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Wild Weather Across the Country; New Orleans Heartbreak; Big Oil Meeting; Serial Killer Art Raises Free Speech Debate

Aired November 16, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Wild weather. People in many parts of the Midwest and Southeast are digging out from a severe weather hit. In all, the National Weather Service says 35 tornadoes were reported in Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Illinois and Indiana yesterday. Two deaths are being blamed on those storms. One in Kentucky, one in Indiana. Property damage is widespread, and in some places heavy.
CNN's Rick Sanchez reports from Clarksville, Tennessee, where dozens of homes were either damaged or destroyed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You can hear them in the background. This is what's left for so many people here in Tennessee who have lost their homes, like the family who was living in this home.

This is a mobile home, if you can believe it, or what's left of it. It's just a pile of debris at this point, but they're going through it, trying to see if they can recover what's left of their belongings at this point.

What's interesting about this story is that this mobile home was actually at one point all the way up here on this foundation. I'll show you exactly where it is.

There's the foundation for the home. That's where it ended up. And the reason for that is that there are so many hills in this part of Tennessee that many of the cars, many of the trucks, and even in one case a school bus that was hit by the tornado, started rolling down the hill.

In this particular case, though, it's an even more amazing story, because as this trailer home started rolling down the hill, there was somebody inside of it, a 15-year-old girl who was all alone at the time. Her parents were trying to get home from work.

It was about 5:30. She found herself at the bottom of the hill inside that debris. And somehow, miraculously, she was able to get herself out, went to a neighbor's house and then called her parents.

It's an amazing story. There are many like hers out here in this area around Tennessee and Kentucky. And officials are now getting into the area, and they're going to spend most of the day trying to assist these people to get their lives back together again. The other thing that they're doing is, they're trying to make sure nobody else gets hurt. Oftentimes in emergencies like this, most of the injuries and some of the fatalities take place after the storm goes by when people come out and try and fix things.

For example, what you see here are power lines. What you see here is a device that's used to mark it so that people know it's there, especially if they are live wires.

From what we understand, these aren't live anymore. But this is the kind of situation that officials are concerned about. They say there's a lot of this here, a lot of power lines down, a lot of trees down, and it could cause problems throughout the day in parts of Kentucky and Tennessee.

Rick Sanchez. Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Weather experts say that tornadoes in November are not all that rare. What they do say is unusual about this year's storms is their intensity.

On November 6, a powerful tornado touched down in Evansville, Indiana, killing 22 people and injuring 230. The storm tore a 41-mile path of destruction. Its winds were clocked at over 200 miles per hour.

Related storms caused extensive damage and killed horses at a racetrack in Kentucky. And on Sunday, a woman was killed when at least nine tornadoes raced through central Iowa.

One man caught the intensity of this storm on amateur video. Hardest hit were the small towns of Stratford and Woodward, Iowa, where at least 70 homes were destroyed.

Such ferocious tornadoes are not all that common in November. Let's check in with CNN meteorologist Dave Hennen to see what's in store today in those affected states and the rest of the country.

(WEATHER REPORT)

PHILLIPS: Well, thousands of hurricane evacuees will have some added stress this holiday season. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas, people staying in motels and hotels on FEMA's tab will have to find a new place to live.

FEMA says it will stop paying for rooms December 1 for a majority of Hurricane Katrina and Rita evacuees. And right now 53,000 families are still in hotels. FEMA says that evacuees in Louisiana and Mississippi, where there is a shortage of housing, will get until January 7 to find living arrangements.

Hard to imagine anything more heartbreaking than going home and finding it destroyed. Well, for dozens of New Orleans families, though, it's getting even worse. Amid the rubble are bodies forgotten and abandoned, still, after all this time. A missing mother, grandmother, sometimes even a child.

CNN's Rusty Dornin investigates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susie Eaton worried her mother, Viola, might have been stuck inside her house in the Ninth Ward when Hurricane Katrina hit. Eaton, who lives in Florida, received a death certificate for the wrong person. Upset, she tried, but couldn't get answers from officials in New Orleans.

She ended up calling CNN and told us about her worst fears.

SUSIE EATON, MOTHER MISSING: My feelings are that my mother may be still in the house and she was not able to get out in time before the -- before the levee broke.

