine Schenk from FutureChurch. It's great to have you both.
Father Fessio, let's begin with you. Do we need a more progressive pope? REV. JOSEPH FESSIO, INGATIUS PRESS: Well, you see, Catholics have this quaint idea that God has given us a message of love and wisdom that enriches our live and we need to explain it, pass it on, live it, teach it, defend it, not change it. So there will always be continuity in the Catholic Church because that's what it's all about, it's about maintaining the beautiful message of love and wisdom that God has given us.
PHILLIPS: Christine Schenk, how do you feel about that?
SISTER CHRISTINE SCHENK, FUTURECHURCH: Well, I think it's definitely is about maintaining the love and wisdom that God has given us, but it's also about being able to communicate it to the times. And certainly we know through church history that the word of God is alive and active in every period of history, and no less so than in ours.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's get down to the issues. That's how we set this up.
FESSIO: Well, Kyra...
PHILLIPS: Yes, Father, go ahead.
FESSIO: Well, I mean, I agree with Sister there, but who has communicated this better than Pope John Paul II? Why were there millions of people at his funeral? Why did more people watch than anybody in the world? Because he communicates the truth, which is the truth of the Church and of Christ. We need another pope that will do that. We need that continuity.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about continuity. Let's talk about numbers. Sister Schenk, I know you that track a lot of numbers, especially when it comes down to women's rights and women being more empowered within the Catholic Church. What are the numbers when it come to female Catholic growth? Just the numbers of that population? And also, ministry in the church, when it comes to women?
SCHENK: I think the overarching challenge facing the next pope, who I hope will be as dynamic and outgoing as this pope -- the fact is, we have a worldwide shortage of priests. In the last thirty years we've had a 52 percent increase in the number of Catholics, but the number of priests have remained exactly the same at 405,000.
We have, all over the United States, parishes closing and clustering because there are too few priests. Worldwide in Africa, we have one priest for 4,000 Catholics. We have, in Central America, one priest for 8,000 Catholics. You just have to look at -- 405,000 for 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide, and you can see right there, where are we going to have the priests that are going to provide the mass and the sacraments for Catholics? And so FutureChurch is asking for a -- discussing an end to mandatory celibacy and opening the Deacedent (ph) to the ten of thousands of women serving in the church now.
To get to the numbers, we have 405,000 priest worldwide, 738,000 nuns... FESSIO: Sister, there's a...
SCHENK: 3.8 million catacus (ph), of whom over half are women...
PHILLIPS: OK, that's interesting, when you look at the numbers of nuns versus the number of priests, Father Fessio, it seems that it would only make sense if you wanted the church to grow and become more diverse that you would allow women to reach a higher level within the church.
FESSIO: It would seem to make sense, but there's both an empirical problem with that argument and also a theoretical one. The empirical one is that those churches which do have women priests or women ministers, have the same vocation difficulties the Catholic Church does.
SCHENK: That's not true.
FESSIO: Well, it is true, but...
SCHENK: No, it isn't, not in the United States it isn't.
PHILLIPS: Father, make your point, and Sister Schenk...
SCHENK: I'm sorry.
PHILLIPS: No, that's OK.
Go ahead, father, make your point.
FESSIO: Sister, I tried to listen, sister, patiently while you spoke; please give me the same respect.
SCHENK: Yes, I'm sorry.
FESSIO: If I go to the Women Church of the Future's (ph) Web site and look at different dioceses, you have very nice series of data there, in Los Angeles, you've got one priest for 3,500 people, Catholics. In Lincoln, Nebraska, one priest for 350. If you look at different dioceses, you'll find there's only priest shortages in some; in others they're not. If you look any further, you'll find out those diocese that are closer to the fullness of Catholic (INAUDIBLE) tradition have more vocations. They're exporting vocations.
So there's not a vocation crisis in the Catholic Church; there's a formation crisis and Episcopal crisis.
PHILLIPS: Now what's interesting is father mentioned your Web site, Sister Schenk, and I did take a look at it, and you point out something very interesting with regard to history, even going back to the frescoes and the mosaics.
SCHENK: Right.
