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Reporter Released After 85 Days; Over 100 Dead in Two Days of Baghdad Bombings; Bennett Stands By Controversial Remarks
Aired September 30, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: Battling blazes and hoping for help from the weather. Firefighters try to tame wild fires scorching thousands of acres. We're live from Los Angeles County.
Racism on the radio? Talk show host Bill Bennett under fire for saying that aborting black babies would reduce crime. He says he's been taken out of context.
From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
We begin this hour with a scary sight on a New York highway. A school bus toppled, paramedics swarming, a row of stretchers in the median. We're hearing 40 kids from a Catholic school in suburban Westchester County were on their way to a teacher's funeral when the accident happened. A number are clearly hurt. But it's not clear how many nor how many have been hurt nor how the bus overturned. Most of the injuries appear to be less than life threatening. We're going to bring you more information as soon as we get it.
Now to the Pentagon where Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the top U.S. General in Iraq are just about to brief reporters on the state of the war. We're going to check back in when we see them come to the podium.
Out of jail, under oath, and on the record. Judith Miller, "New York Times" reporter, jailed for 85 days for refusing to name a source behind a story she never wrote, is free and apparently telling a grand jury what anybody who cares already knows.
CNN's Bob Franken waiting patiently outside the D.C. courthouse. Of course, he cares.
Hi, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And not so patiently. We are -- we are under the impression that she may be coming out before long. Under the impression -- normally we don't try to do impressions. But the grand jury being as secretive as it is.
We know that Judith Miller has been inside the grand jury, apparently talking about her sources in this investigation, since 10 a.m. Eastern. We are being led to believe that she may be through and that we may be seeing her as a free woman in just a short while, accompanied by her attorneys. The freedom comes after 85 years in jail, 85 days in jail, excuse me, 85 days in jail that she spent because she had refused to testify in the investigation into the leaks that identified Valerie Plame as an undercover secret service -- excuse me, CIA operative.
Her husband is Joe Wilson, who had criticized the administration for its claims on the weapons of mass destruction. This had all ended up in a column by Robert Novak in July of 2003.
About the last reporter who had refused prosecution insistence that they talk about those sources before the grand jury had been Judith Miller. For that, on July 6 she went to jail in Alexandria, Virginia, nearby.
She now claims that her source, who is Scooter Libby, sources tell us, Scooter Libby, who is the vice president's chief of staff, finally told her that he was waiving my responsibility she would have to keep his name confidential. In fact, his lawyer says that could have happened quite some time ago.
Whether or not that's the case, Judith Miller has now decided, after her 85 days behind bars, that the time had come to testify, and that occurred this morning. Presumably when she leaves her, she will have fulfilled that responsibility.
As far as the investigation is concerned, it is into whether a law was broken which makes it a crime to knowingly identify somebody who is undercover for the government. Among those others who have been named as sources, Karl Rove, the president's super chief political adviser, and now the deputy chief of staff.
Both lawyers for both Rove and Libby have said that they did not knowingly identify her as an undercover operative. So this is really quite complex. We are led to believe that, with the testimony of Judith Miller, this investigation may be through, an investigation that required her to spend 85 days in jail -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Bob, I was getting word that possibly we might hear from Judith Miller. Is that true?
FRANKEN: Well, we're certainly hoping so. Her attorney had led us to believe that after the grand jury testimony that she would come out and talk to us.
One of the claims you get all the time is that because of the grand jury's secrecy they can't say anything. And before that claim is made it involves rule 6E, and that is only a requirement that the ground jurors and officers of the grand jury, such as the prosecutor or the marshals, et cetera, they are prohibited from testifying. Somebody who's a witness has every right to say whatever he or she wants.
By the way, the lawyers for those who testify before a grand jury do not go into the grand jury room. It is simply the person who is testifying. And now after 85 days in jail, that person was Judith Miller. PHILLIPS: Bob Franken, thank you so much.
It's been a grisly 24 hours in Iraq's heartland: 102 dead people -- dead individuals in three bombings yesterday in Balad just north of Baghdad. Eight were killed today in a bombing in Hilla just south of Baghdad.
CNN's Aneesh Raman is in Baghdad now with the latest. Aneesh, any connection?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE))
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Civilians again, the target of insurgent attacks in Iraq on Friday, women and children among the dead after a car bomb detonated at a vegetable market in the town of Hilla, south of the Iraqi capital. A number of people wounded. A huge explosion taking place at a peak hour in the morning when a good number of Iraqis would have been out on the streets.
