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Libby Pleads Not Guilty to All Charges; Gang of 14 Meets on Supreme Court Nominee Alito; Bush to Face Chavez at Summit of Americas; Winter Looms in South Asia Earthquake Zone; Men Detained For Prayer

Aired November 03, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: The vice president's former right-hand man vows to fight the charges against him. Could the White House get caught in the crossfire of Scooter Libby's legal battle?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: And personal liberty versus public safety. Some Muslim football fans say the FBI committed a personal foul against them at a Giants game.

From CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Daryn Kagan.

HARRIS: And I'm Tony Harris.

You will see Kyra Phillips tonight on "NEWSNIGHT."

This hour of CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

A not guilty plea entered today by Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, Lewis Libby in the CIA leak scandal. Libby's charged with lying and obstructing justice in the investigation into who leaked the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame. Plame is the wife of Bush administration critic former ambassador Joe Wilson.

Libby appeared in court today for the first time since being indicted last week. His lawyer says Libby intends to fight the charges tooth and nail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TED WELLS, LIBBY'S ATTORNEY: Mr. Libby has pled not guilty to each and every count in the indictment. In pleading not guilty, he has declared to the world that he is innocent. He has declared that he intends to fight the charges in the indictment, and he has declared that he wants to clear his good name. And he wants a jury trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: The Libby case ultimately could result in testimony from Vice President Cheney and other Bush administration officials. For more on that and other key issues, we turn to CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, good to see you.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Tony. HARRIS: Ted Wells, the new face and voice for the defense, what do we know about him?

TOOBIN: Oh, he is a great lawyer. When I was a prosecutor, he tried a case in my courthouse. He represented a congressman in our federal court in Brooklyn, and the case went so badly for the government that the judge dismissed the case before it even went to the jury.

He successfully represented secretary of Agriculture Mike Espy from the Clinton administration in a trial in Washington. He really is a go-to guy with -- for people who are in trouble in high -- in high visibility cases.

HARRIS: Demeanor in the courtroom, what does this tell us about the approach of the defense?

TOOBIN: Well, I think it suggests a very aggressive defense. He raised an issue today which is legally very complicated. As you know, as our listeners probably know, the core of this case is that Scooter Libby allegedly lied about his conversations with reporters.

Ted Wells raised the issue today of, we want to get the reporters' notes, we want to interview the reporter, we want to know more about what they did. This is the case where Judith Miller of "The New York Times" went to prison for 85 days rather than cooperate.

He said it's going to be legally complicated to get at these notes. He's right about that. But they're going to fight to get them, and it will be one of the many sideshows that will be necessary to be revolved before this case goes to trial.

HARRIS: Fitzgerald has all the material that you're talking about, all of these notes and communications and e-mails and whatever else. Doesn't Fitzgerald have this information? Isn't it simply a point in discovery where this information is turned over?

TOOBIN: Well, he has what he thinks is necessary.

HARRIS: Oh.

TOOBIN: The defense may say, well, you think that's enough. We don't think that's enough. We want more. We want records of conversations with other people who might have relevant information.

That's the kind of discovery dispute that goes on in criminal trials. But here, because you're dealing with reporters, you have the complexity of the First Amendment and freedom of the speech issues, and freedom of the press. That's why it's going to be very complicated for Judge Reggie Walton (ph) to resolve.

HARRIS: Well, and, you know, I was asking you earlier if you this would be a simple case, if it's pretty straightforward. And I guess I understand now why it isn't.

TOOBIN: Well, the pretrial is going to be very complicated. I thought it was interesting that Pat Fitzgerald, the prosecutor, today said he thought he would only need two weeks to put on his case for the government.

The trial itself, I don't think, will be all that complicated. But getting there, when you talk about these First Amendment issues, when you talk about issues relating to classified information, allowing the defense to see it and use it in open court, that's going to be very complicated.

HARRIS: Jeffrey, how difficult is that going to be? How complicated to manage that whole gathering and reviewing of classified information?

TOOBIN: It will take months, Tony. First of all, all the defense lawyers have to get security clearances to be allowed to see it themselves. Then they have to find office space that is secure where classified information that can be stored.

HARRIS: Oh boy.

