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Veterans Speak Out About Iraq Troop Withdrawal

Aired November 22, 2005 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you feel like for all you've been through, that it still needs to be finished?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Hear the answer to that question when CNN's LIVE FROM continues in just a few minutes. We're going to talk more with some war veterans. You've met them here before. We're going to talk about their ideas for success in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Politicians have heated views about the fight for Iraq, but the troops who serve stake -- who serve rather, stake their lives on the mission.

CNN's Tom Foreman has been talking to Iraq war veterans about U.S. policy and prospects for a pull-out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In wheelchairs, on crutches, anywhere they could, casualties of Iraq came to the Potomac River. The Disabled American Veterans arranged this holiday cruise to help these troops move beyond the war that won't go away.

AIRMAN MICHAEL FLETCHER, U.S. AIR FORCE: It's bigger than us. It's bigger than me.

FOREMAN: Airman Michael Fletcher lost an arm, an eye and his nose when his vehicle rolled during a high-speed maneuver in the midst of the battle zone.

(on camera): Has this experience changed your opinion of the war?

FLETCHER: In a way I want us to get out of that country. You know, I'm tired to seeing airmen, soldiers, Marines, you know, getting killed every day, senseless killing. But I don't think it's time to leave, you know? I don't think that . . .

FOREMAN: Why not?

FLETCHER: I don't think they're stable enough.

(voice-over): Many of these troops were in Iraq only weeks ago waging the daily battle with insurgents. Now in rehabilitation at stateside military hospitals, they're watching the political battle over when and how the war might end.

CPL. MATTHEW ZEBACK, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It was about a three foot concrete block, it had wires coming out of the front of it.

FOREMAN: Like many, Marine Corporal Matthew Zeback, who lost two fingers to a makeshift bomb, will talk of duty but not the debate.

(on camera): Should the war be over? Should we be out of there?

ZEBACK: That's not my call, sir. I'm an infantrymen. And that's decided by people much higher than me, sir.

FOREMAN: But you would go back?

ZEBACK: Yes, sir. Today.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Certainly in protests across the land, some veterans are speaking out against the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It makes me sick to think that we're doing this in America's name. We need to bring the troops home.

FOREMAN: But Army Sargent Nick Zwicker, injured when his team stopped an insurgent attack, is not ready to give up the fight.

SGT. NIC ZWICKER, U.S. ARMY: Personal view, if we pulled out right now, everything we've gone after and everything we've started to do over there would pretty much be shot down.

FLETCHER: That means me losing an arm, me losing an eye or whatever, so be it. So be it.

FOREMAN (on camera): And you feel like for all you've been through that it still needs to be finished?

FLETCHER: It needs to be finished.

FOREMAN (voice-over): This was just one group of wounded troops on one rainy day, but seemingly a group that is not willing to give up on this war. At least not yet.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, you may remember that we spoke last week about Iraq and the war and the post-war with some war veterans, past and present. It all came amid all the sound and fury about pulling out or staying put.

Well, we invited them to come back because we had a great conversation. We wanted to start it up again. Steve Robertson is a Gulf War vet whose son is doing a tour in Iraq. Buddy Bucha is a Vietnam vet and recipient of the Medal of Honor. And Steve Robinson is a veteran of Desert Storm. Guys, great to see you -- all three of you -- again.

BUDDY BUCHA, VIETNAM VETERAN: It's good to be back.

STEVE ROBINSON, DESERT STORM VETERAN: Pleasure.

PHILLIPS: Well, here was the idea and why I wanted you guys to come back, and talk about a plan. Whether it's to stay in the fight or get out of Iraq. And actually, Steve Robinson, after the interview we did last week, you had sent an e-mail saying to me, this is what I think. This is what we should do.

So, of course I thought, well, let's see what Bucha and Robertson have to say. So we sort of put together a montage here of what you guys see as a pretty legitimate plan to deal with what's happening in Iraq from the perspective of being a veteran in various wars.

So Steve Robinson, I want to start with you. Declare martial law, seal borders with U.N. forces, disarm the country, hold elections, train Iraqi military, withdraw. It caught my attention. Declare martial law and seal borders with U.N. forces. It seems like pretty tough and drastic measures to take. Can that happen?

