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Pentagon Announces Base Closings, Sparks Outrage

Aired May 13, 2005 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: In the crosshairs of the Pentagon hit list, scores of military facilities targeted to close in hopes of saving billions of your money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is all part of the transformation of the total Army, active, Guard and Reserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Joe Johns on Capitol Hill. Where reactions are pouring in to the base closing recommendations. I'll have that coming up next.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Security in the skies: who's to blame for forcing a flight bound for Boston to be diverted?

O'BRIEN: The fast track to sainthood: what's behind the big push for Pope John Paul II?

From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien and I'm no saint.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips, and neither am I. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

Ellsworth, Pascagoula, Mt. McPherson, each name a chapter in U.S. military history. All of them, plus scores other installations, from Maine to Hawaii, on track to be history.

A long-awaited hit list from the Pentagon recommends shutting 33 major bases and 150 smaller sites, with an apparent net loss of 29,000 military and civilian jobs. It's the first such realignment in a decade. And as that term suggests, some bases are being eyed for expansion.

But it's far from a done deal. The list goes to a commission, then to the White House, then Congress. You get the idea.

We get the details now from CNN senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

Hi, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Kyra. The Pentagon had hinted that this year's base closer, this round would not be as big as some people expected. But when they took the wraps off it this morning at the Pentagon press briefing, it turned out to be the biggest recommended round of base closings ever. In fact, the number of bases to be re-aligned, smaller bases to be closed about is three times the combined total of all three rounds before this.

Let's take a look at the major recommendations. First of all, they're saying that they want to close 33 major bases. Twenty-nine bases they want to reduce in size, and in 49 other major bases they want to increase.

At the same time, as I said, minor bases that they want to close or re-align, 775. Again, about three times the amount from the previous four rounds of base closures altogether.

Now, they expect to save from this $5.5 billion a year. And that's really what this is all about.

Here's some of the major bases that are being hit around the country, just a quick look. Again altogether, 33, but if you look at the map of the United States, you can see that they -- particularly hard hit in New England, where the submarine base at New London. Also the Portsmouth naval shipyard there is going to be closed.

The naval station in Pascagoula, Ellsworth Air Force Base where the B-1 bombers are. Cannon Air Force Base, where they have F-16s. The planes will stay. They'll go to another base. But these bases are targeted for closing.

And if you want to get an idea of what's behind a lot of the consolidations -- that's what a lot of these things are -- take a look no farther than here in Washington, D.C., where the venerable Walter Reed Army Medical Center is going to go away, not entirely. It will actually be moved to the Bethesda Naval Hospital. It will keep the name, but they're going to consolidate it.

The Pentagon doesn't believe that the Army and the Navy necessarily need to operate separate hospitals in the same place. And that's what you're seeing going on around the country.

And as you mention, this goes now to the base closure commission, the nine-member independent board made up of people who have a lot of expertise in the military, a lot of retired military. They'll take testimony all through the summer, send their recommendations to President Bush, who can accept it up or down, in total. And he'll send it on to Capitol Hill, and if Congress doesn't take any action, it automatically goes into effect.

So Congress would have to vote, both houses, to reject it in order to stop it. And that's designed to insulate the whole process from politics but, as I'm sure you'll hear today, there's a lot of people crying foul already.

PHILLIPS: Sure. And you know so many details about the strategy here, Jamie. But we've received so many e-mails and viewers wanting to know, sort of asking the direct question, during a time of Operation Iraqi Freedom and other ongoing wars, why base closures? What's the strategy, militarily, for safety here at home, homeland security and, of course, fighting wars overseas?

MCINTYRE: Well, the very simple answer is they need the money. That savings that I talked about, the Pentagon needs that money for better weapons, better materials, to better use the forces.

Right now they're spending a lot of money on facilities that they don't really need. And they haven't been able to close them since 1995 because of the politics and the very sensitive nature of these kind of closings.

So -- and because in particular, in 1995, there were a lot of accusations of people playing politics with the list because of the presidential election. It made it almost impossible to get Congress to agree to another round.

And now that they've got this round of base closures, they really want to try to get as much savings as they can in order to just simply make better use of the taxpayers' money. But when it comes down to the base in your backyard, people don't want to see that go.

PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre, live from the Pentagon. Thanks

O'BRIEN: Well, if Social Security is the third rail of politics, touch it and die, pity the 109th Congress. Having tiptoed around Social Security for months, many members now face the powder keg of potential economic disaster in their home districts, which of course, does nothing to aid their own job security.