TOOBIN: Then they have to go to the judge and say, we want this classified information to be used at trial. Then he's got to hold hearings. It will take months.

HARRIS: Oh my goodness. Jeffrey Toobin.

TOOBIN: But it's good for the legal analysis business.

KAGAN: It keeps Jeff employed.

HARRIS: Good for us, too, I suppose, on some level.

TOOBIN: Most things that are bad for the world are good for me.

HARRIS: Oh.

KAGAN: As long as we understand the formula there. Thank you.

HARRIS: That's right.

Jeffrey, thank you.

And reserving judgment on Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito, that is the word from one Democratic member of a bipartisan group of senators known as the Gang of 14. Those 14 senators could play a huge role in determining whether the conservative Alito runs smack into a filibuster. They held their first meeting on Alito's nomination today on Capitol Hill.

With that, CNN's Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry.

Ed, how did it go?

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's very interesting. You're right, as a group they said they're reserving judgment, but individually a lot of members of this moderate Gang of 14, seven Democrats, seven Republicans, are saying very positive things about Judge Alito. That's a very good sign for him.

Very early in the process. But still, it's a good sign for him.

He's doing a lot of meet-and-greets with other senators, some of them moderates, but also others as well today. And we're hearing some good reports about those meetings, as well. Certainly doing better than Harriet Miers was in terms of the one-on-one interaction with senators.

Why it's so pivotal for him to do so well with the Gang of 14 moderates is the fact that they were the ones who pulled the Senate back from the brink of a nuclear showdown over President Bush's lower court nominees back in the spring. And we find ourselves once again -- the Senate on the precipice of possibly another nuclear showdown.

Democrats throwing around the possibility of a filibuster of this nomination. Republican leaders insisting that they would then respond by using the so-called nuclear option. What that means is they would then push to change the Senate rules in order to prevent filibusters or blocking motions from being used to stop judicial nominations.

The question now, will the Gang of 14, once again, pull the Senate back from the brink? Again, they would not make a grand pronouncement, but take a listen to moderate Democrat Joe Lieberman and what he had to say about this nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: If any of us ever come to a point where we are thinking that we may in this nomination have seen something that looks like extraordinary circumstances, that we will come back to the group and reason together. That's the spirit in which the Gang of 14 came together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: So you hear Senator Lieberman there basically suggesting he does not see extraordinary circumstances right now. It could happen down the road. That's essentially that phrase, code for, is this nominee out of the mainstream?

There have been other members of the Gang of 14 who have come out in more blunt -- then, actually Lieberman said they do not think it is extraordinary circumstances. They do not think a filibuster would be justified in this case. And that's why things are looking pretty good for Judge Alito at this point -- Tony.

HARRIS: Sounds like it. CNN Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry.

Ed, thank you.

HENRY: Sure.

KAGAN: And while all this is happening, President Bush this hour is flying to Argentina for a two-day hemisphere summit. Mr. Bush departed this morning and is due to arrive in about four hours in the seaside town of Mar del Plata.

Leftist demonstrators are already on the scene to protest the president's ongoing push for a free trade zone covering North and South America. Thousands of Argentine soldiers and police are there to keep things under control.

So, given all the turmoil back in Washington surrounding the CIA leak probe, the change of scenery might do the president some good. But questions about the affair are likely to follow Mr. Bush all the way to Argentina.

With the story from there, our White House Correspondent Elaine Quijano.

Hello.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon to you, Daryn.

And it is here in this picturesque spot of Mar del Plata that President Bush is on his way. As you mentioned, a 10.5 hour flight from Washington, D.C. And it's here, far away from those questions of the CIA leak investigation, that President Bush hopes to turn this the spotlight on to economic issues in this hemisphere. Also focusing the spotlight on the importance of supporting democratic institutions.

Now, over the next two days, the president will be joining with 33 other leaders, taking part in the Summit of the Americas. But those CIA leak questions persist.

In fact, yesterday his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, was asked how the indictment of Scooter Libby might affect the U.S.' credibility abroad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Scooter Libby is a fine person. And he has served the president, the vice president well. There is now an indictment. And he is entitled to the benefit of the presumption of innocence.

