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Jordan Bombings Death Toll Stands at 56; Interview With Author Eric Margolis; Islamic Bomb-Maker Killed in Indonesia

Aired November 10, 2005 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: It's the top of the hour and we are talking about extraordinary outrage in Jordan. Hundreds of people poured in the capital, Amman, protesting deadly suicide bombings in three international hotels yesterday -- the target of that anger, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of that group that claimed responsibility, al Qaeda in Iraq.
The death toll in the attacks now stands at 56, but officials say, it's expected to rise. According to the AP, Jordanian authorities report the arrest of several Iraqis in a bid by security forces to capture anyone behind the attacks.

We are covering the story on several fronts.

We begin with CNN's Hala Gorani in Amman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There were demonstrations of defiance in Jordan some 24 hours after three suicide bombers struck hotels associated with Western interests.

They were chanting, "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, you lowlife." There is a sense here that the mood is shifting very much against those who perpetrate acts of violence in the name of politics or in the name of religion. On the investigation front, officials are saying that three suicide bombers detonated themselves, that they walked into these three hotels, the Radisson, the Grand Hyatt, and the Days Inn, and blew themselves up.

The latest death toll, 56 killed, more than 120 injured. As this country digests this wave of violence, officials here are saying that they will catch those who are responsible for these acts of terrorism and bring them to justice.

Hala Gorani, CNN, Amman, Jordan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Now, we're getting word now, after we were under the -- the understanding that the U.S. government officials would not be called in to help in that investigation in Amman, Jordan, now we're being told a small contingent of an FBI crime laboratory, some of the personnel left Washington for Amman to help in the probe of the terrorist bombings at those three U.S.-owned hotels. This happened, I guess, just hours after Jordan said it did not require assistance in the case. That request was received at FBI headquarters. So, right now, a contingent of FBI crime lab personnel headed to help investigate what happened there in Amman, Jordan.

Now, Islamic militants are angered, not just by Jordan's ties with the United States, but also by Jordan's ties with Israel. Jordan and Israel have a 148-mile common border. And, for many years, that border was a line of conflict. Jordan joined other Arab countries in wars against Israel in 1948 and 1967.

And when Israel won the 1967 war, well, Jordan lost control of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The first sign of a thaw between the two nations came in 1988, when Jordan renounced its claim to the West Bank. Six years later, in 1994, Jordan became just the second nation to sign a peace treaty with Israel, right after Egypt.

Jordan and Israel continue to cooperate on a number of matters. And, just last month, health officials met to discuss joint efforts to fight bird flu.

And, in the streets of Amman, Jordan, tonight, cries of "Burn in hell, al-Zarqawi" echoed throughout the dark, this in the wake of a deadly terrorist bombing claiming -- or claimed, rather, by al Qaeda in Iraq, led by the Jordanian-born al-Zarqawi.

From Washington, CNN's David Ensor reports on why officials believe that claim is valid.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Even before the claim, U.S. intelligence officials were saying they suspect Zarqawi for several reasons.

(voice-over): First, the method of the attacks, suicide bombs, used as Zarqawi's terrorists have done to such deadly effect in neighboring Iraq.

REUEL MARC GERECHT, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: You don't need very many young men to have a pretty effective, pretty lethal terrorist cell -- certainly, if you have young men who are willing to incinerate themselves.

ENSOR: Second, the history -- Zarqawi's men killed American diplomat Laurence Foley in 2002. They were behind the rocket attacks in the Port of Aqaba that killed two just months ago, according to U.S. officials, and they tried, but failed, to attack Jordanian intelligence in April of 2004.

And, third, the Jordanian terrorist leader affiliated with al Qaeda has repeatedly stated his intention of hitting his homeland. In an April 2004 statement, he said -- quote -- "We will have more fierce confrontations with the Jordanian Government. The chapters of some of these confrontations have ended, but what is coming is more vicious and bitter, God willing." Are the attacks part of a pattern? Like other al Qaeda attacks, they were simultaneous against soft targets, using suicide killers. And two of the hotels in Amman, the Radisson and the Hyatt, have been targeted unsuccessfully before.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: One of the things you learn about al Qaeda is, once they have tried something, it stays on the shelf. And they have done some reconnaissance. They have thought about it. And, yes, they may have been foiled once, but a little bit of their job is done if they want to go back to that target. The Trade Center is, of course, a good example of that.

