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Suicide Bomber Kills 30 in Bus in Baghdad; Interview With Congressman Rush Holt; Air Marshal Shoots, Kills Threatening Passenger; Tookie Williams' Lawyers Ask for Clemency

Aired December 08, 2005 - 14:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A cross-country bus filled with weekend travelers at a major Baghdad depot the latest scene of tragedy in the fight for Iraq. Thirty people dead, more than two dozen wounded in a daylight attack by a determined suicide bomber.
CNN's Aneesh Raman joining me live with details on that.

Aneesh, you look at the violence that's happening today, and you talk about the security around Saddam Hussein's trial. And now talking about security around the elections that are coming up. Are there enough boots on the ground to do that?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's why, Kyra, they've postponed now the elections -- sorry, the Saddam Hussein trial until after the election, really to try and transfer some of those security forces to help with election security.

But as you mentioned, today a deadly attack. And officials warn there could be more to come.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN (voice over): A week to go until Iraq's general elections and attacks in the capital are on the rise. Thursday, a deadly suicide bombing in southern Baghdad on a passenger bus headed to the Shia city of Nasiriya. At least 30 killed, 20 others wounded. The bus, now charred debris; the dead, those heading home for the weekend.

It comes just two days after dual suicide bombers detonated at an Iraqi police academy in eastern Baghdad, killing 40. And despite what the U.S. military says has been a drop by almost half in attacks from October to November, they are now on high alert.

MAJ. GEN. RICK LYNCH, U.S. ARMY: Zarqawi is still out there. We've got a week to the election. He's feeling the pressure. He's supposed to derail the democratic process and discredit the Iraqi government. And he's going to mount these operations.

Remember, his weapon of choice is a suicide bomb. So it's still out there.

RAMAN: Also in the past two weeks, at least seven Westerners have been taken hostage. On Wednesday, new video emerged of American Tom Fox and British national Norman Kember, shown in orange jumpsuits. Both kidnapped, along with two other Canadian Christian aid workers. Their captors, a previously unknown group called Swords of Justice, say they will execute the men Saturday if U.S. and British troops do not start withdrawing from Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN: All of this, Kyra, of course, with just one week to go until Iraqis go to the polls -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Definitely the biggest election within the three we've seen so far. Let's talk about what kind of impact this could make and how it compares to the others, Aneesh.

RAMAN: This is easily the most consequential election we have seen in terms of the three, as you mentioned, this year. This is -- this is the election that will set forth the character of Iraq, a permanent four-year government.

Will this be a secular country, a theocratic country? Will this be a moderate or conservative country? Will Iran be an ally, a friend, or just a neighbor?

All of these huge questions will be answered by whoever becomes prime minister. So the most consequential elections we've seen thus far -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Aneesh Raman, live from Baghdad.

Thank you so much.

And you've heard it said that the war on terror and the fight for Iraq are unconventional conflicts against opponents who don't wear uniforms and don't fight ordinary battles. But it may be even harder than that to sort out friend from foe.

As recently as yesterday, police in Kirkuk reported gunmen in police uniforms storming a hospital, killing three real guards and whisking away one of their wounded fighters. Enemy infiltration or the appearance of it could present a clear and present danger to U.S. hopes of turning over Iraqi security to Iraqi troops and police.

And U.S. Congressman Rush Holt, Democrat of New Jersey, is alarmed. He joins me now live from Capitol Hill.

Congressman, good to see you.

REP. RUSH HOLT (D), NEW JERSEY: Good to be with you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You know, we mentioned just that one situation in Kirkuk, but if you look back at what we have covered, CNN, a number of attacks just in the past year. Something that you've even received from the Congressional Research Service when you requested these type of infiltration incidents.

January 10: Deputy chief of police and son killed. Attackers new the movements.

January 10: Fake police car explodes in courtyard of police station.

April 5: A high-ranking ISF official kidnapped. Attackers had inside information.

And May 6: Insurgent drives a car bomb into a bus carrying Iraqi police to work. The attacker apparently knew the movement of the bus, when the officers would be headed to work.

I mean, it makes sense as you gather this information that somehow these insurgents are getting inside the training that the U.S. is doing.