The president, in any administration, makes foreign policy. And it's particularly true in this administration. The president makes foreign policy. And it is the president who is going on this trip, and he will be bringing his foreign policy with him, and will be talking about it with countries in the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: And Daryn, as you mentioned, while the president may be leaving the tumult in Washington, his visit here is expected to spark a massive protest tomorrow, as you mentioned. Police are gearing up for that demonstration, which will be led by a legendary Argentine soccer player.

Now, also expected to attend, someone who is of course considered very unfriendly to the United States, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. But administration officials are insisting that any protests that take place will not get in the way of discussions among the leaders attending this summit -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Elaine, let's talk a little bit more about the scandal he leaves behind. Karl Rove, his deputy chief of staff, was not charged in the indictment, that went after Lewis Libby -- Scooter Libby. And yet, he's still said to be under investigation and on the hot seat.

And in today's "Washington Post," a number of unnamed sources in the White House saying that Rove is a distraction, that he needs to step aside, and that even if he didn't do anything illegal, what he might have done would have been unethical and that he needs to go.

Any comment from the White House on Karl Rove?

QUIJANO: Well, of course nothing official, Daryn. And what we do know from our previous reporting is that certainly President Bush has expressed disappointment or clearly seems disappointed about the performance of top White House staff. And that there certainly could be some changes in the works as far as staff goes perhaps by the end of the year.

But at this point, White House insiders, as well as those outside of the White House, are saying that right now there are no discussions within the White House about Karl Rove leaving. And as long as he is not indicted, there is no expectation, Daryn, that he'll step down -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Elaine Quijano joining us from Mar del Plata.

Thank you.

Well, let's pick up on something Elaine was going to there. Notable by his absence at the summit in Argentina will be the longtime U.S. nemesis, Cuba's Fidel Castro. But filling in as the number one thorn in Washington's side is someone that Elaine mentioned, President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.

More now from CNN's Lucia Newman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN HAVANA BUREAU CHIEF (voice over): In private, but especially in public, Venezuela's fiery leftist leader can't stop warning the world about Mr. Danger, alias George W. Bush.

HUGO CHAVEZ, ARGENTINE PRESIDENT (through translator): "Danger, danger," says the dangerous one. And they say we're the danger.

NEWMAN: Whether in Havana with his alter ego, Fidel Castro...

FIDEL CASTRO, CUBAN PRESIDENT: Hasta la victoria...

CHAVEZ: Hasta la victoria... NEWMAN: ... or at home, Hugo Chavez is always on the defensive and the offensive when it comes to the United States, which he refers to as "The Empire." The word "evil" is implicit.

In August, President Chavez even took part in a mock anti-empire trial that put President Bush on the stand.

CHAVEZ (through translator): So today, Mr. President, members of the court, you are passing judgment on Mr. Danger, which means passing judgment on U.S. imperialism.

NEWMAN: The White House sees Chavez as a bad influence at best, a threat to regional stability, a populist Latin leader who is using his nation's vast oil wealth as a revolutionary weapon to counter U.S. influence in the hemisphere. For this, Chavez makes no apologies, but insists his recent purchase of 100,000 Russian-made assault rifles is purely for defensive purchases, since he claims President Bush insults him, wants him dead and has plans for invading Venezuela.

(on camera): You say that the White House treats you without respect. But you, too -- I mean, every time you refer to the United States you talk about "the empire," the world's most terrorist government. You know, it has to be a two-way street.

CHAVEZ (through translator): Each one of those statements of mine are in response to the imperial aggression. I'm telling the truth when I say that the coup attempt against me, against Venezuela, which took place just a few meters from here, and which cost so many lives, that coup attempt was planned in Washington, Lucia. We have proof.

NEWMAN: The government denies it.

CHAVEZ (through translator): They can deny it all they want, but we have irrefutable evidence, videos, files, witnesses.

NEWMAN (voice over): U.S. officials dismiss it all...

PAT ROBERTSON, RELIGIOUS BROADCASTER: If he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war.

NEWMAN: ... although comments like these from a close Bush ally don't help.

Whether real or imagined, Chavez is using the imperial threat card to his advantage to rally support for what he calls a socialist alternative for the millennium.

