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Pool of Siloam Uncovered; What Role Will Women's Rights Play in New Iraqi Constitution?

Aired August 11, 2005 - 14:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: In Iraq, some women are nervously watching the new constitution taking shape in their country. They feel women's rights could actually be curtailed by a constitution that is too grounded in Islamic law.
CNN's Aneesh Raman is live in Baghdad with more on the battle over women's right. Hi, Aneesh.

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, good afternoon.

The debate comes down to just a few words. Will Islam be the source or a source of Iraqi law? It's a debate that is pouring out on to the Iraqi street.

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RAMAN (voice-over): For 24 years, Saddam Hussein was a dictator, killing and torturing his own people. But when it came to women's rights, he was also one of the most progressive rulers in the Islamic world, allowing them to drive, work, divorce, vote, many of the basic liberties that women in the West enjoy.

Now an ironic twist. A Democratic Iraq would soon base its constitution on Islamic laws, and that leaves open the possibility that fundamentalists could dictate everyday life. That has women like Rend Rahim, a former Iraqi ambassador to the U.S., on the offensive.

REND RAHIM, IRAQ FOUNDATION: This is a constitution written by men for men and of men.

RAMAN: But others, like Iraqi assembly member, Dr. Amal Mousa, see religion as their way of life.

DR. AMAL MOUSA, NATIONAL ASSEMBLY MEMBER: We are descendants of (INAUDIBLE), and we want this in the law, because it's making the limits that conserve our people and our ideals, and prevent our being like society the European society.

RAMAN: If Islam becomes the sole source of law, many fear that women's rights would fall victim to interpretation, with conservative clerics deciding what's women can and cannot do. Such as what they can wear, if they can travel alone. Can women visit salons like this? Essentially making them perhaps second-class citizens in their own country by denying them the freedoms to make simple choices in their lives.

RAHIM: We are building a society in which everybody must feel that they are a part of it. Saying Islam is the primary source of legislation is going to be -- is going to exclude.

RAMAN: Mousa, on the other had, sees democracy, affording choice for an Islamic majority, choice to inject religion into law.

MOUSA: But which will it be? Or which will pass? Which will be the law? Which will be the constitution? The (INAUDIBLE) of the majority.

RAMAN: For Iraqi women, this is as big a crossroads as one could find.

RAHIM: Every individual who's engaged feels that they are making history.

RAMAN: The question for these women is, what kind of history do they want to make?

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RAMAN: And Kyra, the bigger question is what kind of history do the majority of Iraqis want to make? Are they as conservative as the Dr. Mousa or as secular as Rend Rahim? For that, we'll have to wait until the referendum, which comes by mid-October -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, Aneesh, we're going to talk more about it right now. Thank you so much.

That question of whether women's rights will be protected in the new Iraqi constitution has reached a very critical point. That deadline for the constitution is Monday.

And joining me from Washington, Zainab Salbi. She's the president and CEO of Woman for Women International, a group that helps empower women survivors of war. Great to see you.

ZAINAB SALBI, WOMEN FOR WOMEN INTERNATIONAL: Good seeing you.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, just to give a little background, I think it's fascinating that you actually started this organization back when you were 23 years old. Why did you do it?

SALBI: You know, I grew up in Iraq and I grew up with the Iran/Iraq war, and it was very much an impact on my life as I grew up. And I became interested in dealing with the plight of women in war. Women often are viewed as victims in war, but they're not viewed as a critical mass in actually building peace and in building economic and political sustainability and reconstruction process. And so that -- using my own personal narrative, I became very dedicated to all plight of women in different wars.

PHILLIPS: Now, you met with the individuals that are drawing up this contusion. Tell me about that discussion and what you told them Iraqi women want, what you want, what you think is important and the challenges you think you're going to be facing in the next couple days, weeks, months.

SALBI: Right. Well, the first thing I told them is actually what Iraqi women want. In a survey conducted by Women for Women International of the three largest cities in Iraq -- Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra -- 94 percent of the women we surveyed said they want to protect their legal rights in the constitution. This was a very clear message that that legal right is very important. That is very, very important and how to protect it.

The second thing is, we wanted equality in citizenship. This is not only for women's sake. This is for the country's sake. We simply cannot build a democratic and an economically prosperous Iraq if women -- 60 percent of its population -- are not critically involved in this process.

And the third is, it's for our future. If we don't -- if we ignore women and we leave women to be under the mercy of religious establishments, we actually lose, again, a critical mass to what could be a democratic state. We could lose women to a more fundamentals and conservative sources in the country. So it's very critical that we actually protect women's rights in the constitution, not only for women's sake, but for the country's sake.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about how you do that religiously, when it comes to Islam and the interpretation, when it comes to the role of women. Specifically, if we think about Koranic law and we want to talk about marriage, divorce, inheritance issues. What needs to be in there that is somewhat progressive, but at the same time, religiously sensitive?

SALBI: Excellent question. And the answer is based first on the fact that Islam is a major source of identity for Iraqis. So we have to acknowledge that and respect that. There are ways in which we can respect the principle of Islam, of equality and justice to all, and between women's rights according to international laws such Iraqis -- such as the ones that Iraqis asking for, such as U.N. Resolution 1325, Seda (ph), et cetera.