ENSOR: Finally, U.S. intelligence officials note the brutality of the attack. Many of the dead were celebrating a wedding at one of the hotels.

(on camera): Al Qaeda's number two man recently warned Zarqawi in a letter that U.S. intelligence says it captured that his attacks on innocent Iraqis could lose the battle for Muslim hearts and minds in that country. It would seem, in Jordan, too, that Zarqawi, or whoever did this, isn't concerned about that issue.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: A lot of people showing their hatred towards Zarqawi right now. These are protesters, live pictures, in downtown, Amman, Jordan, standing outside of one of the hotels where those explosions took place yesterday -- actually, Muslims speaking up, calling Zarqawi a lowlife, calling for his head, and calling for an end to his reign of terror -- as you know, al Qaeda taking credit for those explosions, Zarqawi, the most closely tied to the organization there, claiming responsibility.

Meanwhile, the bombings in Jordan yesterday took place at a wedding reception at the Radisson Hotel. You just saw that hotel. And there are heartbreaking pictures now that were coming forward. And they were taken just before that bomb went off. The first photo shows the bride and the groom. They survived. But, in the second photo, the bride and groom are joined by their fathers. Both of those men died in that blast, along with several other relatives.

Hundreds of guests were attending that reception. And the groom says that explosion occurred just as he and his bride were entering the room. One guest told a reporter -- quote -- "Terrorism has robbed us of our joy."

The hotel bombings are just the latest sign al Qaeda may be turning its attention from heavily secured sites, like airports, to softer targets.

CNN Homeland Security correspondent Jeanne Meserve reports that hotels, schools, even discos, may be on the hit list.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Terrorists hit a school in Beslan, Russia. Three hundred and thirty- one hostages die, including 186 children.

Hotels in Bali, Indonesia -- the death toll is 202.

A disco in Tel Aviv, Israel -- 20 die.

Trains in London and Madrid -- 223 die, along with the suicide bombers.

All of these were so easy to attack, so easy because they were so accessible to the public, including terrorists. It is possible to harden these so-called soft targets. We have seen it in aviation since the 9/11 attacks.

RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you close off the different ways to get in, except for a very limited portals. Then -- and you screen everybody coming in those portals. You ask for identification. You run them through a -- metal detectors. You run them through X-ray machines, their bags. You go through every bag individually.

MESERVE: We have seen the temporary hardening of security around large public events, like the Fourth of July celebration on the Washington Mall and the political conventions.

We're seeing it right now around New York City hotels in response to the Amman bombing. But consider the number of places the public congregates, shopping malls, movie theaters, transit hubs, museums. Securing them all would be impossible and, in some respects, undesirable.

FALKENRATH: It's just too costly, in terms of the way want to live. We don't want to live that way in this country.

MESERVE (on camera): When terrorists have hit soft targeting, killing the innocent, it has often provoked public backlash, but it hasn't stopped them from doing it again and again.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: And, after years of calm, how and why did terrorists succeed in Jordan yesterday? And what can other countries learn from those attacks?

We are going to get some insight from a journalist Eric Margolis next.

The news keeps coming. And we will keep bringing it to you -- more LIVE FROM straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: Now, for years, Jordan's capital of Amman was an island of stability in a region torn by violence in the war in Iraq. And that was due, in part, to the country's tough intelligence services.

It all changed with the suicide bombings at three Amman hotels yesterday. Several terrorist plots in the past had failed. Why did this one succeed?

Joining us to talk about it, journalist Eric Margolis -- he's the author of the book "War at the Top of the World: The Struggle for Afghanistan, Kashmir and Tibet." He also knows a lot about Amman, Jordan.

Eric, great to see you.

This -- this suicide bombing, first time to happen in Amman, Jordan -- is this a homegrown, local problem that's springing up?

ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR, "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD: THE STRUGGLE FOR AFGHANISTAN, KASHMIR AND TIBET": Well, the Jordanian authorities are hoping that this was done but Abu Musab al-Zarqawi from Iraq and it was done by Iraqis, as some previous attacks -- or attempted attacks -- have been done.