DORNIN: We volunteered to go to her mother's house to see what we could find.

(on camera): This is what's left of the block where Susie Eaton's mother lived. We have no idea exactly where the house was. But we did have the address. And we found her mailbox. When we called Eaton, she said she was thankful to know that much, but still wonders what happened to her mother.

(voice-over): Two blocks from where Viola Eaton's house once stood, cadaver dogs continue to search underneath the piles of rubble.

The official search-and-rescue effort was called off October 3, but there was such a backlash, crews resumed searching demolished neighborhoods. They have cleared areas zip code by zip code.

There was no joy for Paul Murphy in this homecoming. When he walked into his house in New Orleans' Ninth Ward last month for the first time since Katrina, it was shock and anger.

PAUL MURPHY, FOUND GRANDMOTHER'S BODY: So, I'm thinking that, OK, I was going to come and salvage a few pictures or something. And I walk in here. I found my grandma on the floor dead.

DORNIN: Since November 1, 10 bodies have been found in the ruins of the Ninth Ward. The last area, known as the Lower Ninth, will open to residents December 1. Coroner Frank Minyard worries about what people will find.

(on camera): You're fully expecting that more bodies will come in once they open the Ninth Ward?

FRANK MINYARD, ORLEANS PARISH CORONER: Yes. And I think it's -- it's going to come in for a good while. There's so much rubbish around that they might find people in the rubbish.

DORNIN (voice-over): They already have. And there are still many bodies left unidentified and unclaimed. MINYARD: We have 150 autopsies left to do, all on unidentified people. Hopefully, that -- that will help us identify that person, if we can find a pacemaker or an artificial hip or something. Then we're into DNA.

DORNIN: Susan Eaton asked if she could send a DNA sample and was told DNA samples were not being accepted. Nearly 80 days after Katrina, not one DNA test has been done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Once again, that was our Rusty Dornin.

Well, the reason DNA tests are on hold, the federal government and the state are arguing over which agency will pay for the lab contract.

Now to federal bankruptcy court, where Delta Airlines is asking for more concessions from its pilots, $325 million worth. A lawyer for the Pilots Union has just asked the judge to remove herself from the case, saying that some of her comments show she is "biased." Delta's attorney calls that motion showmanship.

The nation's third largest airline wants to avoid its pilots' contract so it can cut wages and benefits to keep Delta flying. The union, which has nearly offered $91 million in concessions, has threatened to strike if Delta gets its way.

Well, Delta isn't the only major airline trying to cut labor costs. Another bankrupt carrier, Northwest, received court permission today to cut the pay of pilots and flight attendants. The pay cut is just under 24 percent for pilots and almost 21 percent for flight attendants.

Both moves reflect agreements negotiation with union officials. Northwest says it needs to reduce losses, currently $4 million a day.

Well, new details come to light. Exactly who was in a high-level meeting at the White House, and did they have any impact on what you pay for gas? LIVE FROM has got that story straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Rosa Parks' legacy will certainly live on after her death, but who controls her legacy is now the subject of a bitter lawsuit. The civil rights icon died last month at age 92. Parks will and trust her name -- her will and her trust, rather, name her long- time assistant and a retired judge as administrators of her estate. But last week Parks' nephew filed papers seeking to be put in charge of her estate. At stake is not only Parks' estate, but big bucks that could be made by selling the rights to her name and her image.

A report in "The Washington Post" appears to connect big oil to Vice President Cheney's energy task force. "The Post" reports that a White House document shows that oil company executives met with the task force in 2001. But just last week, several big oil CEOs told a joint Senate panel their companies did not participate in that task force. Critics have blasted the task force, saying it came up with policies in secret that favor the oil industry.

Joining me to discuss the new information, Bob Barr, former congressman and CNN contributor.

Bob, good to see you.

BOB BARR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So, basically, I think what a lot of people are wanting to know, were these companies' CEOs meeting with Dick Cheney's aides and basically working on ways that certain individuals could profit? Others are saying, no, this was about the energy policy.

What do you think?