HOLT: Well, for more than a year there's been incident after incident that you've referred to some of them that have been reported in the papers that make it appear that the security forces are transparent. Now, I'm a member of the Intelligence Committee and won't talk about the classified briefings I've had on this subject. But just looking at the open press, whether it's the attack on a bus carrying police where someone evidently knew the route, or attack at police headquarters, or attacks on recruits, there -- there are just too many incidents that make it appear that the -- that the organization and the behavior of the security forces is transparent to the insurgents.

PHILLIPS: So what needs to be done? Is it an issue of uniforms being sold on the black market? I hear that's a hot item, according to soldiers I talked to on the ground. Is it -- does the U.S. military need to be stricter in the vetting process of who becomes a police officer, who becomes a part of the military?

HOLT: It's -- you know, it's not up to us to make it work. It's up to us to help the Iraqi forces make it work. And, you know, as you've heard from Congressman Murtha and so many others, including some generals, but usually not on the record, it is our very presence that makes it difficult for it to work.

When Jack Murtha said that the American soldiers are targets in Iraq, I'm sure some people took that to mean that he was saying we should pull out because our soldiers don't have the nerve, the courage to stand up under fire as targets. No, what he means was, by our very presence we are inflaming the insurgency and making it impossible, really, for our soldiers to do their job and making it really impossible for the Iraqi forces to stand up on their own feet, making it impossible also to do what the president was talking about yesterday, which is restoring the services, the electricity, the water, and so forth.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's talk about going -- let's talk about going after those cells, the cells of infiltrators. "The Washington Post" saying that these death squads are coming from the Badr Corps.

What can you tell me about the Badr Corps, and what can you tell me about Abdul Aziz Hakim, who's the leader of this organization? We've been looking at the Web sites and reading more about him and this organization. Do you know for sure if he and this group have been tied to these cells of infiltrators? HOLT: Well, Americans can provide some intelligence that's helpful to the Iraqi police and security forces. But ultimately, the best information comes from within that society, within that organization. And the ultimate responsibility for restoring and maintaining order in Iraq is the Iraqis.

I mean, our job is to train, as I say, to provide intelligence, where possible, and to, well, get out of the way if, in fact, our presence is making matters worse. And, you know, it's -- again, some people would say, well, are you saying that our soldiers are making matters worse? Isn't that a -- isn't that derogatory towards our soldiers? Not at all.

The soldiers are doing everything we ask of them. It's the policymakers here in Washington who have put them in an impossible situation, and in -- by extension, putting the Iraqi forces trying to get up on their own feet in an impossible situation.

PHILLIPS: Well, Congressman Rush Holt, you keep us updated on your research as you continue to monitor these incidents of infiltration and what you're doing about it. And you let us know.

HOLT: Thank you. It's very troubling.

PHILLIPS: Thank you very much, Congressman.

Well, 30,000 troops out of Iraq. A Pentagon source tells CNN that one option under consideration now in the wake of next week's elections, drawing down 50 percent larger than the one you may have heard about just a few months from now. Both, we point out, are purely hypothetical, though.

Right now there are 155,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, give or take. And mounting pressure back home to at least begin a plan to pull out.

If President Bush was hoping to pull out his poll numbers, well, his recent series of speeches, mission partially, apparently accomplished. A CBS News-"New York Times" poll shows that 40 percent of Americans now approve of Mr. Bush's job performance, up from 35 percent in October. Forty-six percent now say the war in Iraq is going very or somewhat well, up from 40 percent in October.

Still, a majority feels that the war is going very or somewhat badly.

If you haven't been hit yet, get ready. Forecasters say the storm that brought bitter cold and snow to the U.S. heartland yesterday is moving east with a vengeance.

Chad Myers, Dave Hennen are watching developments from the CNN weather center.

(WEATHER REPORT)

PHILLIPS: Well, more on the man shot by an air marshal in Miami next. Also coming up on LIVE FROM, remembering John Lennon. Can you believe this? A generation letter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, if you were watching LIVE FROM at this time yesterday, you remember the breaking news that we had about a shooting that took place at Miami International Airport. Well, as the story unfolded, we soon learned that the man that was shot was Rigoberto Alpizar, the man that we are finding out has been -- had been suffering from mental illness, bipolar, according to his family.

