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Bombing Suspect Could Have Been Arrested Earlier, U.S. Says; Nine More Arrested in Botched Bombings; NASA Suspends Future Shuttle Launches; IRA Announces End to Armed Struggle; American Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Aired July 28, 2005 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: Missed opportunity. Did British authorities ignore a lead from America? The arrest of a suspect believed to have ties to the London bombings raises new questions now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All acts of terrorism targeting the civilians are faram (ph), forbidden in Islam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Faith and a fatwa. Will Islamic extremists listen to American Muslims? An imam joins us to talk about the religious ruling.

American astronauts make it aboard the space station but will this be the last flight for NASA's shuttle?

From CNN center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

Missed opportunity or miscommunication? Whatever the reason, authorities now say they've made a crucial arrest in Zambia. They've picked up a British born citizen suspected of involvement in the London transit attacks. He's also wanted by U.S. officials.

CNN's Kelli Arena has been working this story with her sources. She's got the new information on this developing story -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, according to both U.S. and Zambian officials, Haroon Rashid Aswat is in custody in Zambia. Several officials say that there are very high-level and very delicate negotiations going on right now concerning who will get access to him and when.

Now, the British want him in connection with the July 7 bombings. Those killed 52 people. Sources say that British investigators believe that he provided some sort of support to the bombers.

Now, U.S. investigators also have an interest in him in connection with a plot to set up a jihad training camp in Bly, Oregon. Sources tell us that there is a sealed arrest warrant for Aswt in the southern district of New York. But here's the clincher, Kyra. U.S. officials say that Aswat was well within their grasp about a month before the London bombings, but the British did not allow them to take him into custody.

Now, those sources tell us that Aswat was under surveillance in South Africa. They say the U.S. wanted to render him back to the United States, but because he's a British citizen, the Brits said no. But just about four weeks later London was attacked and 52 people died.

Back to you.

PHILLIPS: Kelli, when you put this all together and there's this talk about missed opportunity, miscommunication, we saw what happened during 9/11 and all the various intelligence agencies not talking to each other and not sharing information. Does it look like that is what has happened here between now Americans, British, other intelligence sources across the country?

ARENA: Well, you know, hindsight is always 20/20, and there are a lot of people that said even if everything went right pre-9/11, that there was probably no way that they were ever going to completely avoid those attacks.

Whether or not this person was pivotal, I think the investigation needs to go on further. Some sources have described him as a possible mastermind. Others have said, "Whoa, wait. That's way too premature. We think that he might have just provided money or logistical support to the bombers."

No one knows exactly what role, if any -- remember, those are allegations against Aswat, so nobody knows exactly what role, if any, he played in the bombings. That has to be sorted out.

And, you know, you can go back and look at history all you want. The fact is it happened but he was within their grasp. Lots of legal issues and political issues when you're talking about rendering versus extradition, Kyra, so, you know, there are layers and layers and layers to those stories.

PHILLIPS: And now the interrogation begins. Kelli Arena, thank you so much.

ARENA: You're welcome.

PHILLIPS: Meanwhile, the dragnet tightens in Britain. Police have made nine new arrests in the attempted attacks of July 21, including one of the would-be bombers. But three suspected bombers remain at large amid verbal visual warnings that they weren't B-team amateurs. Here's an x-ray of one of the unexploded bombs carrying a lethal payload of nails.

CNN's Jon Mann brings us an update now from London -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, let me share that chilling image with you. That was an extraordinary find by the police. Have a look at it. This is a plastic bottle of the kind you could find at any supermarket filled with explosives, cables, detonator cables coming out the top and then tacks or nails fixed to the bottle with plastic wrap around it, tacks or nails that would turn into shrapnel if and when this device was exploded.

It was not. It was left behind by the first set of bombers the day that they took 52 lives and subsequently found by police. But it gives you a sense of just how frightening these men are and have been.

Now as you mentioned, more arrests in the effort to track down the bombers, who are still at large. Tooting, a neighborhood in southern London, was the scene early today. A predawn raid in two different sites in Tooting. Nine men were taken. They are not believed to be among the principal targets of the investigation. None of the nine are believed to be the bombers who are still on the loose, but police are hoping that they can add more information to the investigation.

