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Idaho Murder Mystery; Judge Lefkow Urges Security Reforms

Aired May 18, 2005 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going now -- Coeur D'Alene, Idaho is our location. We have a live news conference from the captain of deputies there, on that story we told you about at the top of the broadcast, two missing children in the wake of a triple homicide. Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI CO., IDAHO SHERIFF'S DEPT.: ... as much as we can. A little bit of information. We've got some new stuff coming out. Investigators reluctantly have agreed to give you a little bit of information about the inside of the crime scene. We know this is a triple homicide, because all three victims were bound. That's new information, I know, for you guys. That's important to us as far as processing this crime scene. We're not going to release how those people were bound, what they were bound with or anything like that. We're holding that close to the vest.

Our tip line's have been doing really well. They've had over 150 tips in the first 12 hours that they were in operation. But some of those tips have been some real weird people, and so we're keeping some of that information close to the vest so we can sort out what's legitimate and what's not.

Additionally, the autopsies are going on right now. We don't have information back from the autopsies. They're in the middle of them. We can't contact them when they're in the autopsy lab. We have to wait until their between autopsies to get that information back. Once we get some information back, we hope to be able to provide you a little bit of information from that.

I can tell you, though, that Spokane City and county have really helped us out over there. They've brought in their forensic experts to assist us at the autopsy, to attempt to bring fingerprints off the bodies, things like that. That's an expertise we don't have, and we're certainly appreciative of their involvement as well.

The state police here in Idaho have really stepped up to the PHILLIPS: ate on DNA processing. We know we've got a lot of blood. We've got three victims. We don't know whose blood we're dealing with. They're going to process DNA. They've set up a system to expedite delivery of that blood to the lab. The lab's in Boise. They've also set up a system that if their lab can't handle the volume of samples we send them, that they will outsource that for us.

Understand, though, at the very best we can have a three-day, 72 hour turn around on DNA. It's not television. We can't do it in an hour program. So it's got to be a minimum of 72 hours to get DNA information back, bare minimum.

We've got some information on some possible rewards. We've had people calling in, with the potential of...

O'BRIEN: All right, we apologize. Obviously, we had some problems with that signal. First the video locked up, the audio continued, and now apparently we've lost both. We're going to try to get the thing patched together. But you were listening to the Sheriff's Captain Wolfinger as he is giving us an update on what is now a triple murder, followed by an Amber Alert. Shasta Groene and Dylan Groene missing, eight and nine years old. There you see the evidence of that Amber Alert in that part of Idaho.

We are going to try to get that technical problem worked out for you, and we'll try to get the captain back on the air shortly.

Back with more in a moment.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Later on LIVE FROM...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got to work together. We've got to keep telling until they stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Her 5-year-old daughter Samantha, kidnapped and killed. Erin Runnion talks about a federal push and her own efforts to stop pedophiles.

Next on LIVE FROM...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Your drink desire you not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Yoda sells soda. Darth Vader's hocking Slurpees. Are fans ready to drink what they're pouring? The marketing mania of "Star Wars."

Tomorrow on LIVE FROM, follow Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin, the second man to set foot on the moon, reveals some unexpected details about his trip to space in a new book for children. ^

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, Capitol Hill today, they're talking security in courtrooms and the safety of those who preside over them. Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, a federal judge who was the victim of a violent crime. You'll remember Judge Joan Lefkow's mother and husband were shot to death in the judge's Chicago home in February. Well, Congress has a newly passed budget to fund the U.S. Marshals service. Judge Lefkow had something to say about how that money should be spent.

Steve Orlofsky joins me now live from Philadelphia. He's a former federal judge, and, as such, worked very closely with U.S. Marshals. Judge, good to see you.

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: Good afternoon, thanks for having me.

PHILLIPS: Well, there's a number of points that were made in Lefkow's testimony today. I know that there were a couple of them that really hit home with you. One of them was the issue of home security systems, number one. For when a judge does leave the courtroom, just protection a judge need to take. She didn't have a home security system, right?

ORLOFSKY: That's -- apparently, that's correct. And apparently, had one been in place, it might have prevented this tragedy.

PHILLIPS: What about posting personal information on the Internet? For example, that's how I found you. When I ran judges working in Iraq, helping Iraq re-build, your name popped up and I was able to get your home number.

