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Stanley "Tookie" Williams Scheduled For Midnight Execution; Early Voting Begins in Iraqi Elections; Fat Tuesday Flap in New Orleans

Aired December 12, 2005 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Details on a new affidavit or clemency -- either could spare the life of condemned killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams. His execution is scheduled roughly 12 hours from now. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and a federal appeals court are both factors in whether Williams will see another dawn.
Kareen Wynter is live outside San Quentin prison in California.

And, Kareen, do we know who is going to be allowed to witness that execution, who will be attending?

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We don't know. That's being kept so confidential. We have been trying to pull it out of Williams' attorneys, and they say they cannot disclose that information.

I can tell you, Kyra, that up to 50 people are allowed to witness the execution. Now, that includes five friends or family members of Williams, if he so chooses, also two of his spiritual advisers, and 12 what are called reputable citizens. And this could also include perhaps some family members of his victims.

But Williams has been saying all along, Kyra, that if he is, indeed, put to death, if that final hour does approach, that he doesn't want any of his loved ones there to see him die.

PHILLIPS: Tell us the process of being moved to the death watch. I mean, where -- what exactly happens from -- from just those last few minutes and -- and the security. And kind of give us a feel.

WYNTER: It's very detailed in nature.

Williams has been spending the entire morning in what's called a visiting room, meeting with his friends, his advisers, even his attorneys. In fact, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, we are told, is meeting him -- with him right now, if he hasn't already come out.

And, so, he will remain there until 6:00 local time tonight. At that point, he will be turned over to an execution team. There's a special security team that has been coordinated that will watch his every move, even when he eats his last meal.

PHILLIPS: Does he think he still has a chance?

WYNTER: We were surprised, Kyra, what we herd from the public information officer here at San Quentin not too long ago, when he was briefing the media, just giving us an update on the situation here, that, even at this very crucial hour, Williams still believes he has a chance and thinks that there will be some intervention.

We're not sure if it's, perhaps, on the part of the governor, maybe the U.S. circuit court considering a petition. But he believes that there will be some intervention to spare his life.

PHILLIPS: Do you have any idea of who has come to see him, Kareen, family members or friends or any of these celebrities that have been standing up for him?

WYNTER: His closest adviser, the woman who co-authored the books that he wrote, who spearheaded this whole push to basically give him a second chance here, she came to the prison barber, back now early this morning, as mentioned, the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

But it has been under wraps. We have been speaking to his defense team, Williams' defense team, all morning long, trying to just extract any income, what's going on behind the scenes, who is there. And they will just say that their legal team is here, and that Williams has been receiving many visitors.

PHILLIPS: Kareen Wynter, outside San Quentin prison there in California -- thanks, Kareen.

Early voting has started in Iraq's big election. With the vote set for Thursday, hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners are casting the first ballots for a full-fledged national assembly. It's not the first election in postwar Iraq, but, clearly, the most important.

And if the hard campaign is any indication, Iraqis may be getting this thing -- getting it down.

CNN's Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the campaign ads, to the posters blanketing the streets, it is a political battle as vicious as it is slick, with an electorate aware of the stakes.

ISMAIL ZAYER, EDITOR, "AL SABAH": This is not like before. They have to go to vote because those guys will stand on their neck for next four years.

RAMAN: Twice before, Iraqis went to the polls this year. In January, it was largely symbolic, holding up ink-stained fingers, defying insurgent threats. But the actual vote was for a transitional government that, from the start, was lame-duck in power for mere months -- in October, a referendum on an incomplete constitution, a document set to go forward in another vote next year.

But, this time, the very definition of the new Iraq will be decided. With 275 seats up for grabs in the first permanent national assembly and no one party set to get an outright win, the next prime minister will come down to who forms the largest coalition. Will it be Iyad Allawi, keen to see a secular Iraq? To form a viable coalition and, in turn, get the top spot, he needs to win around 60 seats and gain Sunni and Kurdish support.

Or it will be the current Shia alliance, set to get the lion's share of seats? They would make Iraq more theocratic, make Iran more of a friend than simply a neighbor. And, then, there is the Sunni minority, who make up the backbone of Iraq's insurgency, but who are also entering the political fray for the first time.

ZAYER: If Sunnis come and prove that they're coming, prove that it works, it means there will be very little people will continue shooting and killing.

