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Questions About Karl Rove Persist; Burn Mask Victim Identified in London

Aired July 12, 2005 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: "Now in the News," the man accused of kidnapping 8-year-old Shasta Groene from her Idaho home is set to be charged today with three counts of murder. Authorities say that Joseph Edward Duncan will be charged with killing Groene's mother, older brother and mother's boyfriend. The killing of Dylan Groene, another brother, falls under the jurisdiction of Montana prosecutors.
Arizona authorities searching for two young children who went missing from a home where police found their grandparents and uncle killed. Maricopa County Sheriff's Office believes that 18-month-old Bryan Cervantes and his 3-year-old sister Jennifer are with their father, who police describe as an investigative lead in that case.

Now you can get CNN coverage of the day's top stories whenever you want, with just a simple click of the mouse. Just log on to CNN.com to watch free video clips of the top headlines.

PHILLIPS: He's the president's man, his top political adviser with easy access to the oval office. But just who is Karl Rove and why do questions persist about him in the midst of a criminal investigation over who divulged the secret identity of a CIA agent?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL ROVE, WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: I didn't know her name and didn't leak her name.

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Last August, Karl Rove, one of the president's closest advisers, denying any involvement in exposing an undercover CIA agent. But there's no denying Rove is a powerful influence at the White House.

KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. REAGAN W.H. CHIEF OF STAFF: Somebody who is a keen student of history and somebody who clearly has the president's total confidence.

PHILLIPS: Republicans praise Rove. Even Democrats give him high marks.

DONNA BRAZILE, FMR. GORE CAMPAIGN MGR.: Karl Rove is the master of the games.

PHILLIPS: Rove usually stays in the background, but last month he let loose at a meeting of New York state conservatives.

ROVE: Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding to our attackers.

PHILLIPS: Critics called for an apology, but his boss said there was no need.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The architect, Karl Rove.

PHILLIPS: Rove's relationship with the Bush family goes back to the early 1970s, when Rove worked for the president's father, Bush 41, then chairman of the Republican national committee. Rove later planned George W. Bush's winning races for governor in Texas and his two presidential campaigns.

DUBERSTEIN: If you look at the circle of people who sit down and make big decisions in that administration, the seats at that table are few and far between and Karl has the first seat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, from the first seat to the hot seat. Is Rove in trouble? The mystery is certainly captivating Washington, while mum's the word at the White House. It seems like everybody else is sounding off about it, though, like my guests.

Peter Beinart with "The New Republic" is in Washington and syndicated columnist Joel Mowbray is in New York. Gentlemen, great to see you both.

JOEL MOWBRAY, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Glad to be here.

PETER BEINART, "NEW REPUBLIC": Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: OK, Peter, so what do you think? Does Karl Rove need to come forward, just admit the facts, tell everybody what's going on or remain quiet?

BEINART: Well, politically, it would clearly be better for him to go out and state the facts. It's always politically better in these circumstances to be up-front. Usually what happens, though, is people's lawyers tell them not to do that. There's always a tension -- you saw that during the Clinton years -- between what's good politically and what's good legally. And usually the lawyers win because people are afraid and Karl Rove may have reason to afraid of the legal trouble he's in.

PHILLIPS: There's a lot at stake here, though. Joel, what do you think?

MOWBRAY: Yes, I think actually Peter hit the nail on the head. And by the way, even if you've done nothing wrong, speaking out is always against a lawyer's advice, because things can and will be used against you in a court of law. So I think Karl Rove might be walking a tight rope here. But it's interesting, all the hullabaloo over this. It seems that the Democrats' comments, at the very least, are way, way overblown, given what we know right now.

PHILLIPS: Well, but we do know a lot at this point. You really think it's overblown?

MOWBRAY: Oh, absolutely.

PHILLIPS: I mean, look at the evidence that's surfacing. And -- I mean, this is a man that shapes policy at the White House.

