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House Panel Holds Hearing on Katrina's Impact; Law Schools Challenge Military Visits

Aired December 06, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Without a home, without a job, but not without hope. Live pictures once again as they've come to Capitol Hill representing the hundreds of thousands of Hurricane Katrina evacuees to tell the lawmakers exactly what they've been through. Some say it was just pure hell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICIA THOMPSON, NEW ORLEANS EVACUEE: This is how we made it: we slept next to dead bodies, we slept on streets, at least four times, next to human feces and urine. There was garbage everywhere in this city -- in the city. Panic and fear had taken over.

The way we were treated by police was demoralizing and inhuman. We were cursed when we asked for help for our elderly. We had guns aimed at us by the police who were supposed to be there to protect and serve. They made everybody sit on the ground with their hands in the air, even babies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: CNN's Andrea Koppel is also there.

Andrea, what do lawmakers hope to accomplish at these hearings?

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, this is part of a series of hearings that the House Select Committee on the Katrina Response is holding. They started in September, and they're going to issue a report in February to the House itself, in which they look at, really, how Katrina response was handled by both the federal and local governments.

Today's hearing specifically had to do, as you saw there with Ms. Thompson, with real people. They wanted to hear in the words of one of the aides to Chairman Davis, they wanted to hear unfiltered from those who were most affected by this, and that was the predominantly African-American community of Louisiana.

PHILLIPS: Andrea -- there we go. We got connected. Sorry.

KOPPEL: Yes.

PHILLIPS: As we -- because we've been sort of following this since it started, and we're hearing from various evacuees right now. We haven't gotten to any of the community leaders yet. I was looking at the list: the president and CEO from the National Black Chamber of Commerce, vice mayor of Newport News, Virginia, executive director of the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights. But as I'm listening to these evacuees -- I've heard from three so far -- they're talking a lot about police and military action and how they felt they were treated unfairly.

Is the -- is the point to try and get to abuse of power issues? Or is it about housing and getting the funds that they need to rebuild? Because so far, I'm just hearing complaints about law enforcement.

KOPPEL: Right. There are two -- there are going to be two panels of witnesses, as you pointed out. We're hearing right now from the evacuees themselves, from the people who were living in New Orleans at the time that the hurricane hit.

The second panel is, again, as you pointed out, is going to be predominantly African-American business leaders, people who are going to say to the committee, look, New Orleans is 67 percent or more African-American, we should be the ones who were given these big contracts for rebuilding, and how can you expect New Orleans residents to return if they don't have jobs?

So many -- one of the allegations that one of the representatives who was involved in picking witnesses is saying that most of the contracts are going to the big companies, not to the ones from New Orleans. Not to the African-Americans, to the minority-owned businesses -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Got it. So it's about bringing the people of New Orleans back and employing the people of New Orleans as the rebuilding goes forward.

KOPPEL: Right. And it's also about -- as you heard from Patricia Thompson, it's a little like speaking to a lot the allegations made by African-Americans and others during the aftermath of Katrina and since that African-Americans were singled out for not just abuse, but also didn't get the help that many other New Orleans residents in other states -- that they got.

And they're going to look into these. There's actually been one class action lawsuit that's already been filed alleging human rights abuses, and that is some of the testimony that you're hearing, again, today.

PHILLIPS: Got it. We'll keep following it. Andrea Koppel, I know you're there, too. We'll check in with you. Thank you so much.

KOPPEL: Sure.

PHILLIPS: And Katrina victims have so many questions, as you know. They're having trouble getting a lot of answers, too. So we're giving you a chance to ask the top man in the Gulf. Vice Admiral Thad Allen joins us live 3:00 Eastern today. He's going to take some of your e-mail questions. Just drop us a line at LIVEFROM@CNN.com. Don't miss it, today at 3:00 Eastern, noon Pacific, only right here on LIVE FROM.

