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Syria, Hariri and the Securty Council; CIA Leak Investigation

Aired October 25, 2005 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PHILLIPS: Well, she sat down so that people could stand up. That's how one civil rights leader remembers Rosa Parks, the African- American woman who refused to give up her bus seat to a white passenger in segregated Montgomery, Alabama. She died last night in Detroit. She was 92. Her simple act of defiance 50 years ago sparked a bus boycott and a revolution. Ten years ago she talked about it with CNN's Larry King.

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LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Can you tell us why you didn't sit in the back of the bus that day?

ROSA PARKS: First of all, there was no place in the back to sit even further back than I was.

KING: It was crowded?

PARKS: It was crowded in the back, and I was not sitting in the white section of the bus. I sat -- took a seat right behind the last white people that was seated there, with a man, a black man, who was next to the women. I was next to the aisle.

KING: So why did they stop you?

PARKS: And there were two women across. About the third stop from where I boarded the bus, there were some white people that got on, and they took all of the front seats, and left one man standing. And when the driver saw this man standing up ...

KING: White man?

PARKS: Yes, he was white. The passenger didn't ask for the seat at all. He didn't say anything, but just found a place to stand. The driver noticed him standing, and that is when he told the four of us to let him have those seats. Which meant the four of us would have been standing and then this man could only occupy one seat and then there would be three vacant seats.

KING: Because you weren't supposed to sit next to it a white man?

PARKS: That was the rule then.

KING: So you did not get up? PARKS: No. I didn't.

KING: Do you know why?

PARKS: Yes.

KING: Why?

PARKS: Because I didn't think I should have to get up. I had already paid my fare and I'm sure he didn't pay any more than I did, and I didn't think that once we took a seat, even under the segregation conditions, that we should be made to stand up in a crowded bus and not be ...

KING: Did you have any idea you were starting something that day?

PARKS: No. No, I didn't know what would be the outcome of my taking a stand except I knew that when the driver said he would have me arrested, that was he was going to do and I would be on my way to jail.

KING: Were you frightened?

PARKS: I wasn't really frightened, but I thought about things that I had to do at home, and felt a little bit annoyed about that, and then I took this as an opportunity to let it be known that as a passenger, I was not being treated fairly, and as a person, and we as a people, were not treated fairly to have to undergo this type of treatment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Some call Rosa Parks' act of defiance an extraordinary event on a very ordinary bus. That bus now sits in a Detroit area museum adorned in a black crepe to mark her death. It will soon go on display at the Henry Ford Theater in Dearborn, Michigan. Back in Detroit, the mayor talks about the personal impact that Parks had on his life.

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MAYOR KWAME KILPATRICK, DETROIT, MICHIGAN: Probably in her wildest imaginations when she was sitting down on that bus, she never imagined that there would be a 30-year-old guy that could even believe he could run for mayor in the city of Detroit, and I grew up in a country that she changed.

And so when I -- from the time I was a young kid, I believed that I could be anything I wanted to be and the only reason I had those thoughts in my mind, is because Rosa Parks sat down and stood up at the same time. And so she's changed my life immensely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: And joining me now is someone else whose life was changed immensely. He knew and was inspired by Rosa Parks. The Reverend Joseph Lowery, co-founder and former president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference joins me here in Atlanta. Great to see you, sir.

REV. JOSEPH LOWERY, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Thank you. Good to be here.

PHILLIPS: Well, you knew her since 1954. What do you remember the most about her?

LOWERY: Well, regardless of anything else, you have to remember her act of courage. When they called me and told me that she was the person who sparked the boycott, I was stunned, because I remember meeting her as a very humble, quiet, soft-spoken woman.

PHILLIPS: You?

LOWERY: And I said, not that Ms. Parks. And they said, yes, that Ms. Parks. And I guess that was why God chose her, because she was not the first person to refuse to get up, but she was the right person, and I think God shows that because she was so humble, because she was so soft-spoken, and a kind of humility that you don't find in this world.