At the same time, the residents of Balad, a town north of the capital, starting to pick up the pieces after a gruesome attack by insurgents late Thursday night. A trio of car bombs along with mortar and small arms fire left well over 80 people dead, well over 100 others wounded.
From the residents are questions now as simple as they get. Why does this keep happening? Where is the government? Where is security?
This, of course, comes as Iraqi and U.S. officials have said there will be a spike in violence in Iraq as we head towards that critical date of October 15, when this country will go to the polls to vote on its constitution.
Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: We'll take you straight from Baghdad now to the Pentagon. Talking about Iraq, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
DONALD H. RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: ... by the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq.
If they were called to account for the state of their strategy in those countries, consider what might be asked of them.
For example, they might be asked why they failed to stop millions of Afghans and Iraqis from voting in free and relatively orderly elections; or how it is that the Iraqi Sunnis, who are supposedly the natural allies of the insurgents, have chosen, albeit belatedly, to energetically embrace the political process, registering in large numbers; or why the terrorists failed to prevent nearly 200,000 Iraqis and some 75,000 Afghan -- I think it's technically 194,000 Iraqis -- from joining the Afghan and Iraqi security forces, despite their very best efforts at intimidation to prevent them from joining those forces; or why the vast majority of Afghans and Iraqis have rejected the terrorists' twisted ideology and instead are supporting efforts to build new societies; or how terrorists expect to succeed militarily when they cannot rely on sanctuaries in places like Fallujah or Najaf or Tal Afar to plan operations and to train recruits.
RUMSFELD: These would be awkward questions for them to answer, indeed, because by every one of those measurements the enemy is losing.
While the transition of Afghan and Iraq from tyranny to democracy has been and remains violent, we know the importance of seeing this effort through. And we're seeing the progress that has come with patience, the patience, the adaptability, the resilience, and the grit of our armed forces.
Consider, four years ago, these two countries were among a handful of regimes in the world that were labeled as terrorist sponsors, regimes that had the viciousness and the capability to support terrorism and inflict damage on our country. And today these two countries are joining a growing list of free nations that are fighting terrorism. And millions of their neighbors have taken notice of the reforms that are under way in these rising and predominantly Muslim democracies.
RUMSFELD: These are important achievements.
And General Casey has been an important part of the progress in Iraq. And I welcome him here.
And thank you, George, for your superb service to our country. We appreciate it.
GENERAL GEORGE CASEY, COMMANDING GENERAL, MULTINATIONAL FORCE- IRAQ CASEY: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
Good afternoon.
I'll just make a short statement here and then we'll take your questions with the secretary.
As we approach the referendum on the Iraqi constitution, and elections for government based on that constitution, the Iraqi people are locked in a struggle between tyranny and democracy.
They are fighting for their future against the remnants of the regime that tyrannized them for the past three decades and against elements of a global terrorist network who seek to establish Iraq as a base from which they can export terror throughout the region and across the globe.
I'm convinced that with our support, the Iraqis and the Iraqi people will prevail in the struggle.
We have crafted a strategy for success in Iraq based on historical lessons, established counterinsurgency principles in the realities on the ground in Iraq.
And this strategy will enable the Iraqis to take charge of their future.
To be sure, the next months will be difficult, as our enemies also recognize what's at stake.
They are already challenging the referendum process with increased terror attacks to create the impression that attempts of progress are futile and that Iraq can never become a modern democratic society.
They are attacking the will of the Iraqi people and they are attacking the will of our coalition publics.
They are failing in Iraq.
Across Iraq, 98 percent of the eligible Iraqis have registered to participate in the referendum and election processes.
Better than 90 percent of the Iraqis have stated their intent to vote.
And most importantly, as the secretary noted, Sunni Arabs who boycotted the election in January remain committed to participating in the referendum in the election.
This is a significant step forward from the boycott that took place in January.
On the military side, coalition force and Iraqi security forces continue to pressure terrorist insurgents across, and Iraqi security forces are progressing in continuing to take a more prominent role in defending their country.
CASEY: Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
In May, Iraqi security forces conducted about 160 combined or independent operations at the company level and above.
So about 100 people, company level,and about 160 operations.
In September, that was over 1,300. And then our transition teams that we put with the Iraqi security forces have greatly enhanced their development and their ability to operate with us.
We are at the point now where 80 percent of all of the company- level and higher operations that are done are combined operations with the Iraqi or Iraqi independent operations. Big step forward.