There is no way to overestimate just how big this is. Thousands of police officers are working this case, some on protective duty in the subways and trains, the largest deployment of that in the history of British public transit. But also, an awful lot of officials here in Scotland Yard, and the man who's in charge here, Sir Ian Blair, described the effort under way this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIR IAN BLAIR, COMMISSIONER, LONDON METROPOLITAN POLICE: The greatest operational challenge the Metropolitan Police service has faced since the Second World War, and I genuinely believe that to be the case. It therefore is the largest ever investigation that the police have ever mounted. And that was at 7/7. At 21/7, of course, it got even larger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Twenty different people are now being held for questioning. Only one of them is believed to have been one of the principal figures in the botched bombings exactly one week ago today. But the police are still looking for the three other men who took part that day and no one knows how many more people who may be involved in whatever network exists in this country that may be planning more attacks -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Jon Mann live from Scotland Yard. Thank you.

And CNN is committed to providing the most reliable coverage of news that affects your security. Stay tuned to CNN for the latest information day and night.

First a slow motion somersault in space. Not shuttle commander Eileen Collins showing off her aerobatic talent. It's actually to show off Discovery's delicate underbelly to cameras aboard the space station.

Although this move was planned months ago it took on new importance after another incident of falling foam. Discovery's crew is in no apparent danger, we're told, but NASA's shuttle program is grounded.

Our Miles O'Brien has the latest now on the renewed scrutiny. Of course, we hear that it's grounded, Miles, and we wonder about the future.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: Yes, lots of big questions today, Kyra.

Yesterday we were talking about the possibility of damage to the tiles and whether that would be a risk to the crew. Today the real story is the risk to the program itself.

Now, we saw this piece of debris after launch. I want to roll this tape. You've seen it a couple of times now. Take a look down here in this section of your screen there, and that was unclear at launch date precisely what it was. Well, the engineers have combed through that imagery as well, as some other images we haven't seen, and have come to the conclusion that it is a very large piece of debris which, as you can clearly see in this case, Kyra, went straight down and stayed clear of the orbiter. No damage caused to this portion of the orbiter, which is what we would be concerned with. This is, of course, the location where the debris struck Columbia on the leading edge of the wing.

So that's the good news. If it had fallen off about 40 seconds earlier, as it did in the case of Columbia, it might very well have been a repeat scenario.

We've put together an animation to give you a little better sense of what we're talking about here. This area down here as you're looking down is the place they call the PAL ramp and these are a series of cable trays and this is a liquid hydrogen line. As you go along here there is a little foam wedge that is designed here to keep aerodynamics going. A little piece from that section came out.

And the key thing to point out here is we are upstream of the orbiter. The wing is down this way and anything that falls off in this area is serious trouble.

There's also some pieces that fell off in this area, the so- called bipod ramp and that was the area where the big piece from Columbia left off, and a lot of redesign effort went into this.

Take a look at this picture that the crew shot with a handheld video camera shortly after they jettisoned that tank. And watch -- look at that. Look what's passing in the middle there. What is that piece of debris? Not anything necessarily that clearly did not strike the orbiter, but nevertheless, more proof that there was a lot of things that were shedding off of that external fuel tank as it made its way up towards space.

This is not what NASA had intended. They had vowed to eradicate big pieces of foam from falling off, and today they're pretty much back at ground zero on some specific cases of redesigning that fuel tank.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN SHANNON, FLIGHT OPERATIONS: And as everybody that's come up here in the last two days have sas is we were wrong and we missed something. And we have to go figure out what it was and go fix it. Whether that's just changing techniques or a redesign, we don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: And redesign is a key word here. When you start talking about redesign, nothing happens quickly in space.

Take a look at that pirouette move. This is five times animation just to give you a sense of it a little faster and really a spectacular picture, isn't it?

And what they were really looking for, though, is some key places up there where there's some indication of a little bit of damage. Using a 400 mm lens and an 800 mm lense, the crew performing flawlessly. And really the orbiter -- we should underscore this point -- appears to be safe and sound for re-entry.

We asked the lead flight director if this was a distraction to his team or for that matter to the crew in general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANNON: We don't have the luxury of sitting around and thinking about what does this mean to the program or what are we going to do after 114? We're still in the middle of living 114 and that by itself is pretty effective at keeping the team's focus.