And an interchange happened with him -- an exchange happened with him and the air marshals as he was getting off an airplane there in Miami. He said, according to air marshals, that he had a bomb. They told him to get down. He didn't do so.

They told him to take his hand out of his bag. He wouldn't do that. And at that point he was shot and killed.

We're finally hearing from family members. And just a little while ago we heard from the brother and sister of Rigoberto's wife, Steve and Jeanne Buechner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE BUECHNER, ALPIZAR'S SISTER-IN-LAW: Rigo Alipzar was a loving, gentle and caring husband, uncle, brother, son and friend. He was born in Costa Rica and became a proud American citizen several years ago.

He will be sorely missed by all who knew him. That's all.

QUESTION: Steven, is there anything you want to say?

BUECHNER: I said no questions. Thank you.

And now we would...

QUESTION: Your relation to the family, I'm sorry, one more time.

BUECHNER: Brother and sister.

QUESTION: How is Ann doing?

BUECHNER: You guys can go now, please, and get off the property. And we really would like to leave us alone, please.

Be respectful of my request. Thank you. Have a good day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. We're sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, Rigoberto Alpizar's neighbors are also in shock. They describe him as helpful and friendly. And they were surprised to hear that he took medication for mental illness.

Reporter Louis Bolden of affiliate WKMG has more now from Maitland, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOUIS BOLDEN, REPORTER, WKMG (voice over): Less than 24 hours after 44-year-old Rigoberto Alpizar was shot and killed by a U.S. air marshal, family members are still in shock. And there is a somber mood in his Maitland neighborhood as neighbors remember him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very kind. I mean, I would let my son go over to his House, and he would cook with Ann and Rigo, and he would actually watch their house when they go on vacation and stuff. So...

BOLDEN: Wednesday evening, Alpizar's mother-in-law was escorted from the family's home by police. But before leaving, she confirmed to Local 6 that Alpizar suffered from bipolar disorder, a condition his wife says caused his behavior because he had not taken his medication, but a condition his neighbors never knew he had, including this neighbor who didn't want to be identified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, they were both very nice people. And I didn't know he had any problems. Neither did anybody else.

BOLDEN: Alpizar had been married to his wife Ann for 20 years and was returning from doing missionary work in Ecuador.

Neighbors send their prayers to his family.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, coming up straight ahead on LIVE FROM, Capitol Hill keeping its eye on the bird flu situation. Lawmakers hold hearings, make plans, and issue predictions about a potential pandemic.

And I'm going to get back to my computer and look ahead at the next scripts. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, another American automaker could be facing massive cuts. Ford's board of directors is meeting now in Michigan, working on a huge restructuring plan.

There was a report that 30,000 hourly jobs could be cut in North America over five years, and at least 10 assembly and other plants could be shut down. Last month, Ford executives announced that they would eliminate 4,000 white collar jobs.

General Motors also was planning to cut back, shutting down 12 of its plants and slashing 30,000 jobs.

Well, the company that brought us "I'd like to teach the world to sing" is changing its tune once again.

Kathleen Hays joins us from the New York Stock Exchange.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Lawyers for convicted murderer Stanley "Tookie" Williams met with California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger last hour. The co-founder of the notorious Crips street gang faces execution next week for killing a convenient store clerk and a family of three in 1979, crimes he denies committing.

Celebrities have rallied to Williams' side for his work from prison to help young people. And the stepmother of one victim, well, she's not swayed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORA OWENS, VICTIM'S STEPMOTHER: Jamie Foxx plays a very good part. Unfortunately, that's what I consider all these Hollywood celebrities that are behind Williams. They're playing a part. They have a role. They get into the character.

It's my particular cause because it was my stepson. We're talking life and death. We're not talking about a role that you can learn a script and then lay it down and go home.

You know, he had to look at a form to read. I can tell you from my heart, I can tell you from everything, when you look at the facts, everything they've got out there is so false.