They don't want it to be a local, homegrown group of terrorists who have launched these attacks. It would be very bad news for the Hashemite kingdom, because it would indicate that Jordan, which has a population that 60 percent to 70 percent of them are Palestinians, who are not at all friendly to the -- to the government and who support the resistance in Iraq, that there's unrest inside the -- the kingdom of Jordan.

PHILLIPS: So, you're saying, because there are so many Palestinians in this region, of course, they sympathize with the Iraqis and -- and the U.S. invasion of Iraq?

MARGOLIS: That's correct. There's -- there's great -- been -- and there's always been strong sympathy amongst Jordan's Palestinians for Saddam Hussein, for example, and even when he invaded Kuwait.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about the -- the protests that are taking place right now outside of the hotel -- very interesting -- calling for Zarqawi's head, calling him a lowlife, telling him to rot in hell. Looking at all these protests -- we're looking, actually, at live pictures right now.

I mean, it -- it keeps growing, Eric. Could this lead to Zarqawi? Could this lead to Osama bin Laden? -- because a lot of people are saying, you got Saddam Hussein. He was hiding in a spider hole. Why can't you get these other two?

MARGOLIS: Well, I -- I find it remarkable Zarqawi has not been caught yet.

But I think it's even more likely that he will soon be either caught or betrayed, possibly by his own people, possibly by people who are close to him, because, in Iraq, as well, there's a lot of anger and fury at Zarqawi, even among the Iraqi resistance forces who are fighting the Americans, saying, look, we're waging a struggle to fight a foreign invader. Zarqawi is polluting and -- and -- and -- and defaming our struggle by these -- these terrible terrorist attacks, which are just brutal, bloodletting things, and he's giving us all a bad name.

So, there are a lot of people after him. But this is not al Qaeda. This is not bin Laden's al Qaeda. This is a local bunch of terrorists who have simply adopted the name, sort of a -- a low-grade franchise.

PHILLIPS: Eric, and now we're seeing security at hotels in New York. We have been talking about that today, you know, a number of police departments around the country doing suicide bomb training. I have talked to a number of -- of men who head up various SWAT teams. They said, yes, we're training for suicide bombers.

Is this something -- I mean, you have got the first one now in Amman, Jordan. Now, here in the United States, do we need to start getting concerned about this threat?

MARGOLIS: Yes, we should be.

Hotels are -- are ideal target for terrorists, because they're soft. They're easy to get into. And they make very, very high- profile attacks, a strong psychological impact. You know, today, we hear -- I was just in China -- that the U.S. Embassy has warned hotels in China, where there are Americans, to watch out, because they have got gotten information there may be attacks there as well. So, we better be very vigilant.

PHILLIPS: You know, let me ask you, you just got back from there. There was a warning that went out, because, of course, the president is getting ready to go over there and give a speech. There was a warning that came out from the State Department.

And we talked about the Chinese Muslim population there in China, and that there is a community of -- of terrorists, believe it or not. Even Muslim Chinese al Qaeda members are at Guantanamo Bay right now.

Do we need to be worried about China?

MARGOLIS: No, I don't think we do, at all. And -- and I would not qualify the -- the Uighurs, the Chinese Muslims...

PHILLIPS: Right. That's exactly who I'm talking about.

MARGOLIS: ... in the same category as any other extremist groups.

They -- they're trying to get independence from China. Their homeland, like Tibet, is being swamp by Chinese immigration. It's strictly a local issue. We shouldn't confuse them with other groups. They're not anti-American so far, as far as we know, in spite the warnings about China -- separate issue.

PHILLIPS: So, what's next for you? What's your next trip? What's your next book?

MARGOLIS: Well, my next book -- I'm very -- the trouble is, I'm -- I'm so interested in the Middle East.

(LAUGHTER)

MARGOLIS: And it's probably going to be about the future of Iraq and the Fertile Crescent.

But, having just gotten back from three weeks of China, I'm so fascinated and imbued by events there. I have been covering China for 25 years as well. And, I mean, it's tomorrow happening there today. So, I'm scratching my head, trying to figure which to do the book about.

PHILLIPS: Well, you let us know once you have decided and once it's out. We got...

MARGOLIS: I would appreciate a viewer poll on this subject...

(LAUGHTER)

MARGOLIS: ... please.

PHILLIPS: OK. OK. You got it. We will do a survey for you, Eric.

(LAUGHTER)

MARGOLIS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: It's always a pleasure to have you on. We love your writing. And we appreciate you. Eric Margolis, thank you so much.

