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Audio Tape of Osama bin Laden Surfaces; NASA's Pluto Launch Delayed

Aired January 19, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: We're going to start LIVE FROM now and continue our ongoing coverage of this developing story, an alleged audiotape by Osama bin Laden. You've been listening to the White House briefing, with the spokesperson, Scott McClellan there, answering reporters' questions.
We want to go straight now to the vice president of the United States. Dick Cheney. He's in New York City, speaking to the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, to see if he has anything to say.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... that easy enough to sort of put it out of our minds and get on with our lives. It's a normal, I think, sort of understanding of the way the human character works.

Those of us in positions of responsibility, though, have to constantly and continually remind everybody that the threat is very real that it's still out there and they're doing everything they can to get at us. And I don't know any -- any other way to address it than to simply get after it.

Obviously, the public can have an impact, to the extent that you ask questions about it, demand action. When we get into one of these debates about the appropriateness of defensive measures we put in place, such as the controversy over the National Security Agency and our program to pick up on communications by al Qaeda types, I think it's important for groups like the Manhattan Institute or others who have an interest in public policy to engage in the debate, talk to your congressman, talk to your senator, let him know how you feel about it.

Don't leave it just some sort of remote esoteric debate for the halls of Congress. It affects the lives of all Americans. I think it's important that people be heard from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Peter Flanagan's right there, why don't we get a question from Peter? Just wait, mic is coming...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Vice President, you spent years in the House. You preside over the Senate. So you understand the workings of Congress. I would argue that this Congress has lost the trust and respect of the people, which is serious for democracy.

Do you believe your party and its leaders can do something about not just the K Street syndrome but the earmarks which have exploded, the unrecorded holds on nominees so good nominees of the president can't get a vote for two years and nobody knows who or why? Do you believe that that can be changed and that the Congress can regain the respect and the confidence of the people?

CHENEY: Well, I think you've touched on a couple of key items. The question of holds. Don Rumsfeld, for example, over at the Defense Department did a calculation the other day. And he has operated the department during the five years he's been there with an average vacancy rate of 25 percent among those senior posts that require Senate confirmation.

Can you imagine running your company, your law firm, and you start, proposition that you only get 75 percent of your total allotment of personnel. Keep in mind that there are only fewer than 50 people confirmed by the Senate to run a department that has some three million total personnel in it.

And as Peter points out, you can't fill those slots, because the holds are placed on the nominees, oftentimes without the senator even letting anybody know why he put the hold on it or even who's responsible for it. It is a problem.

Earmarks are a problem. These are provisions written into legislation, or basically added in conference that specifies how money's supposed to be spent by the executive.

When I was secretary of defense 15 years ago, the defense authorization bill was about 70 pages long. That was the total length of the bill that told us how to operate for a year. Today, the defense authorization bill is, I believe, close to 900 pages long. And that's just -- the growth in the...

PHILLIPS: Vice President Dick Cheney speaking there in New York City, to the Manhattan Institute for Policy and Research. He's taking questions from the crowd. So we're going to continue to monitor that, see if anybody asks about this audiotape, allegedly, with Osama bin Laden's voice on it. It's been our developing story for the past couple of hours now. We'll monitor that.

You can also monitor the rest of that live Q&A on CNN.com/pipeline. Also, the White House's responding to the alleged Osama bin Laden audiotape. You can also click on to rest of the White House briefing with Scott McClellan and various reporters on CNN.com/pipeline.

Meanwhile, we're going to continue to talk about our top story, and that's Osama bin Laden, professing to be alive and well, with a new and chilling threat against America. An audiotape reportedly from the world's No. 1 terrorist, aired first on Al Jazeera. Bin Laden, or someone claiming to be him, claiming al Qaeda is taking steps right now for new attacks inside the United States.

CNN can't confirm the tape is authentic or when or where it was made. A CIA assessment of the voice one way or another is expected soon. Here's an excerpt.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER (through translator): I would also like to say that the war against America and its allies will not be confined to Iraq. Iraq has become a magnet for attracting and training talented fighters. Our Mujahideen were able to overcome all security measures in European countries, and you saw their operation in major European capitals. As for similar operations taking place in America, it's only a matter of time. They're in the planning stages, and you will see them in the heart of your land as soon as the planning is complete.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Now, the voice on the tape also offers a truce in order to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan. Conditions for the truce weren't included in the excerpts aired by Al Jazeera.

Joining us now in Washington with his take on the tape, CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson.