When you put the light to all of those lies, then you see the truth. And that's what I want out there, is the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: But if you go to his Web site, "Tookie" Williams actually has a Web site. It's TookieWilliams.com. And he's actually got a letter of apology on there. He wrote it in 1997, and this is what it says. "So today I apologize to you all, the children of America and South Africa who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did."

CNN's Chris Lawrence is in Sacramento covering today's meeting. But, Chris, it's interesting. You go to his Web site and you read this letter and he apologizes for creating this gang and he talks about how he doesn't want kids to join this gang but he never apologizes for the murders. Why?

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tookie Williams will tell you he can't apologize for something he didn't do. He's never actually admitted to these crimes. The only thing he admits to is being part of the Crips gang. So the fact that he's never actually admitted to the murders means he can't truly show remorse for them, which is going to be a big sticking point because one of the tenets of redemption is showing that remorse. It remains to be seen whether the governor could see it, something in there to grant him that clemency without actually seeing some remorse from Mr. Williams.

PHILLIPS: Now, you live and work in Los Angeles now. You did a piece on this, of course. And you went down into just the heart of where, you know, the Crips are still very active.

Do any of those gang members, I mean, through people that you talked to, whether it was through community organizations or just hanging out on that side of town, did anyone ever say anything to you about him, or would they talk to you about him and what he says and what he's doing?

LAWRENCE: A few do, you know. But I think, in some ways, it's been all the publicity lately that has really pushed him out there again. You have got to remember, he went to prison, what, 25 years ago. A lot of the people who are in the Crips now, they weren't even born then. I mean, they weren't even born five, ten years after he had been in prison.

So, some of the recognition of who he is is more from the recent media accounts more so than any kind of lasting legacy where his stories were passed down to other people. That's not to say that he's not a well-known guy, just that it's not like he is a legendary figure that everyone in the Crips knows about.

PHILLIPS: He writes -- he wrote this book, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption." We just want to read a little part from it, Chris. "I was beginning to understand that my experiences with the dysfunctional status quo of the prison culture, as well as drug addiction, poverty, gangsterism, racism and other roadblocks had become the excuses that defined my life. But no longer would my life, my being, be dictated by blind ignorance, now would I ever again allow the excuse of circumstance to dictate who I should be."

He's gotten a lot of attention for this book. Do we know that he wrote this book? Did he have any help writing this book?

LAWRENCE: He did have some help writing the bock. Most of his books have been co-authored, but a lot of what is said are the words of Tookie Williams. If you hear him speak, you will hear him say almost the exact words that are in the book. He is a very eloquent man.

And his supporters will tell you, he's a different man than the man who was sentenced all those years ago. They will say that he is a changed man and a man that deserves redemption, that the work that he's done to get kids out of gangs, he's worth more alive than he would be dead.

Now, as for the decision, it's all going to come down to the Governor Schwarzenegger, and he's getting pressure from all sides. I mean, Catholic groups, law enforcement, the NAACP, victims' rights groups -- they're all making it very clear to the governor exactly how they would feel about his decision.

So, some people are saying, this is not only Tookie Williams' legacy on the line here, but in some ways, Governor Schwarzenegger's, as well. He has got to make the decision fairly quickly. The word we're getting from his office is, don't expect some Hollywood ending.

In other words, Mr. Williams is scheduled to be executed just after midnight on Tuesday. So the latest the governor could make the decision would be right up until midnight, you know, Monday night. But his office is saying expect a decision before then, not at the last minute.

PHILLIPS: And, Chris, we actually have a live picture right now waiting for this news conference to take place. We're supposed to hear right, Chris, from attorneys for Williams, in addition to members of the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office?

LAWRENCE: Exactly. You'll hear from Williams' defense attorneys and, as well, the prosecutor talking about somewhat, maybe some of the arguments that they presented to Governor Schwarzenegger today.

PHILLIPS: All right, Chris Lawrence, we're following it. Thanks so much.

Straight ahead, a quick way to an easy diploma. Maybe also it could be helping would-be terrorists sneak into the U.S. Drew Griffin investigates when LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, in our CNN "Security Watch," a closer look now at a growing underground industry of online universities offering degrees for a price. Despite concerns of academic fraud, it's the loophole that could be exploited by potential terrorists that has law enforcement officials alarmed. CNN's investigative reporter, Drew Griffin, tells us more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Abu Salsabil Hassan Omar's Master of Science degree in chemistry from Rochville University.

