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Iraqi-Americans Respond to Bush Speech; Saddam Absent from Trial; Fuel Tanker on Fire in San Diego
Aired December 07, 2005 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: From CNN's world headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Kyra Phillips. Here's the stories we're working on for you right now.
Strategy in Iraq: President Bush lays out more of his plan today. We'll have reaction to that from Iraqi-Americans.
Congressman John Murtha, one of the Iraq war's toughest critics, expected to react live this hour to the president.
Plus an empty seat at the Saddam Hussein trial. The star defendant refuses to show up in court.
All that and more straight ahead. CNN's LIVE FROM starts right now.
In the wavering fight against terror, economic progress, stability, Iraqi people choosing freedom, victory there won step by step. We're talking hot points repeated today throughout President Bush's second in a series of addresses on the state of the war.
He remembered today, Pearl Harbor Day, as the anniversary of another massive attack which thrust America into armed conflict. But unlike Japan in the 1940s, the president underscores plans to hand off and eventual plan to get out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As we fight the terrorists, we're working to build capable and effective Iraqi security forces so they can take the lead in the fight and eventually take responsibility for the safety and security of their citizens without major foreign assistance.
By fighting the terrorists in Iraq, we are confronting a direct threat to the American people. And we'll accept nothing less than complete victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Initial reaction from congressional Democrats, as you'd expect, was quick and contrary. The first from a member of the Senate Armed Forces Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: All of us believe that the United States can and will succeed, but today, after 3 1/2 years and now two speeches in two weeks, the president still has not fully explained what steps we need to take to achieve that success.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And we're expecting more reaction from key Democrats later this half hour, very vocal Iraq war opponent, Pennsylvania's John Murtha scheduled to speak shortly from Capitol Hill. We'll bring you his comments.
The president spoke today before the Council on Foreign Relations. That's a nonpartisan group of scholar, writers and think tank types. Something of a departure from the, let's say, friendlier gatherings the president commonly addresses for key policy speeches. No victory banners, no uniformed troops, and he took no questions afterwards.
The council is an old one, relatively speaking, dissecting and promoting awareness of U.S. foreign policy since 1921. Council members on occasion are harshly critical of the White House.
But enough political analysis and Washington jargon. President Bush's address today was meant to resound as loudly with Iraqi people as with his supporters and critics. We're wondering if it did.
Joining me now in Washington, Dr. Ali Alattar, physician and U.S. resident since 1982 and Dr. Maha Alattar, a neurologist, university professor and an Iraqi-American as well. Welcome to you both. And I should point out same last name, but not related.
DR. ALI ALATTAR, PHYSICIAN: True.
DR. MAHA ALATTAR, NEUROLOGIST/PROFESSOR: That's right.
PHILLIPS: All right. Well, first of all, let me just get your overall reaction to the speech and what stood out? Were you happy? Were you disappointed? Maha, let's start with you.
M. ALATTAR: Actually, I'm happy. I'm always happy to see President Bush or any other U.S. official talk about the progress in Iraq, something that we very rarely hear about. We only hear about the bad news.
There is bad news. American soldiers dying. Iraqis are dying. But at the same time, there is a parallel reality that's always missed. And the reality is that the Iraqi community, small communities, are rebuilding themselves slowly but surely.
They're also training. It will take a long time to actually get the country to what the world can actually perceive as a true, full prosperous Iraq. It will take a few years, because we always miss out on what really happened during the past 34 years. We have to put this in perspective. A lot of infrastructure have been destroyed. And so I hope that the world will be more patient with what Iraqis have accomplished over the past 2 1/2 years. And also to look and see that Iraqis are very motivated to rebuild their country and use any assistance possible, instead of concentrating on the pessimism and only on the dark side of what's going on in Iraq right now.
PHILLIPS: Ali, you supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq also, however, you have made it clear that the administration, you say, has made mistakes in its Iraq policy. Do you feel better after hearing the president today or do you still stick with that disappointment?
A. ALATTAR: Kyra, if you allow me, let me start with this. I want to thank the American people on behalf of the Iraqis. Today we have 27 million Iraqis free because of their sacrifice and their support for this president and this administration. And I would agree with the president, that we should not accept anything short victory and defeat over these terrorists and Saddamists.
And I feel much better today. I think the president did not hide anything from the American public and American people. That we have difficulties in Iraq. We may -- committed some mistakes, although he didn't say it, but I think we did some mistakes.
PHILLIPS: You think one of the biggest mistakes was disbanding the Iraqi military, right?
A. ALATTAR: Disbanding the Iraqi army, yes. Because what we should have done was remove the top layers and keeping the structure of the army and we can improve on that.
PHILLIPS: But wasn't -- wasn't there a lot of corruption within that military, though, Ali?
