Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Senior Congressional Member Calls for Immediate Pullout; Details Emerge About Alleged Prisoner Abuse; Guns Found in Teen Murder Suspect's Home; Escaped Prisoner Found, One Still On Loose

Aired November 17, 2005 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: From CNN's world headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's the stories that we're working on for you right now, starting with that call for an immediate pullout from Iraq.
A top House Democrat adds pressure to the White House. Will it change policy?

Crossing America's border. A designer making shoes for illegal immigrants. Why is she doing it? She joins me live.

And could your dog prevent heart failure? Making the canine- cardiac connection.

All of that, plus questions from the Vatican about homosexuality in American seminaries.

CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.

How it started, how to end it, and how to prevail in between. The fight for Iraq, start to finish, top to bottom, is front and center in the headlines. Fighting words exchanged on the pre-war intel front, and now a broadside from a senior member of Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: ... saying the war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It's a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public is way ahead of the members of Congress. The United States and coalition groups have done all they can in Iraq. It is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: He's not a household name, but Representative John Murtha, Democrat of Pennsylvania, is a 30-year veteran of the House of Representatives, with 37 years in the Marines. He's the first senior lawmaker to call for U.S. troops to pack up and pull out, and he speaks out even while debate still rages over why troops went in to start with. Murtha's bombshell, fraught with emotion, is setting up shockwaves among his colleagues.

CNN's Ed Henry joins me now live from Capitol Hill. Ed, the vice president came out swinging last night. Now, John Murtha hitting back just as hard today. Is the vice president's credibility on the line? ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, Democrats think so. They've been trying to make that case because the vice president has been a chief architect of this war. His own chief of staff, of course, has been indicted, Scooter Libby, basically on charges that -- not only of lying under oath, but also that the administration through Libby and others manipulated intelligence to justify the war in Iraq and that they smeared a war critic.

Also, we heard Murtha today firing right back at Cheney, giving those remarks last night, basically when he was asked about the vice president and the president swinging back at Democrats. Murtha, who's a decorated Vietnam War veteran, referred to the fact that the president served in the National Guard but the vice president avoided military service.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MURTHA: I like guys who have never been there to criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys that got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needed to be done.

I resent the fact on Veterans Day he criticized Democrats for criticizing them. This is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public knows it. And lashing out at critics doesn't help a bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: Now, we're expecting House Republicans to be speaking in the next hour, firing back at Murtha. I can tell you privately, they're already telling me they think he overstepped it, despite his credentials on defense issues, that he went way too far by calling for immediate withdrawal. They say this is the wrong strategy.

We also have a statement from Ron Bonjean, the spokesman for the speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, saying -- quote -- "This is a policy of surrendering to terrorists. It is one of retreat and defeat and sends the wrong message to our troops who are bravely fighting to keep American families safe at home. The sacrifice made by U.S. troops who are fighting for freedom should not be used by Democrats for political gain."

But I can tell you, Kyra, just a few moments ago, on the Senate side, the Democrat leader, Harry Reid, was also firing away at the president and vice president, calling their attacks -- quote -- "weak and spineless." This rhetoric is just getting hotter and hotter by the minute.

Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well now, Ed, Murtha, definitely a strong voice here, but how much weight does he really carry?

HENRY: That is a question, you're right. Republicans, I can tell you, are privately nervous, not just about this development but the climate right now. You saw just two days ago, the Senate on a bipartisan basis come together and tell the administration they want a plan on how the administration is going to end the war.

But so far, Republicans have really stood shoulder to shoulder with this administration on no timetable, and certainly no timetable for taking out troops but certainly no immediate withdrawal. And I can tell you, Republicans are saying right now, they think Murtha went too far. They think there's no way that the American people would support an immediate withdrawal.

So at this point, I don't really see Republicans, certainly, flocking for this, but I also don't see a lot of Democrats flocking to this. Harry Reid is firing away at the president. But I can tell you, privately Democrats are saying he and other Democratic leaders are nowhere near endorsing this.

Now the House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi, is going to endorse Murtha's plan in the next couple of hours, but that's not a surprise; she's been a war critic from the beginning and very close to Murtha as well.

Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Ed Henry, we'll continue to debate this issue, of course in the next 30 minutes or so. Ed Henry, thank you so much.

And the case of the apparently tortured detainees is what we're talking about next. Iraq's prime minister investigating the treatment of scores of prisoners discovered last Sunday by U.S. forces at an Iraqi government facility. Iraq's minister of human rights says that she's shocked that prisoners may have been abused. But Iraq's interior minister says -- and we quote -- "Nobody has been beheaded or killed. Our forces respect human rights."

You're watching exclusive pictures right now of the bunker in question obtained by CNN senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson. He joins us now live from Baghdad. Nic, tell us how you got these pictures.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, we went to the detention facility because the interior minister had said journalists could go there anytime, liaise with commanders, and they could go in and inspect it. While we were outside, we weren't allowed to film. But we took these pictures using a camera phone carefully hidden. That's the only way we were able to film the facility.

And despite what the interior ministry -- minister said, we weren't allowed in to inspect it, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Now, Nic, let's talk about -- I mean, as we see these pictures, it raises more questions. The debate continues over just how -- who is training them. How are they trained? American troops are there trying to get the Iraqi police and military intact. I mean, is this a reflection on American training, or do you think this is completely different?

ROBERTSON: A lot of this is happening without U.S. control. Early on, the U.S. was involved in training a lot of the -- a lot of the police officers. Still are involved in many cases.

What happened here, it's a separate unit to the police. It's a unit that reports still to the ministry of information, doesn't go through the normal police channels. It's been widely used, this unit, around the country to put down troublesome spots.

In Mosul earlier -- late last year when the police fled their police posts, this unit went there and helped out. But in this particular case, they seem to have stepped, or apparently have stepped beyond the bounds, taking in prisoners, and then according to some people -- without legal process -- and then abusing them. That's what's been discovered in this facility.

Kyra.

PHILLIPS: And as we continue to monitor -- or to watch these exclusive pictures you were able to get, Nic, by just showing up there at the detention facility, just talking about this torture issue. I can only assume it's causing a divide there in the country, a sectarian divide.

ROBERTSON: It is. At funeral just today of a young Sunni man, the family there were complaining that he'd been taken away and beaten by the police. He'd been arrested from the streets by the police, they said, turned up dead three days later. There were huge signs at the funeral, saying, "Stop the terrorism of the interior ministry." The Sunnis feel that the Shia-dominated police and some particular Shia units within the ministry of information are responsible for targeting them. That's causing a lot of animosity.

I talked with a former minister today. He told me he'd heard that there were other such facilities around the country, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson now with those exclusive pictures, live with us from Baghdad. Nic, thank you so much.

And of course, this raises -- continues to raise the question, stay the course or quit the fight? More than two-and-a-half years after U.S. forces pushed into Baghdad, are those the only options left, and if so, which is right? And for whom?

Powerful issues and two powerful intellects to tackle them. Frank Gaffney heads up the Center for Security Policy in Washington. Amy Goodwin hosts the talk show and Web site Democracy Now. Great to have you both.

I want to go back, just for a moment, if you don't mind, Representative John Murtha speaking today, raising a lot of questions, raising a lot of debate. Let's start with a little sound bite from him and we'll get this going.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MURTHA: We're charged, Congress is charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle. And it's our responsibility, our obligation to speak out for them. That's why I'm speaking out. Our military has done everything that has been asked of them. The U.S. cannot accomplish anything further in Iraq, militarily. It's time to bring the troops home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Frank, is that true? Is there nothing else to be accomplished?

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Well, I disagree completely, with great respect for Congressman Murtha. This is not the time to bring the troops home for the simple reason that, were we to do so, all of the sacrifice, all of the investment that we have made in trying to help consolidate the liberation of Iraq would be squandered.

We're looking at a situation that is able to go either way. I believe with our continued support, if we stave off the sort of creeping defeatism that we saw in the Senate last week, or maybe even galloping defeatism that we're hearing this morning, and demonstrate to the Iraqi people that we're standing with them as they try to consolidate their freedom and bring about not only in their own country, but hopefully for the region, a model of something very different than almost all of those countries have ever known, namely, an opportunity for an accountable and responsible government. That's not done yet.