MOWBRAY: Sure. So far we have nothing other than him trying to take a reporter off of a false story. Remember, Joe Wilson was saying that he was sent, you know, because of his contacts and, you know, that there was no other motive there. When, in fact, the only reason he was sent -- it appears and the Senate select committee, Senate Select Intelligence Committee today confirmed what they said almost a year ago, which is that Rove -- not Rove, that Joe Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was the one who wrote the letter recommending that her husband go to Niger because he had good contacts there and, in fact, he did go. They had a meeting the day after the letter was sent and that seems to have been, at least according to a bipartisan opinion of a Senate committee, that that was the reason why he went.

PHILLIPS: All right. I think definitely we've established there's a credibility factor here.

MOWBRAY: Absolutely.

PHILLIPS: But, Peter, what about the criminal factor? I mean, we are talking about a crime, aren't we? If, indeed, this plays out that he was attached to this. I mean, you know, disclosing the identity of a covert CIA agent is against the law.

BEINART: Yes, and with all due respect, Joel's description of this -- of this is ridiculous. I mean, the point is that Joe Wilson was absolutely right when he said that, in fact, Iraq had not tried to buy uranium yellow cake from Niger, and Karl Rove was trying to undermine that. And Joe Wilson was right and Karl Rove was wrong. The issue here is did Karl Rove say to Robert Novak Valerie name and that she was an undercover agent.

He's clearly been told -- we now know that he was talking about this woman and that he was trying to discredit her and trying to discredit her husband. He doesn't seem to have -- in that e-mail to Matt Cooper, he didn't mention her name. So he didn't commit a crime in that e-mail. But it seems to me, once you know that he's talking to one reporter about it, it is very likely that he may have been Robert Novak's source and Robert Novak clearly did find out from someone in the White House that Valerie Plame -- what her name was and that she was an undercover operative. And that could be a crime.

PHILLIPS: Joel?

MOWBRAY: Well, look, again, with all due respect to Peter, I find it interesting that he finds that Wilson was right and that Rove is wrong. "The Washington Post," in fact, last year when they reported the fact that Wilson lied about the real reason he was sent to Niger, they said that, in fact, the question of yellow cake and Niger was the one unsolved -- one of the few unsolved areas when it comes to weapons of mass destruction and pre-war intelligence. So "The Washington Post" certainly doesn't agree with Peter's assessment.

BEINART: Well, it's interesting that you cite "The Washington Post." But everyone who went to Niger -- it wasn't just Wilson, there were three different people who did reports on this, and they all said that it was bogus. And then the U.N. said that it was bogus. And then it turned out the administration had to backtrack.

MOWBRAY: Remember -- now, Peter, hang on, hang on. Remember, though, that one of the things that Joe Wilson used as justification was he said, well, you know, the forged documents. He said the dates were wrong and the names were wrong. Well, it turns out, he never had access to either the documents themselves or the information in the documents.

BEINART: Those -- the documents...

MOWBRAY: We didn't have the documents until eight months after he made the trip to Niger, so plain fact...

BEINART: But he was right. The point is that he was...

MOWBRAY: He guessed! He guessed, Peter. He didn't have any direct knowledge.

BEINART: Joe, that is not -- Joe, he went to Niger. He talked to a whole bunch of people. He found exactly the same things that everybody else has found, which is the White House was peddling this false story. And when the U.N. got the document with a Google search, they found that they were forged. That is the larger context here. Joe Wilson is not the one with the creditability problem. Karl Rove is the one with the credibility problem.

MOWBRAY: Peter, look, I'm surprised because normally -- I mean, honestly, normally, Peter, I respect you completely and I'm surprised you're taking this opinion, honestly, because this is a clear-cut case of Joe Wilson at best...

PHILLIPS: Joel, take a look -- Joel, take a look -- I mean, let's talk about the partisan politics here just for a moment. Let's take a look at the timeframe, July 2003. What was hot during that time period?

MOWBRAY: Right.