Nic, just thinking about the weekend and this air strike on an area that intel apparently said Ayman al-Zawahiri was in that group. Now Osama bin Laden allegedly coming forward with this audiotape. What do you think of the timing and do you think there's a connection?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The timing's very interesting. And I certainly don't think we can overlook it. There are elements in the -- in the audiotape that give an indication when it was recorded. The best indication seems to be it was recorded sometime after the end of November last year.

But why should it be released now? The information, the airwaves, the media around the world have been full of how the al Qaeda leadership has been under threat, may have even been killed. And this seems to be an effort by al Qaeda to steal the headlines again.

Bin Laden launching this threat but also saying that they are winning, winning in Afghanistan. That's not a direct reference to the attacks in Pakistan, targeting his deputy last week, but the timing is very, very interesting.

It seems perhaps not that this tape was recorded specifically following those attacks, but it does seem to be that perhaps it was sitting on a shelf somewhere, and the al Qaeda leadership said, "Go, this is the time to get that tape on the air waves."

Let's face it, bin Laden hasn't been on the air since December 2004. Well over a year. Now he's putting himself right back, center frame again, takes a risk that he could be traced by intelligence officials, by releasing this tape. He does it anyway. He's trying to define al Qaeda as back in the lead. Changing the headlines of this past week, if you will, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Why an audiotape and not a videotape? ROBERTSON: Again, an audiotape is perhaps easier to smuggle out for him. It perhaps gives away less clues as to where he is, what his health is. There have been, over the years, rumors that he has kidney problems, that he has other health issues. Some intelligence officials knock those reports down.

But perhaps he doesn't want to show that he's perhaps looking unwell or perhaps that he's looking healthy or how he may have changed his identity to hide or any clue about where he's hiding. So probably trying to keep as little information that could lead to his capture, keep that to himself, if you will.

PHILLIPS: Now, the suggestion of a truce, I guess if you were to think like a CIA agent or somebody involved in military or law enforcement, if you're going forward and talking about a truce, somebody like Osama bin Laden, does it sound like -- it sounds like he's losing the battle, like he may be getting pinned in, and he's losing resources and this is a way to stall.

ROBERTSON: Well, bin Laden has offered truces before and he's ultimately carried through on the threats.

Look, if you look at the number of attacks around the world that al Qaeda is able to perpetrate, it's not a great number. They are deadly. They are terrible when they happen. But they are not a great number. Bin Laden is not in the sort of position he was in five years ago. He is not as strong and in control of al Qaeda as he was back then.

But the threat that he made back in April 2004, warning European nations that if they didn't get out of Iraq they would be struck by July that year -- well, he did attack. He did attack in London. It was a year after when he essentially said he would attack. But British troops remained allies to the United States, remained in Iraq, and London was the next big target inside Europe after that threat.

So I think any threat still has to be taken seriously, even if al Qaeda is not able to perpetrate the number of attacks that bin Laden would like to give everyone the impression that they're capable of doing, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson, thanks, Nic.

The White House has responded to that tape, as well. We have been listening to Scott McClellan answering questions from reporters. One of those reporters giving him some hard questions, our national correspondent Bob Franken.

Bob, what do you think about the response from the White House?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting. The response from Vice President Cheney also has to be fitted in there. This is a double-edged sword. At the same time, a release of a tape like this is going to raise the anxiety level in the United States. It also becomes something that the administration can use to reinforce its political positions. For instance, the vice president just said the threat is very real. It is still out there, and went on to say that this is something that has to be factored in during the political controversy over such things as the domestic surveillance that has become such a political hot potato, with the administration under attack.

Now as for Scott McClellan, while Osama bin Laden's tape can be interpreted as defiance, McClellan made it clear that the administration position, at least the public one, was one where they were characterizing bin Laden doing this out of desperation. Quoting McClellan, "Clearly, he is on the run. Clearly, he is under pressure."

And as for that -- that seeming offer of a truce, McClellan was defiant himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCLELLAN: We do not negotiate with terrorists. We put them out of business. The terrorists started this war, and the president made it clear that we will end it at a time and place of our choosing. We continue to pursue all those who seek to do harm to the American people and to bring them to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Now remember, what we've been seeing is the public response, very carefully formulated, even though it came a very short time later.

You can know, Kyra, that there's an awful lot going on behind the scenes, including frantic efforts not only to authenticate the tape but to operate on the assumption it is authenticate and to see if it offers any leads whatsoever which can answer that always damaging political question, how come Osama bin Laden is still on the loose -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Bob Franken, live from the White House. Thanks, Bob.

