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Future of Iraq; Discussion With Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood; Honor Killings in Germany

Aired June 23, 2005 - 13:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: After a sometimes heated exchange with members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, you see Donald Rumsfeld there, along with John Warner, answering some questions from reporters there on the topic of troop withdrawal in Iraq. Let's listen in to what's being asked of Senator John Warner.
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SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: In my judgment, in working very closely with my colleagues, not only on the Republican side, but the Democrat side, I'm convinced that majority of them are solidly behind the objectives as stated by the president and the other heads of state and government of the coalition forces.

We have no alternative but to succeed in achieving our goals and allowing the Iraqi people to take over a secure nation and run it themselves.

QUESTION: What about any splits within the administration that we're not seeing, or quiet splits over strategy? Are you picking up any signals there?

WARNER: I will let the administration speak for that, but I'm not picking up any signals.

(CROSSTALK)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECY. OF DEFENSE: I don't know of any.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Are you picking up any signals?

RUMSFELD: I don't know of any.

QUESTION: Would you know if there were though?

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: You had your opportunity.

QUESTION: Do you share Senator Lieberman's fear that the American public is tipping away from support for the war? And how do you feel about the secretary's statement that they're being pushed?

WARNER: In my judgment the polls do reflect, at this time, the fact that fewer Americans are stepping up to lend their full support.

But I would not be swayed by the polls. I would look to the testimony today by our military leaders speaking on behalf of the men and women who are really undergoing the brunt of this war that they are full square behind the goals as established by the leadership.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, can I follow up on that, please?

RUMSFELD: Thanks very much.

WARNER: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, a very abrupt ending to that Q&A session with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Senator John Warner there, answering questions about the troop withdrawal, if there are plans for such, and if so, if a timetable has been set.

Earlier during the session, Donald Rumsfeld said to give, to promote a timetable of a troop withdrawal would only give terrorists the upper hand, insurgents, rather, the upper hand in Iraq.

Let's talk more about this with military analyst retired Major General Don Shepperd. He's joining us from Washington right now.

Good to see you, general.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: My pleasure, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well, Rumsfeld underscored that there would be real dangers that would come with setting a timetable for withdrawal. But at the same time, does the Pentagon, does the U.S. not owe it to Iraqis or U.S. troops to say something about how long the U.S. will be in Iraq?

SHEPPERD: Fredricka, it would be a terrible mistake to set a deadline. It would play right in on the hands of the insurgents, so they'd know when we're going to leave. There'd be even tremendous pressure to bring us out even sooner.

The administration owes an explanation, a constant explanation to the American people, of why we're there, why they're sacrificing their sons and daughters, but it's simply not possible to say we will be out on a date certain. We have to get the Iraqi government up and running. We have to get the Iraqi military and police forces up and running, and then it will be time for us to start withdrawing troops.

WHITFIELD: And do you see that happening any time in the near future?

SHEPPERD: I think we're making some headway there. Look, and this has been going on a year. The Iraqi government, in the middle of the war has been setup, has been elected. They're writing a constitution to be ratified in October, with elections to be held in December. That's a tall order in the middle of the war. I think they're going to meet the schedule, and then we'll talk about withdrawing troops next year, but not on a certain date.

WHITFIELD: But look at the body count of those who have signed up to be part of the Iraqi forces, there certainly seems to be a real shortage of being able to have enough bodies to secure that country.

SHEPPERD: I don't think it's a case of numbers. It's a case of we still have people standing in line to sign up for the military and the police fores everywhere in Iraq, according to everyone that I listen to. The key is getting them trained, and getting them effective. It takes time to do that.

But the key to Iraq's security is the Iraqis, not American forces. We can't occupy the country. We can't control the borders. They can. And we must get them capable of doing it -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: But isn't the White House arguing, that in order to help get the Iraqis up and running, the U.S. troops have to be there to help in the training?

SHEPPERD: They have to be there to help in the training, but they don't have to be there in numbers of 138,000. Again, I think you'll see us be able to withdraw some troops starting next year as they get more and more of their troops up to speed -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And do you see the operations of the insurgency changing? It seems as though the types of attacks, the methods of attacks are evolving constantly.