CNN's Joe Johns, spending an uneasy Friday the 13th on Capitol Hill -- Joe.

JOHNS: That's true, Miles. And you know, it's interesting: a number of members of Congress and senators found this so important that they decided to take this news back in their home states and districts, where they could be closer to their constituents.

Of course, nonetheless, all of this information went out today about 9:15 Eastern Time in very formal fashion, taken by members of the armed services, in uniforms, to the offices of each and every member of Congress.

The states hardest hit are already lashing out. One of the states, of course, is the state of Maine. Olympia Snowe, a senator from Maine today put out a statement, in part saying, "Today's decision by the department is nothing short of stunning, devastating, outrageous, a travesty, a strategic blunder of epic proportions. It is entirely beyond me as to the basis on which they made their recommendations, but it certainly wasn't logic or reason. Clearly," she says, "in arriving at these decisions, the Defense Department and the Navy must have been operating in a fog so thick they couldn't see the facts in front of them." There have been a lot of other statements. Interestingly enough, Senator Trent Lott, the chairman of the rules committee, today attacked the process. This is, of course, a process by which the Congress simply gives their powers over to a commission to decide what to do. And at the end of the day, the Congress can only vote the package down if enough members don't like it.

So as I said, this is the beginning of a process. It will take awhile, Miles, but a lot of people unhappy on Capitol Hill and out in the country today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Well, it's inevitable, Joe. And this is why they set up this whole BRAC procedure, to take it out of Congress' hands, because nothing would happen if Congress is left to do it. The truth of the matter is, there could be a lot of rhetoric, but the fact is, the train has left the station.

JOHNS: That's right. It's very hard to change all of this. You know, some people over in the House of Representatives has suggested they'd like to pass a bill through the Congress to delay all of this, because they don't think this is the time, with the United States in the midst of war, to start closing bases.

Nonetheless, that, of course, would be subject to a presidential veto. And the Defense Department is the one who started this all off with today's recommendations -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Joe Johns on Capitol Hill. Thank you very much.

We can't read them all. No time for that. But you can read the full list of recommended closures, expansions, reductions, re- alignments, where else but CNN.com.

PHILLIPS: No bull, Operation Matador is said to be running into an enemy shortage in Anbar province. U.S. Marines say almost a week into their all-out assault on a purported staging area from fighters from other countries, insurgents have hid, fled or both. Some, we're told, are hiding and shooting from the homes of innocent civilians. There's nothing like the heavy clashes with heavy insurgent casualties like reported in the first few days.

Marine deaths so far stand at five.

In Baghdad, meanwhile, a reprieve in the recent blitz of car bombs. That's not to be confused with peace and quiet. Gunmen killed a police officer today when they ambushed a pair of patrol cars.

Some 40 miles to the north, a bus bomb exploding near a military convoy killed two Iraqi soldiers.

On CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," a U.S. commander said despite being the target of most insurgent violence, Iraqi troops and cops are standing firm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COL. JOSEPH DISALVO, U.S. ARMY: I think what you're seeing is, the Iraqi security forces are now stepping up. They're showing their bravery. They're just as vulnerable as the coalition forces. And they're showing extreme courage and also good competency in preventing these attacks.

It's very difficult to prevent a suicide bomber. But the Iraqi security forces are not being intimidated by it. They're doing all they can. And the people also are not being intimidated by this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Intimidated or otherwise, Iraq's new prime minister today extended an official state of emergency for 30 days.

O'BRIEN: Putting Pope John Paul II on the fast track to sainthood. That's what's behind the push to bend the rules of the Catholic Church. The story a little later on LIVE FROM.

And also later, now that scores of bases are targeted to close, what can communities do to fight back?

Why gambling has become the new holy grail for many college kids. We talk about the pitfalls. Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Lots of chatter today about military base closings and the potential punch in a host town's pocketbook, but there is an upside, potentially. Can a military town actually benefit from a base folding its tents? Well, it depends. It -- let's ask the Dolans what they think about.

Daria and Ken, co-hosts of CNN's "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," good to see you guys.

DARIA DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": You, too, Miles.

KEN DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": I'll give you a military salute to kick off the segment.

O'BRIEN: Hooah, as they say.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Let's -- now I know -- Tony Principi, who's in the middle of all this now...