RAMAN: There is a lot riding on this election, the potential for reducing the number of foreign troops, the chance to solidify a stable democracy, and the responsibility to make the everyday lives of Iraqis more livable.

(on camera): In Iraqi politics, anything can happen. And with intense horse-trading likely to take place after the elections, the only thing that's certain is that it will take weeks to find out who will be running this country.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Challenges, setbacks and false starts, President Bush's take on Iraq's transformation from tyranny to democracy in a year that he describes as a turning point for Iraq and the whole Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is important to keep this history in mind, as we look at the progress of freedom and democracy in Iraq.

No nation in history has made the transition to a free society without facing challenges, setbacks and false starts. The past two- and-a-half-years have been a period of difficult struggle in Iraq. Yet, they have also been a time of great hope and achievement for the Iraqi people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Agreeing with the challenges and setbacks part are, among many other Democratic senators, Jack Reed and Carl Levin live right now.

Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: More forcefully stated, they must amend their constitution in order to be unified.

Our military leaders have said that there is no political unity that's going to be achieved in Iraq -- which is so essential to defeat the insurgents. There's no military way -- let me restate this. There's no military way to defeat the insurgents in Iraq unless there is political unity. That's what our military leaders have said.

General Casey has said that the constitution which was previously adopted is not a national compact and, again, the president today acknowledged that the constitution is not a unifying document.

Now there's a provision in the constitution which says that the Iraqis will have four months after the assembly is organized in which to propose amendments to the constitution and to consider changes in the constitution.

But instead of telling the Iraqis that they must, within that four-month period, achieve changes in the constitution to put their political house in order.

Instead of telling the Iraqis that they themselves, by their own timetable, have given themselves four months in which to propose the changes to bring in the Sunni Arab community so that they can unify against the insurgents, the president sent a very weak message on the critical point, a point which has been so missing until now and which should have been made today during this political statement on the part of the president.

This is what the president said today on this subject. He said that Iraqi leaders will have to review and -- here's where he pulled the punch -- possibly amend the constitution.

PHILLIPS: Democratic Senator Carl Levin -- also by his side, Senator Harry Reid, just responding to the president's speech today, the president's third speech on the war and his strategy for victory.

We will continue to monitor it and bring you more, as he continues.

Meanwhile, a heartbreaking scene in Port Harcourt, Nigeria, as relatives and friends descend on the scene of a weekend airplane crash. Of 107 people killed in that Saturday crash, at least 58 were students from a Jesuit school in Abuja. The children, ages 10 to 18, were headed home for the Christmas holidays.

In addition to the emotional devastation, there is tremendous anger. This is the third fatal airline accident in Nigeria in the past two months. The cause of this crash remains unclear. But bad weather was reported in Port Harcourt at the time of that accident. CNN's Jeff Koinange is in Port Harcourt. We are going to check in with him a little later in our show.

Well, it started as a wedding celebration, but turned into a fiery tragedy. At least 40 people were killed when flames swept through a bus in Eastern Pakistan yesterday -- the cause, a firecracker that set the fuel tank ablaze. People on the street had been setting off fireworks to celebrate a wedding. The bus was carrying family and friends of the bride and groom.

Temperatures plunging, snow piling up, we are talking about Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. And that means even more misery for the people that are affected by the massive earthquake that rocked that region just two months ago. The quake killed more than 73,000 people across Pakistan and left more than three million people homeless.

Meanwhile, a team of top American engineers and urban planners has arrived in the region. They will advise the Pakistanis on how to rebuild properly to prevent another massive loss of life in a future quake.

The family says it just wants respect for a fallen Marine. They were stunned when they found out just how that military -- how the military sent their son's body home from war. We are going to have details on that straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's go straight to the newsroom and Tony Harris.

Tony, we have been talking about "Tookie" Williams and, of course, his execution, hours away now.

TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

PHILLIPS: What do you know?

HARRIS: That's right, as you mentioned, just hours away right now.

And it doesn't look like there is going to be much relief coming from the courts. This is just in to us, as a matter of fact. A federal appeals court has rejected a stay of execution for Stanley Williams. And that's on top of the California Supreme Court rejecting an appeal based on new information.

So, the two latest appeals for some kind of action from the courts to intervene and stop this execution from going forward, both have been rejected by the courts. So, we stand by now for a decision from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's his decision now as to whether he is going to intervene in this matter and commute the sentence of Williams.