SHEPPERD: Yes, they're very effective. And I don't think we're ever going to run out of foreign jihadists and suicide bombers. That can go on for a long time. But that's why the key to this is the Iraqi forces. The people being killed are not American forces, although we do have some being killed on a monthly basis. It's Iraqis themselves that are suffering. They know who is doing this. They know where they are, and they've got to drive them out of their country, and we have to make them capable of doing it, and stay until we do -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Another hot-button issue has been Guantanamo Bay, the place in which many detainees from Afghanistan, that was on terrorism, have been held. You are going to be a part of a contingent to visit Gitmo tomorrow. What are your expectations about what you'll actually be able to see?

SHEPPERD: Yes, hopefully the trip will go on as scheduled, and I think we'll be able to see the full scale of how they're handling people. What I'd like to understand, is exactly why is Guantanamo important. What are you doing? What are the legal processes being followed there. And is there anyway we can close this place and do it anywhere else? I don't think there is, but I'd like to see the full score.

WHITFIELD: Where are you on that side of the argument, as to whether or not detainees should move on, or if they should remain in Gitmo? SHEPPERD: Well, my opinion, without having seen it, is that it would be crazy to close the place. You have to do it, you have to interrogate these people, and you have to contain them somewhere else. You can't release them back to their own countries, at least in large numbers. And so I think you've got to have someplace to do it. We've got a modern prison there, constructed at great expense. Where else would you do it, and that's kind of the question I'd like to ask.

WHITFIELD: All right, General Don Shepperd, we look forward to hearing your point of view when you come back from your trip to Guantanamo. Thanks so much for joining us.

The man convicted of killing three civil rights workers will die in prison. A closer look at the case and the sentence. We'll talk next with the man who never considered the Mississippi burning case closed.

And later, a chilling story. Hunted by her own family, a woman tries to avoid a so-called honor killing.

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WHITFIELD: Turkish culture considers it a matter of honor. German police say it's nothing less than murder.

CNN's Chris Burns brings us a personal look at honor killings.

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CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This 25-year-old Turkish woman lives in the shadows, afraid to reveal her identity or whereabouts, fearing she could become the victim of what is called an honor killing. We will call her Ayeesha (ph)

She says she was forced into two marriages in Turkey by her father. As a teenager, Ayeesha says she attempted suicide during the first and in the second, she says her husband brutalized her repeatedly for refusing sex.

AYEESHA (through translator): I ran out to the balcony. He came behind and said, how can you do that? You must sleep with me. And he grabbed me by the throat and held me over the railing. I was helpless. He took me into bed and raped me.

BURNS: Ayeesha says it was the beginning of an increasingly violent ordeal that ended here in Germany. She lived to tell the story, but not Hatun Surucu.

(on camera): After leaving her husband from an arranged marriage, Hatun Surucu was shot dead at this bus stop in February. Her three brothers, arrested as suspects. It was Berlin's sixth suspected honor killing in five months. Worldwide, the U.N. puts the figure at 5,000 a year.

(voice-over): Surucu's death, suspected of being done to restore her family's honor, sparked demonstrations from Germans and Turks alike. Some contend the government, striding toward a multicultural society, is looking the other way.

But German police complain they're not getting enough cooperation from the Turkish community to solve the killings.

KARL MOLLENHAUS, BERLIN POLICE PSYCHOLOGIST (through Burns): The Turkish community often lives with its own laws, with their own justices of the peace, for instance. They don't want Western jurisprudence.

BURNS: He says.

After Hatun Surucu left her husband, she took her son with her and started a new life, training to be an electrician. Surucu's family declined an interview, but a counselor for them says Surucu's breakup with her husband angered her father enough to break off ties with her.

ZAKAREIA WAHBI, SURUCU FAMILY COUNSELOR (through Burns): The mother and sister led the efforts to toward reconciliation, but unfortunately this. happened.

BURNS: What happened was the classic scenario of an honor killing, says Netcla Kelek, author of one book on the practice.

NECLA KELEK, AUTHOR, "DIE FREMDE BRAUT" (through translator): Usually the youngest son does it so not to get such a big sentence. He does it because she destroyed the family pride.

BURNS: Honor killings are again stirring claims German's multicultural society isn't working, a contention by conservatives who may just topple, (INAUDIBLE) Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder this fall. KELEK (through translator): The multicultural society, as its to be understood, has failed.

BURNS: Kelek says it's producing victims like Ayeesha, who says her father beat her when she refused to join her second husband in Germany, then forced her to fly here, where Ayeesha says her husband beat and raped her repeatedly. She agreed to go to a woman's home and her husband was thrown into jail. Divorced now, Ayeesha has child from her Turkish boyfriend.

