Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Graphic Details in BTK Sentencing Testimony; Cindy Sheehan's Protest to Move Closer to Bush Ranch

Aired August 17, 2005 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, HOST: Horrific bombings, a series of blasts with heavy casualties at a bus station and at a hospital. We're reporting from Baghdad.
And serial killer sentencing: disturbing testimony about the man known as BTK, and how he targeted his victims.

From the CNN center in Atlanta I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Kyra Phillips. CNN's LIVE FROM begins right now.

The last time the world saw BTK killer in court, he did the talking. Dennis Rader's cold, graphic testimony, describing how he murdered the victims he referred to as projects outraged and devastated their families. Now they'll soon have a chance to talk.

It's the first day of Rader's sentencing hearing and more horrible details are coming to light.

CNN's Chris Lawrence is live from Wichita, Kansas, with the latest on that -- Chris.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, they've just taken a break for lunch, but so far, Dennis Rader's almost the same as he was the last time we saw him. He's had almost no emotional reaction whatsoever, and you contrast that to some of the families sitting there in the courtroom. They have been burying their heads in their hands, crying, having to console each other, very, very emotional inside that courtroom.

Prosecutors are describing in very graphic and brutal detail some of Rader's murders, some of the earliest murders, like the Otero murders, which were his first in 1974.

At one point prosecutors were talking about how he murdered little Joseph Otero while his mother was tied up and had to watch. The agent, the federal agent who was on the stand said, "I can only imagine what she would be doing, having to watch him kill her little boy."

Now, after Rader killed the mother, at one point 11-year-old Josie Otero looked up at him and asked Rader, "What's going to happen to me?"

And Rader looked down and said, "Tonight you're going to heaven with the rest of your family."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY THOMAS, KANSAS BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: He did state that it was the first time that he had attempted to strangle people as opposed to dogs and cats, and that he was surprised as how much pressure it took and how hard it was to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE: Prosecutors are trying to show in brutal detail how cruel Rader was in some of these killings, that he was not detached and clinical, that there was cruelty involved in some of these murders.

When talking about the murder of Shirley Vian, they described how he pushed her three kids into the bathroom while she was tied up and he was preparing to kill her. He pushed the kids into the bathroom, and they screamed loudly, begging him to let their mother go, and they were distracting him. So he tossed some toys in the bathroom to calm them down.

And when one of the children threatened to escape, he told that little boy, "Don't try it, because I'll shoot you. I'll blow your head off."

Prosecutors are trying to convince the judge to sentence Rader to the maximum possibility penalty, which in this case would be life without the possibility of parole. Kansas did not have the death penalty during the years in which these crimes were committed -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Chris, how are the victims' family members holding up, given that the judge will be taking great consideration about how they're reacting to these details as to determine whether or not to continue this kind of testimony?

LAWRENCE: You know, not well. Not well. I mean, they sat there, and they had to watch pictures of their mother's strangled body. They had to watch pictures of their little sister, their 11- year-old sister strung up and hung. It is just brutal, graphic testimony, and the family is not taking it very well.

But we talked to them last night, and they were fully prepared and said, "We are going to be frustrated. We are going to be angry." But many of them felt they had to be here, and many of those same family members will be testifying tomorrow, again to also push the judge to convict -- or to sentence Dennis Rader to the maximum possibility penalty.

WHITFIELD: All right. Chris Lawrence from Wichita, Kansas, thanks so much.

For a closer look at the proceedings and the decision the judge has to make, let's turn to criminal defense attorney Jeffrey Voluck. He joins me now from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

And Jeffrey, this is a tough determination for the judge to make. Judge Waller has to determine whether or not it is plausible and feasible to continue with this kind of graphic testimony. What's the criteria he's going to be using?

JEFFREY VOLUCK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that's entirely up to the judge. In essence, no matter what sentence Mr. Rader gets, it's going to be a life sentence for him. So it really doesn't matter whether he gets 175 years or 40 years.

But this is the opportunity for the victims' families to come forth and to tell what's on their minds. You know, how much of the graphic detail the judge wants to allow, that's an individual determination that's made solely by the judge.

WHITFIELD: At the same time, it would seem these victims' families are going to be victimized again, whether it's to hear the testimony from the law enforcement officials or whether it's to themselves take the stand. Is that what the judge will be considering, as well?

VOLUCK: It's a double-edged sword. It's some closure for the family. It gives them the choice to -- gives them a chance, rather, an opportunity to tell their feelings. But at the same time, it relives -- it relives old wounds and old memories. So, you know, there's pros and cons to it.

WHITFIELD: What kind of pressure is on the judge? We're talking about a minimum of 175 years without parole. At least that is what the prosecutors are pushing for. Anything less, it would seem, the victims' families would not be happy. So how much pressure is on this judge to appease them?