BARR: Well, they're probably both right. As a matter of fact, there is an awful lot of profit to be made in the energy business. And what the government does to develop and implement an energy policy, which is very important for our country, means not just hundreds of millions, but billions of dollars to these oil companies.

So, it would surprise probably very few people in this town, including myself, if they didn't discuss, you know, how the energy industry, how these petroleum companies were going to be involved in a new, or development of, a new energy policy.

PHILLIPS: Well, and the talk a couple of weeks ago on the front page of all the papers talking about the profits that these companies make. Some companies saying, look, we take those profits and put it into research for alternate uses for fuel. Others are saying, no, we don't do that.

So, a lot of people questioning, while we're paying higher gas prices, why are these companies making big profits? That was the first issue.

Now it's sort of unraveling, and we're hearing about this document and possibly these companies meeting with Cheney aides. And cover-up, possibly?

BARR: I think that the real problem here -- I mean, there are certainly some -- some folks that don't like companies to make profits. But they're in a very small minority here. And there are a very small number of folks also that believe that the solution to the energy crisis in this country is to regulate profits or the price of oil, having the federal government do that.

But what's really troubling here to a lot of folks is the secrecy and the dissembling that seems to be going on very clearly, or at least it seems clearly at this point. Some of these oil executives have been caught in a lie.

Now, whether or not the government by virtue of maybe another Peter Fitzgerald (sic), a special prosecutor being appointed, or a congressional referral to the Department of Justice, whether or not this results in an effort to hold them accountable for missed statements or obstruction remains to be seen. And I think a lot of that depends on the price of oil.

PHILLIPS: Well, let me -- let me ask you about an investigation. Senator Frank Lautenberg saying, "The White House went to great lengths to keep these meetings secret, and now oil senators may be lying to Congress about their role in the Cheney task force."

But these executives were not under oath when they testified, right, Bob? So they're not vulnerable of charges of perjury. So what could happen?

BARR: Well, it's very interesting. One might want to ask why they were not put under oath as witnesses in that situation normally are.

The word on the streets up here in Washington is that some law firms with Republican connections went to the senators, those running the committee, at least, and asked that they not be put under oath. That would be very interesting to look into that.

But even though they cannot be prosecuted for perjury since they were not under oath, it still is a violation of federal law to lie in an official proceeding in an effort to mislead Congress or to obstruct an investigation.

PHILLIPS: So gas prices are coming down a little bit. Do you think that this could just go away? Or do you think it should be pursued? And will it be pursued?

BARR: Three questions there. The answer to number two is, yes, it certainly ought to be pursued, because the integrity of the government process is at stake here.

Whether it will or not, I think, Kyra, depends in large measure on the price of oil. If, in fact, the price of oil stays at its current level or continues dropping as it has been doing recently, then I doubt that there will be many on the Hill who want to take on this issue, or in the administration.

But I think if the price of oil starts going back up, where we have another crisis that results in a jump in oil prices this winter, then I think the pressure on the Congress and perhaps even the administration to appoint some sort of body to look into this will increase dramatically.

PHILLIPS: Bob Barr, thanks for your time.

BARR: Sure.

PHILLIPS: Another story that we're talking about today, that teenager charged with killing his 14-year-old girlfriend's parents is arraigned and back in jail in Pennsylvania. Eighteen-year-old David Ludwig went before a judge today after returning from Indiana. Ludwig is accused of killing Kara Borden's parents at their home Sunday and fleeing with the girl. The two were found Monday in Indiana, and it's still unclear whether Borden was abducted or went with Ludwig willingly.

Prayer services planned tonight for Borden's parents.

Authorities in Atlanta are looking into an apparent plot by a courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols to break out of jail again. You remember Nichols. He was charged in that shooting spree in March that left four people dead after he overpowered a courthouse guard and took her weapon while he was on trial for rape.

Now deputies say he and another inmate facing murder charges exchanged notes about another escape plan. The notes discussed overpowering deputies and even freeing other inmates.

Well, it's not just fair. Anaheim, California, already has Disneyland, right? And the Mighty Ducks. Now it also has the single ticket winner of last night's Mega Millions drawing. We're going to run the numbers for you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, a thrill ride gets a little too thrilling on the Las Vegas Strip. Check this out.