A. ALATTAR: The corruption was not in the soldiers and those who died. The corruption was in the leadership. And I think what we did, we put 400,000 families at risk of unemployment, and they're vulnerable to be hired by the terrorists for $100 to kill an innocent people. And -- or bomb, or put a roadside bomb.
This is what we did. And I think it was a mistake, and we should admit that. But this does not say the purpose and the cause was not noble, to go and liberate Iraq and free the Iraqis. This is -- we should differentiate between these two.
The other thing, which I was really happy to hear from the president, is about the corruption in the Iraqi government, the previous government, or during the CPA ruling period. There was a lot of corruption and we should not shut our eyes. And we should always ask for transparency. And we should put these people to justice, those who are responsible for the corruption, because they are -- they go hand by hand with the terrorists.
I think if we can correct the terrorism activities surgically, I think the corruption is a cancer, so we should really be careful, because if we lose the battle with corruption, we can lose the whole country and we can lose our whole cause. And we will not be able to honor the sacrifices of the fine men and women in uniform, who sacrificed with their lives for this cause.
PHILLIPS: Both -- both of you talk about the sacrifice, on behalf of the U.S. and also your families. The president did talk about those that see this war close up. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Many who once questioned democracy are coming off the fence. They're choosing the side of freedom. This is quiet, steady progress. It doesn't always make the headlines in the evening news, but it's real. And it's important. And it is unmistakable to those who see it close up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Maha, you talk to your family members in Baghdad and friends in other parts Iraq. They're seeing this close up. Do they see success or do they see failure?
M. ALATTAR: I think they see -- overall, they see success in that, like I said if you look at -- closely at the community and how the communities are building themselves, then they do claim success.
However, on a larger scale, militarily and defeating the insurgency, they see success, but it's very, very slow. And they hope that it would come sooner.
Remember that -- what we're fighting today is an ideology. We're not only fighting actual insurgency, we're fighting an ideology that not too long ago on September 11, 2001, killed 3,000 Americans. The same ideology continues to kill many people who live in democracies, but also are responsible for tens of thousands of Iraqis. And I think the American people have to keep that in mind and not cut short and run away from that.
PHILLIPS: And it was interesting, of course, the discussion here at home is when should U.S. troops leave Iraq? And Maha, you made the point that, hey, the Iraqi people are very patient and are used to waiting out for change in a positive respect. What do you mean by that, the Iraqi people are used to being patient?
M. ALATTAR: I'm sorry, patient or impatient?
PHILLIPS: Patient.
M. ALATTAR: Patient. Well, remember, they have had it very rough for the last 34 years. They had -- they went through many wars. And if you look at what they have done, every time they go through a war, they do go back and they rebuild themselves. They rebuild their bridges.
And that even when the Americans came to liberate them this time, they opened the door and they let them in, in the hope that they will be able to build their future. This is what I mean by patient.
They continue to work closely with a lot of American officials and a lot of NGOs, and they give them the benefit of the doubt. And I say that the relationship has gone much better than what's been portrayed on the media.
PHILLIPS: Ali Alattar, final thoughts?
A. ALATTAR: I think what we are doing is going in the right direction if we went to succeed and let the troops come back earlier is to really concentrate on training the Iraqi police and the armed forces, pouring tons of -- and millions of dollars into the Iraqi economy, and giving the contracts to the Iraqis instead of to the Jordanians and the Saudis and the other -- Turkish and other nationalities.
And we need to focus on the political process and try to include everybody, Sunnis, as well, and not to leave any -- and to isolate the terrorists and marginalize them and focus, definitely, on the political process, as democracy. There is no but democracy as a choice for the Iraqi political life.
The other main issue is again, I would reiterate we need to concentrate on job creation, because unemployment is a recipe for disaster. And corruption is a recipe for disaster. And I think that administration finally taking this very seriously, and we are hopeful this will make the exit strategy victorious and a very quick one.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Ali Alattar and Dr. Maha Alattar, thank you both for your time.
M. ALATTAR: Thank you.
A. ALATTAR: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Well, the Saddam Hussein trial resumed today, but without a key player, Saddam Hussein. The toppled dictator, angry about not having a change of clothes, just refused to come to court, causing an hour's long delay. The trial started anyway, though, with his empty chair.
But Hussein's absence wasn't much of a surprise. Yesterday, he threatened to boycott today's proceedings and told the judge to go to hell. Today, the judge ordered to continue witness testimony, calling to the stand witness F and witness G. Behind a curtain, witness F described the horrors that he endured while in custody at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It was four or five days standing. It was some stand, some sit down. We alternate. That -- I'm telling you some go to the -- some would -- would come back from interrogation with torture marks on their back. We don't know what's happened to them during interrogation.
