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Bush Meets Military Families; Iraq Situation Examined; Internees Graduate

Aired August 24, 2005 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHILLIPS: A look at some stories making news right now. Just days after the Israeli government began forcing Jewish settlers to leave Gaza, officials say they've already demolished more than 700 home. That's about one quarter of the homes that were evacuated. Once the demolitions are complete, the evacuated areas will be turned over to the Palestinian Authority.
The world's largest Internet service provider has agreed to pay finds and change its policies following a probe by New York's attorney general. Investigators said America Online corporate policies encouraged customer service representatives to stall or ignore cancellation requests. AOL did not admit any wrong-doing. AOL is owned by Time Warner, the same company, as you know, that owns CNN.

A new statue of Britain's Princess Diana is sure to raise some eyebrows. It depicts the late princess with her lover Dodi Fayed and it's titled "Innocent Victims." It will be displayed at a London landmark, Harrod's Department Store, which is owned by Dodi Fayed's father Mohamed Al Fayed. He's long claimed that his son and Diana were murdered.

Well, as we reported, some of the heaviest fighting in months erupted in Baghdad today. Insurgents carried out what Iraqi police say were well -coordinated strikes against police checkpoints that killed 14 people.

The attacks come one day before Iraqi lawmakers are scheduled to vote on a controversial new draft constitution. That document has been weeks in the making because of serious issues dividing the country's three main faction, the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. Key disputes center are whether Iraq will be a federal state or a country governed by strict Islamic law.

Joining us now in Washington with his take on all this, Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution. Good to see you, Michael.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKING INSTITUTION: Thanks. Nice to be with you.

PHILLIPS: Before we get started -- because I want to talk about Islamic law versus federalism -- as you know, the president spoke to military families and members of the military in Idaho and he actually brought this up. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're arguing about the proper place of religion in the life of their nation. And like our founders, they will come up with a system that respects to the traditions of their country and guarantees the rights of all their citizens. They understand that in order to have a free democracy, you must have minority rights, the will of the majority, coupled with minority rights and human dignity and rights for women is important for a free society. They understand that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: All right. So, let's lay it out. He's talking about exactly what you and I wanted to talk about today. First of all, federalism. Let's start with that and the arguments that are being made, pro and con and your concerns with this type of government.

O'HANLON: Well, as you know, the Kurds have really been operating on their own ever since Operation Desert Storm and they have been victimized by Saddam many times and they delighted to have the chance to run their own affairs for the last 14 year and they want to keep that.

That has made the concept of autonomy very appealing and now some of the Shia in the south want it, too. By itself autonomy could be just find. However, the real problem becomes about the issue of who controls the oil and the oil revenue.

It's pretty much Iraq's only source of export earnings; 98 percent of its export money now come from oil and it appears in the new constitution what they're going to say is that any existing oil wells, the proceed from those wells will go to Baghdad and be shared throughout the country.

But any new wells that are drilled from this point onward, the rules are different and the money might be kept at the local regional government.

That runs the risk of leaving the Sunni Arabs with virtually no source of revenue, because they have no oil on the land they control. And that could, in turn, make the war -- the insurgency much worse and perhaps even lead to civil war. So, I'm very worried about this issue of how oil revenue will be shared.

PHILLIPS: And -- well, and on that note of oil revenue, when it comes to the U.S. interests and what the U.S. would support, I'm assuming you're going to say they would want federalism concerning the oil revenue.

O'HANLON: Well, I think there are a couple things. Most American strategists and classic political analysts would prefer a strong, unified Iraq. For one thing, Turkey doesn't want independent Kurdistan or anything that looks like an independent Kurdistan up north, since they have their own Kurdish secessionist movement at times.

And then secondly, we want a strong strategic buffer next to Iran in the Persian Gulf. However, I think we could live with an Iraq that became a very loose confederation if necessary, or even three independent states.

What we really cannot live with, however, is outright civil war or the Sunni-Arab part of Iraq becoming so poor and so badly governed that bin Laden and his cronies can establish essentially a new kind of Afghanistan in the Sunni-Arab part of Iraq and put al Qaeda there.