ORLOFSKY: Well, that is also a problem. There -- while certainly there's a first amendment interest in having information posted on the Internet, there's no legitimate interest in having the personal home address information or telephone numbers or Social Security numbers of judges on the Internet. There's really no need for the public to have that. And Congress should consider legislation to prohibit the posting of such information for both state and federal judges.

PHILLIPS: Is there anything as a judge that you have to file to maybe ask for added protection, with regard to personal information?

ORLOFSKY: Well, there are systems -- you can make requests of various compilers of databases to delete you -- your name and information from their database, but that is a cumbersome process and that's why I think Congress needs to consider legislation to simplify that process.

PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about the funding for U.S. Marshals now. Already, we see how U.S. Marshals are overextended with regard to the airline industry. What do you think? Is that the answer? More marshals in the courtrooms, taking judges home, watching over their homes, if they're on a high-profile case?

ORLOFSKY: There's no question that the Marshal Service is underfunded, understaffed and underesearched. We need to have deputy United States marshals who are trained, present at every court proceeding, so they can be sensitive to issues of security, which judges may not be aware of or, frankly, would ignore because they're not trained to see them. The Marshal Service needs a lot more people, needs a lot more technology, and needs a lot more resources to provide adequate protection to federal judges.

PHILLIPS: So judge, what happens right now when a threat level assessment is made? Let's say you were presiding over the 9/11 hijackers. Do you get more protection than, say, somebody that's dealing with a less violent criminal?

ORLOFSKY: There's no question that if you are presiding at a high-level trial, high-level public trial that -- such as a 9/11 defendant, you would receive around the clock protection. However, the threat to federal judges comes from for mundane sources, such as disgruntled pro se litigants who were involved in the murder of Judge Lefkow's family. There is a far more serious threat from litigants like that, who are all over the country, to federal judges, than the high-profile cases. And that's where we really need to beef up security for federal judges.

PHILLIPS: Have you ever been targeted?

ORLOFSKY: I have.

PHILLIPS: What happened?

ORLOFSKY: Well, I presented -- I received some letters from a disgruntled litigant. I turned them over to the Marshal Service. The Marshal Service went out, interviewed the individual. It turned out that he was stalking me and they were able to put it to rest and to protect me. But sometimes you never even know that you're a target. For example, Judge Lefkow and her family had no idea that this particular disgruntled litigant had targeted her.

PHILLIPS: What about judges with guns?

ORLOFSKY: Well, judges with guns may be more of a risk to themselves than judges without guns. Judges are generally not trained in the use of firearms. They generally do not have experience in using them. I think judges would be better served if we increased security and provided more resources to the Marshals Service to provide adequately trained personnel, rather than give judges firearms to protect themselves.

PHILLIPS: Judge Stephen Orlofsky. We'll follow what Congress does with this new budget and see how much money the U.S. Marshals Service does receive and what goes toward protecting judges. Thank you for your time.

ORLOFSKY: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Check out these live pictures coming in to us right now. These come courtesy of our affiliate WTHR, hovering over Indianapolis. Could be the White River. Anyway, a river in Indianapolis, presumably it would be the White. But what you're seeing here, far right, is a fishing boat that got stuck at the cusp of those rapids there. They look like pretty serious rapids, as you can see at the top of your screen there. And the two other vessels, one pointing downstream, one pointing upstream, are part of the rescue effort right now.

I think what you're seeing right now is, through the use of some ropes and both the inflatable Zodiac there and the other vessel, they have gotten the fisherman, I believe who is sitting in the bow of that boat, toward the front, off his fishing boat, which was obviously stuck there, and sort of on its way downstream. Something that, presumably, that fisherman would not want to try in that particular boat.

This is, in fact, the White River in Indianapolis. And best we can say right now is these rescuers, both of them wearing helmets and with the orange life vests, towards the rear, stern of the boat, have successfully gotten that fisherman aboard the inflatable Zodiac safely. And now let's hope the engine works. Oh, they've cut loose the line -- boy, there was a lot of tension on that line, wasn't it? That gives you a sense of the kind of -- the force of the river there. They've let those lines go and with some luck, they should be able to make their way to safety here.

Just as we say, we're in Indianapolis here, live pictures, happening right now. A solitary fisherman there in that green boat, to the right of your screen, got himself hung up on the cusp of some fairly serious rapids there. Now safely inside that inflatable. There you see off to the left, a little bit of that other boat, which is involved in this rescue, which was where a lot of those lines were tethered to.