(on camera): Considering how unpopular the U.S. president is in Latin America, Chavez' message does have some resonance. So the bigger question right now might be, who is the bigger threat to who?

Lucia Newman, CNN, Havana.

(END VIDEOTAPE) KAGAN: The Pentagon calls them a weapon of choice for insurgents.

HARRIS: And ahead on LIVE FROM, improvised explosive devices. This afternoon, the Pentagon released new details on a plan to fight them.

KAGAN: And following an e-mail trail at FEMA. What do newly- released communications from former director Mike Brown reveal about his leadership after Hurricane Katrina? We'll let you draw your own conclusions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Former FEMA director Michael Brown is under fire again over his performance or lack thereof during Hurricane Katrina. Democrat Congressman Charlie Melancon of Louisiana has posted e-mail on his Web site which he says clearly indicates Brown's lack of leadership in the hours and days after Katrina made landfall.

In an e-mail sent this morning -- actually sent the morning of the hurricane to a top FEMA official, Brown wrote, "Can I quit now? Can I come home?"

In another one sent a few days after Katrina devastated the area, Brown wrote, "I'm trapped now. Please rescue me."

And then four days after the storm hit, Brown received an e-mail on getting urgently needed medical supplies to victims. "Mike, Mickey, and other medical equipment people have a 42-foot trailer full of beds, wheelchairs, oxygen concentrators, et cetera. And they are wanting to take them where they can be used but need direction. If you can have someone contact him and let him know if he can be of service he would appreciate it. Know you're busy and really want to help."

Well, Melancon said that Brown responded four days later by forwarding the e-mail to subordinates and asking, "Can we use these people?"

HARRIS: Boy. And this e-mail on the day of the storm, Brown responds to a message from a FEMA official complimenting him on his clothing. "I got it at Nordstrom's. Are you proud of me?"

A short time later he wrote, "If you look at my lovely FEMA attire, you'll really vomit. I'm a fashion god."

In the immediate aftermath of the storm, as thousands struggled to stay alive, another e-mail exchange expressing concern about Brown's attire. It apparently had to do with how Brown looked in short sleeves compared to President Bush.

You can see the difference in this picture. We'll put it up in just a second here.

And here's what Brown's press secretary wrote two days later. "Please roll up the sleeves of your shirt, all shirts. Even the president rolled his sleeves to just below the elbow. In this crisis and on TV you just need to look more hard-working. Roll up the sleeves."

Congressman Melancon says he got the e-mails from Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. He turned them over following a request from Melancon and Republican Congressman Tom Davis, who is the chairman of a House committee investigating the response to Katrina.

Brown resigned in September but is still on the payroll. CNN was unable to reach him for a response to the e-mails.

A good reminder, when you're sending an e-mail, you never know who might be reading it.

HARRIS: Exactly.

KAGAN: Meanwhile, in New Orleans, more than two months after Katrina hit, some people are still waiting for help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am very, very, very disgusted with this place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are you disgusted with?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The governor and the mayor and FEMA and all of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: The post-hurricane frustration factor ahead on LIVE FROM.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange. A huge verdict in a major drug trial. I'll tell you what the jury said about Vioxx maker Merck coming up on LIVE FROM.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Let's take a look at what's happening "Now in the News."

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is urging governments to compensate poultry farmers whose flocks are infected with bird flu. Without compensation, he says, farmers won't have an incentive to report their birds as sick.

In Baltimore, Maryland, an elementary school is evacuated, and more than two dozen children sent to the hospital. It happened after a group of students stumbled on a bees nest in the woods near the school around lunchtime.

The angry swarm attacked and began stinging. One child experienced an allergic reaction. Fire officials ordered the school cleared and shut down.

Just another narco suspect? Hardly. Twenty-five-year-old Sean Timoney is accused of trying to purchase about 400 pounds of marijuana from a federal undercover agent in New York. It turns out he is the son of Miami police chief John Timoney.

And a sour note for the holiday season at Radio City Music Hall. The popular Christmas Spectacular launched today to the tune of recorded music. Musicians involved in a labor dispute tried to go back to work after going on strike yesterday. Management says they're still on strike until they sign a new contract.

HARRIS: And Daryn, right now we have some news coming out of the Pentagon. It concerns the effort to blunt the rising toll of American soldiers being killed in Iraq.