American troops are very much part of making sure that that opportunity isn't squandered. And I think we do need to not only stay the course, but actually redouble our efforts beyond Iraq in a number of ways, which is the subject of a new book we've got out.

PHILLIPS: Well, we'll talk about that in a minute. Amy, let me get you to respond. Is our time up?

AMY GOODWIN, HOST, DEMOCRACY NOW: Well, it's quite something to see Congress member Murtha, who has been a proponent of the war, who's a veteran himself, who went to Iraq. He's been one of the more hawkish Democrats. For him to come out is extremely significant and say something that should have been said by Democrats years ago, of course, first opposing the invasion, and then immediately calling for the withdrawal.

It is so significant that this veteran is saying right now that the U.S. troops have to come home. I mean, how many more lives have to be lost? Not only more than 2,000 U.S. servicemen and women, but we're perhaps talking about more than 100,000 Iraqi lives.

The United States is the irritant right now in Iraq. The United States is uniting people of all political persuasions in Iraq against the occupation. I think it's time for the troops to come home.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson talking and showing us the exclusive footage there, Frank and Amy, of this detention center, a detention center where apparently Iraqi -- Iraqis abusing prisoners there.

Frank, what does this say about the training that is supposed to be taking place of those Iraqi police, Iraqi military, and trying to move this country forward to not operate like Saddam Hussein operated in the past?

GAFFNEY: It says to me that there's a lot more to be done. I think the idea that that will not happen if we're gone is fanciful at best and ridiculous at worst.

We're looking at a country that is no longer under occupation. We're there helping a sovereign government. It is a government that getting its feet on the ground. It is a government that is getting electoral mandates. It is a government that is implementing now a new constitution.

And if you want to see carnage, if you want to see bloodshed, if you want to see, as I said, the loss of everything that we've tried to bring about, and not just in Iraq and for the Iraqi people, but this is the point. This is a war for the free world. It is a front in that war that we're fighting in Iraq. But believe me, were we now to cash in and to do exactly what the worst of the enemies over there, the Islamo-fascists, want us to do, they will be bringing this right to us, not just in places like France and Australia, but here in the United States, as well.

PHILLIPS: Amy, Frank does bring up an interesting point. I mean, this is what I remember when I was overseas covering the war. You know, a lot of men and women not necessarily agreeing with what was happening, but basically saying if we do pull out, what happens next? I mean, we're in. We have to stay the fight. And we'd rather be fighting the enemy overseas than here in the United States like what we saw on 9/11.

GOODWIN: Kyra, let me quote General William Odum. This is a man who was, under President Reagan, head of the National Security Agency. He wrote a piece recently that said, "What's wrong with cutting and running?"

And I can only think, Kyra, when you showed that footage that Nic Robertson had of men being -- more than 100 men, being held and tortured by the Iraqis, you don't have to go back to Saddam Hussein's time to talk about torture. What about something more recent? What about what has happened at Abu Ghraib? What about what has happened at Guantanamo? Unfortunately, it's the United States that's becoming the symbol of torture in the world. The United States has to pull out of Iraq for the freedom of the Iraqi people.

PHILLIPS: Pre-war intelligence, Frank, I've got to address this with you. Actually had two military commanders, one active, one that is not active any longer, say to me, we basically were told by intelligence folks that this is why we needed to go to war. Here's the intel. And they basically said to me they believed it.

But then once the war started and looking at the situation now and the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction, they're sort of thinking, wow, we were sold a bill of goods, but we got to continue on because the president of the United States is our boss.

GAFFNEY: Well, two points. One, the freedom that Amy has just alluded to that the Iraqi people would enjoy were we to pull out prematurely in defeat, and that's clearly how this would be perceived, would be approximately the freedom that the people of South Vietnam enjoy even today, namely to say, none, having been crushed by our enemies after we pulled out.

