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Stemming a Revolt Over Cells

Aired May 24, 2005 - 13:59 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush moments away from remarks on embryonic stem cell research. We're going to bring you the president's comments on the controversial science live.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A top terrorist reportedly wounded. Al Qaeda Web messages indicate Iraq's most notorious insurgent is hurt. We have the latest.

PHILLIPS: A CIA agent given the ultimate order: Bring back the head of Osama bin Laden. This former agent gives us his inside story.

O'BRIEN: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

O'BRIEN: Stemming a revolt over cells, President Bush's aim today as the House of Representatives stands ready to overturn his ban on federal funding for research on embryonic stem cells. The measure may well bring the first veto of the 43rd presidency and possibly, though it's a long shot, the first veto override.

In the meantime, there's the bully pulpit. And CNN's Elaine Quijano is at the White House now to set the stage for us -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Miles. Good afternoon.

President Bush said last week that he would veto any bill that promotes science which in his words destroys life in order to save life. And that is exactly what we expect President Bush to reiterate just a short time from now when he makes his remarks on bioethics in the East Room of the White House.

Now, the president returned to Washington just a short time ago after a Social Security event in New York. He is meeting with families who have adopted children as embryos, and they, in fact, will be at that East Room event, an attempt by the White House to put a human face on this issue.

Their presence, of course, underscoring the emotional nature of this debate. The president and other opponents of embryonic stem cell research say that because embryos are destroyed in the process of removing those stem cells, that raises serious ethical questions. That is why they oppose one of the bills the House is now considering which would ease restrictions on federal funding for such research. The White House points out that in August of 2001 the president allowed the use of federal funds for work involving existing stem cell lines, but scientists have said many of those are contaminated. Now, supporters argue that such research could eventually lead to cures for debilitating diseases like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes. The House, however, looking ready to defy the president's veto threat, and a look at some recent polling on this issue helps explain why.

The latest CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll taking a look at the issue of embryonic stem cell research finds that a majority of Americans, 53 percent, would prefer fewer restrictions on government funding of stem cell research. Nevertheless, President Bush is remaining firm on this issue. We expect to hear that once again today.

And Miles, also look for the president to talk about other forms of stem cell research which he believes do not raise ethical questions. In fact, the House also looking to consider a bill right now that would involve umbilical stem cord -- stem cell research, umbilical cord research. The president very much a back of that, but the president remaining firm despite the public support out there for the embryonic stem cell research -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Elaine, how much concern is there at the White House that this bill might pass with enough votes to override that veto?

QUIJANO: Well, the White House at this point does not necessarily feel that the votes are there to override a veto. However, this does, of course, highlight the schism, if you will, that has developed over this issue with moderate Republicans, people from the president's own party remaining quite committed to this issue. And, in fact, of course, there have been some high-profile supporters. Nancy Reagan, of course, among them, whose husband, Ronald Reagan, suffered from Alzheimer's.

So the White House understands that it is an uphill battle, but the president feels quite strongly about this issue, and we expect to hear that today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Elaine Quijano at the White House. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Both sides in the stem cell dilemma say it's a life- and-death issue and not one that splits along party lines. Our coverage continues now with CNN's Kimberly Osias.

Hi, Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra.

Well, of course Republicans are split on this issue. It is very emotional and resonates on a personal level for many. We are talking about two bills and two vastly different approaches.

One proposal sponsored by Republican Mike Castle and Democrat Diana DeGette would use donated frozen embryos for research. Mothers like Beth Westbrook, who spoke out earlier at a news conference today, lost her daughter Katie to bone cancer four years ago. She said it offers the most promise in the fight against degenerative diseases.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH WESTBROOK, STEM CELL RESEARCH ADVOCATE: No parent, no parent should ever have to look at their child and tell them there are no more options, there's no more hope. No more -- no parent should ever have to tell their child that we are not doing everything possible to support research for a cure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Opponents say the bill is immoral and unethical. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay says there are other less divisive alternatives, like another bill in the House today. It proposes using blood from umbilical cords for stem cell research.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: Progress, even progress that pushes the envelope of medical knowledge, needn't be controversial. It needn't divide us or force people of goodwill to devalue human life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Now, some scientists say that the umbilical blood option has promise in research. And, of course, this is definitely an issue we have seen on the House floor, that there has been a postponement of the non-controversial legislation, that first option that we discussed that was referring to the bill over cord blood.

Now, the other option, the DeGette-Castle bill, that is a bit more controversial. There are about three hours of debate. You can see on the floor right now discussion continuing about that. That is a bill that uses -- or proposes using human embryos -- Miles, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Kimberly Osias there live from Washington, following that for us. Thank you so much.

And back to the emotional issue of stem cell research. Well, we're waiting for President Bush to make some remarks on the stem cell debate. But first, here's some background. Why is the research so important and why is it stirring such passions?