We'll watch as they try to get themselves off the rocks here and make their way to safety. But it appears the immediate danger is over, in as much as the fisherman is now aboard -- safely aboard that rescue vehicle. Now we're going to see how well that outboard is performing. Looks like they're doing a little bit of work on it.

All right. We'll -- we'll keep you posted on it. Like I say, I think the -- the more serious component of this must be over. The fisherman is in safe hands and we'll keep you posted on when they get off the rocks there. White River in Indianapolis.

Well, the force is back, in case you've been under a rock for a week or so. No, we're not talking about juice for those light sabers, we're talking about the marketing force behind the "Star Wars" franchise. Hang on to your wallets, folks. This is a $20 billion franchise. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: All right, live pictures once again, thanks to our affiliate WTHR in Indianapolis's dateline (ph). This is the White River, and a rather turbulent portion of the White River, I might add. Three boats in your picture. On your left is the one to keep your eye on. That's the Zodiac, which has the fisherman -- Well, thank you very much WTHR. That did have the fisherman. There are two rescuers in that particular inflatable zodiac-style boat. They have successfully gotten that fisherman to terra firma.

Let's look at some tape, which came back just a little while ago. As you can see, when last we left them, they were having a hard time kind of getting off the rocks there, getting the engine started. Look like they gave up on the engine and just decided to get pulled in by the line. Smart idea. Obviously the rapids are flowing there pretty swiftly this spring, as they're wont to do this time of year. And the fisherman who was on that boat -- let's go back to that live picture, and we'll tell you where he was, right in the center of your screen there, that green, sort of camouflaged fishing boat was the boat where he was stranded.

That other vessel pointed upstream there is a rescuer's boat, and they're probably waiting for a pullback to shore as well.

So whatever caused it to happen, we can't tell you just yet. But clearly -- might have been paying a little more attention to wetting a line his keeping boat away from the shoals there on the white river. All's well that ends well in Indianapolis.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All right, coming up in our second hour of LIVE FROM...

O'BRIEN: Females on the front lines. A proposal today on Capitol Hill could change the role of women in war. We're live from the Pentagon with the reaction.

PHILLIPS: We're also going to talk about your finely aged wine. We bet you've never had any quite like this. We're drinking it up, next hour.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 18, 2005 - 13:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going now -- Coeur D'Alene, Idaho is our location. We have a live news conference from the captain of deputies there, on that story we told you about at the top of the broadcast, two missing children in the wake of a triple homicide. Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI CO., IDAHO SHERIFF'S DEPT.: ... as much as we can. A little bit of information. We've got some new stuff coming out. Investigators reluctantly have agreed to give you a little bit of information about the inside of the crime scene. We know this is a triple homicide, because all three victims were bound. That's new information, I know, for you guys. That's important to us as far as processing this crime scene. We're not going to release how those people were bound, what they were bound with or anything like that. We're holding that close to the vest.

Our tip line's have been doing really well. They've had over 150 tips in the first 12 hours that they were in operation. But some of those tips have been some real weird people, and so we're keeping some of that information close to the vest so we can sort out what's legitimate and what's not.

Additionally, the autopsies are going on right now. We don't have information back from the autopsies. They're in the middle of them. We can't contact them when they're in the autopsy lab. We have to wait until their between autopsies to get that information back. Once we get some information back, we hope to be able to provide you a little bit of information from that.

I can tell you, though, that Spokane City and county have really helped us out over there. They've brought in their forensic experts to assist us at the autopsy, to attempt to bring fingerprints off the bodies, things like that. That's an expertise we don't have, and we're certainly appreciative of their involvement as well.

The state police here in Idaho have really stepped up to the PHILLIPS: ate on DNA processing. We know we've got a lot of blood. We've got three victims. We don't know whose blood we're dealing with. They're going to process DNA. They've set up a system to expedite delivery of that blood to the lab. The lab's in Boise. They've also set up a system that if their lab can't handle the volume of samples we send them, that they will outsource that for us.

Understand, though, at the very best we can have a three-day, 72 hour turn around on DNA. It's not television. We can't do it in an hour program. So it's got to be a minimum of 72 hours to get DNA information back, bare minimum.

We've got some information on some possible rewards. We've had people calling in, with the potential of...