And like Bob said, it's not only the White House saying this, but our next guest is saying Osama bin Laden must be pinned down. A former CIA agent who has negotiated with bin Laden weighs in.

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: He's chased bin Laden. He's come face-to-face with him. And as for a truce, well, he's never cut a deal with the al Qaeda leader. Let's talk more about the new audiotape with former CIA agent Gary Berntsen. He's the author of the book "Jawbreaker," a firsthand account in his role in the hunt for bin Laden. He joins us now live from L.A.

Gary, pretty exciting day, obviously. And I'm being told we just got approved to run a little bit more of this audiotape, and it's concerning the issue of a truce. Let's go ahead and listen to it and I want you to respond.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BIN LADEN (through translator): We do not mind offering a long- term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to. We are a nation that God banned from lying and stabbing others in the back. Hence, both groups of the truce will enjoy stability and security to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq, which were destroyed by war.

There is no shame in this solution, but it will prevent hundreds of billions from going to influential people and warlords in America, those that supported Bush's electoral campaign. And from this we can understand Bush and gang's insistence on continuing the war.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Gary, you hear the word "truce." Sounds like he's getting a little nervous.

GARY BERNTSEN, AUTHOR, "JAWBREAKER": Well, in Afghanistan, in the first part of December in 2001, he sent individuals out to try to draw our Afghan colleagues into negotiations. And I, of course, sent a very strong response back to him with language that I cannot use on the air. And of course, was able to get Centcom to recommence and re- begin air strikes against him. People that fly airliners into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people do not negotiate.

PHILLIPS: And you've been known to take some pretty hard-line approaches, raised a few eyebrows, about how to deal with people like Osama bin Laden. I know you don't have any regrets about that. Do you wish you were even tougher when you had dealt with him in the past?

BERNTSEN: No, I think that, you know, my actions were consistent with President Bush's policy and with what the American people wanted. You know, we're at war. They declared war on us. They've killed American citizens, you know. We're responding and responding appropriately.

We need to continue the pressure on them. The president is doing the right thing. We've got pressure on him in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, and I believe that. Of course, he's feeling the heat right now. He would only be seeking a truce so that he can reconstitute his forces and, of course, the president's not going to give that to him.

PHILLIPS: Obviously, and a number of analysts have come forward and said Osama bin Laden is a very bright man. Our Peter Bergen, who does analyzing for us with regard to terrorism, has also sat down with Osama bin Laden, says he's a bright man. But when we see what's happening right now, since 9/11, these tapes and what is being said on these tapes, truly down in the depths of his soul, I mean this man, is he a coward? BERNTSEN: Well, you know, he sacrificed a lot of lives of other individuals so he could escape. Clearly, he's trying to buy time for himself. And many of these people who are leaders of terrorist organizations, whether you're talking about Urgelon (ph) who led the PKK, when he was captured, he gave everything up.

When Fushaka Sivenova (ph) was captured by -- you know, she was the leader of the JRA, she gave it all up. She's called for, you know, an end to her struggle.

So, you know, hopefully we'll be able to capture bin Laden. As Peter Bergen had stated, that would be better and he will be humiliated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gives it up, too.

PHILLIPS: Audiotape versus videotape, a couple of things. Nic Robertson said it's easier to get an audiotape out and about. With regard to a videotape, is it possible he looks pathetic, he doesn't want anybody to see him on videotape? As a member -- former member of the CIA, could you look at a videotape and analyze dust and rock and everything around him to possibly lead agents to him?

BERNTSEN: No, I think that would be very difficult, unless -- that wouldn't give us -- it's unlikely, they're unlikely to give us something in the back of the video. They're going to examine the video themselves. But the possibility that video would travel hand to hand on the way to delivery and could lead back to him, so he's going to be careful and he's been cautious about that.

PHILLIPS: So what do you think of this audiotape?

BERNTSEN: I think he's trying to buy time. I think he's under pressure. I think we need to continue the pressure. And I think that those measures that we've taken in the United States to defend ourselves are having an effect. If he could have attacked us already, he would have. A lot of what we are doing are working -- is working. We need to continue, and we need to finish this.

PHILLIPS: Do you think he is hiding out in Pakistan?

BERNTSEN: Yes, I believe he's along the Afghan/Pakistani border among 25 million Pashtuns (ph), who, as a code of living, won't turn in individuals who are -- who have sought refuge among them. They support him.

PHILLIPS: All right. So you also believe that he's in that area. A number of other analysts have come forward and said that, too.