MARGOLIS: Many thanks.

PHILLIPS: All right.

And, once again, we're going take you back to Amman, Jordan -- live pictures, those protesters. I was talking about these protesters with Eric Margolis. Even he's even saying he's surprised Zarqawi has not been caught yet. But it's protests like these that could lead to the capture of Zarqawi -- Eric believing that, possibly, one of his own could turn on him, and these protests and Muslims standing up against terrorism could finally lead to the capture of Musab al- Zarqawi -- more LIVE FROM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: More trouble in the cash-strapped airline industry. Delta and its pilots are at odds.

Susan Lisovicz joining us live once from the New York Stock Exchange -- hi, Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra.

Well, Delta's pilots union is offering about $91 million in concessions to the bankrupt airline. But here's the problem. That's more than $200 million short of what Delta wants. The union filed an objection with bankruptcy court and said the airline's request for $325 million in concessions is not essential for Delta's reorganization.

According to the union, the company's proposal includes cutting pilot wages by nearly 20 percent and reducing vacation pay. Delta is counting on its employees to provide about one-third of $3 billion in cost savings it says it needs to ensure it's survival -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, what's the deal with GM? Talking about problems there, too.

LISOVICZ: A terrible year for GM as well. And GM now is having some trouble with its accounting -- the automaker restating its financial results for 2001. Because of mistakes, the numbers were overstated by as much as $400 million. It's accounting for the past five years is already under investigation by the SEC.

So far this year, GM has lost about $3 billion, as it grapples with high health care costs and the recent spike in gas prices that have turned consumers away from its lucrative SUVs and light trucks -- shares of GM right now skidding 3.5 percent.

But the rest of the market is driving up -- strong gains this afternoon. We see the Dow, at its high, up 105 points, or 1 percent -- lower oil prices helping out, below $58 a barrel today. The Nasdaq is up 18 points, or about 1 percent.

And that's the latest from Wall Street. Join me at the end of the hour for the final market numbers and the closing bell, live from the New York Stock Exchange.

We are back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Two live events we're monitoring for you right now -- first of all, these protests going on in Amman, Jordan.

They're declaring -- or asking -- or demanding the head of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the terrorist, of course, number one in Iraq right now, believed to be behind those explosions that took place in Amman, Jordan. The protests continue. We will continue to follow those.

And, also, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley getting ready to brief reporters. Actually, he just began. We're monitoring it right now. He's talking about the president's trip to Asia. As you know, the State Department came forward, warning about a possible terror threat in China, as the president gets ready to go there.

He's talking about that. We will check in with him, also, on what he has to say -- more LIVE FROM after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: We are back here live (ph).

Police say an Islamic terrorist known as the "Demolition Man" for his expertise with explosives has been killed in a raid in Indonesia. They say dozens of bombs were discovered in his hideout, suggesting that more terror attack were in the works.

CNN senior Asia Correspondent Mike Chinoy reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SENIOR ASIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Malaysian Azahari bin Husin was believed to have been chief explosives expert for Jemaah Islamiyah, al Qaeda's Southeast Asian offshoot.

Rohan Gunaratna has studied Jemaah Islamiyah for years.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": Dr. Azahari was the principal bomb-maker for Jemaah Islamiyah. He trained in Afghanistan under the famous Abul Kebab al-Masri (ph), the main al Qaeda bomb- maker.

CHINOY: Indonesian police had been searching for Azahari for a long time. Acting on a tipoff, the country's U.S.-trained counterterrorist forces finally traced him to a small town 430 miles, nearly 700 kilometers, east of Jakarta.

Azahari was believed to have designed bombs used in Jemaah Islamiyah's most spectacular attacks, the 2002 bombings in the resort of Bali, which killed over 200 people, nearly half Australians, the 2003 bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, last year's attack on the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, and last month's second round of bombings in Bali, which left 20 dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was the critical bomb-maker in the earlier bombings. And he certainly trained a lot of other people. This will be a -- a major coup for the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Relief and elation that -- that, finally, someone has paid a -- a price, maybe a fair price, for what happened in -- in October 2002.

CHINOY: In the murky world of Islamic extremism Azahari was an unusual figure, Western educated, with a Ph.D. from a British university. He applied his expertise in technology to promote jihad, becoming a mentor to a new generation of terrorists.