O'BRIEN: All right, we apologize. Obviously, we had some problems with that signal. First the video locked up, the audio continued, and now apparently we've lost both. We're going to try to get the thing patched together. But you were listening to the Sheriff's Captain Wolfinger as he is giving us an update on what is now a triple murder, followed by an Amber Alert. Shasta Groene and Dylan Groene missing, eight and nine years old. There you see the evidence of that Amber Alert in that part of Idaho.

We are going to try to get that technical problem worked out for you, and we'll try to get the captain back on the air shortly.

Back with more in a moment.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Later on LIVE FROM...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got to work together. We've got to keep telling until they stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Her 5-year-old daughter Samantha, kidnapped and killed. Erin Runnion talks about a federal push and her own efforts to stop pedophiles.

Next on LIVE FROM...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Your drink desire you not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Yoda sells soda. Darth Vader's hocking Slurpees. Are fans ready to drink what they're pouring? The marketing mania of "Star Wars."

Tomorrow on LIVE FROM, follow Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin, the second man to set foot on the moon, reveals some unexpected details about his trip to space in a new book for children. ^

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, Capitol Hill today, they're talking security in courtrooms and the safety of those who preside over them. Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, a federal judge who was the victim of a violent crime. You'll remember Judge Joan Lefkow's mother and husband were shot to death in the judge's Chicago home in February. Well, Congress has a newly passed budget to fund the U.S. Marshals service. Judge Lefkow had something to say about how that money should be spent.

Steve Orlofsky joins me now live from Philadelphia. He's a former federal judge, and, as such, worked very closely with U.S. Marshals. Judge, good to see you.

STEPHEN ORLOFSKY, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: Good afternoon, thanks for having me.

PHILLIPS: Well, there's a number of points that were made in Lefkow's testimony today. I know that there were a couple of them that really hit home with you. One of them was the issue of home security systems, number one. For when a judge does leave the courtroom, just protection a judge need to take. She didn't have a home security system, right?

ORLOFSKY: That's -- apparently, that's correct. And apparently, had one been in place, it might have prevented this tragedy.

PHILLIPS: What about posting personal information on the Internet? For example, that's how I found you. When I ran judges working in Iraq, helping Iraq re-build, your name popped up and I was able to get your home number.

ORLOFSKY: Well, that is also a problem. There -- while certainly there's a first amendment interest in having information posted on the Internet, there's no legitimate interest in having the personal home address information or telephone numbers or Social Security numbers of judges on the Internet. There's really no need for the public to have that. And Congress should consider legislation to prohibit the posting of such information for both state and federal judges.

PHILLIPS: Is there anything as a judge that you have to file to maybe ask for added protection, with regard to personal information?

ORLOFSKY: Well, there are systems -- you can make requests of various compilers of databases to delete you -- your name and information from their database, but that is a cumbersome process and that's why I think Congress needs to consider legislation to simplify that process.

PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about the funding for U.S. Marshals now. Already, we see how U.S. Marshals are overextended with regard to the airline industry. What do you think? Is that the answer? More marshals in the courtrooms, taking judges home, watching over their homes, if they're on a high-profile case?

ORLOFSKY: There's no question that the Marshal Service is underfunded, understaffed and underesearched. We need to have deputy United States marshals who are trained, present at every court proceeding, so they can be sensitive to issues of security, which judges may not be aware of or, frankly, would ignore because they're not trained to see them. The Marshal Service needs a lot more people, needs a lot more technology, and needs a lot more resources to provide adequate protection to federal judges.

PHILLIPS: So judge, what happens right now when a threat level assessment is made? Let's say you were presiding over the 9/11 hijackers. Do you get more protection than, say, somebody that's dealing with a less violent criminal?

ORLOFSKY: There's no question that if you are presiding at a high-level trial, high-level public trial that -- such as a 9/11 defendant, you would receive around the clock protection. However, the threat to federal judges comes from for mundane sources, such as disgruntled pro se litigants who were involved in the murder of Judge Lefkow's family. There is a far more serious threat from litigants like that, who are all over the country, to federal judges, than the high-profile cases. And that's where we really need to beef up security for federal judges.

PHILLIPS: Have you ever been targeted?

ORLOFSKY: I have.

PHILLIPS: What happened?

ORLOFSKY: Well, I presented -- I received some letters from a disgruntled litigant. I turned them over to the Marshal Service. The Marshal Service went out, interviewed the individual. It turned out that he was stalking me and they were able to put it to rest and to protect me. But sometimes you never even know that you're a target. For example, Judge Lefkow and her family had no idea that this particular disgruntled litigant had targeted her.

