Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

London Terror; Saddam Hussein Appears in Court

Aired July 21, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIR IAN BLAIR, LONDON METROPOLITAN POLICE COMMISSIONER: But we can all see in front of us that the four would-be attacks have a similar pattern to the previous one. We need, I think, to think a bit further or to know a bit more before we could link it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Terrorists strike again in Britain. We're live from London with the investigation and what today's attempted attacks mean for the global war on terror.

Tunneling into America, new information about a sophisticated drug smuggling pipeline in an unexpected place.

Defiant former dictator Saddam Hussein, apparently in court today. Wait until you hear what he had to say to the judge.

From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

Our top story, the attempted attacks in London on underground trains and a bus, a haunting reminder of the deadly string of bombings just two weeks ago today. The crucial difference, today, the devices apparently failed after unknown perpetrators tried to set them off. But London is far from unscathed. Panic ensued, followed by confusion, followed by a sense that two such incidents in only two weeks is more than just a coincidence.

Standing by live with the latest from London, chief international correspondent CNN's Christiane Amanpour -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we have precious few details, other than the fact that these devices did go off this afternoon here.

The commissioner, the London Metropolitan Police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, talked to the press just about an hour ago. He wouldn't give, as he said, details of an ongoing investigation, but he did say that there was forensic evidence at the scene and that would be -- quote -- "very helpful" to their investigation.

He was asked whether these -- whether the bombers had tried to do more than they had actually accomplished. And he said, well, all I can say is that some of the devices did not explode. So, potentially, from what our analysts are saying, they may find some of these devices at the scene. They may have found them and may know more about the bombers and the methods they used once they get them.

Prime Minister Blair also spoke publicly. It wasn't a press conference and he wasn't addressing the nation. He was simply making remarks during a visit with the Australian prime minister, John Howard.

He was a little on the defensive, because people were asking him whether he thought that it was because of Britain's support for the Iraq war that this had happened. Prime Minister Blair said that this was -- quote -- "not incident-specific."

Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The roots of this are deep. You know, this is -- this is the mistake of people thinking this suddenly began in the past couple of years. The roots of this were deep.

The terrorist attacks go back over 10 years. And the way of defeating it is to defeat it of course by security measures, but also by going after the ideas of these people, the ideology of these people, their arguments, as well as their methods, taking them on and defeating them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Well, as you can imagine, to have these kinds of bombings twice in two weeks, many people were asking the -- the police commissioner how they could reassure Londoners and commuters.

And he said, well, at this time, I can't answer that question, because I don't have enough information. Again, he urged people to be patient. He said that he would give out details as soon as they were able to do so.

The mayor of London said that there was no way that they could foolproof or, rather, guarantee any kind of foolproof security in the underground system, because the only technology capable of doing that or at least helping would be the kind of technology used in airports. And that was impractical and impossible in the underground system -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Christiane Amanpour, live from London, thank you so much.

Now let's go to the scene of one of the incidents, the area near London's Warren Street station and the area nearby University College hospital.

Standing by live at that location, CNN's Matthew Chance.

Matthew, what do you know?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, thanks very much. Well, a great deal of disruption caused as a result of these attempted explosions, as we understand them, from the London police commissioner. One of those explosions took place just a short distance from here. I'll step out of the way of the camera for a moment so you can see the scene along this street. There are police officers there, obviously.

At the end of that street, that's Warren Street train station, one of the most central underground stations in London and a key transport plate. It would have been a very busy station, indeed, and very busy train indeed at that lunch hour commute period, when the explosion apparently took place. It's not exactly clear the circumstances under which the incident took place.

Police at the scene here telling us there was certainly an explosion that took place in Warren Street station a short distance away from the platform either going in or going out of the station. But we also understand it's an extremely small explosion. It didn't really cause a great deal of damage, although there are reports that one injury was caused here.

And there are, again, reports, rumors, speculation at this stage, nothing being confirmed to us, that that injured may have been the person who was carrying the device in his or her backpack. At this point, police are not commenting on any of this. Certainly, what I can tell you is that hundreds, thousands of people have been immensely disrupted over the course of the past several hours.