GUNARATNA: Jemaah Islamiyah certainly has lost a -- a very important warriors of theirs. But, at same time, Dr. Azahari has trained a number of young bomb-makers. He wrote the famous manual, the famous J.I. bomb-making manual, that he has left behind.

CHINOY: Indonesian officials say they will keep up the pressure on the terror group.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We will take appropriate action to prevent more terrorist attacks and hunt down those who still want to commit terrorist attacks.

GUNARATNA: Jemaah Islamiyah has been degraded, but the new Jemaah Islamiyah we are seeing is highly decentralized. There's no one single point of convergence. There's no center of gravity, no central leadership.

CHINOY (on camera): Which means, experts say, that, even with Azahari out of the picture, Jemaah Islamiyah remains a dangerous threat.

Mike Chinoy, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi is supposed to sit down with the vice president today. The controversial Chalabi will also meet with several Bush Cabinet members.

Chalabi was a favorite of the administration before the Iraq war. He provided information on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, information that was later discredited. Chalabi has regained some of his cachet with the White House, but is also being investigated by the FBI for possibly giving U.S. secrets to Iran.

Syria's president has some strong words for those who link his country to an assassination. President Bashar al-Assad addressed his nation last night, calling the probe into the car bomb death of Rafiq Hariri a game, and part of an international agenda. Al-Assad promised to cooperate, but only to a point with United Nations investigators in a probe that has implicated Syrian agents in the killing of the former Lebanese prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BASHAR AL-ASSAD (through translator): We do want to cooperate to uncover the details of that crime. But, we will not allow, certainly will not allow, that any procedure would touch on the security and stability of Syria. We will not go to what's killing ourselves in the logic, they say. We've always supported international legitimacy and we do, and we are committed. But not at an expense of our national commitments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, as political foes are crowning and London pundits wonder if it's the beginning of the end for Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Blair suffers his first major defeat since 1997 over an anti- terror law that was voted down in parliament. The sticking point was a provision that would have allowed police to hold terror suspects for up to 90 days without charges. Dozens of Blair's own labor party voted against that measure. The political knives are out. Conservative party leader Michael Howard has called for Blair's resignation. Others are voicing concern that Blair is now a lame duck.

A sigh of relief spreads across France, though. The nightly riots in Paris 'burbs were less severe overnight. Far fewer cars were set on fire than in previous nights. And there were no reported street clashes.

Officials credit several things. A tougher mandate given the police that residents were patrolling on their own and one policeman notes there was a big soccer match on TV last night.

French President Jacques Chirac says today that his government learned a stark message from the rioting and that he intends to address the special needs in what he calls, deprived neighborhoods surrounding Paris.

An update now from the Pentagon on the man believed to be the mastermind behind the Jordan hotel bombings. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, we're on it.

Our Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins us live, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley talking about bad intel in Iraq.

STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: All believed, based on the same intelligence, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and imposed an enormous threat to his neighbors and to the world at large.

The president created the bipartisan Silverman-Robb commission to examine our intelligence system. Their report in March of last year states, and I quote, the commission found no evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community's pre-war assessments of Iraq's weapons programs, unquote.

To ensure our policymakers receive the best intelligence, the president worked with the Congress to implement broad recommendations for intelligence reform. I point out that some of the critics today believed themselves in 2002, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

They stated that belief. And they voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq because they believed Saddam Hussein posed a dangerous threat to the American people. For those critics to ignore their own past statements, exposes the hollowness of their current attacks. I'd be glad to take some questions.

QUESTION: When you say that the president will urge them to take further steps towards the market-based currency, what further steps are you talking about here? Will the president seek a specific commitment from the Chinese while he's there or just talk about this issue?

HADLEY: He'll talk about it. As you know, what they announced in July is a framework by which adjustments could be made over time to allow the two currencies to reflect market factors. There was some initial adjustment and initial evaluation. Very little since. I think what the president will urge is that the Chinese begin to take steps towards their own stated objective, that market factors be taken into account in the valuation of their currency.

QUESTION: Are there going to be -- is there going be, first of all a bilat with President Putin of Russia. Maybe I missed it. Secondly, could you outline some of the specific take-aways that you expect from this trip?