The Reverend Jesse Jackson, I can tell you, Kyra, has been meeting with "Tookie" Williams, met with him a short time ago. And we're going to get an opportunity, we believe, to talk to him in the next couple of minutes. So, we will find out his state of mind and all of those related questions, how he's doing in the hours before his scheduled execution -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. We're following it.

Tony, thanks. HARRIS: Sure.

PHILLIPS: Well, when fallen American soldiers are returned to U.S. soil, their bodies arrive in flag-draped coffins at a military base in Delaware.

But what happens then? How is the body delivered to grieving family members? You may be surprised to find out.

We have this report from San Diego from Salvador Rivera of CNN affiliate KGTV.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SALVADOR RIVERA, KGTV REPORTER (voice-over): This is the way dead heroes are supposed to come home, their coffins draped with the American flag, greeted by a color guard.

But, in reality, they're arriving as freight on commercial airliners, stuffed in the belly of a plane with suitcases and other cargo, no color guard, just baggage handlers.

JOHN HOLLEY, FATHER OF KILLED U.S. SOLDIER: What do you mean civilian aircraft? Why isn't he flying to Miramar, North Island, and having the military handle -- you know, the military should handle the military?

RIVERA: John Holley and his wife, Stacey, were stunned when they found out the body of their only child, Matthew, who died in Iraq last month, would be arriving at Lindbergh Field as freight.

J. HOLLEY: I mean, he's a war hero, for crying out loud, you know? I said, if it's a president or a general of somebody like that, this wouldn't be occurring. And when somebody dies in combat, you know, they need to give them the due respect that they deserve for the sacrifice that they made.

RIVERA: Holley and his wife, Stacey, who were in the Army, made some calls. And, with the help of U.S. senator Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.

J. HOLLEY: They let us go out there. And my son was there, with the honor guard, like he should be, with the flag draped on his casket.

STACEY HOLLEY, MOTHER OF KILLED U.S. SOLDIER: Our familiarity with the military protocol and things of that sort allowed us to kind of put our foot down. But we're not sure that other parents have that same knowledge.

RIVERA: The Holleys now want to make sure every fallen hero gets the proper welcome.

J. HOLLEY: I don't care if it's Marines or sailors who it is. Just fellow service men, you know, need to handle their brothers in arms. RIVERA: Salvador Rivera reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, we want to follow up on this.

And, for that, we bring in our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

Barbara, let's talk about this. And is the Pentagon responding to this specific case? And it -- you tend to wonder how many other times this has happened to other families.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, so far, the Pentagon today says they can't really address this particular case, what happened with this family, because they don't have all the details.

But they have talked to us about what the general overall policy is and how the remains of fallen soldiers and troops are returned to the United States.

Let's start with what people may be most familiar with. When someone is killed in battle in Iraq, in this case, their body is returned on those flag-draped coffins via military transport to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. That is where mortuary affairs are handled.

Then, once the body, the remains, are released to the family, the military works with the family, we are told, works with local mortuaries, handlers, and works with the family to make the arrangements, indeed, for the remain to be returned to the family via commercial air.

These caskets, indeed, the cold, hard reality of war, these caskets are returned every week all over the country to their families. But there are arrangements made. They're not just shipped out, we are told. They're very close arrangements made between the military and the families about how they are handled.

On the question of whether they have flags on the coffins when they travel on commercial air, we are told, generally, they do not. And the reason for that, of course, is, no one would want, we are told, to see the flag soiled or ripped as the casket is handled -- again, very difficult, but it is reality.

We can also tell you there has been evidence, anecdotes, where commercial baggage handing crews have come across, of course, these situations, and they have stopped and paid their respects on commercial airport airfields to returning troops who have fallen in Iraq.

Generally speaking, what does happen is, the mortuary meets the casket at plane-side, and then it transferred for -- for burial all over the United States. The military's view is that these formal funeral honors, which are handled according to military protocol, take place at burial, at grave side, that this is where funeral honors, if you will, are properly rendered.

But everyone agrees that this is always so very difficult for all of the families -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: We will wait on a response from the Pentagon with regard to this case.

Barbara Starr, thank you.