Who is Omar? The federal government says he's an explosives and chemical weapons expert for the terrorist group al Qaeda. So how did this alleged terrorist with a five million dollar bounty on his head earn a Masters in Chemistry from this American university?

Well, we earned it for him with $500 and an Internet connection. And the United States district attorney in Spokane, Washington, says there could be thousands of potential terrorists who have done what we just did.

U.S. ATTY. JIM MCDEVITT, E. DISTRICT, WASH. STATE: This is a concern to us because this is one -- not the only one, but one of many kinds of documents or kinds of things that you can use to, you know, gain credibility, build up your portfolio and maybe gain access into the country.

GRIFFIN: This past October, McDevitt and federal agents broke up what they allege could be one of the largest diploma mills in the country. They say a couple living in this home outside Spokane, Washington, ran the operation, which awarded thousands of fake degrees from legitimate sounding schools: St. Regis University, James Monroe University, and several others.

The diplomas, like the one we bought, Abu Salsabil Hassan Omar, all look real, some coming with full transcripts and certificates of accreditation from what looks like a government agency.

According to the U.S. attorney, anyone could log on and buy what appears to be an advanced degree. It sounded like just another scam, until McDevitt found out that almost half the bogus degree were being purchased overseas and mostly from so-called students in Saudi Arabia.

MCDEVITT: Terrorists, and let's say al Qaeda, who has proven themselves to be very, very patient, very, very intelligent, and are willing to go to great lengths to gain entry or to do harm to the country.

GRIFFIN: There is no evidence a bogus diploma has been used by a potential terrorist to gain access to this country, but McDevitt fears it is possible.

H-1B visas can be issued to anyone who is highly skilled and can get a job in the U.S. McDevitt is concerned a phony advanced degree could be the first step for someone in a terrorist sleeper cell.

And to prove just how troublesome the problem is, Secret Service agents did what we did, bought their own degree for a perfect terrorist candidate, although theirs was fictional.

Mohammed Syed was the applicant, no formal education but years of chemical training and chemical engineering with the Syrian army. The Secret Service even added to Syed's application that he needed a degree quickly so he could find employment and obtain an H-1B visa, allowing him to stay in the U.S.

In less than a month, the imaginary Syrian army expert was notified James Monroe University was awarding him three advanced degrees in engineering and chemistry. All for $1,277.

GRIFFIN (on camera): What is surprising is just how this potential hole in homeland security was discovered. It turns out the fake universities selling fake degrees were done in by a real physics professor from the fully-accredited University of Illinois, who was conducting more of his own investigation than a research project.

PROF. GEORGE GOLLIN, UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS: What happened was we were getting so much spam on university computers that it was actually interfering with day-to-day operations. GRIFFIN (voice-over): Professor George Gollin didn't like all those computer e-mails and pop-up adds offering his students prestigious degrees from legitimate sounding colleges, so one day he called one of those phone numbers.

GOLLIN: There was an answering machine there, not a real person, and I left my contact information so I could take the head off of some telemarketer when the person called back. But someone called me a few days later and gave me a sales pitch.

GRIFFIN: Gollin was intrigued. He has spent years gaining his advanced education the hard way and the thought of pop-up adds offering an easy way out was more than a little annoying. So he began to dig in.

What he found was a network of universities wrapped around the St. Regis name.

GOLLIN: This was actually a large business. It's a couple hundred million a year, and that this is not just a small isolated kind of thing that's going on.

GRIFFIN: He thought it was all just a big scam. Then this native New Yorker began to think about something else, 9/11.

GOLLIN: This is really scaring me because I had tended to think of diploma mills as more of a consumer protection problem and seeing that this was a much better developed organization with much more -- a much wider spread infrastructure with much broader practices, aims, alarmed me.

GRIFFIN: With Gollin's information, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the Secret Service launched a multi-state investigation. Eight people have been indicted so far. All have pleaded not guilty. And the U.S. attorney in Spokane says one ring that pumped out thousands and thousands of fake diplomas a year is shut down.