We stayed all that period. A few days after that, they asked us -- they told us that we would be going to room 69. This was even worse. Scarce food. Torture all the time. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Now witness G described similar beatings and abuses by the regime. CNN's Aneesh Raman was inside the court during today's chaotic hearing but he didn't get a chance to see Saddam.
And I know that disappointed you a little bit, Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It did. I've never seen him, Kyra. All I got to see was the back of an empty chair. And you know, all morning, there was chaos, essentially, as to whether or not Saddam Hussein would show up. We, the press, come early into the courtroom. The trial kept getting delayed. We were told, because the judges were negotiating with the defense lawyers, who were negotiating with Saddam.
There was a closed session. Afterwards we were brought in. And the judge announced that Saddam Hussein would not be coming. We got -- we only found out, essentially, after the second to last defendant was brought into the courtroom. They're brought in reverse order. Saddam comes last. And at that point, I looked over to the left side of the courtroom, the door through which the defendants come, and they shut the door, the first sign Saddam was not going to show up, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Now everybody has been asking -- and I don't know if it's that gray area and we're just all confused by that. The fact that he can tell the judge to go to hell and also say that he's not going to show up for court. I mean that could never happen here in the United States.
RAMAN: Yes, and it's unclear to us, still, whether the court could have forced him to come into the trial session itself.
Now, after the court session, a spokesman for the Iraqi high tribunal said Saddam didn't boycott. The court, during that closed session, heard from Saddam Hussein himself. A closed session we weren't at, nor was any media or any television or any audio. They heard from Saddam Hussein reasons that he didn't want to appear, and they accepted that. So the court allowed him not to appear.
We don't know what those reasons were. But in any case, given what we saw yesterday and given the empty chair that we saw today in terms of perception for the moment, clearly, Saddam Hussein is carrying a lot of weight in that courtroom.
PHILLIPS: Well, now it's been put on delay. Is it because of this control or this influence that it appears Saddam has, or is it because of the elections?
RAMAN: It's because of the latter, we're told. We had known all week that at some point these sessions would end, that they were to adjourn until after December 15. The security required for this trial to take place, the amount of security that we go through, the amount of manpower needed to surround the building, to set up -- we have to go through extensive security to get on the list. But when you go in, as did I this morning, incredible security. They just don't have the resources to have the trial going on at the same time they're dealing with the December 15 election. So we're set to resume with this trial on December 21, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. And we'll be following it. Aneesh Raman. Hopefully you'll get your chance to see Saddam Hussein in court, thank you.
Well, peace activists seized in Iraq are urging the U.S. and Britain to meet their captors' demands. This new video was obtained off the Internet and aired on the BBC. It shows the four men, an American, a Brit, and two Canadians who were kidnapped two days ago. The video also includes this appeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORMAN KEMBER, IRAQ HOSTAGE: Ask Mr. Blair to take British troops out of Iraq and leave the Iraqi people to come to their own decisions on their government.
HARMEET SOODEN, IRAQ HOSTAGE: We have been treated well. We are both well. All of us are well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, the hostage takers are threatening to kill the men if their demands are not met by tomorrow.
Fuel tanker fire. We're monitoring live pictures right now. It's happening near Qualcomm Stadium in San Diego. Live pictures from our affiliate KUSI. We're going to keep you updates on this situation.
The news keeps coming. We're going to keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: We're still following this fuel tanker fire for you in San Diego, California. Live pictures coming to us from our affiliate KFMB. It's happening, or it's taking place near Qualcomm Stadium, just off the 8 Freeway if you know that area. Heather Lucas with our affiliate there, KFMB, just filed this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HEATHER LUCAS, KFMB CORRESPONDENT: Obviously, that's just to keep that front tanker cooled off. That's the only thing that they can work on right now. We have heard from Marise Lekay (ph) that these firefighters just went through a training to get through a situation like this within the last week. So if you're going to look for any skilled firefighters in this exact circumstance, these are the guys who are on the scene now.
So their biggest concern right now is keeping that front tanker cool. They've got water on it, water hoses on it to try to do that right now. But as you can see, there is so much smoke and so much heat coming off of this fire right here that they can't put that fire out, because they cannot get water on top of that gasoline. It doesn't mix. It won't go over very well.
But we did hear on scanner traffic just a little while ago, Dan and Michelle, that firefighters are going to head -- and they're getting more foam. They're bringing more foam out here, whatever means they can do that with.
So the focus right now, keeping this front tanker cooled off and letting this back tanker where you see the fire burning, let that burn itself out. It's still very hot, still a lot of flames, black smoke. So it may be awhile before that can happen.