And she -- it never, I doubt, really, if she ever was overcome by her place in history. She was not aware of the greatness that had grabbed her and placed her on a particular throne in history. My baby daughter got married 20-some years ago, and Rosa Parks gave her a check for $25.

And a year later -- she didn't see Rosa for another year, and Ms. Parks saw her. She said, young lady -- and my daughter was kidding me because I called her a gentle spirit. And my daughter said she wasn't gentle with me. She said, young lady, why don't you cash that check? I can't balance my account.

And my daughter told her, Mrs. Parks, I will never cash that check, and Mrs. Parks didn't understand why my daughter wouldn't cash that check, because she didn't grasp the universal significance of her place in history. It didn't dawn on her she was that great.

PHILLIPS: Do you think, even at the age of 92, do you think she ever realized -- I mean, she had to by 92. She had to realize what an incredible heroine she was and what she did.

LOWERY: Yes, well, she was told by so many people but it didn't affect her. She was still that plain, simple, intelligent, beautiful, gentle spirit. In spite of what my daughter said, she was a gentle spirit.

PHILLIPS: I would have kept the check, too. I wouldn't have cashed it.

LOWERY: She's got it to this day, but one has to see God in this. It's the use of a gentle spirit to ignite such a ferocious storm in the arena of racial justice. She's a part of history now, and a part of eternity. As a matter of fact, she earned that immortality a long time ago.

PHILLIPS: And she represents self-determination. She started the institute, even in Detroit.

LOWERY: She instigated. The black experience and the struggle prior to the Montgomery bus boycott depended largely on the directions the court set, and litigation set, legislation. But in Montgomery, because of Rosa Parks' impact and probably because of who she was, that people decided that no matter what the court says, no matter what the legislature says or doesn't say, we ain't going to ride the back of the bus anymore and that was the era of self-determination, ushered in by this gentle spirit in Montgomery, Alabama.

PHILLIPS: Some -- a couple that was very gentle towards her, and that was Virginia and Clifford Durr, the liberal white couple. She was a seamstress for them. They encouraged her to fight for her rights even before she didn't get up from her seat.

LOWERY: Well, there were a number of white people. It must not be assumed that all white people were Bull Connors and Jim Clarks. There were a number of white people who were supportive of the movement. Not many of them would admit it, be as open as the Derr family, but there were a number. Without their support, it wouldn't have been as facile as it was.

So I applaud them as well, but Rosa Parks' courage was something that was in her and her weariness that day was not only physical, but spiritual. She was tired, and as Fannie Lou Hamer in Mississippi said, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

And Rosa said that day, I know I'm tired physically, but I'm even more tired spiritually. I'm tired of being humiliated. I'm tired of being asked to get up and move back for somebody who paid the same fare I did. I have as much right to be here as anybody else. And she sat down so a whole nation of people could stand up.

PHILLIPS: Reverend, let me ask you about her husband Raymond. Was he comfortable with all this?

LOWERY: Well, like any husband, he was concerned about her well- being and her safety. So he was a little reluctant, because he didn't know what the KKK and the hoodlums who wanted to maintain the status quo might do to her. So he wanted to be protected, but, no, he was with her. He supported her, in every way possible, even though as a husband he feared for her safety.

PHILLIPS: A friend said this about her, when talking about the importance of her character. She didn't defy authority, but refused to back down. And that's interesting when you talk about this humble spirit of hers. She wasn't rude. She wasn't nasty. She didn't scream and yell. There is a big difference between defying authority and refusing to back down, isn't there?

LOWERY: Well, I think gentleness doesn't have to be weakness. Jesus was gentle -- they called him the Lamb of God. But he was determined and committed, and would not be moved. And Rosa Parks was resolute in her gentleness, and the time had come for her to take a stand. And she did. She took a stand by sitting down and refusing -- even though she knew that she was imperiling her own safety. There's no telling what might have happened to her by the arresting officers, or by mobs or hoodlums who may have resented and resisted this move to tear down the walls of segregation. We owe her a great debt of gratitude.

PHILLIPS: Not only historically, but what an example spiritually.