As to pre-war intelligence as to the leadership that was exercised by President Bush, I happen to think that on the basis of information that is inherently imperfect, when you're trying to penetrate a closed and totalitarian system concealing such information, was the right thing to do. And I think it was the right thing to do, even knowing what we know today, not least because I would have thought that people like Amy and a lot of other folks in this country who pay lip service to the idea of freedom would have been very proud of this country for helping bring it about in the people's experience in Iraq.

PHILLIPS: I've got to let Amy -- I've got to let Amy respond. Real quickly, Amy, to the lip service, then we got to go.

GOODWIN: Kyra, we're talking about the truth right now. It is absolutely critical that we don't turn to the Democrats, we don't turn to the Republicans. I think, as Congress member Murtha said, the American people are way ahead of both. As well as lots of service members who are coming back from Iraq right now and are saying, no, what has happened there is wrong. I think we should follow the lead of the American people.

The Democrats, by the way, are not providing the leadership. Murtha is way out there ahead of many people, including the former Democratic presidential candidate, Kerry, who voted to authorize the invasion and even when the WMD issue came out and it became clear -- it was clear back then, by the way, that WMDs were not the reason for the war -- he still said he would have voted to authorize the invasion.

GAFFNEY: So he's right.

GOODWIN: Democrats and Republicans should look to the American people for leadership.

PHILLIPS: Frank Gaffney, Amy Goodwin, great discussion. Thank you both so much.

GAFFNEY: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, one down, one to go. A big development in the search for two escaped killers. This one has a bizarre twist, though. More on the manhunt at LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's go straight to the newsroom. Fredricka Whitfield working new information about that teen suspect accused of killing his girlfriend's parents, a story we continue to follow. Fred?

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. Some court papers were filed today in Pennsylvania involving that case of David Ludwig.

Our Allan Chernoff has been following the story from the beginning. Allan, what do we know about his familiarity with guns?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, the inventory result that was just filed with the court in Pennsylvania is in response to this search warrant that was issued back on Sunday.

And it does show that the home of David Ludwig was filled with arms. In fact, 54 firearms were found by the police officers who went through the house -- Smith and Wessons, Remingtons, magazine pouches, lots of ammunition. So clearly, Ludwig had easy access.

And we do know that his dad was a hunter. On, in fact, David Ludwig's Web site, there was a link to photos of Mr. Ludwig shown with a deer that had been hunted down.

David Ludwig, shown here when his Volkswagen Jetta did crash into a tree after a police chase, is now in prison. He's charged with murdering the parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend, Kara Borden. And he faces the -- life in prison if convicted of the charges. He is also charged with kidnapping the 14-year-old. And she, at the moment, is still being considered a victim in this crime.

Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Allan Chernoff, thanks so much for that update.

So once again, court papers revealing that after a search of the home of David Ludwig, who's an 18-year-old who's accused of killing his girlfriend's parents, these papers reveal that something -- 54 armed weapons were found in his home during that search.

Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Fredricka Whitfield, thank you so much. We'll stay in touch with you.

Meanwhile, a surprising twist in a closely watched manhunt. A convicted killer who escaped from a prison in Iowa was arrested today outside another prison.

Martin Moon and Robert Legendre broke out of the Iowa State Penitentiary Monday by scaling a 30-foot wall. Now one of them, Moon, is safely in custody. Authorities say he was arrested this morning in a stolen car parked outside an Illinois prison. Security officers spotted him during a routine security check. Legendre is still at large.

CNN's Keith Oppenheim is in Fort Madison, Iowa, where Monday's breakout took place. And any word or any ideas on how these two prisoners escaped in the first place? KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are -- we are told the reason that they were able to get out is that they had both worked in an upholstery shop, a furniture shop inside the prison, Kyra. And they used some webbing from that furniture shop to help them scale the wall.

In addition, this is one of the things that will be talked a lot about, is the fact that one of the towers at the prison was unmanned near where the escape took place. Lately, lawmen (ph) had been relying more on an alarm system, a security wire along the perimeter of the penitentiary, as a way to prevent people from getting out. Obviously, it didn't work in this case, and the fact that the tower was unmanned may have made it easier for these two guys to get out.

And by the way, I'll tell you where I'm at right now. I'm at a city council chambers where in 45 minutes, local police and state investigators are going to get together and give us a new conference on the latest half capture, if you will, in this case.