Additionally, we expect to have 60,000 to 70,000 more Iraqi security forces available for referendum security than we had in January. And by the time of the elections, we expect to have about 100,000 more Iraqi security forces available to protect those elections than we had in January. So as a result, for example, I only had to ask for an additional 2,000 coalition troops to protect the referendum and election process this year vice 12,000 in January.
Another example. In the recent success in Tal Afar, Iraqi security forces outnumbered coalition forces for the first time in a major operation.
A year ago, that division didn't exist.
We've also had good success militarily against the Al Qaida network, killing and capturing over 20 of their key leaders since July and including the recent death of a key Zarqawi lieutenant, Abu Azzam.
CASEY: We and our Iraqi security force colleagues remain postured to provide security for the referendum and the election. And while I expect the insurgents to pull out all the stops to disrupt the process, they will not stop the political process from going forward.
We're in a tough fight in Iraq. But our country has been in tough fights before to advance the cause of democracy and to protect our way of life. We should not be afraid of this one. We and the Iraqi people will prevail in this battle of wills if we don't lose ours.
We continue to make progress every day in Iraq. Some day the steps we take are smaller than others. But we are more relentless in our progress than those who are trying to disrupt it. We have a strategy and a plan for success in Iraq. And we are broadly on track in achieving our goals.
Make no mistake about it: It's hard work; it's a challenging environment. But we have the best of America and coalition countries, military and civilian, committed to defeating terrorism and tyranny in Iraq so that we can all live safer.
And I would like to express a special thanks to the families of all our service members serving not only in Iraq but around the globe. They are just doing an absolutely magnificent job in defeating terrorism around the world.
Success here in Iraq will require patience and will. But both the region and the country, our country, will be safer when Iraq succeeds. Thank you.
QUESTION: General, you and General Abizaid and the secretary and others have said that in large measure, our ability to pull American troops out of Iraq will depend on progress in training the Iraqi forces. You've just given a large number, figures, there. But you said yesterday that only one Iraqi battalion, army battalion now, instead of the three previously stated are able now to operate alone without U.S. military help.
And yet you say that's not a setback to U.S. hopes to leave Iraq. Would you explain that? How is that not a setback, sir?
CASEY: Think about what you are saying. Two battalions out of 100; one thing.
Second, let me explain here the different levels and why we set them up like we did.
CASEY: First of all, we purposely set a very high standard for the first level because as we looked at our strategy, we said that whatever happens with the Iraqi security forces, when we leave them, we have to leave them at a level where they can sustain the counterinsurgency effort with progressively less support from us.
So that first one is a very, very high standard. We set that standard knowing full well that it was going to be a long time before all Iraqi units got in that category.
And so the fact that there's only one or three units, that is not necessarily important to me right now.
Next year, at this time, I'll be much more concerned about it; right now, I'm not.
Second thing: level two. And this, for us right now, is the most important level because we purposely adopted a level that would allow us to measure their capability to take the lead in conducting counterinsurgency operations with our support, with our transition teams and enablers.
And, again, while these numbers are classified, the numbers of units in level two has doubled since May. So that's where we should be focusing our attention at this point.
Level three are those units that are not quite at level two but they are also in the fight with us. And I think you've heard that said.
Over 75 percent of these Iraqi units are out there with us in the fight every day.
PHILLIPS: General George Casey briefing reporters there at the pentagon briefing. As you know, General Casey along with a number of the other lead generals in the fight in Iraq have been meeting with the president of the united states and Donald Rumsfeld, defense secretary, about the situation in Iraq.
And also, General Casey, in addition to the other generals, testifying before various committees and being questioned about when indeed U.S. troops will be coming home. Still a lot of controversy within that question.
More LIVE FROM right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BENNETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You could abort every black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Radio racism? Talk show host Bill Bennett says he has remarks were taken out of context.
BENNETT: Well, I'm not racist.
PHILLIPS: Critics call for an apology. We'll debate it on LIVE FROM.
And later...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would explain to him that these people are up here eating tree bark.
PHILLIPS: Stranded survivors send out an Internet SOS for help after the hurricane.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You sound pretty darn frustrated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, ma'am, I'm pissed as hell.
PHILLIPS: Why did it take so long to get food and water to a community in desperate need?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Welcome home, but it's your own risk of course, of course. Residents of eight New Orleans ZIP codes are allowed to return today. The rest of the city reopens next week, except for the lower Ninth Ward. It's still unlivable after two rounds of hurricane- related flooding.