The power went out in an amusement area on top of the Stratosphere tower, the tallest structure, as you know, in the western United States. And six Japanese tourists were riding the X Scream ride when that power went out.

They spent 90 minutes suspended over the edge of an 866-foot tower last night before that power finally got back on. The tourists were taken to the hospital for observation. Luckily, no injuries are reported.

Well, one lucky Lotto winner is sitting on millions of dollars, 315 of them. Last night's $315 million Mega Million jackpot went to a single winner. The winning ticket was bought in Anaheim, California. In addition, 19 tickets matched five numbers, but not the Mega Ball winner. They're worth $250,000 each.

And in case you haven't checked your tickets, here's the winning numbers: 2, 4, 5, 40 and 48. The Mega Ball number, 7.

Well, if you're sick of running into ads every time you go out online, well, you're out of luck, because online advertising is only getting hotter. Kathleen Hays with more on that from the New York Stock Exchange.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: A new twist and a well-known name in the CIA leak investigation. "The Washington Post's" Bob Woodward, who made his name exposing Watergate, gave sworn testimony in the leak investigation on Monday. And according to "The Post," Woodward testified that he learned the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame from a top administration official about a month before her name was made public.

But Woodward also revealed that the special counsel questioned him about the context in which he learned Valerie Plame's identity. Woodward writes, "I testified that the reference seemed to me to be casual and offhand, and that it did not appear to me to be either classified or sensitive."

Woodward would not identify the official who told him about Valerie Plame, and he did note that it was not Lewis Libby, the former aide to Dick Cheney who has been indicted in the case.

Now, that's not the end of the story. In just the last hour or so, the "Post" Web site reported that Bob Woodward has apologized to the paper's executive editor, Leonard Downey, Jr. The reason? Woodward waited more than two years before telling Downey that the Bush administration official he met with in 2003 had revealed Valerie Plame's identity to him.

Now, in an interview with "The Post's" Howard Kurtz, Woodward said, "I apologized because I should have told him about this much sooner. I explained in detail that I was trying to protect my sources. That's job number one in a case like this."

"I hunkered down. I'm in the habit of keeping secrets." He goes on to say, "I didn't want anything out there that was gong to get me subpoenaed."

Well, Downey told Kurtz that Woodward had "made a mistake." He said Woodward still should have come forward, which he now admits. "We should have had that conversation."

With me now, the man who wrote the article for "The Post," Howard Kurtz. He is also the host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."

So Howie boy, it gets a little confusing. I hope everyone is following us here. But when it comes down to it, Woodward and "The Post" editor said that Woodward had made a mistake. The apologies are now coming forward.

What should happen next?

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Well, we'd all like to know a lot more about who this still secret source was, Kyra. But an unusual situation. Bob Woodward told me in that interview you referred to that while the source gave him permission to testify, which he did on Monday before Patrick Fitzgerald in the continuing CIA leak investigation, the source did not give him permission to tell the rest of us who that person is.

And that, I think, is a little bit frustrating both for Woodward on the paper, because he feels like he is bound by that original promise of confidentiality. This is the same issue, as you know, that prompted Judith Miller of "The New York Times" to spend 85 days in jail.

PHILLIPS: Do you think he might be -- the pressure might be put on him to give up his source?

KURTZ: Well, Woodward is a guy who, as I recall, kept the secret of who Deep Throat was for 33 years until that was revealed by "Vanity Fair." So I'm sure he'll be under a lot of pressure. I do not expect him to reveal the source, unless he can persuade this administration official -- and he told me that he has been trying, in recent weeks, to get a release from the that pledge -- to allow him to go public with the name.

It's a very unusual situation. Usually either you can't say anything about a source or you can go public. This kind of partial permission to testify an ongoing criminal investigation, but not to tell the rest of the world, is a fairly unusual circumstance.

PHILLIPS: Do you think Woodward's too close to his sources, Howie?

KURTZ: Certainly, his critics have said that over the years. I don't know that this is an example of it. He was given this information, he says, rather casually while he was working on one of his books about the Bush White House and how they took the country to war. He didn't think at the time that it was all that important. In other words, it didn't seem to him to be part of a concerted effort to get even with Joe Wilson by disclosing the CIA role of his wife, Valerie Plame.