Quickly, let's go to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr.

Hi, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Tony.

Well, you know, the Pentagon's been concerned for a long time now about these IEDs, improvised explosive devices, and suicide bombs that have killed so many U.S. troops in Iraq.

Today, a rather revealing admission at the highest levels that now the top senior leadership does believe there is more that they can and should be doing to try to help the military on the ground find these explosive devices before they injure or kill U.S. soldiers.

There is a series of high-level recommendations that are going to go to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, possibly to overhaul the effort and put a new three-star general in charge today. The director of operations for the joint staff talked about all of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. JAMES T. CONWAY, JOINT CHIEFS DIR. OF OPERATIONS: There are recommendations that have gone before the Joint Chiefs of Staff and how to further enhance what they're doing. There is no shortage of funding to the effort and there's no shortage of emphasis coming out of theater that encourages us to come to a solution.

And it has been discussed, at least. The decision has not been made, but it has been discussed that perhaps adding a three-star oversight to the effort might further enhance its ability to get things done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: What General Conway is talking about, of course, is over the last several weeks these IEDs, these improvised explosive devices, that have been so tragically killing so many American troops, they are becoming more sophisticated, more lethal, a matter of much greater concern.

General Conway saying at this point in the war in Iraq, it is those IEDs that pose the greatest single threat, essentially, to U.S. troops. It is the one thing that the military just has not been able to get a handle on -- Tony.

HARRIS: And, Barbara, do we know why?

STARR: Well, it's an interesting challenge. You know, they're going to look for new technologies, new tactics, new procedures, but what so many military commanders say is, look, how do you stop insurgents from going out in the road and laying bombs, laying weapons?

General Conway talking about two historic examples in Israel with the suicide bombers and in Northern Ireland. In both those places it was a challenge for many, many years, so it's difficult to predict how successful the U.S. military might be, as well, Tony.

HARRIS: CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara, thank you.

KAGAN: And now to New Orleans. The Ninth Ward, Algiers Point, both part of hurricane devastated New Orleans. But that's where the similarity ends and the paradox begins. CNN's Dan Simon has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, the famous words of Charles Dickens in "A Tale of Two Cities." Here in New Orleans that 19th century text resonates as it feels like two cities have emerged from Hurricane Katrina. One filled with anger and desperation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody's trying to help. Nobody's trying to do nothing.

SIMON: But here across the river on what locals call the west bank, they have different problems, the kind you don't mind having, like where to get coffee and go shopping. Here it's about progress and optimism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest complaint we have is we never know when the garbage is being picked up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Big deal, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, so you know, it's all relative.

SIMON: Don and Joy Paolo live across the river from the devastation. We found the retired couple relaxing on their porch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A play on words, this is the west bank, but people here call it the "blessed bank." The Paolo bounced back quickly after evacuating to Ohio. While they came back to mold and a busted heater, their problems seemed minuscule.

DON PAOLO, ALGIERS POINT RESIDENT: One of the biggest problems we have over here truthfully is traffic.

SIMON: There is no traffic in other parts of town. This is the devastated Lower Ninth Ward, restaurants, gas stations closed, neighborhoods vacant, filled with trash.

Contrast that with Algiers, where carved pumpkins dot the landscape and most of the stores, even little cafes, are open for business.

DAISY PETERS, NINTH WARD RESIDENT: We just isolated. We are like on an island over here. We isolated from the whole city.

SIMON: Daisy Peters' feelings are understandable. Her house in ruins. Other than the help of a few family members clearing away debris, she's on her own.

PETERS: I am very, very, very disgusted with this place.

SIMON (on camera): Who are you disgusted with?

PETERS: The governor, and the mayor, and FEMA and all of them.

SIMON: You feel like they just don't care.

PETERS: I feel like they do not care.

SIMON (voice-over): Government officials say they do care, but the magnitude of destruction makes rebuilding very difficult. There's no drinkable water and little if any electricity here, and no plan yet for restoring the neighborhood.

PETERS: I'm not giving this house away. If somebody -- they don't want to rebuild down here, somebody need to see me about this house, because I'm not giving it to nobody.