D. DOLAN: Heading up the commission.

O'BRIEN: ... is a pal of yours. Just got off the phone with him.

K. DOLAN: Yes, we just talked to him.

O'BRIEN: Give us some insights on what's going on, you think.

K. DOLAN: Yes. Tony Principi, Anthony Principi, Miles, as you just said, is a former head -- former secretary of veterans affairs in Washington under Bush and is now -- is now the chairman of the nine- member committee that will -- that will interpret and give their opinions on these base closings, which we'll talk about.

We just talked to Tony Principi about an hour ago. He had some good stuff to say.

D. DOLAN: And the fact of the matter is, they're not there to rubber stamp anything that the Pentagon has to say, Miles, but in fact will make their own recommendations, which may include axing different ones or not axing ones that are currently on the list.

They look at a couple of criteria. Two sets of them, in fact.

K. DOLAN: Four each.

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: Four each, yes.

D. DOLAN: One is the force structure plan, which basically does nothing if it's going to jeopardize national security. And so they have to make sure that all of these recommended base closings will not jeopardize national security.

The second part of it has to do with both the military readiness and the economics for the community.

K. DOLAN: Feel free to run them all down if you want.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, let me ask you this, though. What they have to do, though, in order to make any significant changes...

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... they need this supermajority of seven out of nine...

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... which makes it pretty difficult to do a lot of changes, doesn't it?

K. DOLAN: You know, Miles, it's going to be a political mess. And I'll tell you why. John Kerry of Massachusetts says, "How dare you close Portsmouth (ph) Air Force Base in New Hampshire?"

John Thune of South Dakota said, "How dare you close Ellsworth? It's a pillar of the community."

D. DOLAN: It is the largest employer in the state. K. DOLAN: Don't disagree with me. I'm just telling you...

D. DOLAN: I'm not.

O'BRIEN: Wait, wait, wait. It's funny you should mention Peas (ph). Peas (ph), of course, was one of the first bases to be closed back in '88.

K. DOLAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: It' is now a success story. It is now the poster child for what can happen good if the military leave.

K. DOLAN: If it's done right.

O'BRIEN: Fifty-one hundred people work there. It's a free trade zone, all that stuff. How -- of course, a lot of that has to do with location. You talk about that, you talk about the Precedio (ph). Some of these places that are great real estate.

I suspect a lot of places out in the middle of nowhere have a different story to tell.

K. DOLAN: I think that's right, Miles. But I think every -- every elected representative of any place of the 33 -- of the many, many closings, as you said earlier in the hour, affecting 30,000 people, maybe more, is the fact everybody has their story why their facility, upon which many communities are based economically. Yes, it's OK for New Hampshire but not Alabama. So we've got a lot of fights coming.

And one last thing, don't forget, I as a politician, Miles, my success may be measured, my success to my local constituency may be measured in my ability to keep my military installation. So get ready for all-out war. Excuse the pun.

O'BRIEN: All right. The thing to do is to propose a casino, right?

D. DOLAN: Well, you know, as a matter of fact, Miles, I made that joke a little bit earlier.

O'BRIEN: I stole your material. I'm sorry, Daria.

D. DOLAN: That's OK, Miles.

O'BRIEN: It was good stuff. It was low-hanging fruit, and I got there first. All right?

D. DOLAN: The fact of the matter is, you've got all this infrastructure that's going to be sitting vacant, you know. That could be a place to -- the states and cities are totally, totally becoming addicted to gambling.

K. DOLAN: For sure.

D. DOLAN: Which is why on tomorrow on -- tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow.

K. DOLAN: Day after today (ph). Yes.

D. DOLAN: Tomorrow. Thank you so much. On tomorrow's program, we're going to spend an hour taking a look at gambling, the good, the bad and the ugly. I am sad to report, Miles, that we spend more money now in this country on gambling than we do on the combination of movies, sports, music and amusement parks.

O'BRIEN: That is scary. What's good about gambling? What is good?

K. DOLAN: Well, Miles, it's like anything else. It's like having a nice drink and a glass of wine at dinner. It's like all the other sort of sin stuff, if used in moderation, it can be fun. Gambling can be relaxing.

O'BRIEN: We're past moderation. We're in big excess now, aren't we?

K. DOLAN: There's no doubt about it. I'm guessing maybe we'll have some casinos in the military bases that are closed down.