We're monitoring the live pictures, waiting for the president to step up to the podium. Meanwhile, here's CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're perhaps the most controversial frontier in modern medicine. Many scientists believe these tiny cells hold the potential to treat diseases such as diabetes, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and even spinal cord injuries. Celebrity sufferers have beaten the drum for exploiting stem cells. MICHAEL J. FOX, ACTOR: I'm one of a million involuntary experts on Parkinson's Disease in the United States, battling its destructive nature as we wait for a cure.

CHRISTOPHER REEVE, ACTOR: It's a miracle. It's something that has unlimited potential for curing people.

COHEN: The search for a cure became the life work of actor Christopher Reeve before he died in 2004. Embryonic stem cells are unspecified or blank cells. Scientists hope they can manipulate these cells into becoming any type of cell.

For example, with some spinal cord injuries, broken vertebrae cut the bundle of nerves behind them. Many researchers believe stem cells could be grown into tissue to close the gap in the damaged nerves.

DR. BARTH GREEN, NEUROSURGEON: Stem cells not only can replace damaged cells, but they can help repair.

COHEN: There's been some progress with animals. These rats were given a severe spinal cord injury and then injected with stem cells. Six weeks later, their hind legs were functioning again.

DR. JOHN GEARHART, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: We're well on our way in some of these areas, but we still have work to do.

COHEN: But there's a bitter ethical dispute about the use of embryonic stem cells, which many believe are the most promising for research. The embryos usually come from fertility clinics. They belong to parents who've decided not to use them to start a pregnancy. Using embryos for scientific research angers some groups.

JUDIE BROWN, AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE: Human embryos, who are people, are being reduced to property and products, and they are literally being marketed to the scientific community so that their spare parts, so-called, can be used in research.

COHEN: Others say why not use the embryos for research that may be life-saving? The other option? Adult stem cells. They don't come from embryos. Instead, they're derived from a variety of sources such as bone marrow...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. We're going to interrupt Elizabeth Cohen and go right to the president of the United States, live in the East Room, discussing this very subject.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rather than discard these embryos created during in vitro fertilization or turn them over for research that destroys them, these families have chosen a life-affirming alternative. Twenty-one children here today found a chance for life with loving parents.

I believe America...

(APPLAUSE)

I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science. And I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages.

(APPLAUSE)

In the complex debate over embryonic stem cell research, we must remember that real human lives are involved, both the lives of those with diseases that might find cures from this research and the lives of the embryos that will be destroyed in the process. The children here today are reminders that every human life is a precious gift of matchless value.

(APPLAUSE)

I appreciate Mike Leavitt, Department of Health and Human Services, for being here. He's the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services.

I picked a really good man to take on this assignment. He's doing a fine job.

(APPLAUSE)

I want to thank the executive director of Nightlight Christian Adoptions, Ron Stoddart, for joining us today.

Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

I want to thank Lori Maze, the director of Snowflakes Frozen Embryo Adoption Program.

Welcome, Lori. Thank you for coming.

(APPLAUSE)

And thank you all for being here.

The rapid advance of science presents us with the hope of eventual cures for terrible diseases and with profound ethical and moral dilemmas. The decisions we make today will have far-reaching consequences. So we must aggressively move forward with medical research while also maintaining the highest ethical standards. Research on stem cells derived from human embryos may offer great promise, but the way those cells are derived today destroys the embryo.

I share the hope of millions of Americans who desperately want to find treatments and cures for terrible diseases such as juvenile diabetes and Parkinson's disease. That is why my administration completed the doubling of the NIH budget to $29 billion a year to encourage research. I also made available for the first time federal funds for embryonic stem cell research in order to explore the potential of these cells. But I also recognize the grave moral issues at stake.

So in August 2001, I set forward a policy to develop stem cell research in a responsible way by funding research on stem cell lines developed only from embryos that had already been destroyed. This policy set a clear standard: we should not use public money to support the further destruction of human life.

(APPLAUSE)

Under this policy we have supported a great deal of ethical research. About 600 shipments of eligible stem cell lines are already being used by researchers across the country, and over 3,000 more shipments are still available.

We've increased funding for all forms of stem cell research by more than 80 percent since I took office. A tremendous amount of both public and private research is under way in America on embryonic, as well as adult stem cells and stem cells from umbilical cord blood.

Today, the House of Representatives is considering a bill that violates the clear standard I set four years ago. This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life. Crossing this line would be a great mistake.

Even now researchers are exploring alternative sources of stem cells such as adult bone marrow and umbilical cord blood, as well as different ethical ways of getting the same kind of cells now taken from embryos without violating human life or dignity. With the right policies and the right techniques, we can pursue scientific progress while still fulfilling our moral duties.

I want to thank Nightline Christian Adoptions for their good work. Nightline's embryo adoption program has now matched over 200 biological parents with about 140 adoptive families, resulting in the birth of 81 children so far, with more on the way.

(APPLAUSE)

The children here today remind us that there is no such thing as a spare embryo. Every embryo is unique and genetically complete, like every other human being, and each of us started out our life this way.