We're going to get back to talking about New Orleans in just a minute. But you're seeing a live picture of a very happy Judith Miller now. As you know, she's out of jail, under oath and on the record now. Judith Miller, the "New York Times" reporter that had been jailed for 85 days for refusing to name her source behind the story that she never wrote, of course.
We'll give you the background on that in just a minute, but I think she might be stepping up to the mics for a statement. We don't want to miss what she has to say. Let's listen in.
JUDITH MILLER, "NEW YORK TIMES": I'm happy to be free and finally able to talk to all of you.
Recently I heard directly from my source that I should testify before the grand jury. This was in the form of a personal letter and most important, a telephone conversation, a telephone call to me at the jail. I concluded from this that my source genuinely wanted me to testify.
These were not form waivers. They were not discussions among lawyers. They were given after the special council assured us that such communication would not be regarded as obstruction of justice.
Once I got a personal voluntary waiver, my lawyer, Mr. Bennett, approached the special counsel to see if my grand jury testimony could be limited to the communications with the source from whom I had received that personal and voluntary waiver. The special counsel agreed to this, and that was very important to me.
I served 85 days in jail because of my belief in the importance of upholding the confidential relationship journalists have with their sources. Believe me, I did not want to be in jail. But I would have stayed even longer if I had not achieved these two things: the personal waiver and the narrow testify -- and the narrow testimony. I could not have testified without both of them.
I said to the court before I was jailed that I did not believe I was above the law. And that I would therefore have to go to jail because of my principals. But once I satisfied those principals, I was prepared to testify.
I am hopeful that my very long stay in jail will serve to strengthen the bond between reporters and their sources. I hope that blanket waivers are a thing of the past. They do not count. They are not voluntary, and they should not be accepted by journalists. I am also hopeful that my time in jail will help pass a federal shield law so that the public's right to know can be protected.
And finally, I want to thank everyone, particularly Arthur Sulzberger Jr. and "The New York Times," my family, my husband, my friends, my colleagues, the citizens of this country who wrote to me and from all over the world who said they understood the position of principle that I was taking and supported me. They've supported me through a very difficult time.
I will take a few questions. But bear with me, I am really tired. I have a meal that I want my husband to prepare, a dog I want to hug, and I'd like to go home to Sag Harbor. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe your role in this case since you didn't file a story but did go to jail? How would you characterize your role in this whole investigation?
MILLER: I was a journalist doing my job. Protecting my source until my source freed me to perform my civic duty to testify.
FRANKEN: Question, Scooter Libby's lawyer, your source's lawyer, I suspect you're not going to tell us if that's correct.
MILLER: I am not going to tell you if that's correct.
FRANKEN: Scooter's lawyer has said that, had you asked, you wouldn't have had to spend any time in jail. He would have been more than willing to give you the explicit waiver you say you now accepted.
MILLER: I was not a party to those discussions. I'm going to let you refer those questions to my lawyer. I can only tell you that as soon as I received a personal assurance from the source that I was able to talk to him and talk to the source about my testimony, it was only then and as a result of the special prosecutors' agreement to narrow the focus of the inquiry, to focus on that source, that I was able to testify.
I testified as soon as I could. And I will ask you to please address the questions to which I was not a party to my lawyers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Judy, a conversation you were a party to, on the steps of this courthouse, when you and Matt faced contemptive court charges, you said out here when Matt was asked the same question, your answer was different. You said no waiver would be acceptable.
MILLER: No, I said I had not received a personal explicit voluntary waiver from my source, what I considered that. That was my position, and I said it many times. I said it before I went to jail. I said it when I was in jail.
FRANKEN: What about -- what about the perception that you spent 85 days dancing on the head of a pin?
MILLER: I will let people draw their own conclusions. I know what my conscience would allow. And I was -- I stood fast to that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Journalist principles involved. What is this really all about? Why was your testimony so important to Mr. Fitzgerald?
MILLER: You'll have to ask Mr. Fitzgerald why it's important.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, I think we're done here, folks. Thanks -- thank you very much.
MILLER: Thank you very much. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Making clear she was very tired and ready to go home to Sag Harbor to have dinner with her husband and hug her dog. Judith Miller "The New York Times" reporter that was jailed for 85 days for refusing to name a source behind a story that she didn't even write.