And here's what's going to happen. Until this fire burns itself out and until these roads around here are cleaned up -- because most likely the asphalt coming in and out of the parking lot where the main entrance here at Qualcomm Stadium is going to be damaged. It's going to be a high traffic time. Of course this is the holiday season, the holiday rush, so there's a lot of traffic around the fire's area anyway, around the stadium area.
So your best advice right now is to steer clear of this area and avoid the headache.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Heather, I know you got to the scene a short time ago, but about 20, 25 minutes, we got word into the newsroom that Mayor Jerry Sanders was going to go over there to the scene. Have you seen any sign of him yet?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, we're going to continue to monitor the situation with that fuel tanker fire in San Diego. The news keeps coming, as you can imagine. So are the live pictures. More LIVE FROM straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: We've had a great run. That reaction from James West, mayor of Spokane, Washington, right after voters kicked him out of office. About 65 percent supported the recall. You may remember, it was launched after citizens learned that Mayor West had allegedly offered a city hall job to someone he met in a gay Internet chat room.
We're expecting to hear from the mayor shortly. He has until a week from Friday when the votes are certified to clean out his office. We're monitoring that live news event. We'll dip in as soon as he comes to the mic.
Now on Capitol Hill, more people are talking about what went wrong, right before and after Hurricane Katrina hit. Lawmakers are trying to figure out how to keep those missteps from happening again and what needs to be done now. Today, they're hearing from those in charge in Mississippi, from directors of emergency management, to mayors, even the governor. Haley Barbour directed part of his frustration at Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. HALEY BARBOUR (R), MISSISSIPPI: But for us to continue moving forward, Congress has to act. As the "Hattiesburg American" (ph) newspaper asked December 1, where is the money for highways? The answer to that is, it's stalled in Congress.
The result is that our state department of transportation has had to stop rebuilding roads and bridges so the reopening of our transportation network's delayed. If people can't get to work or if they can't get to your store, the private sector can't rebuild our communities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, we told you just a few minutes ago that Congressman John Murtha would be stepping up to the mic to respond to the president' speech today. He is now going to do that. And we're going to listen in.
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Put the -- put those down here some place where anybody want an copy of those, they can get them.
Stand on the chair. Stand on the chair.
PHILLIPS: Congressman John Murtha, just getting comfortable there before he gets ready to address reporters. We thought he was going to start right away so I'm just going to wait.
As you know, Congressman Murtha has been the one -- yes, the longtime Marine, congressman, former Marine -- well guess once you're a Marine, you're always a Marine. But he served more than 30 years in the military. He's come forward talking about getting troops out of Iraq, creating a lot of controversy. Now he's responding to the president's speech today. Let's listen in.
Let me start by going through a timeline and then get to what the president said.
In May 1, 2003, the president declared it was a major -- end of major operations. Then he sent John Hamre to Iraq. John Hamre was undersecretary of defense in the Clinton administration. And he found all kinds of problems. He said: You got three months, three critical months to get this thing under control if you want to control the security; 12 months at the most, but three months are crucial, the first three months.
He said small things like sewage and water and things that a lot of people don't pay attention to -- I pay attention, because in my district that's important. But a lot of people paid no attention to that report. MURTHA: I went there -- now this was July that Hamre made his report and it was a very prescient report. I mean, it was a very accurate report about the predictions of what was going to happen. And we have a copy of it here for you.
In August 16th, I went to Iraq, from August 16th to the 20th. When I came back, I said to Secretary Rumsfeld: We require immediate attention of body armor. They said they were prepared. They said they had what they needed.
Forty thousand troops didn't have body armor. They needed armored Humvees. They needed jammers and Kevlar blankets they asked for. This was all levels of people in Iraq at the time.
And then I wrote to the president on September 4th and I said, "I believe you have miscalculated the magnitude of the effort we are facing. We should energize, Iraqitize and internationalize this effort."
And we have copies of that letter in there.
Then we had the $87 billion supplemental in October of 2003.
I said on the floor that I felt the most important part of that supplemental was the construction money. A lot of people voted against it because they didn't think we should be spending money in Iraq for construction when Wolfowitz, Assistant Secretary Wolfowitz, had said: It's going to be paid for by oil money.
So a lot of people opposed it on the floor, but it passed handily.
Then I went back to Iraq and I told Ambassador Bremer, General Sanchez and General Odierno and the young general that was their public relations guy, "You guys are way too optimistic about this."
MURTHA: "You're not being honest with the American people."
They took umbrage. I got some nasty letters, as I usually do when I say something like this.
Now, you remember, I wrote to the president in September 4th of 2003. I got a letter back in April 6th, 2004. The president didn't write back. I received a response from a deputy undersecretary -- paints a totally rosy, unrealistic picture, saying 200,000 Iraqis -- now, hear what I'm saying -- 200,000 Iraqis under arms, reconstruction projects and 70 percent of Iraqis feel -- or 2,200 reconstruction projects -- 70 percent of Iraqis feel life is good.