Well, do U.S. law schools have the right to close their doors to military recruiters, even if they accept federal funding? That's what lawyers for the schools argued at the Supreme Court hearing today. They say the Pentagon's don't ask, don't tell policy is anti-gay, and having military recruiters on campus would violate school rules against discrimination.

Several justices sounded skeptical.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The armed forces have never been wildly popular on most campuses, but the tons of federal money contributed to colleges and universities certainly has. Many law schools limit the access military recruiters can have to their graduating students because they believe the Defense Department's don't ask, don't tell policy discriminates against their gay students.

Congress got involved in 1994 with a new law. No access to the law school, then no federal funds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think you can have it both ways. I don't think you can take all the money but not allow the recruiters to come on campus.

FRANKEN: Now, after all these year, the Supreme Court will decide whether that's constitutional, whether the government can force law schools to, in effect, accept policies they oppose if they want their money.

Joshua Rosenkrantz (ph) will argue today for the university.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their policy is, we do not discriminate, we do not abet others who discriminate. No exceptions. The military is demanding an exception to those policies.

FRANKEN: Since 9/11 and the Iraq war, the administration has taken an aggressive stand because military recruiters need to replenish their supply of JAGs, or judge advocate general lawyers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The military is a terrific employer and should have a chance, as with any other employer, to be treated as any other employer.

FRANKEN (on camera): The justices will have to decide between the military, which argues it only wants treatment equal to that given all legal recruiters, and the law schools, who insist they want equal treatment for all of their students, including gay students.

Bob Franken, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: All right. Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us from Washington.

Jeff, you were there inside the courtroom. Let's talk about both sides, and who you think had the stronger case.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, sometimes the justices are really at the tops of their games. And today was a terrific argument.

You had the justices very engaged, very knowledgeable about the facts of the case, and it was, I thought, a very clear indication from the justices that they were leaning in favor of the government, upholding this law that said, if you want the money, you've got to admit the military recruiters.

PHILLIPS: How did this all come about? How did it -- how did it get to this point? Give us a little background on this case.

TOOBIN: Well, what happened was, the law schools wanted to register some way of protesting the don't ask, don't tell policy. They have a policy that if you discriminate on the basis of race, gender, or sexual orientation, you can't recruit on these law school campuses.

They said the military discriminates, in their view. So the military can't come on campus.

Congress said -- Congress was outraged by this and they said, OK, you want your fancy principles? Fine. We're going to not just withhold money from your law schools, we'll withhold money from the entire university. That means the medical schools, the engineering schools, hundreds of millions of dollars in certain cases, if you continue to discriminate in any part of the school.

The universities, the law schools, went to court and said, this is a violation of our free speech rights. You can't penalize us this much for merely keeping the recruiters off campus.

That's the issue in front of the court, whether that's permissible or not.

PHILLIPS: Jeffrey, let's listen to what Justice Kennedy had to say when were you there in the courtroom.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY, U.S. SUPREME COURT: They could organize a student protest at the hiring interview room so that everybody jeers when the applicant comes in the door? And the school could organize that? When it's, say, a job fair and all the employers are there, but then they jeer?

Just the school organizes a line jeering both the recruiters and the applicants? That's equal access?

PAUL CLEMENT, SOLICITOR GENERAL: I think that would be equal access. I think you have to draw a practical line here between...

KENNEDY: I'm surprised you...

CLEMENT: ... between access and allowing the speech. But I think you have to be...

JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA, U.S. SUPREME COURT: You're not going to be an Army recruiter, are you?

(LAUGHTER)

CLEMENT: I don't think the military and the Army recruiters -- and I won't be one of them. But I think the Army recruiters are not worried about being confronted with speech. They are worried about actually not being allowed on to the same...

SCALIA: Well, I'm worried about having students driven off. And if you have jeering and picketing, do you really think that that fulfills the purposes of this amendment?

CLEMENT: I don't know if it would fulfill every purpose, but I think the amendment has to accommodate the First Amendment...