These lives are not raw material to be exploited, but gifts. And I commend each of the families here today for accepting the gift of these children and offering them the gift of your love.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you for coming today. By the way, we're having a little birthday gathering just in a second for Tanner (ph) and Noelle (ph). You all are invited to partake in a little birthday cake.

In the meantime, may god bless you and your families. And may god continue to bless our country.

Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: The president of the United States in the East Room, flanked by parents who have adopted essentially embryos over the years, making his case once again for not providing federal funding for further research on embryonic stem cell lines that are not part of that compromise agreement from four years ago.

Let's bring in CNN's Elizabeth Cohen, who is our medical correspondent, here.

Let's remind people about what was said back in August four years ago, 2001. When the president said that existing so-called lines -- in other words, the embryos had already been destroyed -- those lines can be used for research. But from what I'm reading, it's been kind of the end of the line for many of those lines, right?

COHEN: That's right, Miles. What the president said on August 9, 2001, is that he said to scientists, look, if you want federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, you can only use this set of 78 stem cell lines where the embryos were also destroyed. The deed was already done.

But scientists said then, and they're even stronger about it now, they said, look, those -- those stem cell lines are not good the way that they were grown, the way they were maintained. They're tainted, they're not useful for scientific work. And what we need to do, these scientists say, is to create new stem cell lines, which would mean destroying new embryos.

And that's what the president's against. That's what he was against in 2001. And that's what he reiterated just now.

He said you can't use federal funding if you want to destroy any more embryos. And the scientists are saying, well, that's the only way we're going to get good embryonic stem cell lines. And that's basically the debate that's happening.

And the children that you saw at the press conference just now, those are children who existed as embryos in fertility clinics. And the parents said, look, we're done with our family, we had leftover embryos from the procedure, we don't want them. And so other families adopted those embryos, those embryos were put into another woman's uterus, and you see the children that they are today.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about how the recent developments in South Korea change this debate at all, or could impact the debate.

What researchers in South Korea have discovered is that they can actually create clones of these embryonic stem cells. Does that in any way lessen the moral problem that a lot of people on the religious right have with all of this? COHEN: Actually, no. It made it even more complicated, Miles, because then they brought in cloning.

What the researchers in Korea did is they said, you know what, forget it, we're not going to use fertility clinics for a variety of reasons. We're not going to bother with those. What we're going to do is create a cloned embryo.

So Miles, let's say, for example, god forbid, that you had a spinal cord injury. What they -- what they are looking at doing in South Korea is they would take some DNA from your skin, they would then take an egg from any woman, it could be any woman. They would take an egg out of her, take the genetic material out of that egg, put your skin DNA into that embryo.

They give it some chemicals, and voila, you have this stem cell line that is an exact DNA replication, an exact clone of Miles O'Brien. But you wouldn't use it to make a baby. You would use it to make a treatment that would be designed for you.

So you're destroying an embryo, number one. It's sort of this weirdly-created embryo. But you're destroying an embryo, and you're cloning. So it's got sort of that double whammy for folks who have that stance that this really is a child.

O'BRIEN: Aside from South Korea, a lot of research in this area continues all around the world. It's very likely there will be some breakthroughs, and those breakthroughs are going to come outside the United States.

What happens then, when there are promising cures for Parkinson's or spinal cord injuries? They come from offshore, those moral dilemmas will come up again when it comes time to try to start providing those cures to people who need them.

COHEN: Yes. Years from now, let's say the South Koreans use the technology that they have now, they develop it into a treatment for Parkinson's, and let's say it works. Well, what happens?

Do -- in this country, do folks like President Bush say, no, sorry, they destroyed embryos, and they cloned, they did two bad things? Do they say to Parkinson's sufferers in this country you can't get that treatment, we're not going to allow it to be imported, or we're going to, I don't know, arrest you if you go and use it? It's going to create a whole new set of problems if that's the way that things develop.

O'BRIEN: Well, you can only imagine how the debate would be different when you're not talking about an abstract potential possible cure many decades down the road and something that is very real and very here and now and could provide a much better life for people who are suffering.

COHEN: Yes. I think that's a very interesting point.

For example, the whole -- the whole business of reproductive medicine, IVF and artificial insemination and all of that, there were a lot of people who had a lot of problems with IVF. There were demonstrations. People were really up in arms about this.

But once they saw that it was helping infertile couples have babies, well, you don't see people demonstrating against infertility treatments anymore. But, you know, years ago you actually did.

It was -- ethically it was considered a very controversial thing, because you were somehow meddling in god's design for how to conceive a child. But now you don't hear anybody criticizing it.

And certainly some experts I've talked to have said you, know what, the day that embryonic stem cells are used to, let's say, cure diabetes, if that were ever to happen, if embryonic stem cells can cure diabetes, no one's going to have a problem. All of a sudden, all of these people who are protesting it are going to sort of stop protesting.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. We will be covering it when it happens. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, the threatened veto could be the first of President Bush's presidency. Let's go back to the White House. Elaine Quijano there on the front lawn.

Give us more of the political fallout. We talked about the moral implications. Of course a lot of political implications.