VOLUCK: I think the pressure is on the judge to give the maximum penalty because of the brutality and the number of murders, but again it really doesn't matter whether Rader gets 40 years or 175 years, because at the age of 60, he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

WHITFIELD: Doesn't the basic question also seem that, given he confessed to the murders, he gave very graphic detail in court, surprising the entire courtroom, why even go through this kind of formal sentencing proceeding with all of these testimonies?

VOLUCK: I don't know the answer to that.

WHITFIELD: Does the judge have an option to eliminate these kind of formalities?

VOLUCK: Sure he does. He could make -- he could make this a ten-minute sentencing hearing if he wanted to, just hear from the district attorney as to what their feelings are and what the penalties should be, hear from the defense and then make his decision. He could really do the whole thing in 10 or 15 minutes.

WHITFIELD: And this is not a death penalty case, because the death penalty in Kansas was reinstated three years after Dennis Rader's last crime, but might the judge ever have the discretion -- might there ever be exceptions if they would be able apply the death penalty, since now the death penalty is legal in that state, even though the times took place in a different time?

VOLUCK: No, you can't -- that will be ex post facto, and you can't go back to something that wasn't at the time.

WHITFIELD: Jeffrey Voluck, thanks so much. And we'll be seeing a little bit more of you throughout the day.

VOLUCK: All right.

WHITFIELD: And more of LIVE FROM right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD (voice-over): Next on LIVE FROM...

CINDY SHEEHAN, ANTIWAR PROTESTER: This war is a mistake.

WHITFIELD: Protest relocation. The antiwar mom moves her troops closer to the president. We're live from Crawford, Texas.

Soaking up the sun: can you get addicted? New evidence revealing for some people, the rays are like a fix.

Also ahead, from Power Rangers to plotting murder, a former child actor accused of killing a wealthy couple aboard their yacht.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY SCHUSTER, CNN.COM: There's a memorial service this week for a lynching that took place here in Georgia 90 years ago, and there was a trial earlier this summer for the murder of three civil rights workers in Mississippi, more than four decades after the fact.

They're reminders that America's history of terrorism didn't begin in Oklahoma City or at 9/11. And that's the topic this week of my online column, "Tracking Terror."

If you find yourself in Washington between now and Labor Day, you can see some of this history on display at an exhibit called "The Enemy Within" at the International Spy Museum.

From the Klan on the extreme right to the Weather Underground on the far left, there are vivid reminders in this exhibit of how America has reacted and overreacted to terrorist attacks.

Is it true, as the museum's director says, that one man's patriot is another man's terrorist? What do you think?

Log on to CNN.com/TrackingTerror and send us your e-mail response.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Control B. This is more of LIVE FROM.

The woman who's been leading the protest outside of President Bush's Crawford ranch is packing up and moving, but she's not going away. In fact, Cindy Sheehan and her supporters will be closer to the president's home than ever, and her quest to meet with Mr. Bush is drawing more admiration and more anger.

CNN's Bob Franken is in Crawford, Texas, with more -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anger, actually, on both sides, Fredricka. She's moving, not today, but her and her growing, expanding camp of people who are against the war in Iraq, people are going to be moving to a friendly rancher's property, which is right adjacent to the President Bush ranch.

They had set up here a couple of miles down the road, and in the process, as it grew, they antagonized some of the neighbors, some of whom support the president's policies in Iraq. Others were just concerned that this back road in Texas was not really there to handle the kind of media attention and traffic that was going on.

And the media attention has grown, the number of people in the camp has grown. Her cause has grown. Cindy Sheehan's cause, of course has been she wanted to, as an individual who was suffering the loss of her son in Iraq, was demanding that the president get out of Iraq, take the troops out of Iraq. The president has said that he sympathizes with her, but that, A, he does not intent to do that, and B, has not announced any plans to meet her as she is demanding.

But Sheehan tells reporters in what has become a daily news conference, that she is quite, quite fascinated at how her cause has expanded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEEHAN: There are over 1,500 vigils all over the country planned for tonight, and we at Camp Casey, who have been out here sweating and getting bit by bugs, and either sweating or getting soaking wet, are so amazed and filled with love and gratitude for the overwhelming outpouring of support from all over the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And they'll be moving where it's just as hot, with just as many insects, and might I add snakes. But up the road, as I pointed out, to the property of somebody who is supportive of their cause.

And they will be holding on Friday when they hope to be in place at the new site, holding a memorial service outside President Bush's ranch. And the general secretary of the National Council of Churches has called on President Bush to go out and meet with them. Again no word from the administration that there is any plan to do that -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Bob, you mentioned and we heard from Cindy Sheehan that she is feeling very gratified that so many people have come out, but certainly did she ever think that her single protest would galvanize such a movement?