O'BRIEN: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, you see -- you go to places like Detroit, they need -- desperation move, they put the casinos in.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Can you name a place where putting casinos in actually helps the city?

K. DOLAN: It didn't help Atlantic City, my friend.

O'BRIEN: No.

D. DOLAN: It didn't help Atlantic City.

K. DOLAN: No!

D. DOLAN: But certainly, I think it did a world of good for the eastern part of Connecticut, where we have Mohegan Sun and other one.

K. DOLAN: Foxwood.

D. DOLAN: Foxwood, yes

K. DOLAN: We're not big gamblers, Miles.

D. DOLAN: I'm not good on days or names today, Miles.

K. DOLAN: All right.

O'BRIEN: Yes, but here's the thing. Here in Georgia -- I don't know if you get into lottery stuff. Do you talk about Lotteries much? The lottery... K. DOLAN: We're going to do it tomorrow.

O'BRIEN: The lottery funds a great program, the Hope Scholarship, which helps kids go to college for free. That's a good thing.

D. DOLAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I have a very good lottery piece that the audience I think will be interested in. There are 40 states currently that have lotteries. One of the states which does not is the state of Nevada. Go figure.

K. DOLAN: Hold on, Miles O'Brien, let me just say one thing to you.

O'BRIEN: Please do.

K. DOLAN: Well, all of a sudden we're talking about lotteries being so wonderful, and I guess they do -- they do some good in some states. But I will ask you this. I shall ask you this rhetorically, Miles O'Brien.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: And that is, if the lotteries are so helpful to education, then why has Congress allowed the $250 tax credit for teachers, who buy -- who buy crayons, and paper and rulers and pencils with their own money? Why do they still allow them a tax credit? They should allow it to them. Why do they have to? So much for your Lottery money.

O'BRIEN: Yes, well, a lot of this has to do with lawmakers not stepping up to the plate and funding these things properly. And that's really what we're all about here.

K. DOLAN: No doubt. No doubt.

D. DOLAN: And it also raises one other big issue, and the fact is, the more the states become addicted to gambling, the more we're going to have people who might have never ever had the opportunity to discover they have a problem with gambling to have that problem.

O'BRIEN: Yes. All right.

D. DOLAN: And that's a problem.

O'BRIEN: Crusaders.

K. DOLAN: We're on tomorrow!

O'BRIEN: They're crusaders. Of course, because we are here to drive the ratings juggernaut that is "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED"...

K. DOLAN: Straight up.

O'BRIEN: ... the FOX beating "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," tomorrow 10 a.m. Eastern. K. DOLAN: We love you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: It's outstanding television. And I'll tell you right now, it's not a gamble watching them.

K. DOLAN: Thanks, Dad.

D. DOLAN: Thank you.

K. DOLAN: Thank you, Dad.

O'BRIEN: See you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Later on LIVE FROM, opening the fast track for Pope John Paul II, why the Catholic Church is bending the rules on the road to sainthood.

It sounds like something out of a 007 movie, eye scans for airport security.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The technology of iris scanning is considered one of the most reliable biometric technologies.

PHILLIPS: Where the high-tech, high security scan is being tested.

And later on LIVE FROM, cashing in a lottery fortune, thanks to a fortune cookie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Dateline: Manchester, England, not Baghdad, not Beirut, not Bangladesh. But this is not a political protest. It is an expression of heartfelt horror that a bloody Yank has acquired a majority stake in Britain's crown jewel of what they call over there football and we call soccer.

The Manchester United team, the Yankees of the sport. The object of all this scorn, U.S. billionaire Malcolm Glazier, who also happens to own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. American football, they play.

And not unlike a pillaging pirate, Glazier has been storing up Man U. shares in his treasure chest. Now the coups de gras, a formal takeover bid. Because sobs, many fans are vowing to give up their season tickets, stop attending games. They're drowning their sorrows in Guinness as we speak.

One former team manager laments the team's heart and soul has been sold. Oh, the humanity.

What is no doubt a serious crisis for British fans, all in a day's persiflage for us. That's our word of the day from Wordsmith.org.

And now, Kyra, spell it and use it in a sentence, please.

PHILLIPS: Lisa Clark (ph) and the bell. We just can't get enough of that.

All right. Well, the game is on between Sony and Microsoft. The new Xbox has been unveiled. Kathleen Hays now live from the New York Stock Exchange with more.