PHILLIPS: We're talking about the war in Iraq. We're talking about weapons of mass destruction. A lot of controversy about whether there was WMD or not.

MOWBRAY: Right, right.

PHILLIPS: I mean, if, indeed, this is true and Karl Rove is the leak, it would make sense, with regard to partisan politics and this sort of architect he is when it comes to shaping policy.

MOWBRAY: Look, and by the way, I think it's a completely legitimate story that his wife had a hand in it. Now, again, going back -- and Peter said this earlier -- that it doesn't look, based on the "Newsweek" story reporting on the e-mail between Matt Cooper of "Time" and his editor, it doesn't look as if Rove was revealing the name of Valerie Plame or even that she was a covert operative.

In fact, it's a very good likelihood -- David Korn of "The Nation" has pointed this out -- that there was somebody, you know, from the CIA who was working at the NSC at the time on loan and that person may have mentioned that Valerie Plame was Joe Wilson's wife. She worked at the CIA and had a hand in sending him there. And it may be that Rove had no idea that she was either CIA or undercover. It could have been something that was completely innocent on his part. But assuming that he didn't know she was covert, I think it's a very legitimate story to put out there the full motivation for Joe Wilson.

PHILLIPS: OK, if, indeed -- if, indeed, it turns out that Karl Rove is the leak, the president is saying he will fire whoever is deemed responsible for this. I want to hear from both of you, what do you think, just quickly. Peter, do you think Karl Rove's job is at stake? Could he be fired?

BEINART: He could be fired, but I think that he won't be fired unless more comes out. I think he is too valuable to this president. My guess would be that George W. Bush will withstand a lot before he dumps Karl Rove. So we will have to find out more. But this e-mail suggests we may find out more. And the question is not Joe Wilson, the question is Karl Rove and who identified Valerie Plame. If Joel is right and it's some lower level person who was on the CIA, then Karl Rove may get off. But if you want to have to bet who it was right now, you would bet Karl Rove.

PHILLIPS: All right, Joel, real quickly, two seconds, is he going to go or not? What's your call?

MOWBRAY: If he did release the name of Valerie Plame and knew that she was covert, yes, I don't see how he couldn't release that. But based on what we know now, there's nothing to suggest that is the case. So I think he'll stay.

PHILLIPS: All right. Joel Mowbray, Peter Beinart. Always a pleasure, guys. Thanks.

MOWBRAY: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right.

More now on our top story, the London attacks. Authorities have identified four more people -- or four of the victims, rather, that were killed in last Thursday's string of bombings. Their bodies were recovered from the bus bombing in Tavistock Square. Thirteen people died in that bombing alone. Only 5 of the 52 people killed in all of the attacks have been identified so far.

Two Tennessee sisters injured in last week's bombings are back in the states. They both underwent reconstructive surgery at Duke University Hospital in North Carolina yesterday. Twenty-one-year-old Katie Benton and her 20-year-old sister Emily are in stable condition now. Both are said to be dealing well with their ordeal. Earlier today on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," doctors said they're definitely in good spirits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both these young ladies are very, very lucky. One of the passengers tragically adjacent to them, just sitting next to them did not survive the blast and I think it has to do with how the projectile material and the bomb exploded, the direction of the fragments and just sheer fortune that they're alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, in the aftermath of the attacks, many pictures stayed with us: The wreckage of the bus, the injured people limping away and the shot of that woman in a white burns mask that captured the horror of that moment. Well, we now know who she is. Our Mallika Kapur has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALLIKA KAPUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An indelible image of Thursday's deadly bomb blasts: A woman in a burns mask; barefoot and bloodied stumbling away from the Edgware Road tube station. Within hours, the picture was splashed across newspapers and Web sites around the world.

Family photographs reveal the face behinds mask: A smiling healthy Davinia Turrell. A 24-year-old corporate tax trainee from Essex. Davinia was on her way to work when she was caught in the blast in the Circle Line train. Just a month earlier, she had lost her mother to cancer. She's now being treated at London's Chelsea and Westminster Hospital.