Well, she's finally free, saying that she's happy to be free, that she received a letter and a phone call from her source, releasing her from, of course, keeping his identity a secret.
She said she would have stayed in jail longer, but she received that personal waiver and was able to give her testimony in not a real long or in-depth way. A narrow testimony as she puts it. And she's hoping that what she did serves to strengthen the bond between reporters and their sources.
Our Bob Franken was right there right next to her asking the pointed questions.
Bob, a couple of things I want to address. Maybe we can give a little -- we keep saying she was in jail for a story she didn't even write. Maybe for those who aren't up on this we can explain the connection to the Valerie Plame situation. And then we can sort of unravel what you asked and some of the other questions that were addressed to Judith Miller. FRANKEN: Well, first start with this. Judith Miller has written about weapons of mass destruction. As a matter of fact, had been criticized because some of her articles accepted administration contentions that were later proven to be questionable.
But it was a subject she was writing about, so she would have been somebody who would have been trying to check out sources, whether she wrote the article or not.
The article that caused this whole investigation was written by Robert Novak, columnist and CNN contributor. He has never been put in the position that Judith Miller was.
Now, as to the point about whether she, after 85 days in jail, was now testifying only because she got explicit permission from her source, who, by the way, she wouldn't identify, but her source was Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who was the vice president's chief of staff.
His lawyer, Joseph Tate, says he would have been more than happy to arrange for that type of thing well beforehand, well before this, well before she went to jail.
And as a matter of fact, when she was asking whether we would refer questions about that to her lawyer, I looked up to her lawyer, Robert Bennett, who was standing right in back of her, and gave him a look which he clearly interpreted, correctly interpreted, do you want to respond to this? And he shook his head no.
So I suppose that's going to be a question that is not going to be answered.
But, whatever, Judith Miller no longer is the cause celebre that she has been. She pent 85 days in the Alexandria jail. She's now going back to Sag Harbor and the aforementioned meal and the hug with her dog -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Of course, we can't miss that. Now she's hoping, of course, that what she did not only sends out a powerful message for reporters and their sources, but also hoping that this move will go forward toward passing a federal shield law.
FRANKEN: Well, what they mean by federal shield law, just for those who don't follow such things.
PHILLIPS: Like we do.
FRANKEN: A shield law -- a shield law is legislation -- many, many states have it -- that allow reporters not to reveal their sources. However, there is not a federal piece of legislation like that. And as a result of all this, there are now repeated requests for Congress to come up with one.
There are some arguments against it, not the least of which come from federal prosecutors like Patrick Fitzgerald who say that such a blanket kind of shield law would interrupt their imperative investigations where they sometimes have no choice but to seek comments from reporters.
Of course, reporters and their supporters claim that unless they have this ability to protect their sources, they're not able to do the job that was envisioned by the Founding Fathers, which is to be the independent voice observing how the government operates.
PHILLIPS: So with regard to this case and of course the ties to the "Time" magazine piece, I mean, is this all over now, Bob?
FRANKEN:: Kyra, we have lost communication. So I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to hear your questions.
PHILLIPS: OK, Bob Franken, I apologize. We lost of our connection with Bob Franken, who was just outside the courthouse there, as Judith Miller walked away and addressed reporters for the very first time in 85 days. We're going to take a quick break. We've got more LIVE FROM for you right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Now in the news, 40 years in uniform and the highest military position in the land. General Richard Myers retired from the U.S. Air Force, and from the chairmanship of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. His vice chairman, Marine Corps General Peter Pace, will assume the top job today.
And more than 20,000 acres already blackened in a massive wildfire north of Los Angeles. It's only about 20 percent contained right now. Firefighters there are counting on a break in the hot weather and a shift in the wind to give them an upper hand. We watch and we hope.
A bit of A HAZMAT score on the New Jersey side of the Hudson River today. A chemical leak at a chlorine plant in Jersey City prompted police to warn residents to stay inside and shut off their air-conditioners. Turns out that leak was minor and contained. All those warnings have been dropped.
And brace yourself, gas prices bouncing back up again. The national average for a gallon of self-serve regular, $2.84, according to the AAA. The price for premium, don't even ask. If it's any comfort at all, the impact of Hurricane Rita on gas prices has been far less than Hurricane Katrina which pushed gas prices, as you well know, above $3.
KAGAN: And now the case of the missing generator. Allegedly looted from one New Orleans hospital before it could be taken to help another medical facility evacuate. But it's not the who may have done it that's the real kicker, it's the reported reason why.