And we have trained enough that the team is very good at tuning out things like that. Or various other things that would distract you, say, back in the office doing office work. And we're plugged in and on the job. It's all about manned spaceflight. It's all about taking care of Eileen Collins and her crew.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: No one in NASA is saying this is the end of the space shuttle program. Way too early to say that, but nevertheless it seems evident it's going to be quite some time before another space shuttle launch will occur, so just as NASA celebrated a return to flight, another return to flight they hope lies on the horizon -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Miles O'Brien, thank you so much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam are betraying the teachings of the Quran and the prophet Muhammad.

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Faith in a fatwa. American Muslims stand up against terror. A religious ruling denouncing extremism. Will their message have an impact?

Also ahead...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So when people say you cure gays, what is your answer?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't cause it. I don't cure it.

PHILLIPS: This man runs a camp and claims he helps gays and lesbians give up homosexuality. A teenager who went there speaks out.

And next on LIVE FROM, can echinacea cure or prevent colds? New research on whether the herb can curb your next bouts of the sniffles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Medical news and a bitter pill for the makers of a popular herbal remedy, echinacea. A study in today's "New England Journal of Medicine" shows the supplement has exactly zero effect on preventing the common cold or treating existing colds. Still, researchers found echinacea generally safe for those true believers.

Now, if you've ever gotten a good crack in the head, you know, it happens to all of us here in B control, when we're not listening to each other. We just kind of hit each other with a line drive. But that's another story.

Talk about Matt Clement and the Boston Red Sox. You saw what happened to him on the mound. Take a look at this. How can you forget? You've probably already seen it. He's on the mound and he got drilled by a hot line drive that gave team doctors in the whole stadium quite a fright.

But great news: Clement is a little groggy and a little whiplashed but he somehow managed to avoid a serious injury. Lucky? You better believe it. Here's CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as we look at that video over and over again it's hard to believe but actually Clement was lucky because where this ball actually hit him in the skull, the biggest concern as you watch this video is that it could have caused some bleeding on top of the brain or it could have caused a significant skull fracture, as well.

But let me show you on the skull exactly what happened here. It appears that the ball -- he actually turned his head a bit and the ball hit him back here behind the ear. And that is good for one reason, and that is that this is a very thick part of the skull. Had it hit him closer to the temple or on top of the head he may have had bleeding on top of his brain and that would have been a more significant problem. What we're hearing now is that he's had two CAT scans, both of which were normal or negative, as we say in the medical world, and he's gone home.

He may not be completely out of the woods yet. Some things you have to watch out for over time are the symptoms of a concussion. Now, people believe that concussion means that you got knocked out. That's not necessarily true. You could have had a concussion and have some of these more subtle symptoms such as confusion, headaches, nausea, loss of memory, ringing in the ears. They'll certainly be observing him for that over the next several days, I'm sure.

Also, a lot of people have asked this question: how fast exactly was that ball going when it hit him? I talked to a lot of people about this. And no one can tell you for sure. It depends in part what kind of pitch was actually thrown ,because different pitches lead to different speeds off the bat.

We did find one thing that was pretty conclusive, and that is there is a difference between wooden bats and aluminum bats. With a wooden bat, for example, the average speed is going to be about 86 miles an hour and 2 percent only of the hits going over 100 miles an hour. Aluminum bat,the average is 93 miles per hour, 37 percent of the hits over 100 miles an hour.

Needless to say, again, as we look at that video, that it looked like it was going very fast and it probably hurt quite a bit. He's probably going to have a goose egg but maybe nothing more than that. Clement was lucky in this case, but he will certainly need to be observed for a couple more days. We'll keep you posted.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: And don't forget: we have a doctor in the house even on the weekends. Watch CNN Saturday and Sunday mornings at 8:30 Eastern for all the latest medical news on "HOUSE CALL WITH DR. SANJAY GUPTA." This week's topic: a reality check on ADHD.

Straight ahead, will terrorists listen to a message from American Muslims? Islamic scholars speak out against bombings in the name of Islam. We're going to talk with one of those scholars, just ahead.