LOUISE WELLS, VICTIM'S SISTER: The burns to her left side of her face, which are -- so the doctor said a lot were superficial. So, there's a lot more people out there that suffered a lot more than Davinia. It was really good how they put the mask on her straightaway, because that helped a lot.

KAPUR: The person who put the mask on is former firefighter Paul Dadge, who spotted Davinia as she emerged from the tube station.

He was a fantastic guy. All the pictures show him with such courage. I'd like to personally -- my thanks go to him at keeping her calm and he's amazing. Sometime in the future she would like to see him.

WELLS: He was a fantastic guy. All the pictures show him with such courage and courageousness. I'd like to personally go -- my thanks go out to him for calming her down and keeping her calm. And he's amazing. Sometime in the future, Davinia would like to see him.

KAPUR: He's been called a samaritan and a hero.

PAUL DADGE, FORMER FIREFIGHTER: I never want to be labeled as a hero. Everybody there was heroes.

KAPUR: A symbol of the blasts, also the symbol of courage.

Mallika Kapur, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead: Under water near Atlanta. The southeast drying out and assessing the damage now, in the aftermath of Hurricane Dennis.

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Sibila Vargas in Hollywood. Fans of "Harry Potter" and "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" will be happy this weekend.

And Farm Aid is back: We'll tell you when, where and who's headlining right here on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, the southeast is drying out and cleaning up from the mess left behind by what was Hurricane Dennis. Check this out in Georgia: The Six Flags theme park re-opening one day after getting hit with 10 inches of rain. State insurance officials are estimating damages at more than three million dollars. They expect that figure to grow.

And along the Florida panhandle, nervous homeowners are getting their first glimpses of the damage wrought by Dennis. Many of them are returning home to find roofs and walls missing and belongings tossed out.

Well, the latest tale of everyone's favorite boy wizard is about to hit the shelves and the long-awaited debut of director Tim Burton's big screen vision of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" is just days away. Plus, what's Brad Pitt doing in the hospital?

From Hollywood, Sibila Vargas has all this in that entertainment report. Hi, Sibila.

VARGAS: Hey, Kyra.

"Charlie and the Chocolate Factory:" Preparing to do battle this weekend at the box office. But its greatest competition may come from the book stores.

Sure, stars like Britney Spears turned up at the movie's premier wearing little baby Tees promoting the movie, but that might not be enough to keep Charlie from feeling the squeeze from the boy wizard. J.K. Rowling's latest installment of "Harry Potter" series, "The Half-Blood Prince," arrives in book stores this weekend.

The heavily hyped book goes on sale at 12:01 a.m. Saturday, with more fanfare than previous "Potter" books combined. And some book sellers are even gearing up to host midnight magic parties. That should be fun. Can you feel it? Generosity is in the air. First it was Live 8 and now it's Farm Aid that's making a comeback. Twenty years after its founders, Willie Nelson and John Mellencamp and Neil Young organized the musical event to benefit cash-strapped farmers, the trio will be taking the stage again.

This time, Dave Matthews will be joining them. The event will be held September 18th, at a concert venue in Tinely Park near Chicago. Now, tickets go on sale July 30th.

And CNN has just learned that actor Brad Pitt checked himself into a Los Angeles hospital. Now, very few details are being released, but according to the actor's publicist, Pitt checked himself into the hospital last night after complaining of flu-like symptoms. The publicist, Cindy Guagenti, told us that Pitt will be release later today and that he's doing just fine.

Now, you may recall the 41-year-old actor was in Ethiopia last week with "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" co-star Angelina Jolie. We hope he's doing fine. Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: That could be something with the food and water. Now, you sat down with him and talked with him not too long ago, right?. You guys are pretty good friends. Why don't you call him up and get the scoop.

VARGAS: I sure did. It was funny. And you know, he said the rumors about him and Vince Vaughn, his co-star, were not, not, not true. So, he's go a little -- he was a little funny. Funny guy.