QUIJANO: Well, certainly. Of course that's the case, Kyra.

As that debate is going on Capitol Hill, within the House of Representatives on this, President Bush saying quite clearly, once again reiterating his position, his opposition to embryonic stem cell research. And this time raising the stakes, if you will, bringing into the argument, or at least helping him to create a more compelling argument, children, specifically children who were adopted by their families as embryos.

Now, the president saying during his remarks just minutes ago that these children are a reminder, he said, that there is no such thing as a spare embryo. The president earlier saying that the children are a reminder that every human life, in his words, is a precious gift of matchless value.

Now, of course, this is a -- as he pointed out, a very complicated ethical issue. The president has the backing, the very strong backing, though, of social conservatives. The president himself feels quite strongly about this. And even as it looks as though the House does in fact have the votes to pass this legislation, and Congress as a whole may pass this legislation, the president remaining firm today, unyielding really in his position, his belief that there are other avenues which can be explored, the president said, talking about adult stem cell research, also research involving umbilical cord stem cells.

So the president offering those as alternatives, but aiming his message squarely at lawmakers debating this very issue right now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Elaine Quijano live from the White House. Thank you so much.

We'll have more, of course, later in the hour.

Well, straight ahead, he's the most wanted man in Iraq, and a message says that he's wounded. Details on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi just ahead on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, many Americans are keeping an eye on the debate over stem cell research. Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport making sense of new poll numbers for us in Princeton, New Jersey.

Hi, Frank.

FRANK NEWPORT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GALLUP: Hello, Kyra.

Indeed, the question that we asked over the weekend had to do with political implications, just what we were hearing the president talk about, government funding for stem cell research. We gave Americans four choices.

Bush's alternative would be this third from the bottom, keep the current limits in place. And only 24 percent choose that. Another 19 percent of very conservative Americans say, "We want no funding at all." But that leaves the top two rows here, Kyra, which is over half, 53 percent of Americans, who say ease the restrictions, what the House is considering now, or remove all restrictions altogether. So

I have to say, based on this, the will of the people would be -- at least a slight majority -- ease up on restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.

PHILLIPS: When polling what folks are saying about stem cell research being morally acceptable, what do they say to you?

NEWPORT: Well, this is a trend that we have followed now for four consecutive Mays in our Gallup Values and Beliefs poll that we do every May. The question is just what you said, is stem cell research, using human embryos -- we use that phrase -- acceptable or not morally?

The numbers have actually gone up. We're now at 60 percent of Americans who say yes. That's about a two-to-one ratio. So clearly Americans think it is appropriate.

Political divisions, I want you to look at this carefully, because look on the left-hand side. These are Republicans on that moral acceptability question. And although they're lower than Independents and Democrats than saying it's acceptable morally, they're just split in half. And that's why we're seeing this division within the Republican Party. Rank and file Republicans are split.

One group, however, that strongly believes it is not morally acceptable, these are evangelical Christians. We broke them out.

About 22 percent of Americans meet our qualifications for being an evangelical Christian. See the big slice of the pie there. Six out of 10 say it's not morally acceptable. So this is the core constituency opposed to what the House is considering right now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Frank Newport, thank you so much. Gauging America there for us.

Well, this is one of those issues that's an emotional and ideological powder keg, and it touches on the subject of when you believe that life begins. Well, people on both sides are passionate in their arguments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM SCHMIDT, QUADRIPLEGIC: I just feel like every day I sit here in this chair is just another day I face a ton of challenges where I feel like there could be some parallel research being done at the same time. And I have to agree with several of the scientists here in the United States right now that say the real long-term and the big- picture promise will be with the -- with the embryonic stem cell type.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PHIL GINGREY (R), GEORGIA: Unfortunately, raw material and embryonic stem cell research are those embryos that are cloned is human life. And I agree with Sam Schmidt. I know of the work in Portugal with spinal cord injury patients. And I would say to him, that work, that technique, that miracle of science is available to him today, and why wait three or four or five years down the road for embryonic, which is unproven?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, you can keep up with the debate, of course, online at cnn.com/politics. And there you can read about two competing bills, and you can see an interactive animated guide to stem cell research.

O'BRIEN: All right. Live pictures to -- coming in to us now. Southern California is the location.

These pictures coming to us courtesy of our affiliate, KABC. And you're looking at some rescuers on the rocks beside a rapidly moving river in Irwindale, California, at the Santa Fe Dam recreational area. And as soon as the chopper pilot pulls back a little bit, on the right-hand part of your screen you'll see the object of their attention right now, which is a woman.

There you go. Mid-lower right portion of your screen as we zoom in. Stuck on the rocks there with her pooch. We presume it's her pooch. Maybe she went to rescue the dog. We don't know the full story just yet, but they're attempting to figure out how to safely get pooch and woman safely to shore there despite some rushing water.

Of course all that snow and rain over this past winter in California has now turned into a significant runoff. And there you see the results of that in those rapids there in Irwindale, California.