HADLEY: Sure. We have offered a time when the president could meet with President Putin. We have not yet closed with them. We don't know whether it works in terms of President Putin's schedule. So that's still an item that's being worked.

PHILLIPS: We've been listening to national security adviser Stephen Hadley there. He was talking about intelligence, bad intel on WMD in Iraq. Then the questions got shifted to other topics of information or other topics, rather. We're going follow that. See if he comes back to that initial of bad intel and see if he talks more about the president's trip to China and of course the terror threats that have come forward in the past couple of days.

We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Back here live in B control. We're talking now about the Tennessee prosecutors planning to charge a 14-year-old with first- degree murder.

That teen, whose name hasn't been officially released, is accused of killing an assistant principal at a high school in Jacksboro. The school was locked down after the shooting Tuesday afternoon. That suspect could be arraigned Monday. Prosecutors want to try him as an adult. The school's principal and another assistant principal are recovering from their gunshot wounds.

Many school officials fed up with violence are arming themselves with their own high-tech weapons. They're tasers and they're sparking a lot of debate. CNN's Drew Griffin shows us how tasers work and why they're drawing so much heat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is surveillance video inside Pinellas Park High School near Tampa, Florida last February. An ordinary day that's about to get ugly for one student. DOUG WALKER: One was here. One was here. And he said, you know, put your hands behind your back.

GRIFFIN: You can see two school police officers approaching 18- year-old Doug Walker. Police say he started swearing at them.

WALKER: Then all of a sudden they both grabbed me by the arm and slammed me to the ground.

GRIFFIN: He's then hand-cuffed.

WALKER: They grab the chain in my cuff. Yanked me up to my feet.

GRIFFIN: He's then taken to the principal's office where the videotape ends, but Walker says his nightmare doesn't.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Walker decided that he was going to flee.

WALKER: I didn't even get two steps when they ran up behind me and slammed me to my face again.

GRIFFIN: According to the police report, he used excessive profanities and continued to thrash and kick while being held down by three officers. He was still in handcuffs.

CAPT. SANDFIELD FORSETH, PINELLAS PARK POLICE: He was kicking, flailing around, being told to quit. He wouldn't quit. So the officers used the weapon like this.

GRIFFIN: The weapon was a taser, a stun gun that temporarily numbs your body with 50,000 volts of energy. Police used it on Doug Walker's back.

WALKER: My whole body just flexed. Like my neck flexed back.

GRIFFIN: Police say he continued kicking. And for that reason was tasered for a total of three times. The first time for five seconds, then two more, one-second blasts.

WALKER: It's probably the worst pain you could probably ever feel.

GRIFFIN: Walker was charged with resisting arrest. School officials won't talk with CNN saying it's a police matter.

FORSETH: He was a threat to the officer's safety and possibly the safety of other people nearby.

GRIFFIN: So why did police confront Walker in the first place? The police report says he threw a book and swore at a teacher saying "get the F away from me. And don't F'ing touch me."

John Trevena defended Walker against the charges.

JOHN TREVENA, LAWYER: Here he have police officers who are zapping a guy with 50,000 volts repeatedly because he's mouthing off to them?

STEVEN WALKER, DOUG WALKER'S DAD: It's hard to understand. Is it justified to use that much force on a kid?

GRIFFIN: A number of similar incidents have raised concerns about the use of tasers on teens and kids. Police used a taser on a 6-year-old boy in Miami. In Central Florida, a mentally challenged girl was tasered five times. And in Chicago, the tasering of a 14- year-old sparked debate about the safety of tasers on minors.

According to the makers of the device, Taser International, 1700 school police officers were carrying tasers as of last year. The company refused to be interviewed by CNN for this report, but did tell us in an e-mail their product is safe. They also say police in 49 states have used the device effectively for years. Only New Jersey has banned them.

So how does it work? The shock of the taser causes loss of muscle control for up to five seconds. It can either be used from a distance of up to 21 feet or at close range, pressed against the body in what's called a stun or touch mode.

SHERIFF DEAN KELLY, PUTNAM COUNTY, FLORIDA: You'd simply pull the trigger. And it cycles for five seconds. Now, if you were using the air cartridge, it would be plugged in in this fashion.

GRIFFIN: When the trigger is pulled, two probes connected to the gun by wires fire out. The sharp probes can penetrate through two inches of clothes and into skin. This Taser International training video shows how those probes pierce the skin. When removed, there's a chance of bleeding and scarring.