Straight ahead, Fat Tuesday equals fat cash. That's what some people in New Orleans believe will help revitalize the city. But not everyone from the Big Easy thinks it's an ease solution -- the politics behind the party when LIVE FROM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, they're a major time saver for thousands of busy parents. But pay attention, because there's a major expansion of a recall in some of those prepackaged lunch kits.

ConAgra Foods is expanding a voluntary recall of Armour Lunch Maker kits, to include 2.8 million pounds of food. Those kits, containing meat, cheese, and crackers may be contaminated with listeria, according to U.S. Agriculture Department.

Those kits were distributed to grocery stores across the country. All have sell-by dates that fall between January 1 and February 21 of next year. Also, they have establishment number P-9 or EST-1059. Consumers can call ConAgra Foods at 800-414-7500 for more information. Listeria can cause high fever, sever headache and nausea. It's potentially fatal, also, for very young and very old individuals.

Well, the man who brought AOL and Time Warner together is now having a change of heart.

Susan Lisovicz has the story from the New York Stock Exchange.

Susan, what's the deal?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the irony here is pretty rich, isn't it, Kyra?

AOL founder Steve Case now believes that Time Warner should be split up into several companies. Case, of course, was one of the principal architect of the ill-fated AOL-Time Warner merger and served as chairman of the combined company until 2003.

In a "The Washington Post" opinion piece published yesterday, Case wrote that Time Warner become has too big to seize new opportunities, and that the board of directors should -- quote -- "liberate" the conglomerate into four free-standing companies.

Time Warner agreed to be bought by AOL, with its inflated stock price, at the height of the Internet boom in early 2000, but the deal never won over Wall Street. And, since the merger, Time Warner has faced shareholder lawsuits and a plummeting stock price. Time Warner says, in a written statement, that, while management respects Steve's view as a shareholder, that it has concluded there is no evidence that the steps he has proposed will improve shareholder value.

One final note: Time Warner is a parent of CNN.

Turning now to the markets, stocks, well, they're staying pretty close to where they ended Friday -- Merck shares a big story today, slipping right now about 2.5 percent after the judge presiding over the latest Vioxx lawsuit declared a mistrial this morning.

Checking the numbers, the Dow industrials, which opened on the plus side, are down five -- five points. And one of the reasons why is Merck, the worst-performing Dow stock. The Nasdaq, meanwhile, is about five points higher.

And that's the latest from Wall Street.

Join me at take end of the hour for a complete wrap-up of the trading day and the closing bell.

LIVE FROM continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, it looks as though New Orleans' elections are the latest casualty of Katrina.

Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco signed an execute order today postponing the vote, supposed to take place in February, indefinitely. State officials say that there's too much damage and too few voters to even think about electing a mayor, sheriff and city council any time soon.

And just last week, a group of New Orleanians filed suit, hoping to force Blanco to hold the elections on schedule.

After all they have been through, there is no mood to party. We are talking about Hurricane Katrina evacuees stuck in hotel rooms around the U.S. since leaving New Orleans. Well, now many of them are protesting the city's plans to hold Mardi Gras celebrations in two months. One evacuee in Oklahoma says, this is not the time for fun.

Meantime, in Atlanta, other evacuees are holding a protest rally this afternoon, ahead of tonight's New Orleans Saints-Atlanta Falcons football game.

CNN's Susan Roesgen has the reaction now from New Orleans.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN GULF COAST CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To the rest of the nation it's just another Tuesday. But, in New Orleans, Mardi Gras, French for "Fat Tuesday," is the biggest day of the year. This isn't just a show for out-of-towners. It's the soul of the city, strutting its stuff, a local celebration that just happens to be fascinating for the rest of the world.

When the Mardi Gras parades roll here on St. Charles Avenue, more than a million people, tourists and locals line the streets. But hundreds of thousands of New Orleanians aren't here now, and many won't be able to come back by Mardi Gras. They're stuck in other cities and they're angry.

RAY NAGIN, MAYOR, NEW ORLEANS: Time out. Time out, everybody.

ROESGEN: At a recent town meeting for evacuees in Atlanta, New Orleans' Mayor, Ray Nagin, got blasted for the slow pace of the city's recovery.

This weekend, some evacuees came back to New Orleans to demand that the city help them get home and forget about Mardi Gras for now.