CNN's Drew Griffin continues his probe of the New Orleans Police Department which is taking a hard look at a few of its own officers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For a week the New Orleans Police Department called allegations of looting by its officers a misunderstanding. Now the new acting superintendent calls it an active investigation.
WARREN RILEY, ACTING NEW ORLEANS POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: That I have ordered an immediate internal investigation by the Department's Public Integrity Bureau, which will focus on at least 12 police officers who are being accused of misconduct.
GRIFFIN: Four officers have been suspended. One has been reassigned. And interim chief Warren Riley insisted all allegations will be thoroughly checked.
RILEY: I want to reaffirm my position that there is zero tolerance for misconduct or un-professionalism by any member of this department.
GRIFFIN: Among the allegations under investigation, claims that eight officers holed up on the 10th floor of this Canal Street hotel were drinking and eating by day and looting by night. Police confirmed this is one of their officers caught on tape, holding a gun as he appears to be blocking a photographer from entering the 10th floor through this door.
This generator is one of the items at the hotel that witnesses say was stolen by police.
(on camera): And they stole this from a hospital?
OSMAN KHAN, HOTEL MANAGER: They stole it from Tulane Hospital, correct.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Hotel manager Osman Khan says the generator was stolen from Tulane Hospital and used by officers, he says, to keep beer cold. Tulane Hospital confirms the generator is owned by Tulane, and during the hurricane's aftermath was being used to evacuate patients.
(on camera): Those evacuations were taking place on this parking deck. The generator was being used to light up the deck, to keep the communications, the radios going, so they could communicate with the helicopters. Tulane was finished with its evacuations, but left the generator and all the communications and gas in place so that Charity Hospital could continue its evacuations. That is when the generator, now down there, on the second floor of this hotel, was looted.
GEORGE JAMISON, TULANE HOSPITAL: It was left on the parking deck specifically fueled up with fuel for Charity Hospital because we thought they still had people. And we thought that they were going to continue with an exercise to evacuate them.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Tulane security officer George Jamison says he has no proof the taking of the generator cost any lives or even inconvenience. But as for who took it and why...
(on camera): ... Jamison, would it surprise you to know that it was taken by officers of the New Orleans Police to cool their beer? JAMISON: Well, since I'm not running for political office, I can say no, it wouldn't surprise me.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): In addition to the looting allegations, in the last few days, Police Chief Eddie Compass suddenly resigned and another investigation was launched into why or if 249 police officers deserted their posts. The new chief said this when asked if his department is too dysfunctional or disorganized to keep the city safe.
RILEY: No. First of all, this department is not dysfunctional. The more than 2,000 men and women of this agency stand united in not letting a very small segment of members tarnish the great reputation of this department.
GRIFFIN: The truth is the New Orleans P.D. Has a reputation, but not a good one. Two of its former officers are on death row. There have been multiple investigations of corruption. Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington tried to clean up the New Orleans Police Department when he was chief in this city from 1994 until 2002. Today, he, too, says he's not surprised New Orleans police officers are under investigation.
RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE CHIEF: I, you know, was involved in arresting many officers in that department during my tenure. And I know for a fact I probably did not get all the officers that were corrupt. And so I wasn't surprised at all when I heard it.
GRIFFIN: Pennington says the question now -- is the New Orleans Police Department capable of investigating itself, while also trying to recover from the worst disaster in the city's history? The city's newest chief of police says wait and see for yourself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: We'll follow all those investigations of course.
Well, John Roberts is not at the courthouse today. Having taken quite a major promotion. As you may have heard, the former appellate judge is the chief justice of the United States. Today is his first day of work, though the first day of the Supreme Court's term is Monday. Lame duck justice Sandra Day O'Connor, whom Roberts was originally tapped to replace, will be there while President Bush mulls over another nominee. We're hearing that announcement could come soon, but not today.
Straight ahead, racist radio? If you haven't heard what William Bennett had to say on his show, you'll want to stay tuned. We're going to debate it. We'll talking about abortion, crime and African- Americans.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: William Bennett says somebody owes him an apology. He may not get one though, but people are talking about him anyway, after the former education secretary made some explosive comments on his radio show yesterday.
Here's CNN's Miles O'Brien.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM BENNETT, FORMER EDUCATION SECRETARY: Well, I'm not racist and I'll put my record up against theirs.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Education Secretary William Bennett on the defensive after some remarks many are calling offensive. It happened as he responded to a caller on his syndicated radio show Wednesday.