PHILLIPS: We, Iraq would just go up in smoke.

O'HANLON: It could and that could lead to higher oil prices. It could lead to any -- sort of a mockery of the basic concept we thought we were delivering to the Iraqi people: A better life for the future.

It would make the war, I think, on balance a failure, if indeed Iraq erupted into civil conflict. So, we can't see that. Whether Iraq is a confederation, a strong central republic or even three separate states -- I think, you know, we have our preferences, but we could live with any outcome as long as the outcome is achieved peacefully.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, let's talk about the role of Islam then; not federalism, but Islamic law. A lot of concerns about rights being eroded; rights for women. education for women and the court system relying on the Sharia. I mean, we should explain what that is also.

O'HANLON: Well, of course, there are relatively more absolute and more modern interpretations of Islamic law, but the old-fashioned Sharia would say that if, you know, you're caught stealing in a store, your hand is amputated, you're stoned to death for adultery, those sorts of things.

And it's also associated with the very extreme form of suppression of women's rights in which they don't have any kind of real employment opportunities outside the home and have to go about in very, very veiled outfit.

So, extreme Sharia is pretty strong stuff, but there may be ways to use some Islamic concepts, as many Islamic countries around the world do today in the legal system, without being quite that oppressive.

So, I think President Bush is probably right that the Iraqis will probably find a way to moderate that kind of law. In addition, in theory, people who don't want that sort of Islamic law applied to their own court cases, can opt for a more secular, modernist version.

But the question that occurs to me: What if the two parties to a lawsuit disagree about which kind of law to use? Who gets to choose? And that's a pretty important unanswered question.

PHILLIPS: So many gray areas. So, is there any way to take a little of one concept, a little federalism and you know, a little Islamic law and somehow meet in the middle? O'HANLON: Yes. I think so. I think President Bush is right on that. Ambassador Khalilzad is right. I'm just not sure we're going to get there. But take one example on federalism, you could say to the Kurds, "Sure, you can have your independent governance and more or less run your own affairs, but the oil from your province is forever considered a shared resource among all Iraqi people, even in the future, even the new wells that you drill, you have to share. The good news is, you also get to share the oil from down south in the Shia region."

So, I think the Kurds could be convinced to live with this. Likewise on Islamic law, you could find ways to have a somewhat softer, gentler form of Sharia. You know, there are countries like Bangladesh and Turkey and Indonesia and many others that are predominantly Muslim.

Some of them call themselves Islamic republics and still have a fairly modern feel. And so, I'm not sure Islam is incompatible with secular or modern law. There are ways, I think, to compromise and many countries have already shown us how.

PHILLIPS: Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution, thank you so much. A little positive note there in the midst of all this confusion. Thanks, Michael.

O'HANLON: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Well, straight ahead, Attempting to quiet the criticism: Pat Robertson offers an explanation of comments that he made about assassinating Venezuela's president.

And jailed in Indonesia: A young model now behind bars, accused of carrying drugs while vacationing in a popular tourist spot. That story, next on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson is claiming that his assassination comments about the president of Venezuela were taken out of context. Here's what Robertson said on Monday that caused such an outcry

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT ROBERTSON, CHRISTIAN BROADCASTER: You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, the State Department quickly went on record as saying Robertson's remarks do not represent U.S. policy. Now Robertson is saying that he didn't actually advocate assassinating Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: August is a slow news day, but it seem like the whole world is talking about my comments about Venezuelan Dictator Hugo Chavez. And that reaction followed a "CBN News" investigation into the potential danger from the South American dictator.

I said our special force shows, quote, "take him out." And take him out can be a number things, including kidnapping. There are a number of way to take out a dictator from power beside killing him. I was misinterpreted by the A.P., but that happens all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, Venezuela's vice president called Robertson's remarks criminal and called on the Bush administration to take action against him.

Well, it's an alarming trend, if indeed that's what it is, a growing number of Australians busted for drugs in Indonesia's tourist hot spots. Those convicted could be sentenced to death. CNN's Zain Verjee has the look at some recent cases and the warning from the Australian government.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): She makes her living posing for cameras, but Michelle Leslie, who models under the name Michelle Lee, did not want to show her face this time. She was detained on the resort island of Bali on Saturday, after police raided a dance party.