AYEESHA (through translator): I lost my trust toward men. I live with my friend but I can't trust him, either. Since I was 17, they've played with my life and hurt me.

BURNS: Some here say tougher action is required to end the violence, action that would come too late to save Hatun Surucu.

Chris Burns, CNN, Berlin.

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WHITFIELD: In Philadelphia, Mississippi today, a judge handed down the maximum allowable sentence to a former Klan leader. Convicted two days earlier of manslaughter, Edgar Ray Killen, 80 years old sentenced to serve 60 years in a Mississippi prison. More than four decades after the so-called "Freedom Summer" killings, Jim Hood is Mississippi's attorney general, the top law enforcement official in the state. He joins us now with his reaction.

Good to see you.

JIM HOOD, MISS. ATTY. GEN: Good afternoon.

WHITFIELD: Well, Jim -- OK, hopefully you can hear me all right. Well, the judge prefaced his sentence by saying this is a difficult decision, sentencing is never easy. And in this case, some four decades later, however, he did sentence Killen to now 60 years, consecutive years, to serve. Do you believe a real message was being sent by the judge on this case?

HOOD: Yes. You know, I think the judge, he knew the evidence that we were not able to give to the jury about the defendant's participation. Actually one of the witnesses who gave a statement stated that the defendant told them before they went out there was going to be a murder. So the judge knew that it was a murder, and I think the sentence reflects that.

You know, there's so many ironies in this case. It's very ironic that he got more time by being sentenced under the manslaughter sentence than he would have under the murder statute, because under our murder statute, he would have become eligible for parole in 10 years, after he turned aged 65. Of course he's already got that. So it's ironic that he got more time by the manslaughter conviction.

WHITFIELD: And that is interesting, because there were some people after the convict who expressed their disappointment that he had -- he got a conviction on lesser charge of manslaughter than murder, particularly from mike the Michael Schwerner's widow, Rita Bender. She said she was disappointed, in saying, quote, "This conviction indicates that there are still people unfortunately among you who choose to look aside. That means there's a lot more to do be done." So do you agree with her sentiment,or feel that justice in some way did prevail here?

HOOD: I mean from the very beginning of the case, I knew that we had to have a lesser included offense instruction of manslaughter because of the statements that were attributed to the defendant, when he stated that we're going to go tear their butts up. So we had to have a lesser included in order to prove murder, we had to prove intent to kill, and that statements indicated they were going to beat them up and something went wrong. So that's what I anticipated the jury doing all along.

WHITFIELD: So this was sort of a safety net, so to speak.

HOOD: Yes, but I mean that was what I thought they would convict him of anyway, because clearly he was guilty of that crime. And had we been able to present all of the evidence that we had, you know, witnesses are dead and so forth, it was absolutely clear he planned these murders, and knew it was going to be a murder not a beat-'em-up. I think he just used that to con some of the guys that came up here from Meridian, to come up here and participate if they thought that it was going to be a beating.

WHITFIELD: Many residents in Philadelphia, Mississippi said, that just prior to the trial, and even during the trial, that this is a case that they have had to live with for four decades, have been unable to heal. Does this conviction, does this sentencing, in any way help Philadelphia move forward in the healing process?

HOOD: You know, I'm just a prosecutor. I'll have to leave that to the historians to make that determination as to what the impact of this case will be. But I'm just glad for Miss Chaney's sake. She told me that she wanted to live long enough to see somebody tried for murder in this case, and I'm glad that we were able to do that for her.

WHITFIELD: What does this say about the legal system, that here, four decades later, when many of the witnesses have passed on, you had to rely on written testimony, on transcripts, in order to prosecutor this case, what does this say about the durability of this legal system, even four decades after a crime has been committed?

HOOD: Yes, I'm just -- our decision in the past on the Byron Della Beckwith (ph) case opened it up for us to pursue a case at this time. There is no statute of limitations on murder, and there shouldn't be. You know, I told the jury, I said, how much time has to pass before we forgive someone for committing a murder? And I think that that -- our laws allow us to go back to get those that have committed crimes. And the state of Mississippi doesn't forgive.

WHITFIELD: All right, Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

HOOD: Sure. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: More of LIVE FROM right this.

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