And gay to straight? We're going to take you to a church camp where counselors say your homosexuality is against God's will.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: So how do you say fatwa in Gaelic? Today the leadership for the Irish Republican Army issued a statement formally ordering an end to the IRA's armed campaign. After nearly a century of riots, bombings, kidnappings, could the end of the troubles in Ireland actually be at hand?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Peace and violence cannot co-exist in Northern Ireland and all who care about peace and stability look forward to these final actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: CNN's Robin Oakley now with more on the announcement and the possible motivations behind it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At last Tony Blair has what he has sought from the IRA, an act of closure, a promise to put the armed struggle behind it and to concentrate in future purely on democratic means to achieve a republican united Ireland.

The question will be in the verification. The IRA refused to have photographic evidence of its decommissioning of arms back in December. Now it says it will have the arms dumping observed by a Catholic and a Protestant clergyman. The question is whether that will be enough to satisfy Ulster unionists.

The unionists say that the IRA's actions are not transparent enough. They want more assurances that criminal activity in communities by IRA volunteers, such as punishment beatings, protection rackets, will end, as well as any other form of violence.

For his part, Tony Blair has made clear that Ulster unionist politicians will be expected after a due interval to observe the IRA's actions as well as its words to join in power sharing in Northern Ireland's political institutions.

Robin Oakley, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: The headlines this hour. Another London terror suspect in custody. He's a 30-year-old British national arrested and being held in Zambia. Haroon Rashid Aswat is believed to have ties to the July 7 bombers. Those attacks killed 52 commuters.

The current shuttle mission will be the last, for awhile anyway. NASA engineers suspended all planned launches while they focus on the falling foam incidents of the past two shuttle flights. The NASA administrator insists the problem will be fixed before any shuttle flies again.

And it's the last order of congressional business before the summer break. House members will likely vote this evening on a six- year, $286 billion highway measure. Written in there new roads, bridges, bus terminals and bike trails. It's expected to pass the House overwhelmingly. The Senate also expected to vote by week's end.

(STOCK REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We often hear claims Muslims don't condemn terrorism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that Islam condones violence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Muslims we want to state clearly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That those who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam are betraying the teachings of the Quran and the prophet Muhammad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Muslims taking a stance against those who kill in the name of Islam. The Free Council of North America issued this fatwa, which is a legal opinion or ruling by an Islamic scholar.

Since Islam has no central authority, Muslims can pay attention to it or not. In this case, at least 130 major Muslim organizations already have signed on.

Well, among the scholars endorsing this fatwa, Imam Yahya Hendi. He's the imam of the Islamic Society of Frederick, serves as Muslim chaplain at Georgetown University.

It's a pleasure to have you, imam.

IMAM YAHYA HENDI, ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF FREDERICK: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about this fatwa. And I'm just curious: will insurgents, will extremists listen to this fatwa and pay attention to it?

HENDI: You know, I do have hope. I do have hope that someone who was manipulated into extremism and terrorism would hear this fatwa. But I also hope that this, if it does not change the mind of terrorists, it will change the minds of youngsters, men and women, who have been manipulated into extremism and into terrorism.

It is an opportunity for us scholars and imams to say no more in my name. Islam does not accept suicide bombings. Islam will not condone suicide bombings, and, yes, I'm very optimistic that someone will hear.

PHILLIPS: And let's talk about how the Quran has been distorted in so many ways. And you and I came to an agreement about two verses in particular. One, first of all, from the Quran, Chapter 5:32, makes it very, very clear that killing someone is a crime. It's not -- it's not a sign of martyrism.

HENDI: Absolutely. This is a very important verse for us Muslim scholars that we always use to speak against terrorism and extremism. For us to bring about life to one soul, to one human being, whether he or she is a Muslim or a non-Muslim is as if we brought about life to all the peoples of world.

And to kill one soul, whether a male, female, man or woman, Muslim or non-Muslim, it would be as if one has killed all humanity and all human beings, and therefore, for us, Islam and the Koran and our beloved prophet Muhammad also speak about peace for all and justice for all human beings.

PHILLIPS: And Imam Hendi, when talking to extremists, and they do cite the Koran, a lot of times you see them bring up chapter nine, verse five, fight them wherever you see them. Will you explain to me how this is being completely manipulated by extremists?