Hi, Kathleen.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired May 13, 2005 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST: In the crosshairs of the Pentagon hit list, scores of military facilities targeted to close in hopes of saving billions of your money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is all part of the transformation of the total Army, active, Guard and Reserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Joe Johns on Capitol Hill. Where reactions are pouring in to the base closing recommendations. I'll have that coming up next.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Security in the skies: who's to blame for forcing a flight bound for Boston to be diverted?

O'BRIEN: The fast track to sainthood: what's behind the big push for Pope John Paul II?

From the CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien and I'm no saint.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips, and neither am I. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

Ellsworth, Pascagoula, Mt. McPherson, each name a chapter in U.S. military history. All of them, plus scores other installations, from Maine to Hawaii, on track to be history.

A long-awaited hit list from the Pentagon recommends shutting 33 major bases and 150 smaller sites, with an apparent net loss of 29,000 military and civilian jobs. It's the first such realignment in a decade. And as that term suggests, some bases are being eyed for expansion.

But it's far from a done deal. The list goes to a commission, then to the White House, then Congress. You get the idea.

We get the details now from CNN senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

Hi, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Kyra. The Pentagon had hinted that this year's base closer, this round would not be as big as some people expected. But when they took the wraps off it this morning at the Pentagon press briefing, it turned out to be the biggest recommended round of base closings ever. In fact, the number of bases to be re-aligned, smaller bases to be closed about is three times the combined total of all three rounds before this.

Let's take a look at the major recommendations. First of all, they're saying that they want to close 33 major bases. Twenty-nine bases they want to reduce in size, and in 49 other major bases they want to increase.

At the same time, as I said, minor bases that they want to close or re-align, 775. Again, about three times the amount from the previous four rounds of base closures altogether.

Now, they expect to save from this $5.5 billion a year. And that's really what this is all about.

Here's some of the major bases that are being hit around the country, just a quick look. Again altogether, 33, but if you look at the map of the United States, you can see that they -- particularly hard hit in New England, where the submarine base at New London. Also the Portsmouth naval shipyard there is going to be closed.

The naval station in Pascagoula, Ellsworth Air Force Base where the B-1 bombers are. Cannon Air Force Base, where they have F-16s. The planes will stay. They'll go to another base. But these bases are targeted for closing.

And if you want to get an idea of what's behind a lot of the consolidations -- that's what a lot of these things are -- take a look no farther than here in Washington, D.C., where the venerable Walter Reed Army Medical Center is going to go away, not entirely. It will actually be moved to the Bethesda Naval Hospital. It will keep the name, but they're going to consolidate it.

The Pentagon doesn't believe that the Army and the Navy necessarily need to operate separate hospitals in the same place. And that's what you're seeing going on around the country.

And as you mention, this goes now to the base closure commission, the nine-member independent board made up of people who have a lot of expertise in the military, a lot of retired military. They'll take testimony all through the summer, send their recommendations to President Bush, who can accept it up or down, in total. And he'll send it on to Capitol Hill, and if Congress doesn't take any action, it automatically goes into effect.

So Congress would have to vote, both houses, to reject it in order to stop it. And that's designed to insulate the whole process from politics but, as I'm sure you'll hear today, there's a lot of people crying foul already.

PHILLIPS: Sure. And you know so many details about the strategy here, Jamie. But we've received so many e-mails and viewers wanting to know, sort of asking the direct question, during a time of Operation Iraqi Freedom and other ongoing wars, why base closures? What's the strategy, militarily, for safety here at home, homeland security and, of course, fighting wars overseas?

MCINTYRE: Well, the very simple answer is they need the money. That savings that I talked about, the Pentagon needs that money for better weapons, better materials, to better use the forces.

Right now they're spending a lot of money on facilities that they don't really need. And they haven't been able to close them since 1995 because of the politics and the very sensitive nature of these kind of closings.

So -- and because in particular, in 1995, there were a lot of accusations of people playing politics with the list because of the presidential election. It made it almost impossible to get Congress to agree to another round.

And now that they've got this round of base closures, they really want to try to get as much savings as they can in order to just simply make better use of the taxpayers' money. But when it comes down to the base in your backyard, people don't want to see that go.

PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre, live from the Pentagon. Thanks

O'BRIEN: Well, if Social Security is the third rail of politics, touch it and die, pity the 109th Congress. Having tiptoed around Social Security for months, many members now face the powder keg of potential economic disaster in their home districts, which of course, does nothing to aid their own job security.