BENNETT: If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down.
O'BRIEN: Bennett is a veteran soldier in the culture wars. He served as drug czar in the first Bush administration, pushed the war on drugs, then later wrote "The Book of Virtues," a handbook of conservative morality. Democrats wasted no time firing back at his latest provocative comment.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: What could possibly have possessed Secretary Bennett to say those words, especially at this time? What could he possibly have been thinking? This is what is so alarming about his words.
O'BRIEN: House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi called on President Bush to condemn the comments. And the head of the NAACP said in a statement, "while the entire nation is trying to help survivors, black and white, to recover from the damage caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, it is unconscionable for Bennett to make such ignorant and insensitive comments."
But true to form, Bennett is standing by his words. He says they were taken out of context.
BENNETT: If somebody thought I was advocating that, they ought to be angry. I'd be angry. I was putting forward a hypothetical proposition, put that forward, examined it, and then said about it that it's morally reprehensible. To recommend abortion of an entire group of people in order to lower your crime rate is morally reprehensible. But this is what happens when you argue that the ends can justify the means.
O'BRIEN: And to his critics, Bennett says he is not the one who owes the apology.
BENNETT: I think people who have misrepresented my view owe me an apology.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: Well, let's debate it, shall we? I have the perfect guests to do so -- Roland Martin, journalist, columnist, and the news editor for "Savoy" magazine. And John McWhorter holds a Ph.D. in linguistics, writes extensively on race and cultural issues on America. Gentlemen, great to have you both.
ROLAND MARTIN, NEWS EDITOR, "SAVOY" MAGAZINE: Thank you.
JOHN MCWHORTER, SR. FELLOW, MANHATTAN INST.: Glad to be here.
PHILLIPS: All right. Quickly, first reaction. Both of you guys heard the radio show. Roland?
MARTIN: Well, first of all, Bill Bennett, I'll be damned if he's going to get an apology for me. For him to say it's a hypothetical situation to suggest that you could abort every black child -- which would include me and my nieces and nephews and mothers and fathers -- to lower the crime rate, how about a jobs program or an education program lower crime?
If you actually want to lower crime in America, even with a hypothetical, why don't you abort the second amendment? If we got rid of all the guns in this country, you also might lower the crime rate. And maybe if the drug czar did a better job when he was the drug czar to prevent crack and cocaine and heroin from coming to America, that could also lower the crime rate. So even if in a hypothetical situation, it was still offensive to suggest that kind of comment.
PHILLIPS: John, was it offensive?
MCWHORTER: Not remotely. Bill Bennett was giving a series of hypothetical ideas as to why you might espouse abortion that he didn't agree with. He was hypothetically saying suppose we took something as repulsive as aborting black babies, then that could be argued to lower the crime rate. He meant it hypothetically.
He would never espouse such a thing. He's owed no apology whatsoever. And, frankly, the fact around this country today a lot of African-Americans are pretending not to understand what he meant, makes it look like we are incapable of dealing with close reasoning, and it worries me. The man did absolutely nothing wrong.
PHILLIPS: All right. You both mentioned hypothetical. Let me as you guys -- Roland, John, just one more time, I want -- when you talk about the hypothetical -- and yes, previously in the show, he was talking about the hypothetical. But listen to what he says as this quote starts. Just listen to the first sentence. Let's listen one more time.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BENNETT: I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. (END AUDIO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: He talks about how ridiculous it is. He talks about the hypothetical, but then he says, quote, "but I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime," blah, blah, blah, blah. So he's saying, but I do know. So, that doesn't sound like a hypothetical to me.
MARTIN: Of course -- John, aren't you an expert on linguistics? So why don't you break this down for us? Since he did say I do know. If you want to.
PHILLIPS: Please, John, go ahead.
MCWHORTER: Well, it seems like we're talking about two different things. When he's talking about black people and crime, what he's referring to is the unfortunate fact, which is certainly traceable to racism in the past or present of what have you, that a disproportionate amount of particularly black men do commit crimes in this country.
Now, we can talk about what we're going to do about that, but that means that in the very strict logical sense, what he is saying is true. He is certainly not advocating that what we do about it is abort all black babies. It's a hypothetical that he was referring to because he was making the logical point about his opposition to abortion. He wasn't espousing aborting black babies.
MARTIN: But, John, when you make the point -- first of all, when you give the impression that only black folks are involved in crime...