PHILLIPS: You lay out how they verified female deacons and women's ordination years and years ago. As a matter of fact, I believe we put some of these pictures together. Give us a little bit of that history.
SCHENK: Yes, it's often said that there is no history of women's ordination in the Catholic Church, but in fact, contemporary scholarship by literary experts and archaeologists, perhaps foremost is Uda Ethan (ph), who wrote a wonderful book called "Women Office Holders in the Early Church," found widespread evidence from tombstones, both in the eastern church and the western church, of women who served their churches as deacons, theologians, priests and even bishops.
They were inscribed with Presbetera (ph), Deakanos (ph), the same word that Paul used to describe himself, that he used also to describe Phoebe, and it's on the tombstones and literary evidence. There's frescoes in Rome, at the Church of St. Praxides (ph), a mosaic, and at the Catacombs of Priscilla, showing that women did serve their communities in these leadership roles and the way that priesthood and being a bishop was understood in those times.
So while we may say, OK, we won't talk about women's ordination in the Catholic Church now, it's really not true to say that there has not been a tradition of this in the church right up until the 13th century, if you listen to Professor Gary Macy.
So I think it's one of those conversations we need to reopen in the church, particularly around the Deacedent, since that has not been taken off the table, and there's certainly a need -- God knows there's a need -- to provide sacraments to catholic people, and we think that the tens of thousands of women ministers serving in the church can provide that service, not to mention the 125,000 men who left the active ministry to marry worldwide that could also provide Eucharist for our Catholic communities.
PHILLIPS: Father Fessio, I've got to let you have the final thought there, just considering the historical perspective that Sister Schenk gave us.
FESSIO: Well, the problem with it is that it's false. There have been no deacons, priests, bishops or popes who were women in the sense we know today. The wife of a deacon was called a "deaconess." The wife of a priest was often called a "priestess." So we do have those tombstones.
But as a matter of fact, all they show is that there were some deacons who were married and some priests who were married. By the way, the priests who were married had to take a vow of continence -- even though they were married, they could not have sexual relations with their wives.
(CROSSTALK)
FESSIO: The definitive book is by Cochini (ph), and the definitive book on deaconesses is by Amy Markumara (ph), which proves these things beyond any shadow of a doubt to any reasonable observer.
PHILLIPS: Father Joseph -- yes? FESSIO: Tradition, by the way, is not something which jumps over centuries. Tradition is a continuous passing on of the church's teaching and practices. So we also as Catholics hold that Christ has given us an interpreter, both of scripture and of tradition called the (INAUDIBLE) teaching of the church, as the (INAUDIBLE)...
PHILLIPS: All right, part two to this discussion is going to be living tradition, that is for sure. Father Joseph Fessio, Sister Christine Schenk, we could continue, and I promise to bring you both back. It's a great discussion.
We'll have more to talk about, for sure. Thank you, both.
SCHENK: Thank you.
FESSIO: OK, God bless you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Thank you.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Well, what did Julius Caesar, Thomas Jefferson, Vincent Van Gogh, Virginia Woolf and Elvis all have in common? Well, all were reportedly migraine sufferers.
PHILLIPS: All very brilliant, too.
Well, an estimated 26 million Americans suffer from these debilitating headaches. But could cosmetic surgery end the misery? Dr. Sanjay Gupta on why some say a facelift could change your life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The agony she was enduring every week was crippling, almost insufferable.
KATHY KRAMER, FMR. MIGRAINE SUFFERER: I was pretty sure I had a brain tumor, or I was having an aneurysm or something, and the pain sometimes would just make me cry sometimes.
GUPTA: Forty-eight-year-old Kathy Kramer is describing migraine headaches that ruled her life since college. The pressure days she wasn't bedridden or writhing in pain were spent worrying about the next headache.
KRAMER: You don't live your life normally like other people do. It's debilitating, yes, and then you worry every day whether it's going to happen.
GUPTA: Then, through the painful haze, a glimmer of hope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was some kind of promo, like we have a cure that will even actually make you look younger. GUPTA: A promise to relieve migraines through plastic surgery. Dr. Bahman Guyuron, the surgeon in Ohio, is the man behind the promise. He noticed an interesting side effect in patients undergoing plastic surgery. Their migraines were vanishing as rapidly as their wrinkles.