CLARA RITA BATHOLEMY, EVACUEE: We don't need to party. I'm homeless right now. I have an apartment in San Francisco. I'm sleeping on the floor. I'm hungry at times because it's very expensive in San Francisco. So, if Mardi Gras ain't going to put food on my table, give me a house full of furniture, then they can have it. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need it.

ROESGEN: The group had its own parade. A protest march on city hall.

MTANGULIZI SANYAKA, PROTEST ORGANIZER, NEW ORLEANS: I think that neighborhoods should do what they traditionally do to honor and respect their cultures. But as far as inviting a lot of outside guests to come into New Orleans to a big commercial holiday, I think that should not happen.

ROESGEN: In a good year, Mardi Gras pumps more than a billion dollars into the local economy. And it's one of the few big events not blown away by Katrina. The Superdome is out of commission. The Sugar Bowl is skipping town for Atlanta. And countless conventions have been canceled.

In a city that depends on tourism to stay alive, leaders of the hotel and convention business say Mardi Gras must go on.

STEVE PERRY, NEW ORLEANS CVB: We have to be responsible for paving the way for the return of our brothers and sisters who are not able to move back into their jobs, who do not have a place to stay. Because it's up to us to rebuild the economic base of this city.

ROESGEN: But it's not just the money. Charles Bendzans is a float painter who says people can't rebuild their houses 24 hours a day. They need a break to enjoy something beautiful.

CHARLES BENDZANS, FLOAT PAINTER: The art we do is the best in the world of it's type. It doesn't go in a museum; it goes on the street. It's for the people. And I think the people want it. Watch. Watch when Mardi Gras comes. Will people be out at the parades? I bet you they will be.

ROESGEN: Like Christmas, Mardi Gras is a day on the calendar that can't be stopped. But the city must decide how much it wants to celebrate that day, and the whole world will be watching.

Susan Roesgen, CNN, New Orleans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: We're going to talk a little bit more about this debate and this no mood to party in New Orleans in just a second. But first, we want to take you to Tony Harris in the newsroom. We've got work on "Tookie" Williams. Clemency or no?

HARRIS: And Kyra, this is it, right now, just off a priority wires, Governor Schwarzenegger, I'll read it to you, has denied clemency for Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams, who is scheduled to die Tuesday.

We're talking about midnight, Pacific time. Once again, right off the wires, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has denied clemency for Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams, scheduled to die at just a minute past midnight, Pacific time.

The Reverend Jesse Jackson is with us. He joins us from San Quentin. And the Reverend Jackson -- Jesse, good to see you, good to have an opportunity to talk to you, as this breaking news just comes over the wire.

Let me get your reaction to this decision. I'll read it to you once again. I understand you're just getting all mic'd (ph) up and everything. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has denied clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. What's your reaction?

JESSE JACKSON, REVEREND: I feel pain by the governor's decision to choose revenge over redemption and to use "Tookie" Williams as a trophy in this flawed system. I was in South Africa about a month ago, meeting with President Nelson Mandela. And there was a huge picture on the wall of Mr. Mandela and Governor Schwarzenegger. He was congratulating Mr. Mandela because, after 27 years in jail, Mr. Mandela chose redemption over revenge. He didn't seek to revenge his -- having been arrested the way he was.

And somehow, some way, it seems that now Mr. Schwarzenegger did not learn that lesson from Mr. Mandela.

HARRIS: Jesse, if I could...

JACKSON: ... the hopes of many will be...

HARRIS: ... no, go ahead.

JACKSON: The hopes of many will be dashed by this decision. But I did talk with "Tookie", for about 25 minutes. We did have prayer. He said he felt good. He had a sense of inner peace. He had been in the valleys and channels of death before. He did not fear evil. Did not fear hurt. That bullets that whizzed past his head before.

Somehow, some way, he was going hold on to his faith. He thought that through doubt and all would be denying his faith in God. I told him at that time that I would hope to see him in the morning.

HARRIS: Jesse, can you still hear me? Jesse, well, he can't hear me.

JACKSON: I can hear you.

HARRIS: You can hear me?

JACKSON: I can hear -- I was distracted. I was distracted.

HARRIS: OK, you're with me now? OK, great. Let me just ask you to clarify just a couple of the comments from just a moment ago. You're suggesting that the Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has chosen revenge in that he is using "Tookie" as a trophy. Can you just sort of elaborate on those comments for me?