There are also precedents of Muslim countries that were able to preserve women's rights within an Islamic framework. Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Malaysia; to some extent, Egypt, and to a great extent, the previous Iraqi law. So there is a way to actually protect women's rights, say that it is within Islamic framework, but define what is Islam. Have the state define what is Islam. Have the state define what are women's rights. So there is a way to balance away from the black and white dynamics of either secular or religious. There is a way to meet in the middle.

PHILLIPS: I had an opportunity to interview women during the voting process. And it was exciting just to see the energy and how they reacted when they had the chance to vote, and holding up their fingers to prove that they did it with the ink. It kind of gave me a sense for how that moment in history rejuvenated this culture of women. SALBI: Absolutely. Not only the election, which -- the election, we have to remember, women were the first to line up in the election. Women were actually first to go in the streets and check the security, then ask for the men to go and join them to vote. It's not only the election, though. Right after the war, women were at the front lines say, do not forget us. Make us part of rebuilding the country.

Remember, you cannot -- we simply cannot build a sustainable Iraq, we just cannot even stabilize Iraq right now, if women are not a crucial participants in the economic prospect and in the political stabilization. So they are excited, they are clear what they want. In our survey, 80 percent of the women surveyed, they said they wanted to see women in all local and national election. They are clear, also, about what they want. There is no need not to take that away for them, not for their sake and not for the country's sake.

PHILLIPS: Zainab, I'd sure like to see you holding a role in government there in Iraq. And real quickly, I want to mention your Web site. Womenforwomen.org. You can log on this Web site for financial, emotional support for women throughout Afghanistan, Iraq, Rwanda, Nigeria. I could keep going. It's an incredible Web site. You can actually shop on that Web site and purchase things made by these women and support what they are doing overseas.

Zainab Salbi, president and CEO of Women for Women International. Thanks so much for your time today.

SALBI: Thank you so much.

PHILLIPS: My pleasure.

Straight ahead, an underground discovery with a biblical connection. You're not going to want to miss this. This ancient pool, found under the streets of Jerusalem. Well, you're going to learn about its connectives -- connection, rather, to Jesus Christ. That's just ahead on LIVE FROM.

And on the prowl with a clearly defined mission. Can Tiger Woods come out on top again? Oh, yes. We're live from the PGA Championship.

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Sibila Vargas in Hollywood. Simon Cowell gets hit with a lawsuit. And who are the best dressed men in the world? I'll have the answers when LIVE FROM continues.

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VARGAS: Hi, I'm Sibila Vargas with your entertainment news from Hollywood.

Well, the woman who played J.R.'s mother on the long-running show "Dallas" has passed away. Actress Barbara Bel Geddes died on Monday from lung cancer at her home in Maine. She was a long-time smoker. Bel Geddes won an Emmy in 1980 as best lead actress in a drama series for her role in "Dallas." The actress was also nominated for an Academy Award for best supporting actress for the 1948 drama, "I Remember Mama." Bel Geddes was 82 years old.

And some not so good news for "American Idol" judge Simon Cowell. The tell-it-like-it-is is being sued, along with the ABC network and Free Mantle Media North America. Jean Golden and Todd Walker filed a federal lawsuit alleging that ABC and Cowell stole the trademark brand "Million Dollar Idea," copied the entire premise of the show, and marketed that idea as their own.

Both Golden and Walker had already registered for both the copyright and trademark for the name and the premise of "Million Dollar Idea." The lawsuit asks for unspecified damages. ABC issued this statement, saying: "We have not even been served with a complaint in this matter, so we have no comment." And calls to Cowell and Free Mantle Media were not returned.

Well, the freelance photographer who was reportedly working for "People" Magazine has been hit with a citation after getting too close to Brad Pitt's Santa Monica -- Santa Barbara home. Twenty-three-year- old Jeffrey Weiss was cited and arrested after being spotted on the actor's property in Santa Barbara, California.

According to authorities, Weiss was carrying a pair of binoculars as he stood near a bluff that had a no trespassing sign. A Spokesperson for the "People" magazine says Weiss inadvertently trespassed. The magazine goes on to say that he regrets it and this is not in any way how the magazine does business. Weiss will be arraigned on September 8th.

And finally, who do you think is the best-dressed man in the world? Well, according to "Esquire" magazine, it's hip-hop Pharrell Williams. Others on the list include Jake Gyllenhall, Jude Law, and Kayne West. Those are my favorites. Now, for that complete list, check out the September issue of "Esquire" magazine.

And that's your news from Hollywood, but there's a lot more LIVE FROM right after this break.

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PHILLIPS: One hundred and ten golfers and counting have something in common today: They all shot better than Tiger Woods in the first round of the PGA championship. CNN's Larry Smith has the story. He's live in Springfield, New Jersey and I know this is one of his favorite assignments. He's probably dying to get out there and play. Hi, Larry.