DR. BAHMAN GUYURON, OHIO SURGEON: They said not only am I happy with what I see, I haven't had migraine headaches for a while.
GUPTA: After several studies, he an colleagues devised a surgical technique targeting muscle groups the septum, in the forehead, or frowning muscles, in the temple and base of the skull, places Guyuron he says pressure nerve, which in turn causes migraines. The surgery's premise, remove the muscles and nerves to alleviate that pain.
The consequence of surgery, according to Guyuron's most recent study, 92 percent of patients saw at least a 50 percent dip in the frequency and intensity of their migraines. But some neurologists, like Dr. Seymour Solomon, question those findings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These numbers are accurate, but the methodology makes them meaningless. It's completely contrary to what we know about the mechanism of migraine. Cutting a couple of muscles here should have no effect.
GUPTA: Dr. Guyuron is not claiming his surgery is a total cure, but believes it has potential.
GUYURON: We really are not eliminating the tendency for migraine headaches. For practical purposes, if patients are symptom-free and continue to be symptom-free, we have cured them from the condition.
KRAMER: You're doing tricks.
GUPTA: Two and a half years after her operation, Kramer experiences minor headaches infrequently, but...
KRAMER: Basically, I would tell you I've had zero migraines. You realize there is a freedom that I had never had in my life and you go, this is life altering.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, as prom season gets into full swing, a sobering story of prom night drinking and driving. Some Orlando parents hope to keep their teens safe by hiring an adult driver.
O'BRIEN: It turns out they forget to make it clear they wanted a responsible adult.
Here's reporter Scott Thurmond (ph) from our affiliate, WFTV. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT THURMOND (ph), WFTV REPORTER: The pictures are of a prom these winter spring students won't soon forget. As you can see, their background no longer a limousining, but a sheriff's cruiser.
PATRICK CURLEY, STUDENT: We wanted to get to prom sooner or later, and she had no idea where she was or what she was doing.
THURMOND: Patrick Curley was in the limo when he and nine other students realized the driver was having problems, appearing lost, confused, and they say braking just about every traffic violation they could think of. They start to get cleared.
CURLEY: Getting on I-4 like that, we would have been done.
THURMOND (on camera): You were certain she was drunk?
CURLEY: Yes.
THURMOND (voice-over): They convinced her to pull over and called their parents, who immediately dialed 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I rented a limo for my kids to go to prom.
OPERATOR: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver is drunk.
OPERATOR: Oh, you're kidding?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
THURMOND: Soon after, deputies arrested this 49-year-old Christina Tomacelli.
(on camera): Were you drinking that night?
CHRISTINA TOMACELLI: No, sir.
THURMOND (voice-over): While students and officers say Tomacelli admitted to drinking and had a half empty bottle of vodka in the car, she told us an injured knee was the reason for her erratic driving.
TOMACELLI: I had taken some medication that evening and I did not eat.
THURMOND: Her driving history, though, is extensive. She's been arrested in the past an 15 years for DUI three times now, as well as multiple citations for open-container violations, operating an unsafe vehicle, passing in the wrong lane and not wearing a seat belt.
STEVE OLSEN, SEMINOLE CO. SHERIFF'S OFFICE: So these kids did the right thing. Just all kinds of right things happened here that kept a potential tragedy from happening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Well, even the United States Supreme Court has to ask Congress for money. A pair of Supreme Court justices were there today before the Appropriations Committee at the House, to ask for, among other things, about $640,000 in their budget for another officer to be posted in the High Court's front plaza. This comes on the heels of course of what we saw yesterday. That man dressed in dark clothing with two suitcases standing still, ultimately turned out to be nothing more than a harmless event. But nevertheless, caused the SWAT team to be deployed, as well as his bags to be exploded.
In addition, Justice Anthony Kennedy had a few words about the Chief Justice Rehnquist, who of course has been ailing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY, U.S. SUPREME KENNEDY: We bring you greetings from our colleagues and from the chief justice. I talked with the chief justice to advise him that we're coming over. He has gone through the budget with us, and is fully informed on the nature of our request. I can report to you that the chief justice is in good spirits and is participating actively in the work of the court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Justice Anthony Kennedy, just a few moments ago.