PHILLIPS: You laid that out very good.

All right, Sibila. Thank you very much.

Well, fear factor now: Are American anxieties on the rise in the aftermath of the London terror attacks? We're taking the pulse of the people.

Plus: The best places to live. Find out if you town tops the list, when LIVE FROM returns

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, the bombings in London have stirred up fresh anxiety here. Americans are obviously thinking more about the possibility of terror attacks aimed at the U.S. targets. And Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport has been listening to what they're saying.

Frank, how much has the fear factor gone up?

FRANK NEWPORT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GALLUP: Well, perhaps not surprisingly, Kyra, it certainly has gone up based on a couple different measures included in our weekend CNN/"USA Today/Gallup poll. One question that we have tracked fairly consistently since 9/11, how likely do you think it is that a terrorist attack will occur in the United States in the next several weeks? Now, Americans had been trending down in the percentages, said it was very or somewhat likely. In fact, they've been all the down to 35 percent in June. Now, a 20- point jump on the weekend after the London bombings. Up to 55 percent, clearly a result of concerns that if happened there it could happen elsewhere around the world.

Also each month, we at Gallup ask Americans what's the most important problem facing the country today? And these are the coded categories of responses. Terrorism comes in second, at 17 percent. And, Kyra, what's significant about that, last month it was 8 percent. So that's not a huge jump, but clearly more top of mind for Americans now than it was just several weeks ago.

PHILLIPS: Well, does the public see any connection between the terror attacks and the Iraq War?

NEWPORT: They do. This is a question that we asked again. Do you believe the war in Iraq has made the U.S. safer or less safe from terrorism? And just by way of comparison, we had just asked this a couple of weeks ago. That's on the left there. Notice that Americans are a little more likely to say that Iraq made the U.S. safer from terrorism. Now on the right, you see a switch, about a 15 point increase in the percent who say less safe. Maybe that's because Americans perceive that one of the rationales for the bombing in London was the British support for the U.S. in Iraq.

PHILLIPS: So has that made an impact on President Bush's approval rating?

NEWPORT: Well, significantly, it's statistically significant, no, Kyra. Three point increase. You know, we see those kind of moves up and down in polls. But I think we could say we had expected maybe a modest rally effect which occurs after these types of international events. So we'll say it's now at 49 percent, which is a little up from where it has been over the last several polls.

PHILLIPS: All right, well, I would think that a lot of economists and business leaders are focused on what impact all the recent events may be having on consumer confidence.

NEWPORT: Well, Kyra, we're studying very carefully the first read on consumer confidence we have here Gallup after the London attacks. And bottom line is, not much change at all. Neither have Americans become less confident in the economy, nor have they become more. Bottom line now, little over half of Americans still say the U.S. economy, getting worse -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Frank Newport, thank you very much.

Well, if you're looking to relocate, whether it's for a better school district or a better social life, you're going to want to hear the next story. Kathleen Hays has a list of the best places to live. All right. How do they rank?

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, I'm going to start with the bad news, at least for you and me. Atlanta and New York didn't make the top ten this year, sorry to tell you. But Moorestown, New Jersey, took the top spot as the best place in America to live, according to a study by "Money" magazine and CNNmoney.com. Moorestown has good schools, easy access to highways, and proximity to both Philadelphia and New York City.

Now, a number of locales with small town charm made the list. Barrington, Rhode Island, for example, took the number six spot. Don't be fooled by the town's summer resort feel. Test scores at its six public schools are the highest in that state. For a complete list of the top 100 places to live, check out CNN.money.com. See how your town stacks up -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, I saw Peachtree City, Georgia, is not too far away. Drive about 40 minutes the other direction. All right.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, more on finding the leak. Did Karl Rove, one of the president's closest advisers, play a role in revealing the identity of a covert CIA operative? We're live on that story.

And shuttle countdown. Is NASA ready for tomorrow's launch? We're live from the Kennedy Space Center, as LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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