The irony is that this was the month with the most U.S. deaths; 137 were killed. But that's what they wrote to me.
Then we have Abu Ghraib that very year.
Now I said to the secretary of defense: You have got a shortage of people in specialty, MOS specialties, that's a military specialist. We had truck drivers who couldn't back up a truck. We had security guards who weren't trained in security at all. We had National Guard security people without radios -- couldn't talk to the front, the back of the convoy, endangering their lives.
We got radios over there and we tried to address this very problem. And we had a press conference. Nancy Pelosi and I did. We said, "the military's overstretched and there's poor planning." And I said at that time I did not think we could win this militarily.
I got a lot of criticism. DeLay got up on the floor and said I was a traitor. What I said to him, publicly, I won't tell you.
Now, here's the way I measure progress. The president said we got slow progress. We want to help the government of Iraq -- this is the State Department -- provide essential services, crude oil production.
MURTHA: Now, the green line you see here is the goal -- and they got charts here that you can get copies of. This is what we actually had in oil production.
Now, you remember, Secretary Wolfowitz said, we're going to have oil -- going to pay for this. And this is all we've gotten. We didn't get up to prewar level in oil production.
Today they said we're making progress.
I can only measure progress by what I see and the things that I can actually measure, not by what they say are brigades and so forth and so on.
Now, water production: We put $2.1 billion into water production. They're short of water all over the country. And they have only spent $581 billion -- or $581 million.
Now, that's why Hamre's report was so important. You had to get this insurgency under control immediately. You had to win the hearts and minds of the people. That's the key in a guerrilla-type war.
This is electricity overview. This is the demand. The yellow line is the demand. The red line is the prewar level. And you can see that occasionally you got up to prewar level. That's the way I measure progress.
Now, there's one other area where I measure progress, and that's incidents. Incidents have increased fivefold in the period of time that -- well, a year ago. A year ago there were five times less than today.
And at Abu Ghraib -- now, again, we didn't have the right people in the right kind of specialties. We didn't have them trained. So at Abu Ghraib, we had people untrained that were taking care of prisoners. And you see the result of that.
The secretary offered to resign at that time. I would have accepted his resignation, because I think this was a Defense Department responsibility. And we had many other (inaudible).
Right now, GAO says in a report of November -- November? -- November -- we have 112,000 shortages in critical MOSs. Now, what are those shortages?
MURTHA: Number one, they're in demolition experts; number two, special forces people; number three, intelligence experts, which are absolutely essential; and fourth is translators.
Now could there be any more important specialties than that? And we're short in every one of those fields.
And you know what? We're paying someone to go into the Army. When I was in, they paid $72 a day. I volunteered in the middle of the Korean War. They are now paying $150,000 for somebody that's in special forces, in one of the specialties, in order to get them to re- enlist.
They missed their goal. And one of the biggest reasons that I'm so concerned about this -- and I talk to the military all the time -- is the future of the military. They missed their goal in recruiting by 6,600 this last time.
But you have to look at that, because there's a retention, there's a stop-loss, plus the problem that we had with the people not in the right specialties. And they enlisted people in the higher levels who were probably going to enlist anyway that they wouldn't normally have re-enlisted.
They have lowered the standards. They're accepting 20 percent last year in category four. Now, this is a highly technical service we're dealing with, And yet they lowered the standards to category four, which they said when we had the volunteer army, that would eliminate all the category four.
Now, let me tell you the major problem we have. You heard the president talk today about terrorism. Every other word was "terrorism."
Let me separate terrorism from insurgency. When I was in Iraq in 1991, president -- or King Fahd said to me -- this was an early morning meeting, like two or three o'clock in the morning, when he normally met with people during the air war.
And he said: Get your troops out of Saudi Arabia the minute this war's over. You're on sacred ground. You're destabilizing the whole region. I reported that back to the State Department and, as you know, we didn't get our troops out of there. We left our troops there.
Bin Laden said he attacked the United States because of the troops in Saudi Arabia. That's terrorism. Terrorism was in London. Terrorism was in Spain. Terrorism was, obviously, in the United States.
MURTHA: That's completely separate from what's going on in Iraq. Iraq is an insurgency. At one of the hearings early on, Secretary Rumsfeld denied there was an insurgency. He said it was a gang of something or another. But they wouldn't admit that they were having real problems over there. They kept being unrealistic, illusionary about what was going on in Iraq.
One of the major problems we have in fighting an insurgency is the military and the way they fight. And I adhere to the way they fight. They send in massive force. They use artillery, they use air and mortars. And they kill a lot of people in order to suppress fire and protect our military. I'm for that.