PHILLIPS: I believe we're going to start the second hour of LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: Let's do that, shall we? Take a break, and then come back.
PHILLIPS: Perfect. Stay with us.
O'BRIEN; Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 12, 2005 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Taking a look at stories "Now in the News."
Harsh words regarding President Bush's pick to become the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. A former State Department official today called John Bolton a kiss up, kick down sort of guy, during a Senate hearing to consider his nomination. Bolton has faced considerable criticism from Democrats, but it's expected to win approval largely along party lines.
The stepfather of Michael Jackson's accuser is on the stand in the singer's child molestation trial. He told jurors that the boy's mother called him in distress from Neverland Ranch during the time that prosecutors alleged she and her children were being held captive, a claim that the pop star refutes. It's still unclear whether the accuser's mother will take the stand.
You can now buy a piece of history to commemorate the death of Pope John Paul II. Special stamps marking the period between popes went on sale today. The stamps feature the Vatican's traditional image of two crossed keys. Left off the stamp, the papal headgear.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Imagine covering an election that is conducted entirely in secret. There are 115 candidates and the winner could be announced at any moment. Oh, and no exit polls for guidance, just a puff of black or white or is it gray smoke signaling the end the process. That is the task facing reporter as the College of Cardinals prepares to begin the conclave that will select the next occupant of the throne of St. Peter.
Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has that very difficult assignment. He's been busy committing the biographies of more than 100 cardinals to memory.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Do you want my job?
O'BRIEN: Yes, and so you sandwiched us in and we do appreciate that. Alessio, let's just talk a little bit about what lies ahead. First of all, as far as getting information out, it's very difficult. This is, by its very nature, a secret process. Reporters don't like secrets. How do you work this story?
VINCI: Well, you work this story based on precedents, except that the last time an election like this happened was in, you know, 1978, more than 25 years ago. So it's very difficult to set precedent and to use those precedents. There is two big differences comparing this election to the one 25 years ago, 27 years ago, almost. And that is, first of all, the white and the black smoke. Back then, when there was white smoke, the election a new pope, people thought, was it gray? Was it...
O'BRIEN: There was confusion.
VINCI: It was very confusing. So this time around, Vatican says smoke and bells. Even the journalists can get it right.
O'BRIEN: That was the quote.
VINCI: That was the quote.
O'BRIEN: Even the journalists will understand this, if there's bells. OK, good.
VINCI: The second thing, of course, the fact that they used to be -- the cardinals electing the new pope were, you know, were locked into the Apostolic Palace, sleeping in cots, and really had to rush this election through, because, obviously, they wanted the new pope as quick as possible.
This time around, they're going to be in more comfortable settings. There's a new hotel attached to the Apostolic Palace and so they'll have the more time, a more comfortable time, to make an election. Nevertheless, I think it's going to be a fast election. What everybody expects.
O'BRIEN: Well, I want to talk about that in a moment. But that it is good, because many of these cardinals, of course, are very elderly. And to put them on cots in the Sistine Chapel to get the job done -- I guess it could be done, but wouldn't it be nicer if they had a little more comfort?
VINCI: That's the best real estate in Rome.
O'BRIEN: I should say there are worse places to be locked in. What is the thinking right now? What is sort of the tone in Rome right now? When you walk by cafes, is everybody, you know, on the cell phones, text messaging? Do you overhear them talking about cardinal so and so and cardinal this? Is it like that or is it much more quiet than that?
VINCI: Well, it's like that in the area surrounding the Vatican, not because of the cardinals and the priests and the bishops talking about this, but because there are 6,000 journalists there. And believe me, I mean, this is a huge number of press for such a small area around the Vatican. If you drive a mile away from there, life is normal in Rome and nobody really speaks about this.