Officials say they found two ecstasy tablets in her Gucci bag. If charged and convicted, the 24-year-old Australian could face a maximum of 15 years in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've spoken to Miss Leslie directly and she's holding up as best she can in the attended circumstances.

VERJEE: With surprise raids and on-the-spot drug tests, one after another young Australians travelling in Indonesia have been nabbed by police and accused of drug possession.

Twenty-one-year-old teacher Graham Payne was arrested on Saturday for allegedly having more than 2,000 ecstasy pills on him. He could be sentenced to death by firing squad if he's convicted.

Eight Australian men and one woman, known as the Bali Nine, are set to go on trial next month for allegedly trying to smuggle heroin out of Indonesia.

In a case that got enormous attention, Australian Shapelle Corby was sentenced to 20 years in prison in May for smuggling marijuana into Bali. Indonesia authorities insist they are not targeting Australians in their drug raids, saying, instead, "Those who violate our anti-drug laws, whatever their nationality, will be treated equal before the law." Australian officials acknowledge the tough Indonesian drug laws and are warning their citizens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going into Asia with drugs, being in possession of drugs in Asia or trafficking drugs in and out of Asia or between countries in Asia is an enormously serious criminal offense.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: All right. So, the question is: Is there a trend? It seems like there is.

VERJEE: It certainly seems so. I mean this all started -- at least got the glare and the attention of the media, Kyra, with Shapelle Corby.

You'll remember back in May, she was sentenced to 20 years in jail for smuggling marijuana and essentially what happened was, was that she was accused of taking a little more than four kilos of marijuana -- that's about nine pounds -- and smuggling it into Indonesia.

She says, "No way, I didn't do that. These drugs were planted." Nonetheless, that was her sentence. Now, what's happening right now with her, though, is that prosecutors are appealing and saying, "You know what, that 20 years is too light," because she could have got either life or the death penalty.

Well, so the Australian government is trying to negotiate with the Indonesian authorities and what they're saying is, "Look, why don't you just have her come back to Australia and she can serve out the rest her sentence there." But there's a real feeling in Australia that, you know, the Indonesian government, when dealing with the issue of drugs and narcotic in Indonesia, really used Shapelle Corby as an example.

PHILLIPS: Well -- and so now this model has busted for allegedly having drug.

VERJEE: Right.

PHILLIPS: How are Australians receiving this and do they think there's an issue with setups? Or do they believe this is just a place where, you know, these types people come and bring drugs in and out?

VERJEE: Right, well, with Shapelle Corby, there was a real sense of outrage in Australia. They said, "You know what, we don't buy this. We really thing that she was set up."

You know, they said, "Boycott Bali, Australia should suspend aid to Indonesia. We shouldn't give tsunami relief," and all the rest of it. But by and large, I was speaking to a colleague of mine, Michael Holmes, on CNN International who's Australian and he said you know what, "Australians by and large, don't have a lot of sympathy for people who carry drug to Australia. The Australian government is also saying, You know, there's clearly an issue, so don't. PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see if this happens again and we'll continue to follow it. Thank you very much, Zain.

VERJEE: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, making up for past mistakes. It's a different D-day for some Japanese-Americans who spent years confined to internment camps. LIVE FROM has the story.

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN HOLLYWOOD CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Sibila Vargas in Hollywood. An "American Idol" is under the weather. Tinseltown's "It" couple makes and appearance and you may not know the name Bebe yet, but you will soon. I'll have the details when LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: In entertainment news, nominations for the Latin Grammys are out and "American Idol's" Bo Bice, taking a break from singing after undergoing surgery. CNN Entertainment Correspondent Sibila Vargas, live in L.A. with all the details. Hi, Sibila.

VARGAS: Hi, Kyra. It's time to salsa, meringue and samba. Nominations for the sixth annual Latin Grammy Awards were announced and this year's biggest contender goes by one name.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VARGAS: I like her style. Spanish singing sensation Bebe surprised many with the most nominations: Five in all. Her nods include album of the year and record and song of the year.