On the other hand, to a lot of people out there -- and the same criticism was made of Matt Cooper and Judy Miller -- it looks like journalists, Woodward included, are helping the Bush administration keep an embarrassing secret by not sharing it with the rest of us.

But this is the nature of dealing with anonymous sources. When you make that promise, whether its on a routine story or a sensitive matter like this, you are binding yourself, even when it becomes awkward or uncomfortable, as it clearly is in this case -- you are binding yourself not to reveal where you got that information.

PHILLIPS: And, of course, comes a discussion about a breakdown in trust.

KURTZ: The breakdown in trust would be two-fold. On the one hand, if Woodward were to suddenly decide he's going to tell the rest of the world, well, then, I think future sources, whether it's in the administration or elsewhere, might think twice or three times about confiding in him. But at the same time, Woodward is in an unusual situation here. He writes these best-selling books, but he doesn't spend most of his time with the newspaper.

He's still an employee of "The Washington Post." That's why he's concluded belatedly that he owed Len Downey at least the courtesy of telling him, hey, I'm involved in this thing, too. I mean, we have written 150 stories on this investigation and Downey didn't know until last month and I personally didn't know until this morning that Woodward was one of those who received that information about Valerie Plame from a senior administration official.

PHILLIPS: Interesting stuff. Any other thoughts, Howie?

KURTZ: I do think that is -- there's a larger issue here. And I talked about this in connection with Cooper and Miller and the other reporters, which is we are all too quickly among Washington journalists, too quick to make that promise where we get ourselves in this box. We get the information, we feel like we have access to the inside skinny.

But at the same time, we are then protecting the people who are giving us the information. And I think that this has hurt the reputation of journalism overall, because rather than blowing the whistle on some kind of scandal that's happened in Watergate, Woodward's most famous story. Here, it was a rather unsavory use of the press by the Bush administration to put out this information about the wife of one of its critics.

And so I think it's unfortunate and I'm not surprised that the public opinion of journalism has sunk even lower, if that were possible, because of this Valerie Plame controversy.

PHILLIPS: Howie, you make an interesting point. Because we do say that a lot, even in copy, in our ad lib, in our conversation. Sources tell me, sources tell us, CNN sources. We do use that -- it's a regular -- it's a part of our regular conversation, many a times. Do we need to maybe value that word or value that expression, respect it in a different way?

KURTZ: We need to think more carefully about how often we're making these promises. Now, and there some cases with really important stories -- for example, the "Post" revealing just the other week that the CIA was maintaining secret prisons in Eastern Europe to interrogate al Qaeda suspects. You're not going to get that story by assisting the people who go on the record.

But because this is so routinely overused and abused by reporters every day, in granting anonymity often to administration officials or others, I think that we have compromised ourselves on far too many stories.

And we have created a trust issue with a lot of readers and viewers who wonder why it is that we can get all this information and not tell them, not share with them, not be candid with them, where it's coming from. That's a problem I think that we need to be a lot more careful about promising this kind of anonymity.

PHILLIPS: Well, so many journalists want to get the story first, Howie. They want to have the exclusive. They want to have it either in print or on the air. And so it's sort of easy to say, OK, look, give us the information, we'll keep you as an inside source and we can go forward with the story.

KURTZ: The scoop mentality drives a lot of what we do in this business. But at the same time, it's kind of a devil's bargain that I think we entered into too often on too many different kinds of stories.

PHILLIPS: Interesting discussion. I know what you'll be talking about this weekend. Howie Kurtz, thank you so much.

KURTZ: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: "RELIABLE SOURCES," you don't want to miss it. Right here on CNN.

Well, it's legal, but is it right? A convicted murderer's art up for sale. We're going to debate the issue. LIVE FROM rolls on, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Bird flu officially hits the fan in China, as the World Health Organization confirms two human cases, including a female poultry worker who died of the disease. The group also lists a 9- year-old boy who recovered, but said it doesn't have enough samples to confirm if the boy's 12-year-old sister also had H5N1. She was cremated after she died last month.