HENDI: Well, it's easily to manipulate a sentence or verse from the Koran when taken out of context, very much like people of other faiths have manipulated their own scriptures to condone bombings of abortion clinics. Islam does allow Muslims in very strict circumstances to fight in self-defense and only in self-defense. There is a verse in the Koran that says, "Only fight those who fight against you, and do not transgress, as God loves not the transgressors.

In the early history of Islam, Muslims were persecuted one after the other, and after 13 years of peaceful resistance to that persecution, Muslims were told, yes, you can fight those who fight in the battlefield against you, but do not transgress. For me, this is an important version for me to use, for our authorities to use, to fight the terrorists wherever we find them. For me, this verse does not mean to go out and kill civilians but rather to fight terrorists wherever we may find them and to bring them to justice.

PHILLIPS: That's an excellent point. You can take those exact verses, you can take the one about fighting them wherever you see them from chapter 9:5, and the other one you mentioned and say, we can read the Koran, we can take this and have the right to kill all extremists.

HENDI: You know, I would like to bring the extremists to justice. I would like to reform their minds, and hearts and souls. If the only solution is to kill them, let it be. But is there any other way by which we can bring this phenomenon to an end, yes, I believe there is. Our ability to transform minds, souls and hearts is number one solution for me.

PHILLIPS: We definitely have to talk about this more. We have to talk about how the Muslim community, and imams like you, are stepping out especially here in America and overseas, and saying we've got to condemn the distortion of Islam. We've got to condemn extremism.

HENDI: Absolutely.

PHILLIPS: So coming forward like this, instead of responding after something happens, you're being very proactive. It's preventive maintenance in many ways, but how do you keep it going? It's wonderful to see all of you come out and issue this fatwa, but there's got to be more, don't you agree? HENDI: No doubt. I believe the more you do something, the more you realize that you need to do more. There is nothing called an end to this work. I believe we need to engage our educators. We need to engage our journalists. We need to engage Muslim clergy around the world. We need to engage our youth. We need to engage universities. There are many things that we need to do to bring this phenomenon to an end.

PHILLIPS: Imam Hendi, stay with me one moment. I just want to give your viewers a chance to see this PSA that you have put together in full, and hopefully, everybody will get a chance to see it worldwide. Here it is:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We often hear claims Muslims don't condemn terrorism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that Islam condones violence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Muslims, we want to state clearly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That those who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam are betraying the teachings of the Koran and the Prophet Muhammad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We reject anyone of any faith who commits such brutal acts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And will not allow our faith to be hijacked by criminals.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Islam is not about hatred and violence. It's about peace and justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Imam Yaha Hendi, we appreciate your time today. We salute your efforts, along with all the other imams and leaders.

HENDI: Thank you. Well, let me tell you this and tell the American people, my fellow citizens, that we are on board with every American citizen. We are a part of the fight, and we will win it, because I do know that the voices of sanity and peace will prevail.

PHILLIPS: Well, we don't want to see any more innocent people die. Thank you, imam.

HENDI: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, it's hard to think of suicide bombers taking a day off to run out of the country for some whitewater rafting, but that's exactly what these terrorists behind the July 7th bombings did in London. Why? Matthew Chance rides the wave in search for answers. And later, if you've ever lost your cool while on the phone with one of those computerized voice thingies -- oh, yes, you know we all have, come on -- well, do not miss, I repeat, do not miss the end of this hour of LIVE FROM. We're going to press nine for more options, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: On the trail of terrorists, it's taken investigators from neighborhoods in and around London to the U.S. and Africa, even a wild river in North Wales. What part, if any, did it play in the recent attacks in Britain?

CNN's Matthew Chance and photographer Griolo (ph) brave the rapids for answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For thousands, it's an adrenaline charged, but innocent adventure, nothing more. So why this ride through the rapids at the Welsh valleys was chosen as a day out for London's bombers is a mystery. It's known at least two were photographed here, Mohammed Sadique Kahn and Shahzad Tanweer, the July 7 bombers of the Edgware Road and Aldgate train stations.