SIMON: Daisy decides to take a rest. They're also resting at the Paolo house, but in a different way.

Dan Simon, CNN, New Orleans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And now, there is a new warning to people moving back to New Orleans. There could be serious flooding if another hurricane hits the city before the end of the tropical season ends this month.

Engineers testifying before a Senate panel say that repairs to the city's levees may not be able to keep the city from being flooded again. They say repair work is now better, but the initial rebuilding process was done with perhaps substandard materials and little or no engineering guidance.

Joining us now with his take on the New Orleans' levees is Raymond Seed, an engineering professor at the University of California at Berkeley. He took part in a National Science Foundation study investigating the levee failures. Professor, good afternoon, thanks for being here with us.

PROF. RAYMOND SEED, UNIV. OF CALIF.-BERKELEY: Good afternoon.

KAGAN: Some of the testimony I'm looking at says not so much the problem with the levees as the soil underneath it, that that's what really gave way.

SEED: Three of the main failure sections downtown in the canal zone, the failures were in the foundations beneath the levees.

KAGAN: And so as we go forward, what needs to be done?

SEED: Well, the first thing they're working on right now is the emergency breach repairs and interim sections. They have -- the Corps of Engineers has plans for longer term repairs, but they're very much stretched right now in terms of resources and also simply time.

KAGAN: Yes, and what about this news that if there was another tropical storm -- and, again, hurricane season ends on November 30th. If another storm hit before then, what's been patched up might not hold.

SEED: It's not a hurricane secure system yet in the St. Bernard Parish and Ninth Ward zones. And New Orleans East is also not fully refurbished at this point in time. It will be a race to get it done for next June when the next hurricane season starts.

KAGAN: Even by next year. Now, even looking forward, is there any kind of consensus about how these levees should be rebuilt and to what level?

SEED: That's being studied by a number of teams right now and there is no affirmed consensus. At the moment, they're doing emergency work as quickly as they can. But the longer term repairs are still an open issue.

KAGAN: What would you suggest?

SEED: We think that the system needs to be reengineered in terms of how it gets built in the first place. We're seeing a lot of interaction between many agencies and if you have a large ring of perhaps 80 miles of levees and the pieces all have to fit together, different groups have to interact very nicely to make the edges secure where they join. There is a need to better coordinate the overall system. We're hoping that we can reengineer how the system gets built as we reengineer how it's being built.

KAGAN: But does that take even more time? SEED: It can take more time. It's a question of the federal and local government will.

KAGAN: But you're saying, really, too many chefs trying to cook up the new levee system?

SEED: There are far too many chefs trying to make one broth.

KAGAN: And the potential -- what I hear you describing is, if the whole system doesn't work well together, then it's only as strong as its weakest link?

SEED: The great horror with levee systems is it only takes one flaw to obviate the entire mix. So it is a system which to be perfect at all locations.

KAGAN: What about funding?

SEED: Funding is both a federal and state issue but we don't sense a shortage of funding right now for the repair operations. We're more concerned about the administration and the engineering oversight.

KAGAN: And you would say that is the biggest challenges as we go ahead?

SEED: I think the biggest challenges right now are institutional. Getting adequate oversight, getting somebody put in charge who is responsible, and having the ability to ensure the entire system is compatible are the biggest challenges.

KAGAN: So, at the end of the day, it's going to come down to humans and how everyone gets along and works together.

SEED: At the end of the day, it will come down to humans, as it always does.

KAGAN: Yes, and the government. Even beyond all the nuts and bolts that you engineering professors like to study. Professor Seed, from Berkeley. Thank you so much -- Tony.

HARRIS: Wow, good information. How is the weather affecting the cleanup and the rebuilding of all of this and what about the rest of the country? Chad Myers is keeping an eye on all of it from the CNN Weather Center. Hi, Chad.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: And still ahead on LIVE FROM, a disaster in the making in the quake zone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tsunami didn't have winter coming. I mean, here we've just got this hammerblade that's going to come down very, very shortly. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Homeless, no shelters and winter is fast approaching. We'll update you on this deadly situation in Pakistan and Kashmir, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Live from B Control, everyone.