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Aired May 24, 2005 - 13:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush moments away from remarks on embryonic stem cell research. We're going to bring you the president's comments on the controversial science live.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A top terrorist reportedly wounded. Al Qaeda Web messages indicate Iraq's most notorious insurgent is hurt. We have the latest.

PHILLIPS: A CIA agent given the ultimate order: Bring back the head of Osama bin Laden. This former agent gives us his inside story.

O'BRIEN: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Miles O'Brien.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

O'BRIEN: Stemming a revolt over cells, President Bush's aim today as the House of Representatives stands ready to overturn his ban on federal funding for research on embryonic stem cells. The measure may well bring the first veto of the 43rd presidency and possibly, though it's a long shot, the first veto override.

In the meantime, there's the bully pulpit. And CNN's Elaine Quijano is at the White House now to set the stage for us -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Miles. Good afternoon.

President Bush said last week that he would veto any bill that promotes science which in his words destroys life in order to save life. And that is exactly what we expect President Bush to reiterate just a short time from now when he makes his remarks on bioethics in the East Room of the White House.

Now, the president returned to Washington just a short time ago after a Social Security event in New York. He is meeting with families who have adopted children as embryos, and they, in fact, will be at that East Room event, an attempt by the White House to put a human face on this issue.

Their presence, of course, underscoring the emotional nature of this debate. The president and other opponents of embryonic stem cell research say that because embryos are destroyed in the process of removing those stem cells, that raises serious ethical questions. That is why they oppose one of the bills the House is now considering which would ease restrictions on federal funding for such research. The White House points out that in August of 2001 the president allowed the use of federal funds for work involving existing stem cell lines, but scientists have said many of those are contaminated. Now, supporters argue that such research could eventually lead to cures for debilitating diseases like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes. The House, however, looking ready to defy the president's veto threat, and a look at some recent polling on this issue helps explain why.

The latest CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll taking a look at the issue of embryonic stem cell research finds that a majority of Americans, 53 percent, would prefer fewer restrictions on government funding of stem cell research. Nevertheless, President Bush is remaining firm on this issue. We expect to hear that once again today.

And Miles, also look for the president to talk about other forms of stem cell research which he believes do not raise ethical questions. In fact, the House also looking to consider a bill right now that would involve umbilical stem cord -- stem cell research, umbilical cord research. The president very much a back of that, but the president remaining firm despite the public support out there for the embryonic stem cell research -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Elaine, how much concern is there at the White House that this bill might pass with enough votes to override that veto?

QUIJANO: Well, the White House at this point does not necessarily feel that the votes are there to override a veto. However, this does, of course, highlight the schism, if you will, that has developed over this issue with moderate Republicans, people from the president's own party remaining quite committed to this issue. And, in fact, of course, there have been some high-profile supporters. Nancy Reagan, of course, among them, whose husband, Ronald Reagan, suffered from Alzheimer's.

So the White House understands that it is an uphill battle, but the president feels quite strongly about this issue, and we expect to hear that today -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Elaine Quijano at the White House. Thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Both sides in the stem cell dilemma say it's a life- and-death issue and not one that splits along party lines. Our coverage continues now with CNN's Kimberly Osias.

Hi, Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra.

Well, of course Republicans are split on this issue. It is very emotional and resonates on a personal level for many. We are talking about two bills and two vastly different approaches.

One proposal sponsored by Republican Mike Castle and Democrat Diana DeGette would use donated frozen embryos for research. Mothers like Beth Westbrook, who spoke out earlier at a news conference today, lost her daughter Katie to bone cancer four years ago. She said it offers the most promise in the fight against degenerative diseases.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH WESTBROOK, STEM CELL RESEARCH ADVOCATE: No parent, no parent should ever have to look at their child and tell them there are no more options, there's no more hope. No more -- no parent should ever have to tell their child that we are not doing everything possible to support research for a cure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Opponents say the bill is immoral and unethical. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay says there are other less divisive alternatives, like another bill in the House today. It proposes using blood from umbilical cords for stem cell research.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: Progress, even progress that pushes the envelope of medical knowledge, needn't be controversial. It needn't divide us or force people of goodwill to devalue human life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSIAS: Now, some scientists say that the umbilical blood option has promise in research. And, of course, this is definitely an issue we have seen on the House floor, that there has been a postponement of the non-controversial legislation, that first option that we discussed that was referring to the bill over cord blood.

Now, the other option, the DeGette-Castle bill, that is a bit more controversial. There are about three hours of debate. You can see on the floor right now discussion continuing about that. That is a bill that uses -- or proposes using human embryos -- Miles, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Kimberly Osias there live from Washington, following that for us. Thank you so much.

And back to the emotional issue of stem cell research. Well, we're waiting for President Bush to make some remarks on the stem cell debate. But first, here's some background. Why is the research so important and why is it stirring such passions?