But the rafting center in this remote patch of rural Britain, the director told me he and his staff remember little of the men who went on to kill. They were just faces, he says. Among 80,000 visitors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very much face (ph) of. They would have come along. And once they got to the center, they would meet their guides. They would get fitted up in helmets, pontiers (ph) or PFPs, wet suits. And about a 15-minute safety brief. Followed by a two- hour rafting session. If they stopped for a cup of tea afterwards, they would have been onsite for around three hours, really, that's about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has everyone got a hand on a handle?

CHANCE: But it is known they came in a group. Police are investigating whether the July 21 bombers were here as well. Reports have circulated in the British media that fliers from the center being found in their unexploded backpacks. Staff told us they have no record of any named suspects in that attack. Having come, it would be an unlikely place, they say, to hatch a plan.

(on camera): Well, these are the rapids the bombers came down just a month before they carried out their London attacks. The big question is why did they come here so soon before? Was it some kind of weird team-building corporate style exercise? Or maybe a last bit of fun, a bit of adrenaline before the attacks took place.

(voice-over): Some who've made bomber psychology their expertise say it's the very fact the London cells appeared so normal, so British that makes them such a chilling threat. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The troubling finding we have is that people who do these dreadful things are not as different from the rest of us as we would like. What seems to take them down this path is a conviction, a belief, a grievance. And in a social process, which transforms them into being capable of doing a deed.

CHANCE: And what part, if any, these rapids played remains a fascination here. A single strand to help explain why so many were killed and injured by them.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Bala.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Once again, great peace, and thanks to our Matthew Chance and photographer Rod Griolo for braving those rapids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: The teenage years are a time of discovery, often challenging, sometimes confusing. For gay teens it can be even moreso. Now some parents are looking to a camp that claims to help them gay teens go straight, but at what cost?

CNN's Deborah Feyerick has that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) .

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Memphis, Tennessee, home to the blues, Elvis, some 2,000 churches and one program that claims to help gay and lesbian teenagers give up homosexuality.

(on camera): How many teens are here at any given time?

REV. JOHN SMID, LOVE IN ACTION: We have had anywhere from two to six at any given time in the youth program. One of the reasons, of course, as you have experienced...

FEYERICK (voice-over): It's called Refuge. And it's run by Reverend John Smid as part of a larger program, Love in Action.

(on camera): So, when people say you cure gays, what's your answer?

SMID: I don't cause it, I don't cure it, I don't create it. There's no way I can cure gays. There isn't a cure for homosexuality. What we find is, there is an opportunity to learn how to live responsibly, even with homosexual attractions or desires.

FEYERICK: But that's not the way 18-year-old Ben Marshall first saw it. Last summer, his parents told him he was going, whether he liked it or not.

BEN MARSHALL, LOVE IN ACTION GRADUATE: I was just so angry that my parents weren't accepting who I thought I was and that they were sending me to get fixed. I told all my friends they were sending me to straight camp.

FEYERICK: Religion has always been a big part of Ben Marshall's life. He was raised Southern Baptist. His parents were strict. Dating wasn't allowed. Then, last year, Ben told friends he was gay.

B. MARSHALL: It was surprising to me how much -- people just flocked to me after I came out and how all these people that I considered untouchable, as far as popularity was concerned, wanted to hang out with me now.

FEYERICK: Three months later, the boy who had never dated anyone was with his first serious relationship with a high school senior. It was short. It was painful and Ben wondered whether it was right.

B. MARSHALL: And that became my identity, was just Ben the homosexual. I liked the attention that I got from that.

FEYERICK: His parents, Sharon and Larry, didn't like it at all.

LARRY MARSHALL, FATHER OF BEN: I had had enough as a parent, and I felt that, with my beliefs and with my rights, that this is the way it's going to be.

FEYERICK: Sharon packed up the family camper, leaving Pensacola, Florida, driving Ben eight hours to Tennessee.

SHARON MARSHALL, MOTHER OF BEN: And I said, OK, Lord, we're going to go to Memphis.

FEYERICK: In Memphis, they met program director Reverend Smid. Married 16 years, he renounced his own homosexuality two decades ago after attending a similar program. At Refuge, there is no touching, no flashy clothes. Teens and young adults study scripture, attend group therapy, pray and keep journals, what they call moral inventories.

SMID: When they express things that have gone on internally, and they find other people have shared those thoughts or feelings, it actually releases the shame.