The problem is there are plenty more diploma mills on the web, willing to graduate anyone with a credit card. Remember the degree we bought from Rochville University for a wanted terrorist? We tried to find Rochville, sent e-mails to the site and got an automated response telling us, "our student counselor," would contact us soon. It never happened.

The diploma itself was mailed from the United Arab Emirates. Rochville related Web sites and e-mails have links to Karachi, Pakistan; Sarasota, Florida; a Web hosting site in Atlanta; and a Web billing address in this largely abandoned building in Dover, Delaware.

We couldn't find evidence of Rochville University at any of these locations.

(on camera): This is as close as we have come to finding Rochville University. Its domain name is registered to Mr. Joseph Lee in this apartment building outside of Boston, suite 401. The problem is, nobody we could find ever heard of the university, ever heard of Joseph Lee, and the manager says there's not even a suite by that number.

(voice-over): As far as we know, Rochville is still out there, still willing to award degrees to anyone willing to pay, even a suspected al Qaeda bomb maker named Omar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: I keep thinking if it wasn't for this professor, and you hooking up with this professor, Homeland Security would never even know that this was a loophole.

GRIFFIN: He really put it all together and was able to connect the dots. Because when laid it out for us, incredibly complicated to find out where these Web sites are coming from, the accreditation. I mean, if you're an employer, you would actually click onto a Web site and seemingly find an accredited school with all the verification. And it's all fake.

PHILLIPS: So obviously there's more investigation and no real tie that's been made to a diploma and a would-be terrorist, right?

GRIFFIN: They hope they're ahead of the game here. They hope they have found this hole before it's used. They don't know that for sure. The next part of the investigation is even a little more interesting and that's the number of Americans who have bought these degrees.

PHILLIPS: Well, probably thousands and thousands of Americans have purchased these degrees and probably received jobs, promotions, raises, right?

GRIFFIN: Exactly. And there's even evidence that some of them have gotten a degree and then gone to their employer and had their employer pay them back for tuition that they've spent, again, fictitiously.

PHILLIPS: Wouldn't you think, though, that an employer would check out your education? I mean, it's interesting. OK, they're going out there, they're clicking on, they're getting this degree. But, I would think it's also the employer's obligation to check out...

GRIFFIN: You know, month after month, year after year, we do stories about, you know, bus drivers who have a pass that nobody learned about or a teacher who has some kind a past that we haven't learned about or somebody in a high level of government who inflated their resume for some reason or another. So...

PHILLIPS: It happens at all levels.

GRIFFIN: So it happens at all levels, and it's happening in a big way, apparently, here.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll follow up. Drew Griffin, thank you so much.

Let's get to Carol Lin now with some developing news.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Kyra, I've been monitoring a news conference with Stanley Tookie Williams' attorneys, who had a very unusual clemency hearing with the governor of California, asking that they give Tookie Williams life in prison because his life is worth more to society --- he's worth more to society alive than dead.

Let's listen in to Peter Fleming.

PETER FLEMING, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR TOOKIE WILLIAMS: And that ends the press conference.

QUESTION: Well, then you don't want to talk about the time, then what were you hoping to gain by having this meeting other than the obvious? What were your best arguments that were presented to the governor, technically speaking, I guess if you can talk specifically.

FLEMING: I'm sorry, because Laurian (ph) was whispering in my ear and I didn't hear a word you said.

QUESTION: What were the best arguments you presented for it? When you say that Stan Williams is a life worth saving, how did you present it?

FLEMING: I had a lawyer. When I was getting out of law school, I was interviewing for jobs and I was asked down to interview at a prestigious New York law firm. And I was talking to one of the partners and he said that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, someone's got a Blackberry or something that's interfering with audio. So if you have a Blackberry or cell phone, we really need you to turn it off. I'm sorry, sir, we can't hear you.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a local 1190 problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry.

FLEMING: And this lawyer, this senior lawyer was talking to me, pretty young. And he said the secret of appellate argument was to make sure that the winning argument occurred to the judge without you making it. So in answer to your question -- that's my answer to the question. What was or was not persuasive is something that I cannot state or predict.