CNN's Joe Johns, spending an uneasy Friday the 13th on Capitol Hill -- Joe.

JOHNS: That's true, Miles. And you know, it's interesting: a number of members of Congress and senators found this so important that they decided to take this news back in their home states and districts, where they could be closer to their constituents.

Of course, nonetheless, all of this information went out today about 9:15 Eastern Time in very formal fashion, taken by members of the armed services, in uniforms, to the offices of each and every member of Congress.

The states hardest hit are already lashing out. One of the states, of course, is the state of Maine. Olympia Snowe, a senator from Maine today put out a statement, in part saying, "Today's decision by the department is nothing short of stunning, devastating, outrageous, a travesty, a strategic blunder of epic proportions. It is entirely beyond me as to the basis on which they made their recommendations, but it certainly wasn't logic or reason. Clearly," she says, "in arriving at these decisions, the Defense Department and the Navy must have been operating in a fog so thick they couldn't see the facts in front of them." There have been a lot of other statements. Interestingly enough, Senator Trent Lott, the chairman of the rules committee, today attacked the process. This is, of course, a process by which the Congress simply gives their powers over to a commission to decide what to do. And at the end of the day, the Congress can only vote the package down if enough members don't like it.

So as I said, this is the beginning of a process. It will take awhile, Miles, but a lot of people unhappy on Capitol Hill and out in the country today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Well, it's inevitable, Joe. And this is why they set up this whole BRAC procedure, to take it out of Congress' hands, because nothing would happen if Congress is left to do it. The truth of the matter is, there could be a lot of rhetoric, but the fact is, the train has left the station.

JOHNS: That's right. It's very hard to change all of this. You know, some people over in the House of Representatives has suggested they'd like to pass a bill through the Congress to delay all of this, because they don't think this is the time, with the United States in the midst of war, to start closing bases.

Nonetheless, that, of course, would be subject to a presidential veto. And the Defense Department is the one who started this all off with today's recommendations -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Joe Johns on Capitol Hill. Thank you very much.

We can't read them all. No time for that. But you can read the full list of recommended closures, expansions, reductions, re- alignments, where else but CNN.com.

PHILLIPS: No bull, Operation Matador is said to be running into an enemy shortage in Anbar province. U.S. Marines say almost a week into their all-out assault on a purported staging area from fighters from other countries, insurgents have hid, fled or both. Some, we're told, are hiding and shooting from the homes of innocent civilians. There's nothing like the heavy clashes with heavy insurgent casualties like reported in the first few days.

Marine deaths so far stand at five.

In Baghdad, meanwhile, a reprieve in the recent blitz of car bombs. That's not to be confused with peace and quiet. Gunmen killed a police officer today when they ambushed a pair of patrol cars.

Some 40 miles to the north, a bus bomb exploding near a military convoy killed two Iraqi soldiers.

On CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," a U.S. commander said despite being the target of most insurgent violence, Iraqi troops and cops are standing firm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COL. JOSEPH DISALVO, U.S. ARMY: I think what you're seeing is, the Iraqi security forces are now stepping up. They're showing their bravery. They're just as vulnerable as the coalition forces. And they're showing extreme courage and also good competency in preventing these attacks.

It's very difficult to prevent a suicide bomber. But the Iraqi security forces are not being intimidated by it. They're doing all they can. And the people also are not being intimidated by this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Intimidated or otherwise, Iraq's new prime minister today extended an official state of emergency for 30 days.

O'BRIEN: Putting Pope John Paul II on the fast track to sainthood. That's what's behind the push to bend the rules of the Catholic Church. The story a little later on LIVE FROM.

And also later, now that scores of bases are targeted to close, what can communities do to fight back?

Why gambling has become the new holy grail for many college kids. We talk about the pitfalls. Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Lots of chatter today about military base closings and the potential punch in a host town's pocketbook, but there is an upside, potentially. Can a military town actually benefit from a base folding its tents? Well, it depends. It -- let's ask the Dolans what they think about.

Daria and Ken, co-hosts of CNN's "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," good to see you guys.

DARIA DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": You, too, Miles.

KEN DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": I'll give you a military salute to kick off the segment.

O'BRIEN: Hooah, as they say.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Let's -- now I know -- Tony Principi, who's in the middle of all this now...