And I guess next week, it will pick up if a little bit. But, I mean, for the time being, it's really quiet except for this area around the Vatican. Of course, there, you know, everybody's trying to get contacts, to find out if and how they're going to get that information before everybody else. But you know, we're going to have to wait for the smoke and bells, you know, before we go to air with it. O'BRIEN: Well, now, Alessio, that's 60 journalists per cardinal?
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: And their staff, of course.
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: So you have a task of -- competitive task here, which is tough.
VINCI: Right.
O'BRIEN: Without revealing any trade secrets, how do you work this story?
VINCI: Well, you know, you have -- you have -- the cardinals will never give you the news. It's like, a little bit like the ministers in a government. You know, you never go to the minister to talk...
O'BRIEN: But the staff. It's always the key, right?
VINCI: And you have people working inside the Apostolic Palace who are friends and friends of friends and stuff like that. So there are ways to communicate with them, through modern technology, of course. But even then, you know, use this information to prepare yourself.
As I said -- as you said earlier, there's 115 candidates. Imagine having a presidential election in the U.S. Instead of having to have the biography of two, you have the biography of 115. So I'm hoping to get at least a few minutes earlier the name of the cardinal who will become pope, not necessarily to go to air, but at least to make sure that I pick out the notes.
O'BRIEN: At least get your facts straight. Yes, that's -- it's very important. And so maybe you might get somebody would will drop a dime on a cell phone, potentially.
VINCI: We'll see.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about who the next pope might be. All kinds of talk as to whether it's a continuum, sort of continue along the lines of John Paul. But if you hook at history, what -- what the cardinals have done is sort of reacted to the previous pope, the pendulum swinging back and forth.
VINCI: That's correct. They say in Rome...
O'BRIEN: Is that the thinking now?
VINCI: Yes, yes. They say in Rome, you know, a fat pope is always followed by a thin pope. It's true. And so it's -- I don't think anybody -- I mean, poor guy who's going to try to follow the steps of Pope John Paul II and imitate him. I don't think that's going to happen.
O'BRIEN: No. Can't be done. Can't be done.
VINCI: Well, it will can be done. I mean, I think that the new pope will want to put his own stamp. He's going to want to be different. I think he's going to realize, though, that this pope has done incredibly well, in terms of public opinion. I mean, here's a pope that has been criticized quite a bit, but yet, look at the funeral. You know, 200 heads of states and governments. Religious leaders from around the world.
That funeral, and that Friday, had an impact on the cardinals' elections. They realize that despite the fact this pope has done a lot of positive things and perhaps not so well in terms of the more traditional teachings -- at the same time, he brought a huge crowd to the Vatican. And therefore, I think that the next pope will have to be somebody who, on the one side, can speak to the masses, but at the same, won't necessarily -- won't try travel as much as, for example, this pope has, using perhaps more of the media. I mean, you can be in the Vatican now and be broadcast around the world through Vatican television.
O'BRIEN: All right. And worth pointing out as we button this up, Alessio, that almost everybody who's doing the voting was, in fact, selected by Pope John Paul, so in some sense, it could reflect him.
VINCI: I can there's a lot of cardinals in there who had a lot of respect when he was alive, but they're, you know, happy now that there's a new change.
O'BRIEN: They're their own man.
VINCI: 25, 26 years is a long time, even for the church.
O'BRIEN: All right. Alessio Vinci, we look forward to seeing more reports during the conclave from you. Thanks for dropping by. Appreciate it.
VINCI: You're welcome. Bye bye.
O'BRIEN: Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk more about the issues. Will future priests be allowed to marry? Will women Catholics become ordained? How will the pope address the sex abuse scandal? The Catholic Church is facing modern issues, a shortage of priests and loyal church members in America. Many Catholics say it's because the church doctrine is simply too strict. So is it time for change?
Joining me now, Father Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University and Sister Christine Schenk from FutureChurch. It's great to have you both.
Father Fessio, let's begin with you. Do we need a more progressive pope? REV. JOSEPH FESSIO, INGATIUS PRESS: Well, you see, Catholics have this quaint idea that God has given us a message of love and wisdom that enriches our live and we need to explain it, pass it on, live it, teach it, defend it, not change it. So there will always be continuity in the Catholic Church because that's what it's all about, it's about maintaining the beautiful message of love and wisdom that God has given us.