LIN: All right, to sum up what's already happened, these attorneys representing Stanley Tookie Williams had an hour-long meeting with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. They are making the argument for clemency based on the fact that Tookie Williams has renounced his former gang life, that he has written several children's books, denouncing gang life, and that he has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, or Nobel Prize. So that his life is worth more because he can continue to dissuade children from joining gangs.

Now, Governor Schwarzenegger said that he was going to make his decision and send his decision via e-mail. He must do so before Tuesday when Stanley Tookie Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection, Kyra. So a last-minute effort to save the life of the founder of the Crips gang and see whether his life really, in fact, has changed. He's never admitted to the murders of four people and that 1979 robbery in which he was convicted.

PHILLIPS: All right. Carol Lin, we'll stay on it, thank you so much.

Straight ahead, something quite different. You recognize that music, right? Do you recognize this spot? Well, let's put it this way, the music fits the live pictures. Twenty-five years, a quarter century, since we lost John Lennon. We're going to talk about it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Youthful innocence, youthful revolt and a tragically violent death. Today marks 25 years, a quarter-century since the night in New York when John Lennon died. Four gunshots fired into the former Beatle's back marked the end of a life that helped define a generation. Never before and never since has the world seen the likes of The Beatles. Those were simple times, weren't they?

But as quickly as the fab four burst onto the scene, things changed. An unpopular war raged. Joy gave way to revolt and The Beatles broke up and finally, Lennon himself was killed by a fan, a deranged young man in search of himself. Had he lived until today, John Lennon would be 65.

Joining us now, a man who remembers those times very well. Larry Kane was an enterprising young reporter, who got to know the lads from the Liverpool at the height of their fame. He's the author of "Lennon Revealed," as well as a previous book on The Beatles called "Ticket to Ride." He joins us live from New York. Great to see you, Larry.

LARRY KANE, AUTHOR: Good to see you again, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So, as you think about the day, you think about this fascination, still, 25 years later. Why?

KANE: Well, first of all, we have bookmarks in our life. For a lot of people, the Kennedy assassination in 1963 was one of them, Challenger explosion. Of course, for December 8th, 1980, a lot of people lost their innocence about the world as it is.

But I think there's a reason that we look at John in a different way. So many of our dead poets of music left us this legacy of great music, Elvis and Roy Orbison and Frank Sinatra and so many others.

But the fact was, and this remains a reality of life, that John Lennon wanted us not to just dance to his music, but to sit around, hold hands, look at each other, and debate the issues of the day. John Lennon left us a legacy of debate, of bringing issues to the forefront.

You know, we have so many celebrities in our celebrity-driven society that our legends in their own mind. Some of them are marginal. They walk down the red carpet of fame with this tremendous halo of ego surrounding them, and they give very little back, if anything. John Lennon spent most of his adult life with a lot of problems in his personal life, but he transferred that energy into creative energy for human beings, for people.

Whether it was his activism against the war or his big battle nationwide to provide bullet-proof vests for police and firefighters across the country. He was a domestic abuser who became a pacifist. He was a pacifist who became a supporter of the cops and firefighters and sliders around the world.

He was a man who imagined, just everything beautiful to the world and his songs were written in the '70s including "Imagine" were rejected by society in 1971 and he just left us this legacy of thinking. And there of course is his girlfriend May Pang, who Yoko Ono fixed him up with. And Yoko shares a lot of the credit for his success, so does May and many others. But he was a man, there in that famous East Side New York photo, who loved New York, who loved America. Fought very, very hard, Kyra, to stay in this country and he stayed here.

PHILLIPS: We're going to talk more about that legacy of thinking, all right? Stay with us, Larry. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to be right back.

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PHILLIPS: We continue our conversation now with Larry Kane, author of "Lennon Revealed" on this anniversary of his death. It's amazing, Larry, that its been this many years. But you know, you're talking -- oh, it sounds like we lost Larry. What a bummer.

OK, we were talking with Larry Kane, author of "Lennon Revealed" on this anniversary. We'll try to get him back. In the meanwhile, should we move onto a break and try and get him? All right, we're going to move onto a break and we'll try to get Larry back up on the satellite. We'll be right back.

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