Police departments across the country have told CNN many lives have been saved because officers used a taser instead of a real gun. Still, some parents fear school police might use the taser just to keep students in line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The potential is there to have situations where it's misused, misapplied, and someone ends up getting tasered that should never have been tasered.

GRIFFIN: CNN examined a dozen police reports from cities across the country where students were tasered by police. These were the reasons listed for officers using a taser: students ran away from police, mouthed off, argued with a teacher or got into a fight. King Downing is with the ACLU.

KING DOWNING, ACLU: Most of these cases, these are behavioral issues and not really crimes.

GRIFFIN (on camera): But police on campus say they are not replacing a deadly weapon. The taser for them replaces literally the strong arm of the law.

SGT. STEVE BAUM, NEWARK, OHIO POLICE: This is an option for officers to use instead of either macing them, hitting them or hitting them with a nightstick.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): That's what happened in this case at Newark High School in Ohio. A police officer used the taser to break up a student fight. It's the only time a taser has been used on a student there and school officials supported the decision.

SUPT. KEITH RICHARDS, NEWARK CITY SCHOOLS: I'm not going to put my judgment in place of our police officers. They've made the decision that a taser is an appropriate law enforcement tool.

GRIFFIN: Keith Richards is the city school superintendent.

RICHARDS: The most important salient point here is if you don't do something you shouldn't, you don't have to worry about any of them.

GRIFFIN: But some parents say it may not be that simple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Teenagers do not react like adults. They aren't as mature. They don't know how to handle things sometimes.

GRIFFIN: In an e-mail to CNN Taser International told us that the taser device has been shown to be medically safe when used on children based on independent medical tests.

We asked to see those medical tests, and the company e-mailed us this study. In it, there is no mention of use on children or teens, but Taser International says pigs between 66 pounds and 257 pounds were tasered for the study without problems meaning it's safe to tase humans in that same weight range.

The company also says there is no harm in tasing someone more than once because you can reduce the length of a shock from five seconds down to one or two seconds, which is what the officers, who tasered Doug Walker said they did.

Here's what the company CEO Rick Smith told CNN about his product last year.

RICK SMITH, CEO TASER INTERNATIONAL: There's no cumulative effect of electricity. It doesn't stay in the body. Each pulse transverses through the body. It's out and it's gone.

GRIFFIN: Dr. David Nykanen is pediatric cardiologist at Arnold Palmer Hospital in Orlando, Florida. He says nobody truly knows the danger.

DR. DAVID NYKANEN, ARNOLD PALMER HOSPITAL: I'm not aware of any studies that have been done in children.

GRIFFIN: And he says there's one more thing to consider.

NYKANEN: Emotionally, there's an effect that can't be underestimated.

GRIFFIN: Doug Walker knows that firsthand. He was suspended from school the day he was tasered, and never went back or finished high school.

If they would have came to me and said, hey, son, why don't we come into my office and talk? I would have walked with them and everything would have been fine. I doubt anything would have happened.

GRIFFIN: And who knows what would have happened had he behaved differently. Even so, the question remains, are tasers in schools right or even necessary?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, tasers have been linked to 130 deaths, the youngest victim 17 years old.

We're told that there's word from the Pentagon regarding al Qaeda's top man in Iraq. Straight to CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre. Jamie we're listening to the briefing with Stephen Hadley talking a little bit about Iraq and then it kind of moved off into China. Were you able to monitor what else took place?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, here at the Pentagon, they're saying that they're taking it face value, the claim of al Qaeda in Iraq that it was responsible for the attacks in Jordan yesterday against the three American-owned hotels there. They say they have no information to verify it, but they have no reason to dispute it.

It's completely consistent with the actions and intentions of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. They also -- a source close to the investigation in Jordan, tells CNN that it's believed that two of the bombers were in fact Iraqis and used a suicide bomb belt that was similar to those use for attacks in Iraq.