JACKSON: Well, the point is, when -- man been in jail for 25 years, he is no threat to society. He has served a very redemptive value with his reach out, challenging the gang mentality, the gang culture.

He's reached out to youth. He has earned the clemency, based upon such a meaningful contribution. So to kill him is a way of making politicians look tough. It does not make it right. And it does not make any of us safer, not make any of us more secure.

HARRIS: Do you have concerns now about unrest in the city?

JACKSON: Well I hope that that will not be unrest. As a matter of fact, when "Tookie" and I discussed it, he says that if there were unrest, it would undermine his legacy. That it was -- the unrest in the streets that drove him into a lifestyle that he was regretful of and that he regretted so much.

And therefore, he began to talk about it and began to write about it. In fact, if there if there were unrest based upon what has happened, the clemency being denied, if there were unrest on that basis, it would invalidate the power of his teaching. So he would urge those who feel the pain of this hour to, in fact, use a nonviolent discipline and show dignity in this, that his legacy of nonviolence, his legacy of ending gang warfare might stop. His legacy might prevail.

HARRIS: And Jesse I know that in your conversations that he was hopeful for a different outcome. But was he prepared for this outcome?

JACKSON: I can't hear you.

HARRIS: Was he prepared for this outcome, this possible outcome? Jesse, can you hear me? No? Can't? All right, let's leave it there, the Reverend Jesse Jackson for us from San Quentin Prison. Once again, the breaking news, just a moment ago, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has denied clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. And he is scheduled to die by lethal injection just a minute past midnight Pacific time. Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right Tony, thank you so much. We'll of course continue to all of -- everything involved with that story out of San Quentin. Also, we're going to continue our discussion about, should Mardi Gras go on in New Orleans? We're going to debate that, coming up right after the break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's go back to the news room.

Tony Harris standing by. Tony, you just had a chance to talk with Reverend Jesse Jackson.

HARRIS: That's right.

PHILLIPS: He just met with "Tookie" Williams. And the news is denied clemency.

HARRIS: That's right. And it came over just a couple of minutes ago, as you know, Kyra, the decision from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, seemingly the last hope for Stanley "Tookie" Williams, as the courts have rejected appeal after appeal for a stay in the execution.

But I wanted, Kyra, just to read to you the statement. I have it in my hand right now from the governor's office, as to why clemency was denied.

The governor writing, clemency cases are always difficult and this one is no exception. After studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wresting with the profound consequences, I could find no justification for granting clemency. The facts do not justify overturning the jury's verdict or the decisions of the courts in this case. The statement from the governor's office.

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denying clemency for convicted murderer, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, now scheduled to die barring a last-minute stay from one of the courts, scheduled to die at a minute past midnight, and that is Pacific time.

Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right. Tony Harris, thank you so much.

Now we want to continue our discussion about to party or not to party? That's the question surrounding New Orleans right now, as the city get ready to celebrate Mardi Gras in two months.

But some hurricane evacuees say that this is not the time for fun. On the other hand, city leaders say Fat Tuesday will fatten up the coffers. Joining us now evacuee Chiquita Simms, who is leading a Mardi Gras protest right here in Atlanta. And from the Big Easy, New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas.

Great to have you both.

OLIVER THOMAS: Oh, thank you very much. Chiquita is one of my friends and one of my favorite people in the world.

PHILLIPS: I already understand you guys are very good friends. I don't know how I'm going to get you guys to debate.

THOMAS: Absolutely.

CHIQUITA SIMMS, KATRINA EVACUEE: I love you. I love you.

THOMAS: I love you, too, baby. That's not a problem.

PHILLIPS: Well, I'm glad that we set up the fact that you guys love each other. Now let's get down to business. Because you two disagree on one thing and that is, Chiquita, you say no Mardi Gras, why?

SIMMS: No Mardi Gras, Kyra. Because right now it's not time. The city is 50 percent--we're still without lights. Fifty percent of the city doesn't have lights. We don't have basic services. The schools are not open. There's no food there. You have to have shots to be in New Orleans.

You know, the last time that our evacuees were in New Orleans they were left down there four or five days in the Superdome and in the convention center. You know, that's where we have our Mardi Gras balls.

So you bring the service industry back to work this party in a place where there's no rental. There's price gauging on rental apartments. There's no place to house them. You have them come back work this party, and then have them leave back out the city until we get the city together?