Hundreds of them in streets that you can't see from here are making their way to other train stations, trying to get their way home, because one of the key differences between these attacks and the attacks two weeks ago is that, unlike two weeks ago, only a few of the underground lines here in London have actually been frozen, have actually been suspended.

There are other transport links, other underground train lines that are still operating. And so police are at work, busy, trying to redirect people, so they can get home as easily as possible, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Matthew Chance, standing by at that location, continue to check in with you. Thank you so much.

And today's incidents, of course, come exactly two weeks after another series of coordinated blasts in the city; 52 people and four of the bombers were killed, you'll remember. U.S. investigators believe that a man suspected of facilitating the actions of the four bombers earlier this month also tried to set up a terrorist training camp in Oregon.

CNN's America Bureau's Kelli Arena has the latest on that investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Haroon Rashid Aswat allegedly scouted this Bly, Oregon, ranch for use as a jihad training camp and even met with potential recruits.

Officials say he came to the United States in November of 1999 and was working with this man, James Ujaama, a U.S. citizen who reached a plea deal with the government and continues to corporate with investigators.

A 2002 indictment against Ujaama says Aswat, listed only as an unidentified co-conspirator, conducted firearms training in Oregon and acted as an emissary for the radical British cleric, Abu Hamza al- Masri, currently in British custody.

In a statement, Aswat's family, currently living in Britain, said, "We have not had contact with him for many years."

Investigators believe Aswat left Britain shortly before the London attacks and traveled to Pakistan, sources familiar with the investigation say. And the sources say British officials have asked Pakistan to help find him.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: More on the terror attacks and the tactics behind what we've seen in London.

Our security analyst Ken Robinson coming up right after the break.

Also, Saddam Hussein calls his situation a game, just ahead on LIVE FROM, new tape of the former Iraqi dictator apparently at a legal proceeding today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: And scuffle in Sudan, as some of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's staff and members of the press are roughed up. We've got the details on the incident and the apology.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: And we want to bring you up to date now on the big story out of London. Explosive devices apparently failed to work as intended today on three London trains and a bus. Police say that evidence left at the scene could yield a breakthrough in finding those responsible.

The closely timed incident produced panic and later confusion, but no reported deaths. It's exactly two weeks since multiple blasts in London killed 52 people and four suicide attackers. Police say they don't know yet if a connection indeed exists between the two events. Joining us now from Los Angeles, Ken Robinson, our CNN military intelligence analyst.

We've been talking about this all morning, Ken.

First of all, from what you can see, what you know, police say the evidence they've found means a significant breakthrough. There's also evidence that was found two weeks ago about what kind of explosives were possibly used here.

What do you think? Is it going to be a pretty good case here for police with regard to finding someone?

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it certainly appears that it's the same group, the same like-minded group, the same ideology, the same goal, which is to establish enormous fear in the capital, in London.

PHILLIPS: Well, and we've talked so much about that fear and is this some type of message that the jihadists are trying to send to America. They're going to start in, say, Iraq and Afghanistan and now London and possibly the U.S..

What do you think the chances of that are of happening, Ken, knowing what you know with regard to intelligence? Do Americans, does D.C. need to wake up and really take action and engage in preventative maintenance.

ROBINSON: Well, the United States understands and recognizes this threat.

The issue is how to deal with it. What policies is the U.S. going to use that will deal with the disease and not simply attack the symptoms of these jihadists? They do have a very clear message. Osama bin Laden has been speaking in very plain, clear English. And he's communicating now to this global jihadist network in a virtual reality world over the Internet.

They have distance learning through tapes they've distributed online. They have a leaderless resistance to their plan, which is decades into the future. We're looking at policies right now that take us maybe to the next election. They're thinking decades into the future. And they're shaping an environment of fear right now and trying to in all of the Western capitals.