ROBINSON: Well, first off, you've got to have the commitment of the United Nations to help us. But something has to happen. There has to be a plan articulated to set the conditions for success. And the prime minister back in 2004, when Iraq became a sovereign nation again, does have the authority to declare martial law in hot spots where insurgents are taking a drastic toll on our U.S. forces.

So while I did e-mail you and give you some ideas from my perspective, they are incredibly, incredibly complex and require the cooperation of the United Nations and, in fact, the world to make Iraq a success.

PHILLIPS: But you feel, definitely, that these would be measures that could make a difference, including sealing the borders with U.N. forces? That would take a lot of men and women to do that, yes? I mean, we're talking about some pretty long borders, some pretty dangerous borders, as well.

ROBINSON: Oh, absolutely. It would take an incredible amount of effort from the whole world to make this work. We cannot -- we could not secure Iraq on our own. And we also have to have the cooperation of the Iraqis themselves. And the prime minister can, if he chooses to, declare martial law in certain cities where insurgents seem to have a foothold, and we go house to house and set the conditions for success.

PHILLIPS: All right. Buddy Bucha. The Bucha plan. Train Iraqi military. Iraqi forces maintain security, challenge insurgency. U.S. troops phase out. Train Iraqi civilians. Iraqi forces maintain security, challenge insurgency. But some would say the U.S. is having such a hard time challenging the insurgency, how are you going to get Iraqi forces to maintain security quickly and effectively?

BUCHA: Well, I think the most important thing we have to focus on is that this whole debate's a little after the fact. This is what we should have done before we entered to make sure that we had the military force, as Rick...

BUCHA: ... what we should have done before we entered to make sure that we had the military force. As Rick Shinseki, a classmate of mine from West Point reminded all of us, we need an enormous number of troops to maintain stability, let alone conduct combat operations.

So now we're confronted with what do we do now?

We're there. The troops are there. They don't speak Arabic. They're not aware of the culture. If you ask most of these troops could they find Afghanistan or Iraq on a map, they'd have difficulty doing it before they got there.

So now we have to take this American force, try to maintain some form of stability and peace while they're there, but most importantly, train a 600,000-man army.

And when that army comes over, Western certified, as it phases in, we phase out. Then it's up to the Iraqi people to maintain the stability of their nation.

Without that will, there's nothing that this nation can impose upon them and have them do.

But don't forget, for years upon years, there was stability in this region, albeit under the type of government we don't support. But there was stability.

And other countries in the region, Iran where I lived for seven years, has peace, stability. And they maintain their own public sense of order and they do it with their own indigenous people and that's the challenge.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let me ask you about that then.

You mentioned stability, stability prior.

John Murtha had this to say -- his opinion is you get out of there because he feels there will be less terrorism if the U.S. pulls out because the U.S. military is the target. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MURTHA (D-PA): I said, Wolf, and I believe this very strongly, there will be less terrorism. Just because the president, just because the White House says there's going to be more terrorism if we withdraw doesn't make it so. He said there's going to be weapons of mass destruction, they said oil was going to pay for it, they said there was an al Qaeda connection. That's not necessarily true.

I predict the opposite. I think there will be less terrorism. We've become the target. We're the ones that have become the enemy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Buddy, what do you think?

BUCHA: Well, I have to agree with Jack. Jack has a lot of wisdom. He's been to a lot of places.

And I think one of the most important things for us to remember, we are not necessarily welcome guests in a foreign land. We came there under the use of force, under the pretense of bringing stability, toppling a government without a plan, without a perfect objective, without something that was clear for everyone to know.

There's all this debate on exit strategy. If you don't have an objective, you don't have an exit strategy. If you have an objective, the simple exit strategy is achieve your objective, then you exit. If we are going to stay there, we are known as occupiers.

And I have lived in the region for seven years of my life. Terrorism, acts of violence, are part of the culture that's there. The idea that Iraqis carry arms, that's very much a part of the culture. You could not go to Kurdistan or among the Kurdish tribes and ask them to leave their arms behind. That's part of their culture. It's part of what they represent.

So we have to understand that this is a different world, a different culture, been there a lot longer than we've been on the face of the Earth. This goes back -- this is the birthplace of the Judeo- Christian culture.