PHILLIPS: Christine Schenk, how do you feel about that?
SISTER CHRISTINE SCHENK, FUTURECHURCH: Well, I think it's definitely is about maintaining the love and wisdom that God has given us, but it's also about being able to communicate it to the times. And certainly we know through church history that the word of God is alive and active in every period of history, and no less so than in ours.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's get down to the issues. That's how we set this up.
FESSIO: Well, Kyra...
PHILLIPS: Yes, Father, go ahead.
FESSIO: Well, I mean, I agree with Sister there, but who has communicated this better than Pope John Paul II? Why were there millions of people at his funeral? Why did more people watch than anybody in the world? Because he communicates the truth, which is the truth of the Church and of Christ. We need another pope that will do that. We need that continuity.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about continuity. Let's talk about numbers. Sister Schenk, I know you that track a lot of numbers, especially when it comes down to women's rights and women being more empowered within the Catholic Church. What are the numbers when it come to female Catholic growth? Just the numbers of that population? And also, ministry in the church, when it comes to women?
SCHENK: I think the overarching challenge facing the next pope, who I hope will be as dynamic and outgoing as this pope -- the fact is, we have a worldwide shortage of priests. In the last thirty years we've had a 52 percent increase in the number of Catholics, but the number of priests have remained exactly the same at 405,000.
We have, all over the United States, parishes closing and clustering because there are too few priests. Worldwide in Africa, we have one priest for 4,000 Catholics. We have, in Central America, one priest for 8,000 Catholics. You just have to look at -- 405,000 for 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide, and you can see right there, where are we going to have the priests that are going to provide the mass and the sacraments for Catholics? And so FutureChurch is asking for a -- discussing an end to mandatory celibacy and opening the Deacedent (ph) to the ten of thousands of women serving in the church now.
To get to the numbers, we have 405,000 priest worldwide, 738,000 nuns... FESSIO: Sister, there's a...
SCHENK: 3.8 million catacus (ph), of whom over half are women...
PHILLIPS: OK, that's interesting, when you look at the numbers of nuns versus the number of priests, Father Fessio, it seems that it would only make sense if you wanted the church to grow and become more diverse that you would allow women to reach a higher level within the church.
FESSIO: It would seem to make sense, but there's both an empirical problem with that argument and also a theoretical one. The empirical one is that those churches which do have women priests or women ministers, have the same vocation difficulties the Catholic Church does.
SCHENK: That's not true.
FESSIO: Well, it is true, but...
SCHENK: No, it isn't, not in the United States it isn't.
PHILLIPS: Father, make your point, and Sister Schenk...
SCHENK: I'm sorry.
PHILLIPS: No, that's OK.
Go ahead, father, make your point.
FESSIO: Sister, I tried to listen, sister, patiently while you spoke; please give me the same respect.
SCHENK: Yes, I'm sorry.
FESSIO: If I go to the Women Church of the Future's (ph) Web site and look at different dioceses, you have very nice series of data there, in Los Angeles, you've got one priest for 3,500 people, Catholics. In Lincoln, Nebraska, one priest for 350. If you look at different dioceses, you'll find there's only priest shortages in some; in others they're not. If you look any further, you'll find out those diocese that are closer to the fullness of Catholic (INAUDIBLE) tradition have more vocations. They're exporting vocations.
So there's not a vocation crisis in the Catholic Church; there's a formation crisis and Episcopal crisis.
PHILLIPS: Now what's interesting is father mentioned your Web site, Sister Schenk, and I did take a look at it, and you point out something very interesting with regard to history, even going back to the frescoes and the mosaics.
SCHENK: Right.
PHILLIPS: You lay out how they verified female deacons and women's ordination years and years ago. As a matter of fact, I believe we put some of these pictures together. Give us a little bit of that history.
SCHENK: Yes, it's often said that there is no history of women's ordination in the Catholic Church, but in fact, contemporary scholarship by literary experts and archaeologists, perhaps foremost is Uda Ethan (ph), who wrote a wonderful book called "Women Office Holders in the Early Church," found widespread evidence from tombstones, both in the eastern church and the western church, of women who served their churches as deacons, theologians, priests and even bishops.