PHILLIPS: All right. So, if you -- so, looking at the larger problem here is what I'm taking from what you're saying, the fact that this is a leaderless resistance. It's not just Osama bin Laden calling the shots. There are cells and factions all over the world now, operating on their own, with others. You mentioned this distance learning. That's true. We don't see the camps like we used to, right? It's -- everything seems to be done by videotape or online.

So how, then, does the United States, how do other countries attack the sort of global problem? It -- it sounds like it's not necessarily military or police security type of reaction, but more of reevaluating policy and getting deeper into the issue than just handling what happens, like what we're seeing in London.

ROBINSON: General Abizaid, who is dealing with the problem in Iraq and in Afghanistan, has been quoted several times as saying that the military is only 10 percent of the solution, that the United States and its allies and the West need to look at this global jihadist movement and look at the -- the hate that's being taught in these madrasas, these schools, which are in areas where they have disenfranchised youth who are being raised on spoonfuls of hate three times a day.

They need to look at the policies towards those countries because two trains need to leave the station simultaneously. One is the clear and present danger of these attacks and to try to identify those insurgents, break up those cells and deter or destroy them. But more importantly is making sure we're not fighting the next three or four generations.

And to do that, we have to deal with the symptom and the disease. And the disease, quite frankly, is this hopelessness that exists in these communities where these people are being recruited, and also the hopelessness involved with the Palestinian-Israeli question that needs to be settled to take the oxygen away from the flame that fans their hate towards the West.

PHILLIPS: So, approach this as the United States approached the Cold War, then?

ROBINSON: There needs to be a strategy that is as well thought through as that which we used to contain in the Cold War, where we need to empower moderate Muslims, so they have a voice, where we liberate women, because everywhere where women are subjugated, you find terrorism recruitment is pretty high, and to find a way to economically empower and make to people lose the hopelessness and to be able to give them something other than the choice of death to fight the West.

PHILLIPS: Well, what about the United States' relationships with countries like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia? A lot of these jihadists say, until the United States stop supporting these what they say corrupt governments, this -- this hatred will continue. Is that what we -- is what the United States need to start doing, is -- is sort of approaching policy with each individual country?

And my guess is, you would say start dealing with Pakistan more aggressively and -- and Pervez Musharraf.

ROBINSON: Well, we -- this is such a complex question you just asked me. One of the challenges is, as -- as Musharraf in particular, he's been a pretty darn good ally so far in trying to contain this.

When Aaron Brown and I were in his home in Pakistan last year, one of the things he said was, you know, we're not doing this for the West. We're not doing this for you. We're doing this for us, because he recognizes this jihadist threat. Today, earlier today, he was quoted as -- as repeating that same message.

PHILLIPS: But, Ken...

ROBINSON: The...

PHILLIPS: But look at what's happening there with Pakistan with regard to the border, the problems at the border, the fact that three of the bombers that died two weeks ago from Pakistani origin, there's all this talk that Osama bin Laden is still being protected in Pakistan.

I mean, I realize he's walking a fine line, Pervez Musharraf. He's had assassination attempts, of course, a number of those within just the past two years. So, he's nervous about that. But don't you think he could be more aggressive? I mean, it keeps -- so many of these problems keep coming back to this relationship with Pakistan.

ROBINSON: It's true with the relationship with Pakistan and our relationship with the Saudis, who are funding the madrasas which are in Pakistan.

Part of the problem is, is, he can't have his central government provide the goods and services in those lawless areas, the area of Waziristan, the Northwest Frontier Province, where they believe the former Taliban and al Qaeda went to, which is an area that has never been subjugated by anyone, going all the way back to Genghis Khan. No one has been able to subjugate that area. The British couldn't do it.

And he's trying to talk to those tribal elders. He's trying to deal with the Islamic fundamentalist problem he has in his capital cities. He's dealing with the disenfranchised youth in his streets. He has a complex problem. I'm not saying he's the best in the world, but the guy is trying.

The larger issue for us is, we have to recognize, the United States does, that our relations with each of these countries is very complex and is going to transcend the next five or 10 presidents, and we must find a long-term solution that is addressing the reason that they fight and not simply going after them because they fight.