D. DOLAN: Heading up the commission.

O'BRIEN: ... is a pal of yours. Just got off the phone with him.

K. DOLAN: Yes, we just talked to him.

O'BRIEN: Give us some insights on what's going on, you think.

K. DOLAN: Yes. Tony Principi, Anthony Principi, Miles, as you just said, is a former head -- former secretary of veterans affairs in Washington under Bush and is now -- is now the chairman of the nine- member committee that will -- that will interpret and give their opinions on these base closings, which we'll talk about.

We just talked to Tony Principi about an hour ago. He had some good stuff to say.

D. DOLAN: And the fact of the matter is, they're not there to rubber stamp anything that the Pentagon has to say, Miles, but in fact will make their own recommendations, which may include axing different ones or not axing ones that are currently on the list.

They look at a couple of criteria. Two sets of them, in fact.

K. DOLAN: Four each.

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: Four each, yes.

D. DOLAN: One is the force structure plan, which basically does nothing if it's going to jeopardize national security. And so they have to make sure that all of these recommended base closings will not jeopardize national security.

The second part of it has to do with both the military readiness and the economics for the community.

K. DOLAN: Feel free to run them all down if you want.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, let me ask you this, though. What they have to do, though, in order to make any significant changes...

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... they need this supermajority of seven out of nine...

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... which makes it pretty difficult to do a lot of changes, doesn't it?

K. DOLAN: You know, Miles, it's going to be a political mess. And I'll tell you why. John Kerry of Massachusetts says, "How dare you close Portsmouth (ph) Air Force Base in New Hampshire?"

John Thune of South Dakota said, "How dare you close Ellsworth? It's a pillar of the community."

D. DOLAN: It is the largest employer in the state. K. DOLAN: Don't disagree with me. I'm just telling you...

D. DOLAN: I'm not.

O'BRIEN: Wait, wait, wait. It's funny you should mention Peas (ph). Peas (ph), of course, was one of the first bases to be closed back in '88.

K. DOLAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: It' is now a success story. It is now the poster child for what can happen good if the military leave.

K. DOLAN: If it's done right.

O'BRIEN: Fifty-one hundred people work there. It's a free trade zone, all that stuff. How -- of course, a lot of that has to do with location. You talk about that, you talk about the Precedio (ph). Some of these places that are great real estate.

I suspect a lot of places out in the middle of nowhere have a different story to tell.

K. DOLAN: I think that's right, Miles. But I think every -- every elected representative of any place of the 33 -- of the many, many closings, as you said earlier in the hour, affecting 30,000 people, maybe more, is the fact everybody has their story why their facility, upon which many communities are based economically. Yes, it's OK for New Hampshire but not Alabama. So we've got a lot of fights coming.

And one last thing, don't forget, I as a politician, Miles, my success may be measured, my success to my local constituency may be measured in my ability to keep my military installation. So get ready for all-out war. Excuse the pun.

O'BRIEN: All right. The thing to do is to propose a casino, right?

D. DOLAN: Well, you know, as a matter of fact, Miles, I made that joke a little bit earlier.

O'BRIEN: I stole your material. I'm sorry, Daria.

D. DOLAN: That's OK, Miles.

O'BRIEN: It was good stuff. It was low-hanging fruit, and I got there first. All right?

D. DOLAN: The fact of the matter is, you've got all this infrastructure that's going to be sitting vacant, you know. That could be a place to -- the states and cities are totally, totally becoming addicted to gambling.

K. DOLAN: For sure.

D. DOLAN: Which is why on tomorrow on -- tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow.

K. DOLAN: Day after today (ph). Yes.

D. DOLAN: Tomorrow. Thank you so much. On tomorrow's program, we're going to spend an hour taking a look at gambling, the good, the bad and the ugly. I am sad to report, Miles, that we spend more money now in this country on gambling than we do on the combination of movies, sports, music and amusement parks.

O'BRIEN: That is scary. What's good about gambling? What is good?

K. DOLAN: Well, Miles, it's like anything else. It's like having a nice drink and a glass of wine at dinner. It's like all the other sort of sin stuff, if used in moderation, it can be fun. Gambling can be relaxing.

O'BRIEN: We're past moderation. We're in big excess now, aren't we?

K. DOLAN: There's no doubt about it. I'm guessing maybe we'll have some casinos in the military bases that are closed down.