And for us to now come in intervening, it conjures up all kinds of ideas from the old days of the Crusades and everything else. We're an occupier, and therefore we are the target.

PHILLIPS: Steve Robertson, I'm going to want you to respond.

But we're going to take a quick break. We're going to come right back and we're going to pick it up with you, Steve Robertson.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: We're continuing our conversation on Iraq with three veterans.

Steve Robertson, a Gulf War vet whose son is doing a tour in Iraq; Buddy Bucha, Vietnam vet, recipient of the Medal of Honor; and Steve Robinson, veteran of Desert Storm. And we heard the Robinson plan, the Bucha plan; now we're going to get to the Robertson plan.

And, Steve Robertson, we were just coming out of Buddy Bucha agreeing with John Murtha in that if U.S. troops pull out, because he sees U.S. troops as the target, there will be less terrorism.

You say stay the course, establish Iraqi leadership, Iraqi citizens army, public support for U.S. troops extremely important, adequate funding from Congress.

Sell me your plan.

STEVE ROBERTSON, GULF WAR VETERAN: Well, first of all, ever since our country was established, the military follows the guidance provided by the elected leadership. And I think that's very, very important.

As you heard so many of the young men and women that were interviewed prior to our segment say, that it's not their decision as to whether to pull out or to stay, that's much higher pay grade, which brings me to my next point.

After 20 years in the military, I helped develop war plans. I know that they're classified. And I know that they cover everything from A to Z.

It would seem very foolish to expose whatever type of exit strategy or any of your strategy publicly to give your enemy the opportunity to learn what you're thinking and what you're planning on doing.

So for those that say that there isn't an exit strategy, maybe they've got greater access to classified material than any of the rest of us.

PHILLIPS: But, Steve Robertson, that's been a big part of the controversy is that, boy, the U.S. military was ready for the beginning of this war -- the air strikes well coordinated, from the strike fighters to the Tomahawks to soldiers and Marines making entry and taking down Baghdad.

It's after the fact that so many critics are coming forward and saying there was no kind of during-after plan, get out of Iraq plan.

ROBERTSON: Well, if you stop and think about the original Gulf War, there was really no exit strategy going into that. We won that in 100 hours. And yet we maintained troops there until we did the invasion on Iraq.

So to say that there is no exit strategy I think would be a little premature. Maybe it hasn't been made known to the public.

But I think one of the things you have to understand is that the president of the United States has a national security advisory council. There's also the Pentagon officials. They've got tons of classified material and information that none of us have.

For us to be doing the Monday morning quarterback I think is absolutely wrong. I fully believe that we need to support the troops. I don't think you can support the troops and oppose the war at the same time. That's inconsistent.

PHILLIPS: The Robinson plan, the Bucha plan, the Robertson plan -- I want to give you a chance, the three of you, to maybe talk among yourselves.

Steve Robinson, anything stand out with what Buddy Bucha said, or Steve Robertson said, that maybe you want to challenge.

ROBINSON: Well, I don't think stay the course is a plan. I don't think it's actionable. I don't think it's an actionable military objective.

I think that -- I think also, Steve Robertson is correct. We obviously don't want to lay out an exit strategy for all to see. However, I think what Congressman Murtha was trying to say was that even he, in his position, is not aware of what the plans are to exit from Iraq. And he's asking, what is the plan? How do we support it? How do we achieve the objective?

And so I think that's really something that all leaders, whether they be VSOs or congressional leaders, have a right to know that we have something in place that is going to allow us to set the conditions for success.

PHILLIPS: OK, you're leading me to into another quick sound byte with John Murtha about preventing another Vietnam. And Buddy, I want to get your take on this, and Steve Robertson, get you to respond to the other war plans we laid out. This is what John Murtha had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MURTHA: In 1963, Secretary McNamara predicted that we'd be out of there in two years. We had 2,200 casualties in 1965, two years later after he made that prediction.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You're talking about Vietnam?

MURTHA: From that time on -- I'm talking about Vietnam. From that time on, we had 53,000 casualties. I'm trying to prevent another Vietnam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: What do you think about that, Buddy? You fought in Vietnam. You're a medal of war -- a Medal of Honor recipient. And also, we can't forget "The Fog of War," when that documentary came out and just listening to McNamara and how he just was going back and forth on how we shouldn't have been there.