We look at this attack that happened over the weekend, this U.S. military strike on an area where they believed Ayman al-Zawahiri, his deputy, was. Still really don't know, you know, who's dead, who's alive, who was captured, who was killed in that operation.

I did have an interview with the foreign minister of Pakistan, asking if they are doing everything possible to get Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and anybody else a part of al Qaeda that is committing terrorist acts. Do you believe that that is true? Do you think that Pakistan and its President Musharraf is doing everything possible to get Osama bin Laden?

BERNTSEN: Within the constraints of the dynamics of Pakistan. It's an -- it's a place with a large population. Bin Laden has a lot of support. The country has nuclear weapons. There's a lot of dangers there. I believe we are doing everything we can under the circumstances to execute this operation without destabilizing Pakistan. I think the administration understands what it needs to do and is doing the best job it can that at the moment.

PHILLIPS: You were at Tora Bora, Gary. What happened? How did Osama bin Laden get out of there?

BERNTSEN: Well, you know, we had worked with Afghans. We had them around -- you know, around the mountains, below the mountains, on one side, on the Afghan side. The backside was open. The Pakistanis did move up, did capture some. He was able to get out.

We did -- we threw a lot of air strikes at him. Unfortunately, we did not introduce ground forces. Had we done that early on in that battle, we might have been able to stop it and end it there.

PHILLIPS: Gary Berntsen, appreciate your time today.

BERNTSEN: It's been a pleasure.

PHILLIPS: Did a U.S. missile take out an al Qaeda chemical weapons expert in Pakistan? U.S. counterterrorism experts say Midhat Mursi may have been nearby when the CIA targeted a dinner gathering in a remote mountain village last Saturday.

Mursi ran a chemical and explosives training camp in Afghanistan before the fall of the Taliban. The U.S. had offered a $5 million reward for his capture.

The strike, known to have killed 18 people, including women and children, well, Pakistan says four or five foreign fighters were likely among the dead, but none of the militants' bodies has been found.

The mother of an American hostage in Iraq makes a plea for -- to her daughter's kidnappers. It's a CNN exclusive. An update on journalist Jill Carroll and her family's efforts to save her life.

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: You know the saying, if you first don't succeed -- well, NASA's about to try for the third time this week to launch its probe to Pluto. Our space guy, Miles O'Brien, can't wait until it gets off the launch pad. He's having to work some serious overtime, getting up at 3 in the morning, you know.

This is easy for you, Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Or as they would say, 0800 Zulu.

Kyra, it's -- we're hoping the third time is the charm. Take a look at those live pictures there. Doesn't it look like a beautiful day there at the cape? Those white puffy clouds there?

Well, here's the problem. Not enough patches of blue. Hate to be half empty about this, but that's the way NASA's operating right now. And as a result, these are what are called broken clouds, which means a little more cloud cover than sky, as opposed to scattered clouds. They can't launch into broken clouds. And that's why we've had this delay.

Jacqui Jeras, please tell me there's a break in the clouds so I can go home.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Well, if it isn't one thing, it's another, Jacqui. The wind is good today.

Yesterday, Kyra, it was the weather in Maryland, of all things, that was the problem. Did you hear that?

PHILLIPS: The weather in Maryland? All right.

O'BRIEN: Yes, the reason they didn't even fuel up is the control facility is in suburban Washington, at a place called the Applied Physics Laboratory. They had a power outage because of the wild weather in the northeast. And so that's why they didn't try yesterday. So you know, they don't call it rocket science for nothing, huh?

PHILLIPS: Is that the shot -- is that the shot we kept taking of an empty room and all the computer screens were fuzzy?

O'BRIEN: No, that one right there. No, that's actually Florida.

PHILLIPS: Yes, that's what I was thinking.

O'BRIEN: That's in Florida.

PHILLIPS: OK. So that hasn't -- OK.

O'BRIEN: You know, I think -- I hate -- I don't want to be too wonky with you on this. The reason it's...

PHILLIPS: Define wonky.

O'BRIEN: The reason they're fuzzy is the refresh rate is not the same on the camera and the screens.

PHILLIPS: Oh.

O'BRIEN: If you were there in person, you could see what was on the computer, so don't worry about that.

PHILLIPS: Thank you very much. You know I'm not a computer savvy person, as we shall say.

O'BRIEN: Happy to help you.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll keep following it. Thanks, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right.

PHILLIPS: Well, the studio that brought you "Toy Story" and "Finding Nemo" may soon be a Mickey Mouse operation for real. Susan Lisovicz, live from the New York Stock Exchange with more on that.

Hey, Susan.

(STOCK REPORT)

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