Nearly a month now since massive earthquakes struck South Asia, relief officials say another disaster looms. With tens of thousands people having died already, tens of thousands more are at risk from the treacherous mountain winter.

Bill Neely reports from Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NEELY, ITV NEWS REPORTER (voice-over): The helicopters are still busy here. But the weather is worsening. There are days they won't fly, and places they won't go.

Into one of these today came Save the Children, driving a convoy of 200 tents 6,000 feet up into one of Kashmir's most remote corners. There waiting, hundreds of villagers. This aid the difference between life and death. One man at least has suffered enough death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His seven kids, one mom and one wife.

NEELY (on camera): He lost his seven children?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven children. He lost his seven children, plus his wife and his mom.

NEELY (voice-over): Even the blind walked for hours across a mountain to get here.

The tents, blankets and clothes their only protection against a brutal winter. It's a race here against time and against the heavy snows that are on their way.

(on camera): In about two weeks' time, these mountains and this valley will be covered in snow. And the logic of survival, then, is brutally simple: anyone without shelter will die.

The problem is, there aren't enough tents here or anywhere else. So a second disaster that the U.N. says could kill thousands isn't just looming, it's highly likely.

(voice-over): These children survived the earthquake, 20,000 didn't. The coming cold and hunger could carry off thousands more. So they struggle away with their tents and even the aid workers who have been through the tsunami struggle to cope here.

SAM RUSH, SAVE THE CHILDREN: Logistically it's worse, without a doubt. It's getting high in mountains. The roads that we came up now was pretty perilous, to say the least. But we could get vehicles up.

We are talking about a lot of places that have got no vehicle access whatsoever. Then we're talking meal trains (ph) and helicopters. And we are really running out of time. It's quite a serious situation.

NEELY (on camera): So the tsunami was much easier to deal with than this?

RUSH: The tsunami didn't have winter coming. I mean, here we've just got this hammer blow that's going to come down very, very shortly.

NEELY (voice-over): The first disaster was an act of god. A second can be prevented. But time and aid money is running out.

As we left, night fell, and the first snow fell, too. It didn't settle, but it will soon. Pakistan's mountain people are braced for another terrible test.

Bill Neely, ITV News, Naganari, Kashmir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: There were speeches, smiles and handshakes. The Prince of Wales and his new bride continued to charm the Yanks. On their second day in Washington, Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall have toured the National Institutes of Health, where they chatted with a patient suffering from osteoporosis. And within the past hour, the National Building Museum, as well. That's where Prince Charles was praised for his commitment to classical architecture. Tonight the British ambassador will be their host.

Prince Charles' whirlwind American tour had some of us here scratching our heads. It sure doesn't seem like the royals come around here too often, and maybe that is just the case.

Here now, the facts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prince Charles' last official tour of the United States was in November of 1994. That was before he and Prince Diana divorced, but after they had stopped traveling together.

Prior to that, the couple paid a famous visit to Washington, D.C., in 1985. That was just a few years after they were married. Princess Diana danced with John Travolta at a White House dinner.

Prince William and Prince Harry made a memorable trip to the United States with their mother in 1995. They stayed at Goldie Hawn's cabin in Colorado. Queen Elizabeth herself has made only three official visits to the United States, 1957, 1976 and for a visit with President George H.W. Bush in 1991.

If you're wondering about the first time a reigning British monarch made a trip to the United States? It was when King George VI paid a visit to President Franklin Roosevelt in 1939.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: OK, everybody knows the holidays are right around the corner and nothing says I love you like a stun gun. I love you, zap?

Susan Lisovicz has the story live from the New York Stock Exchange. Susan, what gives?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The gift that keeps on giving, apparently, Tony. TASER, the company, hopes people in need of personal protection will consider a new consumer model stun gun.

The company says the weapon is, in fact, ideal for anyone who comes and goes at odd hours, which we describe probably any one of us who works at CNN. The x26c weighs just seven ounces, is a bit bigger than a cell phones and looks like a pistol.

Like it's big brother, which is used by many police department, the gun packs a 50,000-volt shock. The price tag, also a little shocking, 1,000 bucks. That includes a holster, a DVD and a voucher for one-on-one training with a certified instructor.