They were inscribed with Presbetera (ph), Deakanos (ph), the same word that Paul used to describe himself, that he used also to describe Phoebe, and it's on the tombstones and literary evidence. There's frescoes in Rome, at the Church of St. Praxides (ph), a mosaic, and at the Catacombs of Priscilla, showing that women did serve their communities in these leadership roles and the way that priesthood and being a bishop was understood in those times.
So while we may say, OK, we won't talk about women's ordination in the Catholic Church now, it's really not true to say that there has not been a tradition of this in the church right up until the 13th century, if you listen to Professor Gary Macy.
So I think it's one of those conversations we need to reopen in the church, particularly around the Deacedent, since that has not been taken off the table, and there's certainly a need -- God knows there's a need -- to provide sacraments to catholic people, and we think that the tens of thousands of women ministers serving in the church can provide that service, not to mention the 125,000 men who left the active ministry to marry worldwide that could also provide Eucharist for our Catholic communities.
PHILLIPS: Father Fessio, I've got to let you have the final thought there, just considering the historical perspective that Sister Schenk gave us.
FESSIO: Well, the problem with it is that it's false. There have been no deacons, priests, bishops or popes who were women in the sense we know today. The wife of a deacon was called a "deaconess." The wife of a priest was often called a "priestess." So we do have those tombstones.
But as a matter of fact, all they show is that there were some deacons who were married and some priests who were married. By the way, the priests who were married had to take a vow of continence -- even though they were married, they could not have sexual relations with their wives.
(CROSSTALK)
FESSIO: The definitive book is by Cochini (ph), and the definitive book on deaconesses is by Amy Markumara (ph), which proves these things beyond any shadow of a doubt to any reasonable observer.
PHILLIPS: Father Joseph -- yes? FESSIO: Tradition, by the way, is not something which jumps over centuries. Tradition is a continuous passing on of the church's teaching and practices. So we also as Catholics hold that Christ has given us an interpreter, both of scripture and of tradition called the (INAUDIBLE) teaching of the church, as the (INAUDIBLE)...
PHILLIPS: All right, part two to this discussion is going to be living tradition, that is for sure. Father Joseph Fessio, Sister Christine Schenk, we could continue, and I promise to bring you both back. It's a great discussion.
We'll have more to talk about, for sure. Thank you, both.
SCHENK: Thank you.
FESSIO: OK, God bless you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Thank you.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Well, what did Julius Caesar, Thomas Jefferson, Vincent Van Gogh, Virginia Woolf and Elvis all have in common? Well, all were reportedly migraine sufferers.
PHILLIPS: All very brilliant, too.
Well, an estimated 26 million Americans suffer from these debilitating headaches. But could cosmetic surgery end the misery? Dr. Sanjay Gupta on why some say a facelift could change your life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The agony she was enduring every week was crippling, almost insufferable.
KATHY KRAMER, FMR. MIGRAINE SUFFERER: I was pretty sure I had a brain tumor, or I was having an aneurysm or something, and the pain sometimes would just make me cry sometimes.
GUPTA: Forty-eight-year-old Kathy Kramer is describing migraine headaches that ruled her life since college. The pressure days she wasn't bedridden or writhing in pain were spent worrying about the next headache.
KRAMER: You don't live your life normally like other people do. It's debilitating, yes, and then you worry every day whether it's going to happen.
GUPTA: Then, through the painful haze, a glimmer of hope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was some kind of promo, like we have a cure that will even actually make you look younger. GUPTA: A promise to relieve migraines through plastic surgery. Dr. Bahman Guyuron, the surgeon in Ohio, is the man behind the promise. He noticed an interesting side effect in patients undergoing plastic surgery. Their migraines were vanishing as rapidly as their wrinkles.
DR. BAHMAN GUYURON, OHIO SURGEON: They said not only am I happy with what I see, I haven't had migraine headaches for a while.
GUPTA: After several studies, he an colleagues devised a surgical technique targeting muscle groups the septum, in the forehead, or frowning muscles, in the temple and base of the skull, places Guyuron he says pressure nerve, which in turn causes migraines. The surgery's premise, remove the muscles and nerves to alleviate that pain.