We're monitoring the live pictures, waiting for the president to step up to the podium. Meanwhile, here's CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're perhaps the most controversial frontier in modern medicine. Many scientists believe these tiny cells hold the potential to treat diseases such as diabetes, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and even spinal cord injuries. Celebrity sufferers have beaten the drum for exploiting stem cells. MICHAEL J. FOX, ACTOR: I'm one of a million involuntary experts on Parkinson's Disease in the United States, battling its destructive nature as we wait for a cure.

CHRISTOPHER REEVE, ACTOR: It's a miracle. It's something that has unlimited potential for curing people.

COHEN: The search for a cure became the life work of actor Christopher Reeve before he died in 2004. Embryonic stem cells are unspecified or blank cells. Scientists hope they can manipulate these cells into becoming any type of cell.

For example, with some spinal cord injuries, broken vertebrae cut the bundle of nerves behind them. Many researchers believe stem cells could be grown into tissue to close the gap in the damaged nerves.

DR. BARTH GREEN, NEUROSURGEON: Stem cells not only can replace damaged cells, but they can help repair.

COHEN: There's been some progress with animals. These rats were given a severe spinal cord injury and then injected with stem cells. Six weeks later, their hind legs were functioning again.

DR. JOHN GEARHART, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: We're well on our way in some of these areas, but we still have work to do.

COHEN: But there's a bitter ethical dispute about the use of embryonic stem cells, which many believe are the most promising for research. The embryos usually come from fertility clinics. They belong to parents who've decided not to use them to start a pregnancy. Using embryos for scientific research angers some groups.

JUDIE BROWN, AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE: Human embryos, who are people, are being reduced to property and products, and they are literally being marketed to the scientific community so that their spare parts, so-called, can be used in research.

COHEN: Others say why not use the embryos for research that may be life-saving? The other option? Adult stem cells. They don't come from embryos. Instead, they're derived from a variety of sources such as bone marrow...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All right. We're going to interrupt Elizabeth Cohen and go right to the president of the United States, live in the East Room, discussing this very subject.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rather than discard these embryos created during in vitro fertilization or turn them over for research that destroys them, these families have chosen a life-affirming alternative. Twenty-one children here today found a chance for life with loving parents.

I believe America...

(APPLAUSE)

I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science. And I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages.

(APPLAUSE)

In the complex debate over embryonic stem cell research, we must remember that real human lives are involved, both the lives of those with diseases that might find cures from this research and the lives of the embryos that will be destroyed in the process. The children here today are reminders that every human life is a precious gift of matchless value.

(APPLAUSE)

I appreciate Mike Leavitt, Department of Health and Human Services, for being here. He's the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services.

I picked a really good man to take on this assignment. He's doing a fine job.

(APPLAUSE)

I want to thank the executive director of Nightlight Christian Adoptions, Ron Stoddart, for joining us today.

Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

I want to thank Lori Maze, the director of Snowflakes Frozen Embryo Adoption Program.

Welcome, Lori. Thank you for coming.

(APPLAUSE)

And thank you all for being here.

The rapid advance of science presents us with the hope of eventual cures for terrible diseases and with profound ethical and moral dilemmas. The decisions we make today will have far-reaching consequences. So we must aggressively move forward with medical research while also maintaining the highest ethical standards. Research on stem cells derived from human embryos may offer great promise, but the way those cells are derived today destroys the embryo.

I share the hope of millions of Americans who desperately want to find treatments and cures for terrible diseases such as juvenile diabetes and Parkinson's disease. That is why my administration completed the doubling of the NIH budget to $29 billion a year to encourage research. I also made available for the first time federal funds for embryonic stem cell research in order to explore the potential of these cells. But I also recognize the grave moral issues at stake.

So in August 2001, I set forward a policy to develop stem cell research in a responsible way by funding research on stem cell lines developed only from embryos that had already been destroyed. This policy set a clear standard: we should not use public money to support the further destruction of human life.

(APPLAUSE)

Under this policy we have supported a great deal of ethical research. About 600 shipments of eligible stem cell lines are already being used by researchers across the country, and over 3,000 more shipments are still available.

We've increased funding for all forms of stem cell research by more than 80 percent since I took office. A tremendous amount of both public and private research is under way in America on embryonic, as well as adult stem cells and stem cells from umbilical cord blood.

Today, the House of Representatives is considering a bill that violates the clear standard I set four years ago. This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life. Crossing this line would be a great mistake.

Even now researchers are exploring alternative sources of stem cells such as adult bone marrow and umbilical cord blood, as well as different ethical ways of getting the same kind of cells now taken from embryos without violating human life or dignity. With the right policies and the right techniques, we can pursue scientific progress while still fulfilling our moral duties.

I want to thank Nightline Christian Adoptions for their good work. Nightline's embryo adoption program has now matched over 200 biological parents with about 140 adoptive families, resulting in the birth of 81 children so far, with more on the way.

(APPLAUSE)

The children here today remind us that there is no such thing as a spare embryo. Every embryo is unique and genetically complete, like every other human being, and each of us started out our life this way.