O'BRIEN: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, you see -- you go to places like Detroit, they need -- desperation move, they put the casinos in.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Can you name a place where putting casinos in actually helps the city?

K. DOLAN: It didn't help Atlantic City, my friend.

O'BRIEN: No.

D. DOLAN: It didn't help Atlantic City.

K. DOLAN: No!

D. DOLAN: But certainly, I think it did a world of good for the eastern part of Connecticut, where we have Mohegan Sun and other one.

K. DOLAN: Foxwood.

D. DOLAN: Foxwood, yes

K. DOLAN: We're not big gamblers, Miles.

D. DOLAN: I'm not good on days or names today, Miles.

K. DOLAN: All right.

O'BRIEN: Yes, but here's the thing. Here in Georgia -- I don't know if you get into lottery stuff. Do you talk about Lotteries much? The lottery... K. DOLAN: We're going to do it tomorrow.

O'BRIEN: The lottery funds a great program, the Hope Scholarship, which helps kids go to college for free. That's a good thing.

D. DOLAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I have a very good lottery piece that the audience I think will be interested in. There are 40 states currently that have lotteries. One of the states which does not is the state of Nevada. Go figure.

K. DOLAN: Hold on, Miles O'Brien, let me just say one thing to you.

O'BRIEN: Please do.

K. DOLAN: Well, all of a sudden we're talking about lotteries being so wonderful, and I guess they do -- they do some good in some states. But I will ask you this. I shall ask you this rhetorically, Miles O'Brien.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: And that is, if the lotteries are so helpful to education, then why has Congress allowed the $250 tax credit for teachers, who buy -- who buy crayons, and paper and rulers and pencils with their own money? Why do they still allow them a tax credit? They should allow it to them. Why do they have to? So much for your Lottery money.

O'BRIEN: Yes, well, a lot of this has to do with lawmakers not stepping up to the plate and funding these things properly. And that's really what we're all about here.

K. DOLAN: No doubt. No doubt.

D. DOLAN: And it also raises one other big issue, and the fact is, the more the states become addicted to gambling, the more we're going to have people who might have never ever had the opportunity to discover they have a problem with gambling to have that problem.

O'BRIEN: Yes. All right.

D. DOLAN: And that's a problem.

O'BRIEN: Crusaders.

K. DOLAN: We're on tomorrow!

O'BRIEN: They're crusaders. Of course, because we are here to drive the ratings juggernaut that is "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED"...

K. DOLAN: Straight up.

O'BRIEN: ... the FOX beating "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," tomorrow 10 a.m. Eastern. K. DOLAN: We love you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: It's outstanding television. And I'll tell you right now, it's not a gamble watching them.

K. DOLAN: Thanks, Dad.

D. DOLAN: Thank you.

K. DOLAN: Thank you, Dad.

O'BRIEN: See you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Later on LIVE FROM, opening the fast track for Pope John Paul II, why the Catholic Church is bending the rules on the road to sainthood.

It sounds like something out of a 007 movie, eye scans for airport security.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The technology of iris scanning is considered one of the most reliable biometric technologies.

PHILLIPS: Where the high-tech, high security scan is being tested.

And later on LIVE FROM, cashing in a lottery fortune, thanks to a fortune cookie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Dateline: Manchester, England, not Baghdad, not Beirut, not Bangladesh. But this is not a political protest. It is an expression of heartfelt horror that a bloody Yank has acquired a majority stake in Britain's crown jewel of what they call over there football and we call soccer.

The Manchester United team, the Yankees of the sport. The object of all this scorn, U.S. billionaire Malcolm Glazier, who also happens to own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. American football, they play.

And not unlike a pillaging pirate, Glazier has been storing up Man U. shares in his treasure chest. Now the coups de gras, a formal takeover bid. Because sobs, many fans are vowing to give up their season tickets, stop attending games. They're drowning their sorrows in Guinness as we speak.

One former team manager laments the team's heart and soul has been sold. Oh, the humanity.

What is no doubt a serious crisis for British fans, all in a day's persiflage for us. That's our word of the day from Wordsmith.org.

And now, Kyra, spell it and use it in a sentence, please.

PHILLIPS: Lisa Clark (ph) and the bell. We just can't get enough of that.

All right. Well, the game is on between Sony and Microsoft. The new Xbox has been unveiled. Kathleen Hays now live from the New York Stock Exchange with more.

Hi, Kathleen.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

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