LOWERY: A real example for young people today who need to see lessons -- living lessons, and she is as close to a living saint as I've ever come. But young people need to be inspired, as the whole nation was inspired: that you can overcome difficulty; that you don't have to be a roaring lion to take a strong stand against evil and wrong; that you can be gentle in spirit but powerful in your impact, upon your own psyche, and upon the psyche of a nation, if you take that kind of stand.

PHILLIPS: I feel like I was just sitting in church, Reverend. Thank you so much for your time.

LOWERY: In that case, I'm better take up an offering.

PHILLIPS: That's a deal. Hold on. I'll write you a check for $25, but don't ever cash it.

LOWERY: Deal!

PHILLIPS: Okay. Thank you.

LOWERY: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, we're going to be talking about the pressure -- the pressure on Syria, of course. We've been talking about it throughout the day, after a report that's blaming top-ranking Syrian officials for the assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister. The UN Security Council members are considering the next move. We're going to get the latest from the United Nations.

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PHILLIPS: International pressure building on Syria to come clean on its alleged role in the assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister. For that, we turn to our senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth.

Pretty interesting to watch what happened today there in front of the Security Council, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, this was a follow-up on a report delivered last week by a special prosecutor, in effect, that the UN hired to go into Syria and Lebanon and find out who killed the former prime minister of Lebanon, Rafiq Hariri, last February. Kofi Annan received the report, and today, Mehlis gave some background to the Security Council, then they talked behind closed doors about what kind of diplomatic action to take. Mehlis is unhappy with the level of cooperation from the Syrian government. He says there can be time now for the next few weeks for some meaningful cooperation. But when he asked for documents and files from the government on Hariri and others, he came up empty.

DETLEV MEHLIS, U.N. INVESTIGATOR: The Syrian authorities told us, We do not have a single document, which, frankly speaking, I do not think is true. But what can the commission do? I cannot send 500 investigators which I don't have to Syria to look for documents, because I wouldn't know where to find them.

ROTH: Mehlis says Syria could very well, if it wants to, conduct its own internal investigation. Inside the Security Council chamber, the Syrian ambassador sat across from the prosecutor, Mr. Mehlis, and questioned why this rush to judgment on Syria, saying that when other high-profile cases have come in the world -- criminal cases, there hasn't been this so-called rush to judgment.

FAYSSAL MEKDAD, SYRIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): Isn't it indeed bizarre that each and every crime could have a number of possibilities concerning who might have perpetrated it, except for this particular crime, where unfortunately there was only one possibility, and that is accusing Syria of having committed it, even before the body of Prime Minister Hariri was laid to rest.

ROTH: The U.S. ambassador, John Bolton, hints that there may be a resolution on Syria in the next few hours circulated through the Security Council, Kyra. There won't be any vote, really, until Monday at the earliest, when there may be a meeting of ministers, at the foreign minister level, including Condoleezza Rice, here at the UN -- Kyra?

PHILLIPS: All right. Richard Roth from the UN. Thanks so much.

Straight ahead, probing the leak. Will a new report have the vice president's chief of staff scooting out of town? The latest developments, next.

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PHILLIPS: Back here at B Control, a new revelation in the CIA leak investigation. That appears to be narrowing the focus on Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff. The "New York Times" reports that Lewis Scooter Libby learned about Valerie Plame's identity from his boss, not from reporters, as he testified before a grand jury. A "Times" article indicates that notes taken by Libby during a conversation with Cheney contained no suggestion that either of the two men knew about Plame's undercover status. But Libby could be in hot water if he deliberately tried to obstruct the inquiry.

CNN's Joe Johns has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Scooter who? It was once a common question around this town. Libby is at the center of power, one of those high ranking officials who sits in at cabinet meetings when his boss, Dick Cheney, isn't available. But Libby is now a very public political target because of questions whether he blew the cover of a CIA operative.

His name spoken derisively by Democrats.

HOWARD DEAN, DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIRMAN: Well the problem here is not just that Karl Rove and Scooter Libby had something to do with a cover-up and you know may have lied or whatever they may be indicted for. The problem is, this happened because the president wasn't truthful with the American people when we went into Iraq.