China becomes the fifth Asian nation to confirm human cases of bird flu, joining Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam. And also which has reported the most cases, by the way, and the most fatalities. Forty-two of the 65 known deaths there in Vietnam.

Well, what would you do or what would you think if I told you that right now a convicted murder and rapist is selling his artwork online? It's happening in Massachusetts, and as CNN's Paula Zahn tells us, it's all perfectly legal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): This drawing of Jesus Christ has become a lightning rod, not because of its subject matter, but because of who the artist is and what he stands to gain from its sale. The artist is convicted serial murder Alfred Gaynor. He called his drawing "A Righteous Man's Reward."

Gaynor will spend the rest of his life behind bars in the maximum-security correctional center in Shirley, Massachusetts. Gaynor was convicted of raping and strangling four women in Massachusetts during the late '90s.

Gaynor's work, along with that of about 130 other convicts went on auction today on a website run by the Fortune Society, a New York City based prisoner's advocacy group. Here, collectors can place their bids on Gaynor's work. Some think there will be high interest in what has been blasted as "murder-a-bilia." Next month, the society will display all the pieces in a New York City gallery.

KRISTEN KIDDER, THE FORTUNE SOCIETY: The focus now is on the are and the creativity and the humanity of the person behind bars. It's not on what they did to get there. ZAHN: The Fortune Society has been auctioning off prisoner art for the past five years, but this is the first time there has been such a protest. Alfred Gainer could make as much as $250 from the sale of his drawing. Critics are offended, claiming Gaynor is benefiting from special treatment. The money isn't the issue, it's the recognition he would get for work done in prison.

WILLIAM BENNETT, PROSECUTOR: Serving life in prison and the idea that his punishment would somehow include participation in an art show really upsets you and makes you angry.

ZAHN: Relatives of the four women are outraged. One mother said it was like bringing up wounds on top of wounds, and that Gainer was being treated like a celebrity. Forty states have Son of Sam laws, named for 1970 serial killer, David Berkowitz, who tried to profit from his notoriety by writing a book. But the Massachusetts law was ruled a violation of the first amendment in 2002. So, unless a new law is passed, Alfred Gainer stands to cash in, despite his heinous crimes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: So, should this be legal? Paula spoke with Peter Koutoujian, a Massachusetts state representative who's trying to change his state's law so convicts can't profit behind bars.

JoAnn Paige, CEO of the Fortune Society which helps ex-cons start over, is sponsoring the auction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (on camera): We have heard from one of the mothers of the victims, one of the woman who was raped and murdered by this man, that she not only is offended that he's making money off this, but she is outraged that the reason why this art will sell in the first place because he's trading off his reputation as a serial killer. Isn't that sick? Do you understand why she's upset?

JOANN PAGE, FAVORS INMATE ART AUCTION: I think that it's interesting let me go back for a minute. I do understand why she's upset.

ZAHN: Do you understand why she feels like she's reliving the murder of her daughter twice. She's getting wounded over and over again.

PAGE: I think there's a dramatic difference between making money off a crime and being punished for a crime and being recognized for a piece of art. I think there's a tremendous difference. At the Fortune Society we work on rehabilitation and we believe that a person is more than the worst thing they ever did.

ZAHN: Representative Koutoujian, can you make that distinction between the man who committed the crime and a man who's paying for it in prison and is now making art that some people may want to buy? PETER KOUTOUJIAN, MASSACHUSETTS STATE REP.: I find, just as the mother of one of the victims, that these brutal rapes and murders really affected a family. They've been victimized once. They were revictimized through the trial and victimized now, once again, when they thought everything was over. He was serving four life sentences for the brutal rape and murder of four women, leaving a number of them without children, without a mother and it's tearing them up once again.

We're not suggesting, here in Massachusetts, that he should not be able to make art, simply that he should not be able to benefit and profit from making art, based upon his celebrity as a serial killer.

ZAHN: So, you would have no problem with his continuing to make this art, but giving it away and not selling it?

KOUTOUJIAN: Listen, everyone has the right to First Amendment. The First Amendment, free speech, but no one has the right to profit off of the tragedy of other people's lives. I think that's where we can draw the line.

ZAHN: Joann, why is it so important for you to give him the opportunity of profit. Why not allow his art to be enjoyed by people who want to enjoy it online and he can give it away if they want?