FEYERICK: Yet others say the opposite is true.

DR. JACK DRESCHER, AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION: It increases their feeling of shame. It increases their feeling of failure. It makes them feel worse about themselves when they're done.

FEYERICK: Dr. Jack Drescher has written a book on homosexuality and psychoanalysis. He says programs like Love in Action are misguided.

DRESCHER: It offers the possibility that somehow homosexuality is a result of not being religious enough, not having enough faith, and if you just increase your faith, then that should help the homosexuality go away, which would be nice, I suppose, if that were true. FEYERICK: Not being religious enough certainly wasn't true for evangelical Christian Brandon Tidwell. In the summer of 2002, he spent three months at Love in Action's adult program.

BRANDON TIDWELL, LOVE IN ACTION GRADUATE: I was at a place of such desperation, believing that the only alternative was to not be gay, not being able to see things from a different perspective that I see it from now. And so it was, in my opinion, the last and only attempt to get fixed.

FEYERICK: But something else happened instead.

TIDWELL: I realized, quite quickly, that I could be a person of faith and embrace who God had made me to be.

FEYERICK: Tidwell, a trained social worker, is critical of Love in Action's counselors. Only one is licensed. Last month, state agencies began investigating after a teenager entering the program described his feelings of depression on a Web log. Reverend Smid is confident the state will find nothing wrong. But the blog struck a chord with Ben Marshall.

B. MARSHALL: There was one comment that he made about, if he did come out fixed on the other side, he was going to be so depressed and emotionally unstable. That was what I kept telling my parents, so...

FEYERICK: Yet, not only did Ben survive the initial two-week program. He stayed eight months.

B. MARSHALL: There is that lust that's still there. It's subsiding. I don't know that it will ever go away altogether. But it's not nearly as strong as it used to be. I don't go to the same places in my head that I used to.

FEYERICK: Asked if he's gay?

B. MARSHALL: I have trouble with the word gay, period, because that is a label, and I don't necessarily think anyone is clearly heterosexual or homosexual.

FEYERICK: Before Love in Action, Ben planned to go to New York to study journalism. Now he's part of a church group and plans to study psychology in Memphis, with an eye towards theology and a seminary. As for a wife and children:

B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now.

FEYERICK: Texas-born Brandon Tidwell is also staying in Memphis. He goes to church regularly with his new boyfriend and trains young people to become community leaders.

TIDWELL: I have never felt more true to myself, more true to my community, more true to my family and to my relationship with God than I do now.

FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Memphis, Tennessee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, it's all happened to just about all of us, and usually it gets taped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help, help, help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Heeding your cries for help with the frustrations of automated phone systems.

Jeanne Moos dials up some trouble, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, it's all happened to just about all of us. And usually, it gets taped.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help, help, help!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Heeding your cries for help with the frustrations of automated phone systems. Jeanne Moos dials up some trouble, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Pretty cool pictures just in from NASA. You're actually seeing the shuttle crew here looking out the window as they're headed to the International Space Station. They've already actually connected and gone through the hatch, but these are the pictures that we're just getting in since it happened a couple of hours ago. It takes a while to get the video in and we're able to show you.

But anyway, the shuttle here, you're seeing, headed to the International Space Station. And then it finally did dock with the International Space Station and you saw everybody coming through the hatch. I think it's coming up. And you'll see them greeting each other for the first time, believe it or not, since 2002.

Now, there was something else that happened, too, as you know we've been talking about it. And that is, NASA is still trying to determine how a dangerous piece of foam fell off Discovery's external fuel tank during its ascent into orbit. And as Miles was telling us earlier -- there's a shot from mission control -- that, you know, although the crew is not in danger, NASA did announce it's put all future shuttle missions on hold until the falling foam problem can be solved.

Meanwhile, though, these are the pictures as the crews connected there at the International Space Station, greeting each other with hugs and cameras and great pictures.

Anyway, coming up in the second hour of LIVE FROM, reading suspects their Miranda Rights has been the law of the land for almost 40 years, but some convictions may be overturned after some botched readings of the warning. That story and all the news of the day coming up soon.