These lives are not raw material to be exploited, but gifts. And I commend each of the families here today for accepting the gift of these children and offering them the gift of your love.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you for coming today. By the way, we're having a little birthday gathering just in a second for Tanner (ph) and Noelle (ph). You all are invited to partake in a little birthday cake.

In the meantime, may god bless you and your families. And may god continue to bless our country.

Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BRIEN: The president of the United States in the East Room, flanked by parents who have adopted essentially embryos over the years, making his case once again for not providing federal funding for further research on embryonic stem cell lines that are not part of that compromise agreement from four years ago.

Let's bring in CNN's Elizabeth Cohen, who is our medical correspondent, here.

Let's remind people about what was said back in August four years ago, 2001. When the president said that existing so-called lines -- in other words, the embryos had already been destroyed -- those lines can be used for research. But from what I'm reading, it's been kind of the end of the line for many of those lines, right?

COHEN: That's right, Miles. What the president said on August 9, 2001, is that he said to scientists, look, if you want federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, you can only use this set of 78 stem cell lines where the embryos were also destroyed. The deed was already done.

But scientists said then, and they're even stronger about it now, they said, look, those -- those stem cell lines are not good the way that they were grown, the way they were maintained. They're tainted, they're not useful for scientific work. And what we need to do, these scientists say, is to create new stem cell lines, which would mean destroying new embryos.

And that's what the president's against. That's what he was against in 2001. And that's what he reiterated just now.

He said you can't use federal funding if you want to destroy any more embryos. And the scientists are saying, well, that's the only way we're going to get good embryonic stem cell lines. And that's basically the debate that's happening.

And the children that you saw at the press conference just now, those are children who existed as embryos in fertility clinics. And the parents said, look, we're done with our family, we had leftover embryos from the procedure, we don't want them. And so other families adopted those embryos, those embryos were put into another woman's uterus, and you see the children that they are today.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about how the recent developments in South Korea change this debate at all, or could impact the debate.

What researchers in South Korea have discovered is that they can actually create clones of these embryonic stem cells. Does that in any way lessen the moral problem that a lot of people on the religious right have with all of this? COHEN: Actually, no. It made it even more complicated, Miles, because then they brought in cloning.

What the researchers in Korea did is they said, you know what, forget it, we're not going to use fertility clinics for a variety of reasons. We're not going to bother with those. What we're going to do is create a cloned embryo.

So Miles, let's say, for example, god forbid, that you had a spinal cord injury. What they -- what they are looking at doing in South Korea is they would take some DNA from your skin, they would then take an egg from any woman, it could be any woman. They would take an egg out of her, take the genetic material out of that egg, put your skin DNA into that embryo.

They give it some chemicals, and voila, you have this stem cell line that is an exact DNA replication, an exact clone of Miles O'Brien. But you wouldn't use it to make a baby. You would use it to make a treatment that would be designed for you.

So you're destroying an embryo, number one. It's sort of this weirdly-created embryo. But you're destroying an embryo, and you're cloning. So it's got sort of that double whammy for folks who have that stance that this really is a child.

O'BRIEN: Aside from South Korea, a lot of research in this area continues all around the world. It's very likely there will be some breakthroughs, and those breakthroughs are going to come outside the United States.

What happens then, when there are promising cures for Parkinson's or spinal cord injuries? They come from offshore, those moral dilemmas will come up again when it comes time to try to start providing those cures to people who need them.

COHEN: Yes. Years from now, let's say the South Koreans use the technology that they have now, they develop it into a treatment for Parkinson's, and let's say it works. Well, what happens?

Do -- in this country, do folks like President Bush say, no, sorry, they destroyed embryos, and they cloned, they did two bad things? Do they say to Parkinson's sufferers in this country you can't get that treatment, we're not going to allow it to be imported, or we're going to, I don't know, arrest you if you go and use it? It's going to create a whole new set of problems if that's the way that things develop.

O'BRIEN: Well, you can only imagine how the debate would be different when you're not talking about an abstract potential possible cure many decades down the road and something that is very real and very here and now and could provide a much better life for people who are suffering.

COHEN: Yes. I think that's a very interesting point.

For example, the whole -- the whole business of reproductive medicine, IVF and artificial insemination and all of that, there were a lot of people who had a lot of problems with IVF. There were demonstrations. People were really up in arms about this.

But once they saw that it was helping infertile couples have babies, well, you don't see people demonstrating against infertility treatments anymore. But, you know, years ago you actually did.

It was -- ethically it was considered a very controversial thing, because you were somehow meddling in god's design for how to conceive a child. But now you don't hear anybody criticizing it.

And certainly some experts I've talked to have said you, know what, the day that embryonic stem cells are used to, let's say, cure diabetes, if that were ever to happen, if embryonic stem cells can cure diabetes, no one's going to have a problem. All of a sudden, all of these people who are protesting it are going to sort of stop protesting.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. We will be covering it when it happens. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, the threatened veto could be the first of President Bush's presidency. Let's go back to the White House. Elaine Quijano there on the front lawn.

Give us more of the political fallout. We talked about the moral implications. Of course a lot of political implications.