PHILLIPS: What about judges with guns?

ORLOFSKY: Well, judges with guns may be more of a risk to themselves than judges without guns. Judges are generally not trained in the use of firearms. They generally do not have experience in using them. I think judges would be better served if we increased security and provided more resources to the Marshals Service to provide adequately trained personnel, rather than give judges firearms to protect themselves.

PHILLIPS: Judge Stephen Orlofsky. We'll follow what Congress does with this new budget and see how much money the U.S. Marshals Service does receive and what goes toward protecting judges. Thank you for your time.

ORLOFSKY: Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Check out these live pictures coming in to us right now. These come courtesy of our affiliate WTHR, hovering over Indianapolis. Could be the White River. Anyway, a river in Indianapolis, presumably it would be the White. But what you're seeing here, far right, is a fishing boat that got stuck at the cusp of those rapids there. They look like pretty serious rapids, as you can see at the top of your screen there. And the two other vessels, one pointing downstream, one pointing upstream, are part of the rescue effort right now.

I think what you're seeing right now is, through the use of some ropes and both the inflatable Zodiac there and the other vessel, they have gotten the fisherman, I believe who is sitting in the bow of that boat, toward the front, off his fishing boat, which was obviously stuck there, and sort of on its way downstream. Something that, presumably, that fisherman would not want to try in that particular boat.

This is, in fact, the White River in Indianapolis. And best we can say right now is these rescuers, both of them wearing helmets and with the orange life vests, towards the rear, stern of the boat, have successfully gotten that fisherman aboard the inflatable Zodiac safely. And now let's hope the engine works. Oh, they've cut loose the line -- boy, there was a lot of tension on that line, wasn't it? That gives you a sense of the kind of -- the force of the river there. They've let those lines go and with some luck, they should be able to make their way to safety here.

Just as we say, we're in Indianapolis here, live pictures, happening right now. A solitary fisherman there in that green boat, to the right of your screen, got himself hung up on the cusp of some fairly serious rapids there. Now safely inside that inflatable. There you see off to the left, a little bit of that other boat, which is involved in this rescue, which was where a lot of those lines were tethered to.

We'll watch as they try to get themselves off the rocks here and make their way to safety. But it appears the immediate danger is over, in as much as the fisherman is now aboard -- safely aboard that rescue vehicle. Now we're going to see how well that outboard is performing. Looks like they're doing a little bit of work on it.

All right. We'll -- we'll keep you posted on it. Like I say, I think the -- the more serious component of this must be over. The fisherman is in safe hands and we'll keep you posted on when they get off the rocks there. White River in Indianapolis.

Well, the force is back, in case you've been under a rock for a week or so. No, we're not talking about juice for those light sabers, we're talking about the marketing force behind the "Star Wars" franchise. Hang on to your wallets, folks. This is a $20 billion franchise. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: All right, live pictures once again, thanks to our affiliate WTHR in Indianapolis's dateline (ph). This is the White River, and a rather turbulent portion of the White River, I might add. Three boats in your picture. On your left is the one to keep your eye on. That's the Zodiac, which has the fisherman -- Well, thank you very much WTHR. That did have the fisherman. There are two rescuers in that particular inflatable zodiac-style boat. They have successfully gotten that fisherman to terra firma.

Let's look at some tape, which came back just a little while ago. As you can see, when last we left them, they were having a hard time kind of getting off the rocks there, getting the engine started. Look like they gave up on the engine and just decided to get pulled in by the line. Smart idea. Obviously the rapids are flowing there pretty swiftly this spring, as they're wont to do this time of year. And the fisherman who was on that boat -- let's go back to that live picture, and we'll tell you where he was, right in the center of your screen there, that green, sort of camouflaged fishing boat was the boat where he was stranded.

That other vessel pointed upstream there is a rescuer's boat, and they're probably waiting for a pullback to shore as well.

So whatever caused it to happen, we can't tell you just yet. But clearly -- might have been paying a little more attention to wetting a line his keeping boat away from the shoals there on the white river. All's well that ends well in Indianapolis.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All right, coming up in our second hour of LIVE FROM...

O'BRIEN: Females on the front lines. A proposal today on Capitol Hill could change the role of women in war. We're live from the Pentagon with the reaction.

PHILLIPS: We're also going to talk about your finely aged wine. We bet you've never had any quite like this. We're drinking it up, next hour.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com