PHILLIPS: Point well made. Ken Robinson, always great to talk to you. Thank you.

ROBINSON: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, there are reports that Saddam Hussein has made a court appearance in Iraq. CNN has not been able to confirm the reports, but Al-Arabiya television network has broadcast video of what it claims is a hearing for the former Iraqi leader.

Joining me now with more on this, senior editor of Arab affairs Octavia Nasr.

OK, you saw -- you were just watching Al-Arabiya and this tape came across. Do we know if, indeed, it was a hearing of some sort?

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Yes. The special tribunal is now that saying, yes, there was a hearing. They're calling it an investigation, an interrogation sort of thing, not a hearing. But, throughout the video, you hear the judge or the official there telling Saddam Hussein that this is a hearing.

One interesting thing about this tape is that it -- it seems that Saddam Hussein is still convinced he's the president of Iraq. He's very much -- he's acting like an authority there. He's challenging the court, challenging the official speaking to him, ridiculing the Iraqi government. He's very much in control.

The only thing he's not in control with is the situation. He keeps talking about this as a trial, saying, where's my lawyer? I want my lawyer. And they keep telling him, it's not a -- a trial. This is just a hearing. You're here to -- to listen to us tell you what the charges are against you.

And he's challenging all that.

PHILLIPS: All right, let -- let's take a little chunk of this, if we can. Sonya (ph), I don't know if we have it racked up. And maybe we can just listen. All right, let's take a listen to part of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI DICTATOR: I am detained and this is a game. I am detained by the Iraqi government, which is appointed by the Americans.

By law, a lawyer should be with the defendant. Is it fair that the lawyer cannot see the defendant, except in court sessions and would be unaware of any trials?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: We saw him challenging the judge the last time we saw him in court. Now, this judge seemed to handle him pretty well. Do you think he was intimidated by Saddam Hussein?

NASR: Well, he -- he wasn't necessarily intimidated, but he was comfortable. The guy tried to talk the whole time. He is trying to say something and Saddam Hussein is interrupting him. At one point, in this video, the last video we heard, you hear the -- the -- the judge sort of raise his voice, raise the tone of his voice, basically to tell him to be quiet, to listen, because all he's trying to do is just read the charges.

At one point, he raises his hands like, just stop talking. Very interesting how Saddam Hussein -- you can see from his demeanor that he's sitting there comfortable. He's -- you know, he takes his glasses when he needs to. He puts them on to read documents.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Like life is normal...

NASR: Very normal.

PHILLIPS: ... and...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: ... doesn't understand why this is happening.

Why didn't he have a lawyer?

NASR: Well, because it's a hearing.

PHILLIPS: OK. Doesn't have to be there.

NASR: The judge kept telling him, it's a hearing. You're only here to listen to the charges against you. And, basically, he's challenging the authority of the court, challenging the Iraqi government.

One interesting thing he is saying, he is saying, am I hostage of the U.S. or I'm a detainee of the Iraqi government, which is named, which is put in place by the Americans? And, at -- at one point, the judge is trying to answer to this question. And -- and he interrupts him immediately, saying, no, no, you are a man of law. You know what I'm talking about, very interesting to see.

What -- what is also interesting about this tape is that it's raw. You know, Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya obtained it from someone from inside the court, they told us. So, basically, it was leaked. This is a tape that was not vetted, that was not looked at by Iraqi or U.S. authorities and basically just aired on Al-Arabiya as it was leaked to them, as raw as can be, very interesting, the subtle details that we saw on this tape.

PHILLIPS: Well, do we know what's next? Is -- will there be another type of hearing like this, or -- do you know what the next move is for Saddam Hussein?

NASR: Apparently, there are hearings like this, just to tell him what the charges that he faces are.

PHILLIPS: Keep him updated.

NASR: Keep him updated, sort of, except the poor thing.