Well, first, frustration on the phone. We've all dealt with it. You dial the number. You wind up with a list of options and end up with an operator who is not even human, right? Well, it's enough to make you want to commit phone rage.

Our Jeanne Moos tries to hold her telephone temper in check.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's an option people who hate automated voices can only dream of...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Press one if you'd like to murder the operator.

MOOS: After all, there's nothing more human than getting enraged over not being able to talk to a human. This is an actual call...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't believe I'm talking to this stupid robot. I want to talk to a human being, God damn it.

MOOS: They may sound like 911 calls...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help. Help. Help.

MOOS: But all they want rescued from is the interactive voice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What can I get you?

MOOS (on camera): A drink!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't stand them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are such a pain in the butt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate it.

MOOS (on camera): Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't talk to a human being. You've got to go through 20 different things just ask one simple question.

MOOS (voice-over): And to add insult to injury...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can never understand me.

MOOS: But at least they know how to apologize...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry we're having so much trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mistake again.

MOOS: The computer takes the blame even if it's the caller's fault. Misspelling Peoria, for instance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: P-I-A -- Now, can I talk to a person!

MOOS: Being a virtual operator means always having to say you're sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm really sorry. Hey, I'm sorry. , try telling me your ten digit account number once more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you do that one more time. Just sound a little more sorry.

MOOS: Meet Jenny from Yahoo. Not to be confused with...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Julie, Amtrak's automated agent.

MOOS: Actually Yahoo Jenny is really actress Deborah Eliezer, who jokes about what she'd rather be saying to callers...

DEBORAH ELIEZER, VOICE OF "YAHOO JENNY": You look great in those pants today. Just to be able to say something like that would be so funny.

MOOS: And maybe folks wouldn't swear at her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when I said 'shit' and it goes, "sorry, do not recognize that command.'

MOOS: Experts like Professor Clifford Nass, author of "Wired for Speech," say the worst thing callers can do is get mad.

PROF. CLIFFORD NASS, AUTHOR: Their voice changes in ways that make it harder to understand. So, now the system has an even tougher time, which makes the person even madder. So, you get in a hideous downward spiral.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said no, no, n-o, n-o.

MOOS: These calls you've been hearing are from an airline. Professor Shri Narayanan of the University of Southern California's speech analysis lab, is studying 1400 recordings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to speak with a human being, please.

MOOS: He is developing a computer program that can recognize when a caller is upset.

PROF. SHRI NARAYANAN, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: Here you see, you know -- You also see these wild pitch variations.

MOOS: The program analyzes, pitch, volume and certain words to determine when to turn the caller over to a live person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, my name is Fred.

MOOS (on camera): Are you real?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was when I woke up this morning.

MOOS (voice-over): There's even a Web site that gives tips on how to find a human; how to go around the interactive voices at various companies, though the tips didn't always work...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which would you like?

MOOS (on camera): Agent, agent, agent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that you said you wanted reservations.

MOOS (voice-over): Try telling directly assistance you want this town in Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What city or borough?

MOOS (on camera): Knockemstif, Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's North Armstead, Ohio -- right?

MOOS (voice-over): Even a live operator had trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What city was the city ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

MOOS (on camera): Knockemstif.

(voice-over): Other tip from experts: Try to speak naturally.

NASS: Trying to say like "this is what I meant" makes it hard to understand; trying to neutralize you accent in some strange or bizarre way.

MOOS: Jenny from Yahoo sounds pretty strange herself.

ELIEZER: Oh, my God. You've got more than 50 messages. MOOS: One Valentine's day, National Public Radio invented a romance between flight information guy Tom and Amtrak Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you also a little lonely? Please say yes or no. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

MOOS: Though it didn't end well...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Call me back when you can act like a human being.

MOOS: What do automated voices have over real voices? The head of a speech recognition company called Nuance explains...

CHUCK BERGER, CEO, NUANCE: and it saves a lot of money. Instead of three to five dollars a call, it's 15 to 20 cents a call.

MOOS: ATMs were once despised, now they're loved. Maybe the same thing will happen to virtual operators.

(on camera): Do you ever swear at them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just pray for them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Press three if you'd like to pray for the operator.

MOOS: Virtual operators don't have a prayer...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are full of crap!

MOOS: Of avoiding abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I talk to a person?

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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