KENNEDY: Jeering and picketing if a black person came to recruit and the people didn't -- and the school faculty didn't like blacks? I think that's an extraordinary position you are taking.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Jeffrey, I think Justice Scalia would probably make a pretty good recruiter, if you ask me. But...

TOOBIN: You know, at least once a day in the Supreme Court, Justice Scalia breaks up the group with a wisecrack. I mean, there's nothing unusual about that. And he's a pretty funny guy.

PHILLIPS: It makes it a little less tense.

TOOBIN: Absolutely.

PHILLIPS: Two things that caught my attention, equal access, and then I was hearing a little from both sides on the issue of intimidation.

TOOBIN: Well, and also free speech. Justice Kennedy in that -- wasn't entirely clear in that section, but throughout the argument he was saying, look, if you -- if you universities want to make a statement about don't ask, don't tell, that you're opposed to it, fine. Have a protest, give out -- give out leaflets, picket, but don't throw -- don't throw the recruiters off campus.

That's -- that's -- that's withholding speech. He's saying, make more speech. Make protests, but don't punish the recruiters.

And I thought that argument really resonated with other members of the court, that the idea of throwing the recruiters off was an extreme remedy, when, in fact, what they should do is simply let protesters go forward, let people protest, and that's a way to vindicate the First Amendment, not throwing people off campus.

PHILLIPS: So whatever happens here, I wonder if that will have an impact on the Pentagon policy, if, indeed, the Pentagon may change its policy?

TOOBIN: Boy, I don't think so. Not in this administration.

PHILLIPS: It's a long shot?

TOOBIN: I mean, this administration is pretty committed to keeping gays out of the military. I mean, that was -- the Clinton administration, you know, got burned raising that issue very early in Bill Clinton's presidency. President Bush has no inclination to, you know, allow gays more access.

And frankly, I think the law schools are going to lose this case. But the issue of protesting about don't ask, don't tell on campus and elsewhere will certainly be -- it will remain legal and it will remain active.

PHILLIPS: Jeffrey Toobin. Thanks.

TOOBIN: See you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right.

Well, former House majority leader Tom DeLay could go on trial early next year on charges that he violated Texas election laws. A judge dismissed a conspiracy charge against DeLay yesterday, but the judge allowed prosecutors to proceed with a more serious charge that DeLay laundered money to provide illegal corporate funding for Texas legislative candidates.

DeLay can't reclaim his House leadership post until that case is resolved. And some observers say that House Republicans may name a permanent replacement before that happens.

Well, gripping testimony and a defiant Saddam Hussein. A dramatic day in court. CNN is there.

The news keeps coming. We're going to keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: An especially bloody insurgent attack rocks a police academy in Baghdad. The casualties include more than 100 officers and recruits.

CNN's Aneesh Raman has the latest on that and a report that another American may have been taken hostage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Two insurgents groups in Iraq claiming responsibility for twin suicide bombings that detonated this afternoon at a Baghdad police academy. The explosions left at least 36 people killed, 72 others wounded, according to Iraqi police.

The U.S. military says the first bomber detonated outside of a classroom at the police academy. The initial explosion forced the people in that area to rush to a bunker. That, they say, is where the second suicide bomber detonated.

Immediately, casualties were rushed to neighboring hospitals. It is the deadliest attack against Iraqi security forces in Iraq in months, and raises huge concerns about security at this facility.

The attacks we've seen prior have been suicide bombers who detonate in line with the recruits. It seems today these two suicide bombers were able to penetrate that outer security, actually enter into this facility, and cause incredibly high casualties.

Now, both al Qaeda in Iraq, the group headed by Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, and the Islamic Army in Iraq are claiming responsibility. That latter group is also saying that it has an American hostage in video released today on Arabic language news channel Al-Jazeera of the Islamic Army in Iraq.