But it doesn't make you any friends. That's part of the problem. For instance, in Fallujah, which happened about the same time -- the first Fallujah happened about the same time as Abu Ghraib -- we put 150,000 people outside their homes in Fallujah.
If you remember in Jordan, the bomber said that the reason she became a bomber was because two of her relatives were killed in Fallujah. We lost the hearts and minds of the people.
Hamre said: You've got three months to win the hearts and minds of the people, to get this under control, to get the looting and so forth under control.
We didn't do that. There's been poor planning from the start by the Defense Department. The Defense Department fought to keep this planning under their control. State Department had entirely different reasons for wanting it. And we even voted in the House to give it to the State Department.
And finally, in conference, we had to agree to let the president make the decision. He made the decision to give it to the Defense Department.
Now, in an insurgency and nation-building -- what did President Bush say when he ran for office the first time? "We are not into nation-building. And we're not into nation-building because of the way our military has to operate." It's that simple. We've got to go in and level the place, destroy a place. And when we destroy a place, we lose the very thing that's absolutely essential to winning the insurgency.
MURTHA: Now, let's talk about terrorism versus insurgency in Iraq itself. We think that foreign fighters are about 7 percent -- might be a little bit more, a little bit less. Very small proportion of the people that are involved in the insurgency are terrorists or how I would interpret them as terrorists.
And we don't have enough troops to guard against the border. The generals in charge of that part of Anbar said, "I don't have enough troops. They've given me a mission to protect against the Syrian border. I don't have enough troops to do that."
They have never had enough troops to get it under control. They didn't have enough troops for the looters. And they haven't had enough troops ever since then to get the place under control. But the key elements, as I see it -- you heard him say that 70 percent of the Iraqis were satisfied, in that paper they sent me. Now, you'll see a document that's in this package here that told me six months before -- well, in the victory document he says we have 212,000 people trained now, Iraqi security people. Last year, we had 96,000.
Yet, they wrote to me six months before the last year's statement that said they had 200,000. Now, why don't I believe them when they say anything? They said we got weapons of mass destruction. They said we got an Al Qaida connection. They said we got nuclear weapons. They said we cross this red line which surrounds Baghdad and we're going to have a war with them.
Eighty percent of the people, according to a British poll reported by the Washington Times, says we want the United States out; 77 percent of the people in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt say there's a better chance of democracy if the United States is not there because we're considered occupiers; 45 percent of the people in Iraq think that it's justified to kill Americans. They even had an official communique that says it's justified to attack Americans.
So in this country, when I made my initial proposal to redeploy the troops and to make a diplomat effort and the only way I think this will work -- I don't think you can continue to draw down the way they're talking about. They're going to withdraw. There's no question they're going to withdraw. I predict a big proportion of the troops will be out by next year.
MURTHA: But the problem is they're just as vulnerable. The biggest vulnerability we have in Iraq is the convoys. Every convoy is attacked. When I was in Anbar, at Haditha, every single convoy was attacked that goes there to bring the logistics and supplies that they need. That's the most vulnerable part of our deployment.
And if you have half the troops there, you're going to still have to supply them, resupply them on the ground and they're going to be attacked.
When I said we can't win a military victory, it's because the Iraqis have turned against us. They throw a hand grenade or a rocket into American forces and the people run into the crowd and they -- nobody tells them where they are.
I am convinced, and everything that I've read, the conclusion I've reached is there will be less terrorism, there will be less danger to the United States and it'll be less insurgency once we're out.
I think the Iraqis themselves will turn against this very small group of Al Qaida.
They keep saying the terrorists are going to control Iraq -- no way. Al Qaida's only 7 percent of the people in Iraq and doing this fighting. The terrorists -- there's several factions, but let's say Al Qaida is 7 percent at the very most.
Iraq will get rid of them because they'll tell the Iraqis where they are and it will be the end of the terrorist activity.
Now, my plan says redeploy to the periphery, to Kuwait, to Okinawa, and if there's a terrorist activity that affects our allies or affects the United States' national security, we can then go back in.
I'm not talking about going back in if there's civil war, because we're in a civil war right now. We're caught in between a civil war right now.
MURTHA: And with that I'll end and answer any questions you may have.
QUESTION: Congressman, when you talk about a quick reaction U.S. force, an over-the-horizon presence of Marines, under what circumstances would you send them back into Iraq? And if they're going to get back and be in combat, how is that better than the current situation?
MURTHA: I would only risk their lives if there was a danger to our national security. In other words, there was a terrorist camp which our intelligence -- which hasn't been very good -- but if our intelligence told us that they were training to attack the United States or our allies and that was important to us, only reason I'd send them back.
QUESTION: Would we continue to have intelligence assets within the country to keep track of such things?