PHILLIPS: Right. Legendre still on the loose. Any sense of where he might be, where authorities are looking? These two, were they traveling together? And kind of give us the details of that.

OPPENHEIM: Well, so far I don't know the answers to those questions specifically. Only that police were telling me that, at the time of the escape, it was generally believed that these two had developed a connection in prison and decided to get out together. Whether they stayed together isn't clear.

It's believed that one of them took a bicycle from the prison grounds, then took it to a neighborhood about a mile and a half away in Fort Madison, stole a vehicle, and the two of them left in that vehicle, a gold, 1995 Pontiac Bonneville.

Moon was found in a stolen car -- I'm not sure if it's the same one or not; I don't believe it is, but I don't know for sure -- at a prison, which in itself is a very strange location for him to be. Why is he at a prison about 250 miles or so away from here? But he was found alone.

So the question is how long did they stay together? And at what point did they split up? Certainly, you have to think that investigators are not only looking at half the case solved. But now they have a key clue to solving the other half, to find out where Legendre might be.

PHILLIPS: All right. Keith Oppenheim, we'll stay in touch. Thank you so much.

Meanwhile, we've been talking so much about the Iraq war, so much controversy taking place on the Hill. Now, we're getting new information about war protester, Cindy Sheehan. She's been quite vocal for a number of months. We haven't heard from her in awhile.

Fredricka Whitfield working some new information. Fredricka? WHITFIELD: Well, Cindy Sheehan has become a very familiar face in the protest against the war in Iraq. Well, she was in court yesterday, in a federal court facing charges of protesting outside the White House without a permit. Well, the decision today that she is now being fined $75 for demonstrating without a permit in front of the courthouse.

Now as you recall, yesterday, before going to court, she said that her plans next week for Thanksgiving week would be to protest outside the western White House in Crawford, Texas.

We don't know at this juncture, after hearing of her fine today and being found guilty for protesting without a permit in front of the White House, whether she indeed still plans to lead her protest against the war in Iraq outside the western White House in Crawford, Texas.

You recall, this mother lost her son, Casey, in the war in Iraq, and she's been outspoken against the military involvement ever since.

Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Fred. Thank you so much.

Straight ahead, more of our top story today. A high-ranking congressman says gets out of Iraq in six months. The opposition responds live in just a few minutes. We're going to bring the House GOP response to you when it starts.

But first, let's check in with Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange. What are you working on, Susan?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, I'm looking at two stories. One is at that the red hot housing market might finally be slowing down. Remember, that was the one bright spot when the economy was on the ropes.

Plus, yet another problem for struggling GM. It's not the share price. It's not the Japanese competition. But it is a problem. I'll fill you in with what the company's dealing with now.

That's up next on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Say you got heart troubles? Get a dog. That's what a new medical study proves, and it's something that animal lovers have said, hey, we knew that for a long time.

CNN's Christy Feig details the power of puppy love.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTY FEIG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): According to new research, it may be a good idea for dogs to make rounds at hospitals, not just doctors. Researches studied 76 patients hospitalized for heart failure. They were either visited by a human and dog team, just a human volunteer or had no visitor at all. It seems just a 12-minute visit with a canine friend helped both heart and lung function. In the study, anxiety levels dropped 24 percent for those who got a canine visit, compared with 10 percent for those who only saw a volunteer and no drop for patients who got no visit at all.

DR. ELIZABETH ROSS, CARDIOLOGIST, AMERICAN HEART ASSOCIATION: Patients who were visited by a volunteer and a dog had a drop in levels of adrenaline. They also had a drop in the critical pressure measurements in their heart, suggesting an improvement in cardiac function.

FEIG: The specially trained dogs laid in the patient's bed so the patient was able to touch them. But the results aren't new. Other studies have shown animal-assisted therapy reduces blood pressure in both healthy and hypertensive patients. And it reduces anxiety in hospitalized patients, soothing the mind as well as the body.

ROSS: This suggests that there are many modalities that perhaps can be used to improve quality of life for patients who are learning to live with congestive heart failure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com