From them, the group shows an American hostage they have in custody in the video. A man is seated on a plastic chair. His hands bound, it seems, behind his back. Also, the front of a U.S. passport is shown.

The group demands, they say, within 48 hours the U.S. military must release all prisoners that are part of this insurgent group, otherwise they will kill the hostage. Now, the U.S. embassy contacted in Baghdad essentially is finding out information as we are. They have no comment at this time.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, they sat behind curtains, altered their voices and withheld their names. But if their stories are true, the latest witnesses in the crimes against humanity trial against Saddam Hussein lifted a veil of secrecy that's been in place for decades.

Known only as Witnesses A, B, C, D, and E, they told of horrendous cruelty in the aftermath of a failed attempt to kill the Iraqi president in 1982. Witness A was 16 years old at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He said, "Take off your clothes." He hit me with the pistol and forced me. I was forced to take my clothes. And he lifted my legs upward, and he hit me with cables, and asked me to talk.

It's like a feast (ph). There were about five people. About five officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The "he" this woman speaks of is an Iraqi intelligence officer who died of cancer last month. Of the people on trial, seven former officials, plus Saddam. The witness told the judge she blames Hussein. And whom does Hussein believe -- or blame?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. IRAQI DICTATOR (through translator): Americans and Zionists want to execute Saddam Hussein. So what? Saddam Hussein gave himself to the people when he was a high school student. I was -- I was sentenced to execution three times.

This is not the first time. Saddam Hussein is not the first -- not even his comrades. We don't -- we're not afraid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, when trial broke for the day, just before 8:00 p.m. Baghdad time, the ousted dictator declared he won't be coming back. We'll know tomorrow one way or the other.

Well, Saddam Hussein is being tried for an alleged massacre in the town of Dujail 23 years ago. An episode few in the outside world had ever heard of before that trial started. But many other cases, some of them much better known, are also being prepared or investigated.

Here's a look at those.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS (voice over): Analysts say the next case to go to trial against Saddam Hussein could be for his role in the Anfal campaign of the mid-1980s. It was aimed at displacing Kurds from territory in northeast Iraq. The U.S. State Department says as many as 182,000 Kurdish men, women and children went missing. Many of them are believed to have been killed.

One of the most notorious atrocities allegedly committed by Saddam Hussein, chemical attacks against more than 40 Kurdish villages in 1988. The State Department says 5,000 people were killed in one such attack in the northern Iraqi town of Halabja.

Investigators are also searching for a mass gravesites around Iraq. It is believed there may be evidence of torture and killings of hundreds of others during Saddam Hussein's three decades in power.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, facing continued criticism over Iraq, the Bush administration is keeping up its campaign to lay out its plan for victory. Today was Vice President Dick Cheney front and center, speaking to U.S. troops at Fort Drum in upstate New York. Some of those camouflage-clad soldiers returned from Iraq just last month. Cheney told the troops that disaster will follow if forces withdraw too early from Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To leave that country before the job is done would be to hand Iraq over to car bombers and assassins. That nation would return to the rule of tyrants, become a massive source of instability in the Middle East, and be a staging area for ever-greater attacks against America and other civilized nations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Cheney softened his tone against Democrats, making only a passing reference to some who have advocated a sudden withdrawal of forces.

Well, sharing their pain. Hurricane Katrina's survivors testifying on Capitol Hill right now.

LIVE FROM'S got all the news that you want this afternoon. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, forget the free hotel rooms, rental cars and trips to Hawaii. One airline is offering one heck of a deal for frequent flyers. Listen to this.

Virgin Atlantic Airways says it will offer its flying club members free trips to space. The cost is two million frequent flyer miles, that's all. You have time to save. Virgin Galactic, the unit of Virgin group that plans to offer the trips, says they' won't be available for two and a half years.

Movie lovers had better get used to all those commercials before the film starts. It looks like they're here to stay.

Susan Lisovicz joins us live from the New York Stock Exchange for more on that story.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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