MURTHA: Absolutely. Our presence would be the embassy and the intelligence assets in the embassy.
I think the Iraqis would be glad to tell us if there's terrorism going on inside their country once we're out of there. We're the occupiers, and that's the way we're envisioned.
Yes, ma'am?
PHILLIPS: Congressman John Murtha, as you know, one of the most vocal members of Congress coming out against the war right now, still demanding that troops leave Iraq.
As you know, if you've been watching CNN, the president had another speech today with regard to the war in Iraq, another victory speech, talking about progress in all areas of the war in Iraq. And, once again, John Murtha coming forward, being responding to that.
Just a couple points that he made talking about progress. He said the president kept talking about progress in Iraq, yet he measures progress in a much different way. As the president was laying out how things were improving in that country, John Murtha showing charts with oil production, water production, electricity overview, and saying what he is monitoring and what he sees as progress is not what the president is laying out as progress.
And then he started talking about the difference between terrorism and insurgency. He said the president kept talking about this is a war on terrorism, a global war on terrorism. And he said this is what -- what we're seeing in Iraq is an insurgency and a problem with an insurgency. And he sees it different between those two. The problem is an insurgency, not terrorism, and there are not enough troops in Iraq to fight that insurgency.
Of course, he went on to talk about discrepancies in Iraqi troops, readiness numbers. He said what the situation is now is that we are caught up in a civil war and that the troops have to get out. I'm sure we'll continue to hear more from John Murtha, in addition to other members of Congress that are supporting him and against him.
We're actually going to talk to two senators coming up in the next hour. We'll talk more about the president's speech and what Murtha had to say in response to that. Stay with us. More LIVE FROM after a break.
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PHILLIPS: Two former presidents speaking live in New Orleans right now, Bill Clinton and you can see to his left the former president George Bush. George Bush, Sr., of course. They're talking about aid to Katrina victims. We'll monitor it, bring you a little bit of what they're saying later on.
Meanwhile, it's one of most distinguished honors in flight. Each year, the Air Force and National Aeronautic Association recognizes one special mission with an award called the Mackay Trophy. The criteria include gallantry, initiative and resourcefulness, and the list of past winners include such legendary names as Chuck Yaeger, Jimmy Doolittle and Eddie Rickenbacker.
This year's trophy is shared by two helicopters crews for a dangerous mission in Iraq last year. Braving enemy fire and a sandstorm, they rescued five survivors of an Army helicopter crash.
Captain Bryan Creel and Captain Rob Wrinkle commanded the rescue helicopters. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you both.
CAPT. BRYAN CREEL, U.S. AIR FORCE: Thank you for having us.
CAPT. ROB WRINKLE, U.S. AIR FORCE: Thanks for having us.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's go back in time. Let's set the scene, the conditions that you were flying in. It was pretty hairy, wasn't it, Bryan?
CREEL: Yes, it was.
PHILLIPS: Describe it to me.
CREEL: Well, at one time, I think we could only see about 100 yards in front of us. It took two attempts to get in to get the survivors with the first time -- ended up both of us entering the sandstorm. And then we figured out another way to do it and came in -- like I said, about 100 yards of visibility and took teamwork and everybody on board every aircraft to get in there and pick them up.
PHILLIPS: And, Rob, when did you get word that this Chinook crashed, and that you guys were going to have to go in?
WRINKLE: It was late on Friday night. The word came kind of through not the usual channels. So it was really kind a different mission just all around.
PHILLIPS: What do you mean not through the usual channels?
WRINKLE: Well, we initially got a report from tower that an aircraft might be missing. So that's normally not how we receive the word. But we began to prepare at that point and ultimately had a successful mission.
PHILLIPS: All right. So there you two were. You found out that it had crashed and you had to go in. I'm assuming that someone said we believe there's still survivors, get there as fast as you can. Is that right, Bryan? I mean, was the immediacy made very clear to you, once you knew you two had to launch and go?
CREEL: No, ma'am, it was not. As a matter of fact, usually when helicopters have this type of incident, it usually doesn't work out very well. So we actually took body bags with us.
But we knew that if there was somebody out there that was still alive, our pararescue men could provide immediate life-saving capability. So we had to try. So we launched with good weather, our air bags, and then just had to continue to evaluate the weather as we got closer to this area.
PHILLIPS: Wow, so you guys actually thought you were going on a recovery mission and not a rescue mission. Is that right?
WRINKLE: I did. I took an extra pair of rescue men for that case. It wasn't until we got in the sandstorm and actually saw the visual signal that we all realized that we had somebody alive down there. And that changed our whole perspective. Then it was a mission of how do we get in the sandstorm and get this crew out.