MCWHORTER: It doesn't mean only.
MARTIN: No, no, no, hold on a second. John, but he also said every black child, including somebody like me, who has never been involved with the police.
MCWHORTER: Which would mean that the crime would go down.
MARTIN: John, John, John -- I can also say that maybe if we aborted every white male baby, we wouldn't blow up other countries and start wars. As a radio show host. I got a radio host launching on Monday on WBON in Chicago, John, and when I get behind that microphone, I'm very sensitive to what I say. And when you make comments like that, you feed this frenzy of your audience saying, oh, yes, that's right.
MCWHORTER: No...
PHILLIPS: Let me ask you this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: John, let me ask you, John. Since you in some manner here kind of support this, let me ask you, are there numbers...
MCWHORTER: No, I don't support it.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you this, though...
MARTIN: Well, you haven't criticized it, John.
MCWHORTER: He was giving the most repulsive possible situation. That was the point he was trying to make.
PHILLIPS: Is there a way to track the numbers? For example, can you say, OK, in 2004, 6,000 people had abortions, 5,000 of them were black, and guess what, it was in a state and all of a sudden the crime went down. I mean, can you actually put your finger on numbers like that -- so whether Bill Bennett says, I know this is true, or someone comes forward and says no, it isn't true. Like we're seeing -- can you -- can you look at the numbers? Or is it a privacy issue?
MCWHORTER: Well, according to the "Freakonomics" book, you can do this. I've also seen various sources saying that the argument in that book is incorrect. Bennett seems to have read "Freakonomics" and he's basing it on that, which is a lot of what the country is doing right now, because it's a massive bestseller and it seems to convey a certain authority.
PHILLIPS: OK, John, I don't want to cut off your thought, but chapter...
MARTIN: But, Kyra, but Kyra...
PHILLIPS: Hold on guys. In "Freakonomics" -- in "Freakonomics," chapter four, "Where Have All the Criminals Gone?" it says: "One way to test the effect of abortion on crime would be to measure crime data in the five states where abortion was made legal before the Supreme Court extended abortion rights to rest of the country." It goes on to say: "Sure enough, the states with the highest abortion rates in the 1970s experienced the greatest crime drops in the 1990s, while states with low abortion rates experienced smaller crime drops." But it doesn't say anything about blacks.
MCWHORTER: But the reason it gets into that is because black people do happen to commit, for whatever reasons we want to talk about, a disproportionate amount -- almost half, in the 90s -- of crime. And so there's a logical A to B proposition there. Again, Ben was not saying that we should abort black babies because of it.
PHILLIPS: But, John, as a black man, can you appreciate this? If you just said that almost half of the crimes committed were by blacks -- he didn't mention whites. He didn't mention anybody else. He specifically mentioned African-Americans.
MCWHORTER: He was picking the most repulsive possible example.
MARTIN: That is -- no, no, no. Hold up, John. That is -- John, that is the point. The point is, you give the suggestion to his 115 radio stations and 1.25 million daily listeners that when it comes to crime, if we get rid of the blacks, the crime rates are going to go down. Well, fine. If we say white folks have abortions, maybe the crime rates will go down. But he didn't say that, John, and that's the point.
MCWHORTER: No, I think the point is that he was picking a repulsive example. And if it we're dismayed at the fact that a disproportionate number of black people commit crimes, then our job was to look into our community and fix it, so that a statistic like that wouldn't be available, rather than holding up Bill Bennett as a racist, which doesn't help anybody who needs help.
MARTIN: No, no, no.
PHILLIPS: Guys, we have to leave it there.
MARTIN: First of all, I didn't call Bill Bennett a racist. I didn't call him a racist. But what I'm saying is, he's seriously ill- informed. That's what he is. Ignorant. Won't call him a racist, but he's ignorant.
MCWHORTER: He owes no apology.
PHILLIPS: Roland Martin, John McWhorter. We're going to leave it right there. You both got the last word. Gentleman, it's always a pleasure. Thank you both very, very much.
MARTIN: Thanks, Kyra.
MCWHORTER: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: All right. You bet.
Well, up next, a check of the markets. So stay with us, right here on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: And coming up in the second hour of LIVE FROM, the state of health care in the hurricane zone. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us with the obstacles facing many hospitals in the Gulf Coast.
And a quick check of the markets, as we take a look at the big board. Dow Industrials down by seven points. More LIVE FROM right after this.
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