Jennifer Lopez's hubby Marc Anthony also got some props with three nominations and Latin cutie Juanes scored three nods of his own. The Latin Grammys will be held November 3rd at L.A.'s shrine auditorium.

In other music news, it looks like "American Idol's" favorite, Bo Bice, will take a break from performing.

(SINGING)

VARGAS: The singer is giving his vocal cords a rest after having surgery at a Las Vegas hospital while out on the "American Idol" live tour. In a statement on his Web site, it says that Bo's surgery was a success and thanked his fans for their prayers and support.

The statement did not say what was wrong with Bice, but the singer's grandmother told an Alabama newspaper that he suffered a stomach ailment.

And finally, we turn our attention to the new tomcat. That would be Brat Pitt and Angelina, aka, Brangelina (ph). The couple du jour was spotted in Canada over the weekend.

Brand and Angelina toured a dinosaur exhibit in Calgary; that's where he's filming. Museum staff members were said to have been impressed with the couple's being so down to Earth, but unfortunately, the couple had to leave through an alternate exit after a large crowd started to gather after finding out the stars were inside. And don't you just hate when that happens, Kyra?

PHILLIPS: I was just trying to think if we put our names together. Sabyra, is that what we would be from now on?

VARGAS: That's a good one, yes.

PHILLIPS: OK.

VARGAS: Or Kyrila.

PHILLIPS: OK. That works, too. All right. Sibila, thank you so much.

Well, it's time now to check in with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. We'll just keep it Wolf Blitzer. He's standing by live in Washington to tell us what's coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM. Hi, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Hi, Kyra. Thanks very much. Coming up here at the top of the hour, Pat Robertson blaming the news media: Was he misinterpreted when he said that Venezuelan President Chavez should be taken out? We're doing a fact check.

Plus, Gary Hart, he's taking on his own party, telling Democrats to stand strongly against the war and not be cowards. Find out why he thinks they're making a big mistake, at least so far. Gary Hart will joining me live.

Also, plane crash survivor: His flight went down in Peru with his entire family on board. Find out how all of them made it out alive. We'll have his incredible story.

And a little bit later, the Lance Armstrong doping controversy: The head of the Tour de France is pointing the finger, but is it real science or sour grapes?

That, much more, coming up at the top of the hour here in THE SITUATION ROOM -- Kyra?

PHILLIPS: All right, Wolf, thank you so much.

Well, receiving an honor decades overdue: Japanese-Americans who spent years in interment camps finally getting their moment in the spotlight. Their story, next on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, they've watched their children and their children's children graduate from high school. It's a moment they themselves were denied by the U.S. government until Sunday, when that wrong was finally righted.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): In traditional caps and gowns, graduates adorned with colorful leis and sashes proudly made their way on stage to receive an honor 60 years overdue, their high school diploma.

All are Japanese-Americans, all spent part of their teen years behind barbed wire. The life they knew, cut short one dark December day.

MO KANDA, SOUTH PASADENA, CALIFORNIA: I led a pretty normal sort of life until the bombs hit Pearl Harbor. So, after that, my life kind of changed.

PHILLIPS: After the attack on Pearl Harbor about 120,000 ethnic Japanese, most of them born in this country, many living in California, were forced into one of ten interment camps.

And there they stayed, until the end of World War II. In 1988, the U.S. government officially apologized to them. Last year, California passed a law allowing school districts to give those long- ago students their long-overdue recognition.

MICHIYE TAKEYAMA, GARDENA CALIFORNIA: I've always wanted to wear a cap and gown and go to my commencement exercises.

HAUN OKUNO, CULVER CITY, CALIFORNIA: It's like, "Oh, at least," kind of thing, you know. So --

QUESTION: Were you happy?

OKUNO: Very happy and I though, "What a big thing." I mean, look my kids gave me flowers. They make a big thing out of it, but it's really nice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, so far, more than 400 Americans of Japanese ancestry have received the sheep skins under the Diploma Project. I'm Kyra Phillips. Now Wolf Blitzer is live in THE SITUATION ROOM. We'll see you tomorrow.

END

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