So again, consistency there pointing to the idea that these attacks in Jordan were in fact a part of Zarqawi's plan to extend his reach beyond Iraq. At the Pentagon today, a lot of questions about why it's been so difficult to track down Zarqawi, despite the fact the U.S. has had repeated military operations in the western part of Iraq where it's believed that he is operating. And Pentagon spokesman Larry DeRita insisted that eventually Zarqawi will be captured.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE DERITA, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: Getting close isn't good enough and we know that. We'll -- eventually Zarqawi will be captured or killed, that's my belief. I think that's the confidence that the coalition has. But at the moment, that hasn't happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says it continues -- the U.S. military continues to roll up al Qaeda leaders in Iraq, capturing more in this latest operation called Steel Curtain in western Iraq and along the Syrian border. But you're not hearing some of the statements that you were hearing just a few months ago when U.S. commanders were saying that Zarqawi's influence was diminishing because his top lieutenants had been captured.

Today the Pentagon says they can't say whether Zarqawi's network is stronger or weaker. They do say it remains capable of inflicting deadly casualties against innocent civilians, as was the case in Jordan yesterday and Iraq today -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Jamie, I don't know if it came up in the briefing or not. And I don't even know if you'll have the answer to this but, of course we've been doing live shots in New York, Chris Huntington telling us about beefed up security at the hotels there. Did it come up in the briefing, this concern about suicide bombers in the United States?

MCINTYRE: There was no discussion in the Pentagon briefing about the threat from suicide bombers in the U.S. Of course, suicide bombs are the hardest kind of attack to defend against. So one of the things that they keep stressing in trying to defeat the insurgency in Iraq, is that there is no way to have a perfect defense against a suicide bomber who's willing to take his own life in order to inflict a casualty.

So they believe that the best defense is a good offense, continuing to take the fight to the terrorist to try to hunt them down. They continue to think that that's the way to go. And they also admit that inevitably there will always be terrorism. There will always be terrorist attacks. The attempt is to get it down to a manageable level, certainly something much less than what we're seeing today in Iraq.

PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre, thank you so much.

Well, after the bombings in Jordan the question cries out again, why is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi still on the loose?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): A year ago today, United States forces were fighting to capture Fallujah, Zarqawi's reputed home base in Iraq. U.S. troops killed hundreds of insurgents. They overran a building, described as Zarqawi's Fallujah headquarters, but they didn't get Zarqawi.

Less than three months later, in February, the Americans laid a trap and may have thought that they had him dead to rights. But the truck that the military thought Zarqawi was riding managed to evade a roadblock. When U.S. forces finally pulled it over, no Zarqawi.

How close was it? Taken from the truck, Zarqawi's personal computer, which had photographs of the terrorists stored on its hard drive. That raid netted two of Zarqawi's top lieutenants. As for Zarqawi, he's still on the loose.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: And we're watching the situation in Amman, Jordan. Protesters gathering in the aftermath of yesterday's bombings. The news keeps coming, and we'll keep bringing it to you. All the live pictures straight ahead, right here on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: We're going take you back to the Pentagon. Stephen Hadley, national security adviser, now talking -- or back to the White House, forgive me -- now talking about Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

QUESTION: I'm sorry -- I didn't -- that was just a...

STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Third follow-up. Can this be the last follow-up?

QUESTION: This will be last follow-up.

If that's the case and you're talking about lessons learned, then why is it that Ahmed Chalabi, who was thought by this government to be one of the main peddlers of intelligence that turned out to be flat wrong, why is he now welcomed at the highest levels of this administration?

HADLEY: He, as you know, saw many senior officials. He did not meet the president. He was received here because of what he is. He is one of the deputy prime ministers of Iraq. He came here representing the Iraqi government. And we are receiving a number of officials from the Iraqi government.

I'll give you an example. In terms of the recent months, we have see Iyad Allawi, Massoud Barzani, Hajim Hassani, Prime Minister Jaafari, Mouwaffak al-Rubaie, Barham Salih, Jalal Talabani, the president.

We're seeing a lot of Iraqi government officials. He is one. And we're seeing a lot of them, because this is a critical time in Iraq, going into the elections, and it is very important that these elections produce an outcome that it reflects the will of the Iraqi people, that results in a government standing that is broadly based, drawing from all elements of the Iraqi society, that gets...

PHILLIPS: We'll continue to follow Stephen Hadley there, national security adviser briefing reporters at the White House.

That does it for us here in the LIVE FROM team. We'll see you back here tomorrow. It's been a long day, hasn't it? We'll have more tomorrow. The team's already working toward the rest of the week.

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