LARRY SMITH, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, South Africa has a long, great tradition of producing great golfers: Gary Player, Nick Price, Ernie Els among them. Maybe one day you can add Trevor Immelman to that list.

The 25-year-old fired a three-under 67 today to take the early first-round lead, which he shares with Ben Curtis, the 2003 British Open champion. He hasn't won an event since winning that Grand Slam event, but Ben Curtis, in fact, this year he missed the cut a whopping 13 times on the in 16 tournaments on the PGA tour this year, but hopes that he can build on his early success here at Baltusrol.

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BEN CURTIS, TIED FOR FIRST-ROUND LEAD: I think mentally I was there. I mean, I missed a few fairways, but I got lucky and I just stayed calm and you know, didn't let those shots bother me.

TREVOR IMMELMAN, TIED FOR FIRST-ROUND LEAD: Yes. It feels great. I mean, it was great to play well. Obviously, it's, you know, extremely early in the tournament and I'm sure somebody will go out there this afternoon and shoot four or five under. So, you know, it's fantastic to have prepared well and then go out shoot a good score today. It's a great feeling.

SMITH: Well, Tiger Woods will have to really work to get into contention and make the cut on Friday. He shot -- managed just one birdie in a five-over-par 75, a round that included a double bogie on the difficult par four, seventh hole. But don't count him out just yet.

Keep in mind, back in April at the Masters, Woods opened with a round of 74 and still rallied to pick up a Grand Slam victory. Kyra, let's go back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Larry. Thank you so much. Unfortunately, Larry can't hear me. We've had some technical problems. So, we'll continue to check in with him.

Meanwhile, straight ahead: A biblical pool unearthed in Jerusalem. Does it have real ties to Jesus? I'm going to speak with the lead archaeologist working at the ancient site, next on LIVE FROM.

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PHILLIPS: Well, a sewage worker gets sent out to fix a broken line, but he ends up unearthing something with spiritual and historical significance. In the process of digging up that line, he hit something besides a pip. It turns out, he stumbled upon an ancient pool under the streets of the East Jerusalem.

Archaeologists believe it's the pool of Siloam, where according to the gospel of John, Jesus healed a blind man. No one was more excited than archaeologist Eli Shukron, who was there when the steps -- or rather he was there when the steps to the ancient pool were unearthed.

He joins me now live from Jerusalem. Eli, tell me what it felt like and what was going through your mind when you saw the steps?

ELI SHUKRON, ARCHAEOLOGIST: I was exciting. You know, 2,000 years, no one know where is the pool. And now you touch. You found it. You touch the stone. You touch the pottery. You touch the coin and it give you a great feel. PHILLIPS: And if you think about the story, you go back to the gospel of John 9:6-8 and is staid, "Jesus smeared the mud on the blind man's eyes and said to him go wash in the pool of Siloam... So the blind man went away and washed and came back seeing."

Now you say you discovered this pool. How do you think it's going to change how scholars view the Bible, Eli?

SHUKRON: I don't know if it's going to change something, but we know today exactly where it was happened and we have all the evidence, everything that we know surely that this is the place that we found now. It's a big, big pool. We're talking about one-acre pool that build like a steps that you can go into the water.

You can make it worthwhile, but you can drink in the water. We think it's not a community pool that the people came, sit together around and if you're talking about Jerusalem in the second temple period, when the pilgrim came to, this is the place that they came first to sit there, to make a ritual bath and from there, they go up to the temple.

Also we found the connection between the temple and the pool and this is give us the idea how it was there in that time.

PHILLIPS: So -- and also to match the time element, didn't you say you found some coins or there were some imprints from the coins within the walls that made that connection. Is that right?

SHUKRON: Yes, we found the coins. You can see one coin. We found a lot of coins. This coin is from the revolution between the Jew and the Roman, the war. And we can see this one of a lot of coin that we found in the excavation.

Also, we found the pottery. We found stone vase. We found a lot of evidence that give us the date of this pool and now we know exactly that this is -- what we found, this is from the second temple period; the time of Jesus and this is the pool.

And if in the New Testament, they talk about the Siloam pool, this is the Siloam pool from the second temple period and if it was a miracle, the miracle was there, nowhere else.

PHILLIPS: That's amazing. We want to thank Todd Bolin (ph) with BiblePlaces.com. He brings us these incredible pictures, Eli, of what you came across. Finally, if I come to visit or anyone else comes to visit this area, will there be a point in time where we can walk down these steps and visit this pool? How will it be preserved now?

SHUKRON: Yes. It's open to the public. We didn't finish our project there, but the people can come to see, to look, to sit there close to the water and then, feel how it was before 2,000 years -- how it was when Jesus was around there or how it was when the people came to this pool and from this area, go to the temple. They can feel it and they come and to see it.

PHILLIPS: No doubt, sense the miracle. Eli Shukron, the archaeologist who actually unearthed this famous pool Siloam. You can read about it, even in the New Testament. It's pretty incredible to see the pictures and read about. Eli, thank you so much.

That wraps up this Thursday edition of LIVE FROM. I'm Kyra Phillips at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Now, the man of the hour, Wolf Blitzer, live in THE SITUATION ROOM.

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