PAIGE: My heart goes out to the mother, and this is an individual who committed four terrible crimes and is serving the rest of his life behind bars. He's still a human being and rehabilitation still matters and art can be part of rehabilitation. As could college, as could drug treatment. What we're doing --

ZAHN: You're saying he has to be paid for it --

PAIGE: ... we're talking about something where the bid starts at $15, where we capped it at $250. If there hadn't been the media interest it probably would have sold for $30 or $40 . If he were working in the prison making license plates and earning money that way, it would have no more to do with the crime than selling a picture he did with crayon on paper. So, I don't think there's any connection whatsoever between the crime and the art. But I think that in the country where we're superb at punishment terrible at prevention and terrible at rehabilitation, it's important that we have rehabilitation in prison and that when people do something good, that they be recognized.

KOUTOUJIAN: Paula, if I can address some of that.

ZAHN: Mr. Koutoujian, you were saying you cannot separate the man from his crime and his art.

KOUTOUJIAN: The fact is that this is a simple crayon drawing, almost child-like of Christ. It's something that I could easily have done myself in crayon. The fact is no one would buy it if I were to put it online, but they will buy it if a serial killer was the artist. That's the difference.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: And you can catch Paula every week night, 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific, right here on CNN.

PHILLIPS: Wal-Mart's slogan is always low prices, but critics say America is paying a price for Wal-Mart that isn't reflected at the check-out counter. Two new documentaries take opposing sides. We're going to check them out right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Wal-Mart is an American success story and it has grown from a humble dime store into the world's biggest retail chain, leaving shopping icons like Sears, Macy's and K-mart far behind and that success has sparked controversy. Two new documentaries offer distinctly different takes. One concludes that Wal-Mart promotes the American dream and the other claims it's an American nightmare.

CNN's Rick Sanchez takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drive up from New York City on route 80 and you'll see a Wal-Mart up on the hill, and then you'll drive further into the town and you'll see an empty town that looks like a neutron bomb hit it.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): It's an explosive documentary that alleges that Wal-Mart has a take no prisoners business philosophy that is good for profits, but bad for America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't get it. We start talking about quality of life, they start talking about cheap underwear.

SANCHEZ: At this point, there is something I should tell you. When you do a story on a film that's as critical of a company as this one is about Wal-Mart, I want to talk to that company, Wal-Mart, to get their reaction.

(voice-over): Wal-Mart is not willing to go on camera, but it did provide us with a written statement saying, quote, "like any company, we want to make sure our associates, customers and local communities feel good about us. Wal-mart makes life better for an awful lot of people by providing low prices and good jobs to those who need them. However, we're the first to admit we're not perfect and have worked hard to make substantive business changes in areas where we fall short."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wal-Mart, I think, doesn't do a good enough job telling its story.

SANCHEZ: So, who is speaking up for Wal-Mart? This man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Wal-Mart has closed some businesses down, but it's created others. SANCHEZ: In fact, Ron Galloway (ph) is not only speaking up for the retail giant, he's also producing a documentary in their defense, one that depicts Wal-Mart as an ingenious business plan that is good for America.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many people have so many negative things to say about, but what about the positive things?

SANCHEZ: While Galloway's pro-Wal-Mart film introduces us to grateful employees.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody did it for me at a time in my life where I was totally hopeless.

SANCHEZ: The anti-Wal-Mart film points out that in 2001, according to court documents, workers made, on average, less than $14,000 a year, that Wal-Mart's CEO made $27 million a year. It also reveals that the owners of Wal-Mart, the Walton family, has a average net worth at or near $100 billion, give or take a billion here or there depending on the price of their stock at the time.

Now, as for the workers, or associates as they're called by Wal- Mart, their average salary is below what the government considers the federal poverty line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were people I'd see that didn't eat nothing. They'd take an hour lunch and just sit there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This young mother that I've talked to in L.A. was on Medi-Cal. She got on the Wal-Mart plan, she saw a doctor for the first time.

SANCHEZ: The anti-Wal-Mart film depicts Wal-Mart as consumed with keeping wages and benefits down and unions out by flying in executives and installing cameras to monitor employees as soon as there is a hint that workers may be organizing.