QUIJANO: Well, certainly. Of course that's the case, Kyra.

As that debate is going on Capitol Hill, within the House of Representatives on this, President Bush saying quite clearly, once again reiterating his position, his opposition to embryonic stem cell research. And this time raising the stakes, if you will, bringing into the argument, or at least helping him to create a more compelling argument, children, specifically children who were adopted by their families as embryos.

Now, the president saying during his remarks just minutes ago that these children are a reminder, he said, that there is no such thing as a spare embryo. The president earlier saying that the children are a reminder that every human life, in his words, is a precious gift of matchless value.

Now, of course, this is a -- as he pointed out, a very complicated ethical issue. The president has the backing, the very strong backing, though, of social conservatives. The president himself feels quite strongly about this. And even as it looks as though the House does in fact have the votes to pass this legislation, and Congress as a whole may pass this legislation, the president remaining firm today, unyielding really in his position, his belief that there are other avenues which can be explored, the president said, talking about adult stem cell research, also research involving umbilical cord stem cells.

So the president offering those as alternatives, but aiming his message squarely at lawmakers debating this very issue right now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Elaine Quijano live from the White House. Thank you so much.

We'll have more, of course, later in the hour.

Well, straight ahead, he's the most wanted man in Iraq, and a message says that he's wounded. Details on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi just ahead on LIVE FROM.

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PHILLIPS: Well, many Americans are keeping an eye on the debate over stem cell research. Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport making sense of new poll numbers for us in Princeton, New Jersey.

Hi, Frank.

FRANK NEWPORT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GALLUP: Hello, Kyra.

Indeed, the question that we asked over the weekend had to do with political implications, just what we were hearing the president talk about, government funding for stem cell research. We gave Americans four choices.

Bush's alternative would be this third from the bottom, keep the current limits in place. And only 24 percent choose that. Another 19 percent of very conservative Americans say, "We want no funding at all." But that leaves the top two rows here, Kyra, which is over half, 53 percent of Americans, who say ease the restrictions, what the House is considering now, or remove all restrictions altogether. So

I have to say, based on this, the will of the people would be -- at least a slight majority -- ease up on restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.

PHILLIPS: When polling what folks are saying about stem cell research being morally acceptable, what do they say to you?

NEWPORT: Well, this is a trend that we have followed now for four consecutive Mays in our Gallup Values and Beliefs poll that we do every May. The question is just what you said, is stem cell research, using human embryos -- we use that phrase -- acceptable or not morally?

The numbers have actually gone up. We're now at 60 percent of Americans who say yes. That's about a two-to-one ratio. So clearly Americans think it is appropriate.

Political divisions, I want you to look at this carefully, because look on the left-hand side. These are Republicans on that moral acceptability question. And although they're lower than Independents and Democrats than saying it's acceptable morally, they're just split in half. And that's why we're seeing this division within the Republican Party. Rank and file Republicans are split.

One group, however, that strongly believes it is not morally acceptable, these are evangelical Christians. We broke them out.

About 22 percent of Americans meet our qualifications for being an evangelical Christian. See the big slice of the pie there. Six out of 10 say it's not morally acceptable. So this is the core constituency opposed to what the House is considering right now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Frank Newport, thank you so much. Gauging America there for us.

Well, this is one of those issues that's an emotional and ideological powder keg, and it touches on the subject of when you believe that life begins. Well, people on both sides are passionate in their arguments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM SCHMIDT, QUADRIPLEGIC: I just feel like every day I sit here in this chair is just another day I face a ton of challenges where I feel like there could be some parallel research being done at the same time. And I have to agree with several of the scientists here in the United States right now that say the real long-term and the big- picture promise will be with the -- with the embryonic stem cell type.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PHIL GINGREY (R), GEORGIA: Unfortunately, raw material and embryonic stem cell research are those embryos that are cloned is human life. And I agree with Sam Schmidt. I know of the work in Portugal with spinal cord injury patients. And I would say to him, that work, that technique, that miracle of science is available to him today, and why wait three or four or five years down the road for embryonic, which is unproven?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, you can keep up with the debate, of course, online at cnn.com/politics. And there you can read about two competing bills, and you can see an interactive animated guide to stem cell research.

O'BRIEN: All right. Live pictures to -- coming in to us now. Southern California is the location.

These pictures coming to us courtesy of our affiliate, KABC. And you're looking at some rescuers on the rocks beside a rapidly moving river in Irwindale, California, at the Santa Fe Dam recreational area. And as soon as the chopper pilot pulls back a little bit, on the right-hand part of your screen you'll see the object of their attention right now, which is a woman.

There you go. Mid-lower right portion of your screen as we zoom in. Stuck on the rocks there with her pooch. We presume it's her pooch. Maybe she went to rescue the dog. We don't know the full story just yet, but they're attempting to figure out how to safely get pooch and woman safely to shore there despite some rushing water.

Of course all that snow and rain over this past winter in California has now turned into a significant runoff. And there you see the results of that in those rapids there in Irwindale, California.

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