I mean, we haven't Essence Festival, which is a big money maker. We haven't had the Sugar Bowl, and we are not having the elections. And Lord knows we would like to vote some of those people out.

PHILLIPS: What about Oliver Thomas? Are you going to vote for him?

SIMMS: I wish he would run for mayor.

PHILLIPS: OK. We'll get into that in a second because I have heard rumors that, Oliver, you will be running for mayor. We'll move into that in a second.

But do you agree with Chiquita?

THOMAS: Well, let me ask you tell you. I respect the position of Chiquita and the people who are against having Mardi Gras. But, you know, New York didn't cancel their parades after 9/11. Florida didn't cancel their festivities after all of the devastation that hit them.

You know, what's the one thing we do in New Orleans after there's a funeral or a tragedy? We have a second line. We have a parade. We have a repass where we party.

And, you know, I don't want to live in a three-sided house. New Orleans we need our business. We need our residents. We need our social services. And we need the tourism industry, which is the other side of that house that represents this city.

I respect the other side. But, you know, all of those pieces make up the whole. And the only way for our city to come back is those seamstresses, those people involved in float making, those Mardi Gras crews, beads, coconuts and all of those things that people are relying upon when you talk about rebuilding the economy and getting the jobs back and helping them return back home.

First of all, if you don't have any money, if you can't make any money, you definitely can't come back home. So there are thousands of jobs that are dependent upon Mardi Gras.

Look, I have this debate with people in my own family. Why should we party? It's really not about us. You know, and then the last thing I can say is that maybe Mardi Gras is the right time to tell the world about some of the suffering we've been through and some of the suffering we're still going through.

Maybe we can use that as a vehicle to let the world know that everything still isn't all right in New Orleans. So it's an opportunity to do that, build the economy, provide more jobs. But also give the world our message about our suffering here.

PHILLIPS: Chiquita, let me just throw out up the numbers. You know, Mardi Gras impact. I mean, years past it brings in a billion dollars to the economy, $20, $25 million in tax revenue. I mean, that's direct return to the city.

And, you know, yes it's a lot of money for police and cleanup. But when you look at it, look at how much money it brings into the city. I mean, it's an easy profit.

SIMMS: You know, I'm not against Mardi Gras. I love it. I lived in an apartment on Napoleon Avenue where you could watch Mardi Gras right off my balcony. You can catch beads right off the balcony. I am not against Mardi Gras.

If you're walking into your house in the Ninth Ward and finding your grandmother's body there that's a clear indication that it's not time. And I have to correct Councilman Thomas because, yes the world stopped for 9/11. The Oscars were canceled. Nobody across the country wanted to party.

I had just opened my business that year. And it was the hardest in my life because nobody wanted to hire an events planner. So, yes, the world did stop for 9/11. You know, they took their time to get the bodies out as much as Giuliani could. He took his time to deal with Washington as appropriately as he could.

And then when the time was right he did an exclusive marking campaign across the country that said come back to New York. New Orleanians will rise again just not in two months.

And like I said, we do need it. We need the economic impact, however, there are other ways to do it. Like we have businesses that only sell certain seasonings and sauces that are made in New Orleans. When I go to the grocery store in Atlanta I would love to buy that product. So if they would get together those businesses and then start to mass market it out.

We're in 48 states across the country. We would love to support our business. We'd love to buy Zatarain's seasoning. We'd love to buy Patton hot sausage, who lost everything in the flood. We'd love to support them just not wasting the money. The city can't even afford to have this party. They need to find a two million dollar sponsor.

And Councilman Thomas knows that I have been up against the city hosting a silence to violence festival, and they have told me that I have had inadequate amount of security, and that they couldn't house it.

The police are overworked. They need a chance to get somewhere and sit down with their families and breathe after Katrina. We can't even afford to pay it. Why get a sponsor?

PHILLIPS: Oliver. No, Oliver, Chiquita brings up a good point about security. I mean, when I lived and worked there more than ten years ago, I mean, I remember the first shooting that took place. I mean, I remember the NOPD training for weeks from horses to cars to motorcycle to prepare for Mardi Gras.

THOMAS: Well, Kyra, guess what? Kyra, guess what? The police chief and all of his experts and all of the law enforcement agencies say that they are prepared.