The retail giant gets most of its merchandise from outside the United States, from places like Honduras and Bangladesh where, according to the film, workers make as little as 15 cents an hour and work seven days a week.

But by far the largest provider of goods to Wal-Mart is China. How much does Wal-Mart depend on China? Company officials announced that in 2004, they imported more than $18 billion in goods from the People's Republic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Wal-Mart is a straw man for a set of issues that a certain group of people, special interest groups, have to deal with in American society.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, despite the ongoing controversy, Wal-Mart continues to grow. The Associated Press reports that the giant retailer plans to open or expand 484 stores next year. Well, I don't know about you, but I just can't get enough news about Jennifer Lopez, or is it J. Lo or -- thank goodness Sibila Vargas has the very latest for us. S. Lo.

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: J. Lo, S. Lo -- K -- you know, whatever. Jennifer Lopez is venturing out once again and Regis Philbin takes on yet another job. Busy, busy, man. I'll have the details when LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: I have some sad news to report. This story just into CNN. Television pioneer Ralph Edwards has died. Edwards was the long-time host of "This Is Your Life," a 1950s forerunner to today's reality shows. On that show, Edwards surprised celebrities by putting them on live TV, telling them their life stories and reuniting them with old acquaintances. Edwards also created the long-running TV game show, "Truth or Consequences," later hosted by Bob Barker. Ralph Edwards was 92 years old.

Well, in other entertainment news, Jennifer Lopez may be done shunning the spotlight. There is talk, I guess, MTV may be courting her for a new reality show. CNN entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas in Los Angeles with all the riveting details -- Sibila.

VARGAS: K. Lo, I know you. You just can't get enough of J. Lo. She's back in the news.

PHILLIPS: I wish I could sing and dance and do everything that she can, but you know?

VARGAS: I know. And she's got more in the works. The singer, actress, and dancer might be two-stepping her way into the reality TV business.

Looks like Lopez might be going back to her dancing roots with an untitled music reality series on MTV. The project would reportedly chronicle the lives of several dancers in Los Angeles trying to make it into the biz. Now, some of you may remember that Lopez was a former fly girl on FOX's comedy series "In Living Color." Lopez would serve as executive producer of this new MTV show.

And, speaking of MTV, the network is going to new heights with a new high-def music channel in the mountains of Vail, Colorado. The network is launching a new music channel called MHD. It will carry hip-hop, rock, country, pop and reggae tunes. The new studio will be high atop a restaurant complex, so the views must be spectacular.

And you can add Regis Philbin to the list of New Year's Eve hosts. The popular daytime talk show host is adjusting to deal to host a New Year's eve show on FOX. Now, Philbin would host the live celebration from New York City's Times Square on December 31st.

This announcement comes less than a week after ABC named Philbin as a new host of the remake of "This Is Your Life" last year. Now last year, Philbin played host on Dick Clark's "New Year's Rockin' Eve," after Clark fell ill. So Philbin will be a very busy man.

So it will be a bit interesting though, because Ryan Seacrest is going to be hosting "New Year's Rockin' Eve," so it will be interesting to see what people will watch -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Thank you. It's always fun, New Year's Eve. It's Dick Clark though, you know, and the ball coming down ...

VARGAS: I know.

PHILLIPS: ... and we grew up with that.

VARGAS: Exactly.

PHILLIPS: And it's sort of hard not to see that. But, all right, Sibila Vargas, thank you so much.

All right. It's the video of the day that for some reason we have to play over and over and over again. It's Mexican recording artist Juan Gabriel -- pretty spry for a big guy -- in Houston Sunday night. Well, he gets his feet tangled in the mic cable, and you saw the rest there. He went down pretty hard. The show did not go on. Gabriel is in the Houston hospital today with a broken wrist and a concussion. We'll keep you updated.

It's time for that annual celebration of all things hunky. No, no the Wisconsin Cheese-fest. We're talking about beefcake, baby. "People" magazine out with the sexiest man alive issue. We'll show you who made the cut. Of course, LIVE FROM has its own list. Maybe we'll share that with you too.

The final hour of LIVE FROM starts right now.

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