In an effort to deter criminal use, buyers have it register the gun and when it's fired, it releases confetti-like paper. Each piece bearing the weapon's serial number. It's not a party, it's really just to identify the user, track it back to you.

HARRIS: Gotcha, gotcha Susan.

Fed Chief Alan Greenspan gave some testimony today. What were a few of the highlights?

LISOVICZ: Well, he was pretty upbeat, Tony, on the economy saying that it has good momentum despite the impact of those two devastating hurricanes in the Gulf Coast. But, Mr. Greenspan did warn that the inflation picture has become more uncertain, signaling the central bank will continue to raise interest rates.

This was Greenspan's last scheduled appearance before Congress after 18 years at the helm of the Federal Reserve. If confirmed, Ben Bernanke will take the reigns from him early next year.

Investors also have an upbeat assessment of things today. Stocks are higher, off their highs for the day, but, still on the upside.

The DOW industrial's up 40 points, NASDAQ up 14 or two-thirds of a percent.

That's the latest from Wall Street, more LIVE FROM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: A quarterback may be expected to resort to an occasional Hail Mary, go long.

KAGAN: You'd expect that.

HARRIS: On occasions.

KAGAN: OK, but what's the protocol for football fans who say they want to offer up their own prayers?

HARRIS: CNN's Mary Snow has more on a flap over fans who say they got busted by the FBI for expressing their faith at a football game.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mostafa Kahlifa and Sami Shaban say they are walking a fine line between personal liberty and public security.

Both men say they and three friends were profiled by authorities after praying at a football game on Giants Stadium, September 19th.

The New Orleans Saints were playing the New York Giants for the first time since Hurricane Katrina and former President Bush was on hand. The men said they were detained by the FBI because they were seen praying.

MOSTAFA KAHLIFA, DETAINED AT GIANTS STADIUM: Let's be real here. If somebody with my description, you know, does anything, even scratches their ear, people get nervous. All right. You know, but what is that profile? That's the question.

SNOW: But the FBI says they weren't profiled. It says, quote, it had nothing to do with who they were, it had everything to do with where they were. The owners of the stadium say someone reported suspicious behavior.

GEORGE ZOFFINGER, N.J. SPORTS & EXPOSITION AUTHORITY: Our security personnel observed that they entered the area that is by the air duct and they called it to the attention of the FBI, which is the proper procedure.

SAMI SHABAN, DETAINED AT GIANTS STADIUM: If we were near an air ventilation shaft, we had no idea of it.

SNOW: Shaban, who's a second-year law student, says, after the group finished praying, they went to their seats. Later on in the game, they say guards escorted them out and took them to a small room where they were questioned by FBI agents.

SHABAN: What mosque do you go to? They even asked one of us, do you know the blind Sheikh. SNOW: That's a reference Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahma, who is in prison for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and had followers in New Jersey.

So far, the men have not filed lawsuits. The head of a civil rights advocacy group for Muslims says he encouraged the men to speak out to raise awareness.

WISSAM NASR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CAIR-NY: We don't want to go to war with the Giants, we don't want to go to war with the FBI. We just want the American public to understand that Islam is a part of this country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (on camera): The question is, why speak out now if this happened back in September. The Council on American-Islamic Relations says the news conference coincides with an Islamic holiday marking the end of Ramadan on Thursday. It says it's hoping that increased awareness of religious practices will find a positive solution.

Mary Snow, CNN, New York.

KAGAN: And that's going to wrap up the Thursday edition of LIVE FROM. Double-shift work for me.

HARRIS: Holding it down.

KAGAN: Coming back for more tomorrow.

HARRIS: Absolutely. I'm Tony Harris. Now, Wolf Blitzer is live in THE SITUATION ROOM.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.

Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world, to bring you today's top stories.

Happening now, it's almost 3 p.m. here in Washington, where Vice President Cheney's former chief aide hears the charges against him in the CIA leak case. How damaging could a public trial be for the Bush administration?

On Capitol Hill, a proposed bill to build a barrier along the border with Mexico. A two-thousand mile fence to keep out illegal immigrants. Will it work? Is it right? I'll ask one of it's sponsors.

And it's 11 p.m. in Baghdad, where Saddam Hussein's soldiers are being asked to rejoin the army.

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