And I remember watching the Macy's Day Parade and all the other culture parades. Nine-eleven was in September. I watched those events in New York during Thanksgiving and December in the Christmas parade. So it's absolutely true that New York went on with their parades. They went on with a lot of their major events.

Now if I was to sit down with the police chief and the major enforcement agencies, and they say that they don't feel it's safe. And they can't provide a safe adequate Mardi Gras then I would be a fool to say that I support it.

And the other thing is a lot of these other law enforcement agencies that are volunteering to help us, a lot of them are looking forward to helping us if we need that additional help during the parade. And the organization that I'm a part of, the Zulu, we voted unanimously without an extension or without a no vote at the meeting that we had to support Mardi Gras. It's not really about me. Look...

PHILLIPS: Chiquita, she's calmly shaking her head here. She's calmly shaking her head.

SIMMS: Oh, I mean, I'm talking on the phone with a Zulu king that is going to court today to stop Zulu from parading. Shame on Zulu for parading. And they ought to know why.

You know, I think about what we have facing us. If the city can afford to do Mardi Gras then why is it printed everywhere that they need to find a two million dollar sponsor to pay for it. What sponsor wants to attach their name to something knowing that the African- American community--because that's predominately what was left down at Superdome. They are the number one consumer.

PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you this. If there is a sponsor-- what it's what two million dollars, is that right? You need a two million dollar sponsor? I mean that's two million dollars into the city, right?

SIMMS: That's two millions dollars that could go into building schools. That's two millions dollars that go to relief, building houses. It's $2 million to fund a drunken party. I love Mardi Gras. I love it.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: She's got a good point there, Oliver. Go ahead, Oliver.

THOMAS: But Kyra, let's talk about basic economics. For a $2 million investment, if I can raise $25 million to help hire more police, more taxes to go to schools, more taxes to go to playgrounds, no business person, no economics major, no economics minor, would ever say for a $2 million sponsor for investment, and to have the ability to raise $25 million, that you would pass that up.

You know, the earthquake in Northern California didn't cancel the World Series. You know, I respect everybody's right not to want to have Mardi Gras. But this isn't about me. I could easily say I don't want to make that investment, I don't want to do that because my family's displaced. We have three families living together, we don't have any money, you know, we don't have the ability to rebuild our home right now. I could easily say that.

But I want to send a message to this world. Yes, we're suffering, yes, we're on our knees, but you're not going to keep us down. We're going to parade, we're going to rebuild our tourism economy, we're going to rebuild our neighborhoods, our schools. And we're going provide a safe and adequate Mardi Gras, because guess what? That's what we do. We overcome here.

Look, I have never known -- I was a Betsy survivor. I lived in shelters as a kid. We don't lay on our backs and wallow on our knees. New Orleanians survive.

SIMMS: I agree with that. That's why I'm in camouflage, darling, because we are soldiers. You know, Oliver, I just picked up my son off the floor. He's going through exams right now, and he was sleeping on the floor. OK, I had a church to bring him at. You know I'm educated, you know I'm not a service worker, you know that I'm a professional. So I don't -- it's not about Chiquita, either.

However, I'm looking at the sensitivity. You have these people at the Superdome and Convention Center, which is primarily where we're going to host our affair. My son has ridden in Pegasus Parade. It is expensive to do, it's a lot of tickets, it's a lot of tuxedos. You know what, we don't own hotels downtown, Oliver, we work in them. And if you're going to leave those people in those same two venues for four and five days and want to return them simply to work your party, it's an insult. Have us come back and elect those people out of office next February.

PHILLIPS: And I'm going have both of you come back. Chiquita Simms, Oliver Thomas...

THOMAS: I think anyone understands. But for $2 million investment, I'm not going to pass up a multimillion dollar opportunity to repair my city for people to come in.

SIMMS: Not on the backs of the people, though Oliver.

PHILLIPS: All right. The day's ticking. It's very close. I'm going to bring you both back. We'll talk about it.

News keeps coming. We're going to bring it you.

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HARRIS: And quickly now, just to update the breaking news inside, really, the last 20 minutes here to CNN. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California has denied clemency for convicted killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams, saying the facts of the case doesn't justify blocking Williams' scheduled execution. So barring a last minute stay, Williams will be executed by lethal injection at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday morning Pacific time.

Once again, the governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has denied clemency for convicted killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams. More LIVE FROM right after this.

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