The consequence of surgery, according to Guyuron's most recent study, 92 percent of patients saw at least a 50 percent dip in the frequency and intensity of their migraines. But some neurologists, like Dr. Seymour Solomon, question those findings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These numbers are accurate, but the methodology makes them meaningless. It's completely contrary to what we know about the mechanism of migraine. Cutting a couple of muscles here should have no effect.
GUPTA: Dr. Guyuron is not claiming his surgery is a total cure, but believes it has potential.
GUYURON: We really are not eliminating the tendency for migraine headaches. For practical purposes, if patients are symptom-free and continue to be symptom-free, we have cured them from the condition.
KRAMER: You're doing tricks.
GUPTA: Two and a half years after her operation, Kramer experiences minor headaches infrequently, but...
KRAMER: Basically, I would tell you I've had zero migraines. You realize there is a freedom that I had never had in my life and you go, this is life altering.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, as prom season gets into full swing, a sobering story of prom night drinking and driving. Some Orlando parents hope to keep their teens safe by hiring an adult driver.
O'BRIEN: It turns out they forget to make it clear they wanted a responsible adult.
Here's reporter Scott Thurmond (ph) from our affiliate, WFTV. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT THURMOND (ph), WFTV REPORTER: The pictures are of a prom these winter spring students won't soon forget. As you can see, their background no longer a limousining, but a sheriff's cruiser.
PATRICK CURLEY, STUDENT: We wanted to get to prom sooner or later, and she had no idea where she was or what she was doing.
THURMOND: Patrick Curley was in the limo when he and nine other students realized the driver was having problems, appearing lost, confused, and they say braking just about every traffic violation they could think of. They start to get cleared.
CURLEY: Getting on I-4 like that, we would have been done.
THURMOND (on camera): You were certain she was drunk?
CURLEY: Yes.
THURMOND (voice-over): They convinced her to pull over and called their parents, who immediately dialed 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I rented a limo for my kids to go to prom.
OPERATOR: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver is drunk.
OPERATOR: Oh, you're kidding?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
THURMOND: Soon after, deputies arrested this 49-year-old Christina Tomacelli.
(on camera): Were you drinking that night?
CHRISTINA TOMACELLI: No, sir.
THURMOND (voice-over): While students and officers say Tomacelli admitted to drinking and had a half empty bottle of vodka in the car, she told us an injured knee was the reason for her erratic driving.
TOMACELLI: I had taken some medication that evening and I did not eat.
THURMOND: Her driving history, though, is extensive. She's been arrested in the past an 15 years for DUI three times now, as well as multiple citations for open-container violations, operating an unsafe vehicle, passing in the wrong lane and not wearing a seat belt.
STEVE OLSEN, SEMINOLE CO. SHERIFF'S OFFICE: So these kids did the right thing. Just all kinds of right things happened here that kept a potential tragedy from happening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Well, even the United States Supreme Court has to ask Congress for money. A pair of Supreme Court justices were there today before the Appropriations Committee at the House, to ask for, among other things, about $640,000 in their budget for another officer to be posted in the High Court's front plaza. This comes on the heels of course of what we saw yesterday. That man dressed in dark clothing with two suitcases standing still, ultimately turned out to be nothing more than a harmless event. But nevertheless, caused the SWAT team to be deployed, as well as his bags to be exploded.
In addition, Justice Anthony Kennedy had a few words about the Chief Justice Rehnquist, who of course has been ailing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY, U.S. SUPREME KENNEDY: We bring you greetings from our colleagues and from the chief justice. I talked with the chief justice to advise him that we're coming over. He has gone through the budget with us, and is fully informed on the nature of our request. I can report to you that the chief justice is in good spirits and is participating actively in the work of the court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Justice Anthony Kennedy, just a few moments ago.
PHILLIPS: I believe we're going to start the second hour of LIVE FROM.
O'BRIEN: Let's do that, shall we? Take a break, and then come back.
PHILLIPS: Perfect. Stay with us.
O'BRIEN; Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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