(LAUGHTER)

NASR: I mean, he -- he is just sitting there acting weird. You go -- you don't know if you want to feel sorry for him or not feel sorry for him, because the whole -- he's -- he's -- he's somehow delusional, if you will, because he's sitting there. He thinks that he's on trial. He wanted to answer the charges. And they kept him telling him, no, no, no, this isn't the time to answer the charges. Now you just listen. And that's something he could not do. So, what is next for him is more hearings to hear the charges. And, of course, he has a team of lawyers that will get the chance to defend him in -- in court. And it seems like we're hearing that we will be having access to those trials.

PHILLIPS: I don't know if we could find someone that will feel sorry for him, but it is pretty pathetic. That is true.

Octavia Nasr, thank you very much.

Well, straight ahead, how did the July 7 bombers go from being students, husbands and fathers to becoming terrorists? Just ahead on LIVE FROM, what experts say about how easy it is to learn the tricks of the trade.

And a cross-border tunnel. We have got details of what investigators uncovered at a location that just might surprise you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: What once was Hurricane Emily is a tropical depression moving over northeastern Mexico now, nearly 24 hours after making landfall. Forecasters say that Emily has weakened considerably, but still poses a significant flooding threat as it dumps torrential rains in the region. It's moving slowly to the West, with maximum sustained winds near 30 miles per hour. Emily record ashore yesterday as a Category 3 hurricane with sustained winds up to 125 miles an hour. Thousands of people were forced to flee their homes.

For the latest on what's next with Emily, let's go to meteorologist Rob Marciano -- Rob.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Kyra, it continues to wind down as far as the winds are concerned, but it's not moving all that much.

And you can see on the satellite picture, just kind of festering in the mountains of Mexico, certainly weakening, but still a fair amount of moisture with this. And that has been the main story the past 24 hours.

As far as what kind of moisture we've been seeing, well, across South Texas, we have seen just a little bit of rain, but most of the action has been well south of it. This actually estimates the amount of rainfall we can -- that has fallen out of the sky. So, most of it south of the Rio. And, because of that, the rain that Texas could use hasn't materialized all that -- all that much.

All right, what's the other big story today? The heat. This is what's happening currently, 97 in St. Louis, 99 degrees in Denver, 99 degrees in Phoenix. And this is not even taking into account the humidity. If you were to add humidity levels in here, it would feel like well over 97 degrees in St. Louis. So, we do have heat warnings and heat advisories that are out for the -- much of the Midwest. These are actual temperatures that are being read in the shade, Kansas city 93, 98 degrees in St. Louis, 95 degrees in Springfield. And then we -- we have this thing called the feels-like factor, where you couple in the humidity. You know how it is. If it's more humid out, it just a lot feels hotter. Well, this is what it feels like in St. Louis, 105. It feels like 109 in Memphis right now. So, this is dangerous heat. And you're just going to want to take it easy outside and just try not to go outside.

And overnight low temperatures tonight aren't going to fall all that much. So, you know, if you don't have air conditioning, it's just a tough go for sure.

Tomorrow, 99 degrees in St. Louis. So, we don't break the heat at all. We might break it a little bit across the Northeast, but not until after tomorrow. It will 93 in New York. It will 93 degrees in Washington, D.C., 91 degrees in Atlanta and 100 degrees in Dallas, pumping up to 115 in Phoenix, and all sorts of records as far as the stretch of heat has been concerned across parts of Las Vegas and also across parts of Arizona.

All right. Let's talk a little bit about what's going on in the tropics. We talked about what happened to Emily. So, let's see what's happening right now. Well, we have got a couple of impressive satellite -- satellite pictures showing two storms -- well, waves, tropical waves, one across the Bahamas. And this one looks really mean. Actually, the National Hurricane Center is more concerned with this one.

And a recon -- a reconnaissance aircraft is in there this afternoon. We'll know more about that system tonight. Unfortunately, this one is real close to the U.S. already. So, we're going to have to kind of ramp up quickly if it is upgraded to a tropical storm. We won't know that until later today.

I'm Rob Marciano. That's a quick weather update.

More of CNN LIVE FROM after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com