JOHNS: For Republicans, the prospect that someone so close to the vice president of the United States could be indicted is awkward, to say the least.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: I guess I'm just not comfortable speculating on what might happen, or whether anything will happen at all.

JOHNS: Libby has been in and out of government for decades. He was a lawyer, skilled at getting people out of legal trouble, which makes it puzzling how a man with Libby's background could get mixed up in all of this.

Libby is one of the White House hawks who helped convince the president to take down Saddam Hussein. But after the war started, Joe Wilson, the husband of CIA Agent Valerie Plame, publicly slammed Vice President Cheney and President Bush on one of their main arguments for invading Iraq, to stop Saddam from trying to get nuclear weapons.

According to published reports, Libby was furious and recommended that the White House press office respond aggressively to Joe Wilson. A word often used to describe Libby is intense -- intense in his work, in his loyalty to the vice president and passionate in his writing. He's the author of a historical novel, but it was one of his letters that's raising questions in the investigation.

In the letter to "New York Times" reporter Judy Miller, who said she spoke to Libby about the Wilson matter, Libby wrote, "the public report of every other reporter's testimony makes clear they did not discuss Ms. Plame's identity with me." And that's raising questions of whether he tried to influence her testimony before the grand jury. And powerful though he is, Libby is also a very private person, with a small circle of friends. If he's indicted, the spotlight will be hard to avoid.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

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PHILLIPS: CNN's Wolf Blitzer joins me from Washington for a little more background on this new wrinkle in a very complicated case. Wolf, maybe we just remind viewers why this is so important, and then also talk about Patrick Fitzgerald, special prosecutor, and what he might know that we don't know yet.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Remember, the whole thing, you know, started with the Bob Novak column in the "Chicago Sun-Times," syndicated in a lot of other newspapers, revealing the identity of former ambassador Joe Wilson's wife. Shortly after that occurred, the CIA referred the matter, sent a referral to the Justice Department saying, we should find out who leaked this information, because there potentially could be some serious damage.

She was a clandestine officer of the CIA and she had worked undercover around the world. And once her identity became known, with her picture presumably, that could have caused some serious problems in U.S. intelligence gathering and potentially could have endangered some of her assets, some of the agents, some of the spies, if you will, with whom she might have worked.

So the CIA sent the referral to the Justice Department. John Ashcroft was the attorney general. He had had a relationship with some of the people in the White House. He recused himself, and as a result, a few months later, they named the U.S. attorney in Chicago, Patrick Fitzgerald, to be the special counsel and to go ahead with this investigation.

So the whole thing started because the CIA thought there could be some damage to national security. And two years later, almost two years later, we are where we are.

PHILLIPS: Well, Patrick Fitzgerald, any indication of what he's doing, Wolf?

BLITZER: One of the indications that there could be indictments, perhaps, as early as tomorrow is that last week, on Friday, he opened up a Web page and he put some documents in there, some of the letters that earlier created his job and some of the explanations of what he was doing.

A lot of people, including the former U.S. attorney general Dick Thornburgh have suggested, why open up a Web page if he wasn't about to put a lot of stuff on there? Presumably documents involving indictments. If he were just going say, you know what? I investigated for nearly two years, came up with no crimes, good-bye, he wouldn't need a Web page.

So there's a strong indication he will come forward with indictments, maybe as early as tomorrow, because the grand jury meets here in Washington, usually on Wednesdays. And on Friday is the last day of this grand jury that's been empaneled. So a lot of us are thinking tomorrow, Thursday, Friday, maybe tomorrow there could be some indictments.

PHILLIPS: All right, Wolf. Of course, you'll be following it, so will I. We'll see you in "THE SITUATION ROOM." More LIVE FROM right after a quick break.

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PHILLIPS: Call it lava land. It's the work of a volcano on one of the Galapagos Islands. Officials in Ecuador say there's no threat to any people or the region's famed giant tortoises. The volcano last erupted 26 years ago.

I'm Kyra Phillips at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Now stay tuned for Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

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