PHILLIPS: OK, now, let's -- some interesting details. I understand the survivors there on the Chinook, they only had one radio. It was a Vietnam-era radio, an ANPRC-90 with a dead battery. I didn't even know those still existed, you guys. What's the deal with that? They should have had better equipment, yes?
CREEL: We believe they should have. That unit did upgrade and was probably in the process of upgrading at the time. They were new to theater, so it probably just had not reached them yet.
PHILLIPS: OK, so you weren't able to develop calm, so you couldn't talk. And obviously, you -- tell me about the point where you finally were hovering over the scene and did you see survivors? Were they waving to you? Did they have their lights? Did they -- obviously, smoke signals -- it was too sandy, right, to see anything? I mean, how did you know that they were there and alive, Rob? WRINKLE: Well, they provided a visual signal that they were briefed to give. We saw it a time or two trying to get in. We basically went -- what we call an inadvertent instrument meteorological (ph) conditions, so we could not see anything. So we actually had to separate, get outside of the sandstorm, come back down to a much lower level and go back in and try to find that visual signal again.
When we did that, it's very hard to look at that one light in space and still fly. So we turned it over to a crew -- it was a total crew concept on how we attempted to get in there. They basically walked us in to the light from the back end of the -- our guys in the back of the helicopter as we tried to fly all the instruments.
PHILLIPS: Absolutely incredible. And then you finally touched down. You were able -- were you able to just with your hands grab them and bring them into the helicopter and get out of there? And I understand you came under fire as well.
CREEL: Right. We sent our pararescuemen out to pick them up. They authenticated them, made sure that they were who they were supposed to be, although from that point we knew that's who they were. But, yes, we took enemy fire coming back into our airbase. I believe a total of six man pad missiles, man portable systems, trying to get back into the base.
PHILLIPS: Well, and I know you guys came under enemy fire. It's unbelievable what you went through. You got back safely. You brought those five survivors back. The reason why I've got to cut you short is for one of your former bosses. I've got to go to former President Bush, gentlemen.
I know you'll understand. You won't argue with me. I'd love to keep talking about this story. But I commend you both. You're getting the Mackay Trophy, a huge honor in the Air Force. Brian, Rob, gentlemen, thanks so much.
Now, we want to take you live to New Orleans where former President Bush is talking about that aid to Katrina victims. As you know, he and former President Bill Clinton have been raising money for those victims. Let's listen in.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... Madagascar, incidentally. A child has sent in their tooth fairy money, rich countries -- that's you -- and not so rich countries, America's corporate giants and mom and pop store -- it's been a wonderful outpouring of affection for the people in these devastated areas.
And when it came to overseas donations, I was particularly touched by the fact that several of the countries that were devastated -- and President Clinton saw this firsthand, again, when he was out there just a week or so ago -- devastated by the tsunami at the beginning of the year, asked how they could help, how they could help repay Americans for their generosity. And this included not only the governments, but children who attend school sitting on the ground in the dirt. And they all wanted to help. President Clinton and I are touched by their generosity, as we are by your suffering, the things you've been through. You're not in this alone.
I might be the only one here old enough to remember this. Looking around, I see a couple of other old guys up here, but nevertheless -- but it was 64 years ago today, that America was shocked by the attack on Pearl Harbor, an attack that left the country in a state of shock and our Navy badly wounded.
But America proved then what we've proved time and again since then. We're strong. We are resourceful. We are determined. And working together, we're going to prove that again on the Gulf coast. You're going to prove it again, right here on the Gulf coast.
Let me just say a quick word about Don Powell (ph). I thoroughly agree with what President Clinton said about him. Before Don was tapped by the president to head up hurricane recovery for the federal government, he helped us get this fund, the Bush-Clinton Fund, working with Alexis Herman, our great former secretary of labor, helped us to get our fund up and running.
And it's the closest I've ever come in five years to being irritated at the president the United States for taking Don away from the Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund. And yet, I knew he was the perfect man for the job, the job he's undertaking.
He's tough, fair, stubborn, smart, and above all, a great heart, compassionate. I want to assure every single resident of the Gulf coast that you could not ask for a better man to have in your corner.
PHILLIPS: Live from the University of New Orleans, you're listening to former President Bush and Clinton addressing the importance of getting higher education institutions up and running as quickly as possible. They're announcing major fund grants, grants that will target education, faith-based needs and also governor's funds, Governor Blanco, the needs that she has expressed, all this money, millions and millions of dollars raised.
And they've now decided where exactly the chunks of money will go. The former president even saying he was so amazed by all the people that were so generous and donating, even children donating their tooth fairy money. A little touching moment there by the former president as he's talking also with former President Bill Clinton about those grants.
Well, General Motors is reshuffling its top management as it faces a huge financial crisis. Kathleen Hays live from the New York Stock Exchange with that story -- Kathleen.
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