FRANKEN: Well, she really expresses at least some surprise. I should point out that her single protest now is supported at this juncture by some pretty sophisticated public relations people and various people who are in the liberal or progressive, depending on what you want to do, side of the political spectrum.

On the other side now, those who are friendly to the administration who are organizing their own protests and are paying very close attention to any claim that Cindy Sheehan makes, including the fact that this is something that she had never done before. They point out that she has been active in the antiwar movement for quite some time.

WHITFIELD: All right. Bob Franken in Crawford, Texas, thanks so much.

We heard Bob mentioning that Cindy Sheehan is hoping to meet with the president. The president has said that he sympathizes with her, but he doesn't plan to meet with her again. He already did that a year ago.

Well, apparently some women whose children have also been killed in the war in Iraq say that's a good decision, that he doesn't plan to meet with her again. One of them spoke earlier today on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAN JOHNSON, LOST SON IN IRAQ WAR: I think if he does, he's starting a whole new ball game as far as setting a precedent. If -- when she leaves, then other people are going to be wanting to meet with him if they have a disagreement about one of his policies. So I think he's just, you know, protecting himself as far as that goes by not meeting with her.

I'm not for the protest. I believe that we should stay the course. We need to be there. To me, in a way she's disgracing Casey, because Casey was over there trying to serve his country and help the Iraqi people. And by what she's doing, it's kind of taking away from the meaning of his death.

I think it does need to be fought right, but to do that we've got to stay there. People say, let's bring the guys home. Well, we bring the guys home, and then the terrorists are going to come see us here is the way I firmly believe. And because of that, my husband leaves next week to go to Iraq to join the Georgia Guard where his guys are at right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: And this programming note. Tune in today for a special edition of "ANDERSON COOPER 360" live from Crawford, Texas. "Crossroads: Battle on the Home Front" begins at 7 Eastern, 4 Pacific right here on CNN.

And it was a day of horror in the war that happens to be the center of this protest. At least 43 people were killed in Baghdad in a series of bombings that started in a bus station and then ended at the hospital where the victims were taken. The blasts were the deadliest in the Iraqi capital in weeks.

Survivors searched charred buses and cars for signs of relatives. Police and medics are among the dead, and officials say the death toll could rise. Four people have been arrested in connection with that incident.

A troubling comparison from a man who would know. Secretary of state during the Vietnam War, Henry Kissinger, says he sees similarities between the ongoing war in Iraq and the Vietnam War. He made those comments on CNN's "LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I have a very uneasy feeling that some of the same tendencies are reemerging. And we had achieved a military outcome, which was difficult but tolerable, but we then could no longer achieve the support to sustain that outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And let's look closer at that comparison. Here's Daryn Kagan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The war in Iraq has cost the United States about $200 billion so far. Adjusted for inflation, the war in Vietnam cost more that twice that, over a period of eight years. The deployment in Iraq has only been 2 1/2 years so far.

In terms of the total number of troops who have served, the Pentagon said at least a million U.S. troops have rotated either through Iraq or Afghanistan. Not yet close to the 3.4 million who served tours of duty in Southeast Asia, but given 10 years, that number could reach there.

Perhaps the figure that best shows the differences between the wars: the number of military deaths in Iraq recently climbed above 1,850. The number of U.S. troops lost in Vietnam was more than 58,000.

The one area where there is some similarity between the two wars is the domain of public opinion. Protests today are nothing like they were in the 1960s. The most recent polls on Iraq show 54 percent of Americans believe it was a mistake to send U.S. troops there. Flashback to 1968, 53 percent said they believed the U.S. made a mistake sending troops to Vietnam. That war lasted another five years after that opinion was expressed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Why did an innocent man die at the hands of police? Mistaken identity in the aftermath of the London bombings. A British television network's fascinating investigation ahead on LIVE FROM.

Israeli settlers removed from their homes. We're live from Gaza straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK REPORT)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's take a look outside. Rob Marciano is in the Weather Center -- Rob.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WHITFIELD: We're all in it together. Thanks so much, Rob.

Now in the news, a Jewish settler takes aim. Police say the Israeli shot and killed three Palestinians at the entrance to a West Bank settlement not being evacuated. Israel's prime minister calls the attack a Jewish terrorist action. The Palestinian leader wants settlers disarmed as the pullout continues. More on that live in a moment.

Likely an accident rather than an attack. The Spanish defense minister says that's how it appears after visiting the site of yesterday's military helicopter crash in western Afghanistan. All 17 Spanish soldiers on board were killed. They were serving in NATO's peacekeeping force.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com