BUCHA: Well, I think Vietnam is a lesson for all of us. And to both my panelists, I would suggest the following. One, Vietnam, our objective was not unlike the objective we hear people speaking about today, to stop communism. It's the same as stopping terrorism. There's absolutely no finite end to that. And it presumes there's a certain number of communists or terrorists in the world and if you kill enough of them, then they will eventually be gone. And I think all of us would say that was nonsense.

As to not having an exit strategy -- exit strategy is simple. I said it the last time. You walk, you ride, you fly or you sail. It's accomplishing an objective that allows you to exit. How to exit is simple. You just leave. What you need to do in order to exit is the challenge.

Desert Storm I, President Bush was crystal clear. Expel the Iraqi forces from the country of Kuwait. When that was done, you can come home, leaving behind what you need, sufficient force to consolidate the battlefield and provide some transitional security.

In this particular case, no one took the time to set out the objective. Nor did they try to calculate how much this would cost, how many troops it would take, and what kind of political power it would require. Don't forget, the Israelis and Russians went into Middle Eastern countries with overwhelming military force. Absent political and economic support, they had to withdraw.

We went into this, I believe, because we were anxious to go to war. Secretary Rumsfeld made a statement once to a troop. He said, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had. No, you respond to an attack with the army you have, leaving to history the judgment whether you were prepared.

You go to war that you choose only after you've assembled a military force, the political force and the economic force and made sure that your populace is willing to endure the cost. That is something we did not do because we were unwilling to state a clear, finite, concise objective that this military force was going to be expected to achieve.

That's the challenge. Vietnam, we didn't have it. We don't have it now. We had it in Desert Storm I. No one has said, pull out precipitously. I haven't heard one person say that. Jack Murtha said, a phased withdrawal.

Everybody is saying, give us an objective that's crystal clear, give the troops the resources and support to achieve it. They'll do it. I have no doubt in my mind. And then we can withdraw in a very phased and orderly manner.

PHILLIPS: Guys, I hate to say this -- I've got 15 seconds to get us to break. We've got to pay the bills. I hate saying this.

Steve Robinson, Buddy Bucha, Steve Robertson. Guys, will you promise to come back?

BUCHA: Yes, ma'am.

ROBERTSON: Anytime. PHILLIPS: Great discussion. I appreciate all three of you so much. Quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Yo-yo water balls, latex balloons, small parts. A watchdog group is making a list of hazardous toys that your child might want for the holidays.

CNN's Kimberly Osias is checking it twice, live in Washington. All right, Kimberly. What are the danger toys?

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kyra, well, how great is my job? I get to play with toys today, right?

PHILLIPS: Yes, really. Easy day.

OSIAS: Not bad. No kidding. Good work if you can get it. Well, you mention those yo-yo water balls. This is the most egregious offender. At least that's according to the watchdog group PIRG that did this study. The reason it's so bad is because of this elastic right here. Now, the way this toy operates is kids just kind of whip it around. Now, in so doing, they can now bonk themselves in the eye or the head.

So I talked to the U.S. Consumer Product and Safety Commission. And what they said, render it useless. Go ahead and just cut it right here. Then it's OK to play with.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, another concern, of course, choking. I mean, I remember my mom telling me, nope, you can't have that, you can have this. And even young parents now -- what are parents -- what do they need to look out for?

OSIAS: Well, really size. That's what critical. You want a good test, real kind of rudimentary test, you take a toilet paper roll. Everybody has one of these lying around. And if it's small enough to fit inside the roll, no go.

Now, this is an example of a very good toy. It belongs to one of our producers. Of course, it's a good toy, she did her checking twice and thrice. And this is a stallion, a black stallion, perfectly good size, doesn't fit in, so you're good to go.

PHILLIPS: All right, and of course, noises. Because the decibels in the ears and all that. And chemicals, too. A lot to check on. Kimberly Osias, thank you so much.

OSIAS: You bet.

PHILLIPS: Well, turkey and stuffing, crowds and traffic jams. What would Thanksgiving be without them? We've got your Travel sit rep (ph) coming up in the next hour of LIVE FROM. Don't go away.

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