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FBI Investigates Bin Laden Tape; Fortier Freed From Oklahoma City Bombings Involvement; Bin Laden Tape Warns Of New Attacks On United States; Suicides On The Rise In New Orleans?

Aired January 19, 2006 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A new and chilling threat from an old nemesis.
In an audiotape airing first an Al-Jazeera, Osama bin Laden says plans are under way for new attacks against the U.S. He also offers President Bush a truce to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan. The CIA says the tape is probably legit. And the White House says the U.S. doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

Here's an excerpt of the recording.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER (through translator): I would also like to say that the war against America and its allies will not be confined to Iraq. Iraq has become a magnet for attracting and training talented fighters.

Our mujahedeen were able to overcome all security measures in European countries. And you saw their operation in major European capitals. As for similar operations taking place in America, it's only a matter of time. They're in the planning stages, and you will see them in the heart of your land as soon as the planning is complete.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: For more on the tape and the timing and U.S. reaction, we are going to bring in our CNN senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson in just a minute. We are going to talk about what this means, from the perspective of -- of the CIA, coming forward and indeed thinking -- or it is confirming, rather, this audiotape is legit.

Nic, I understand we have connection with you now.

Let me ask you, now that David Ensor was able to come forward, his sources there at the CIA saying, yes, they believe it is legit, where does this take the search, the hunt for Osama bin Laden?

All right. We're still not hearing you, Nic. I apologize.

We have been having some issues connecting with folks there in Washington. We will continue to try to get that fixed.

Nic, I'm sorry.

Meanwhile, earlier, I did speak with a former CIA agent, Gary Berntsen. He's the author of the book "Jawbreaker," a firsthand account of his role in the hunt for bin Laden.

I began asking him about bin Laden's offer of a truce.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY BERNTSEN, AUTHOR, "JAWBREAKER": In Afghanistan, in the first part of December in 2001, he sent individuals out to try to draw our Afghan colleagues into negotiations.

And I, of course, sent a very strong response back to him with language that I cannot use on the air, and, of course, was able to get CENTCOM to recommence and re-begin airstrikes against him.

People that fly airliners into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people do not negotiate.

PHILLIPS: And you've been known to take some pretty hard-line approaches, raised a few eyebrows, about how to deal with people like Osama bin Laden. I know you don't have any regrets about that. Do you wish you were even tougher when you had dealt with him in the past?

BERNTSEN: No.

I think that -- that, you know, my actions were consistent with President Bush's policy and with what the American people wanted. You know, we had -- we're at war. They declared war on us. They have killed American citizens. You know, we're responding, and responding appropriately.

We need to continue the pressure on them. The president is doing the right thing. We've got pressure on him in Pakistan, in Afghanistan. And -- and I believe that, of course, he's feeling the heat right now. He would only be seeking a truce, so that he can reconstitute his forces. And, of course, the president's not going to give that to him.

PHILLIPS: Obviously, and a number of analysts have come forward and said Osama bin Laden is a very bright man. Our Peter Bergen, who does analyzing for us with regard to terrorism, has also sat down with Osama bin Laden, says he's a bright man.

But, when we see what's happening right now, since 9/11, these tapes and what is being said on these tapes, truly, down in the depths of his soul, I mean this man, is he a coward?

BERNTSEN: Well, you know, he sacrificed a lot of lives of other individuals so he could escape. Clearly, he's trying to buy time for himself. And many of these people who are leaders of terrorist organizations, whether you're talking about Ocalan, who led the PKK, when he was captured, he gave everything up. When Fusako Shigenobu was captured by -- you know, she was the leader of the JRA, she gave it all up. She has called for, you know, an end to her struggle.

So, you know, hopefully we'll be able to capture bin Laden. As Peter Bergen had stated, that would be better and he will be humiliated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gives it up, too.

PHILLIPS: Audiotape vs. videotape, a couple of things. Nic Robertson said, well, it's easier to get an audiotape out and about. With regard to a videotape, is it possible he looks pathetic, he doesn't want anybody to see him on videotape? As a member -- former member of the CIA, could you look at a videotape and analyze dust and rock and everything around him to possibly lead agents to him?

BERNTSEN: No, I think that would be very difficult, unless -- that wouldn't give us -- it's unlikely -- they're unlikely to give us something in the back of the video. They're going to examine the video themselves.

But the possibility that video would travel hand to hand on the way to delivery and could lead back to him. So, he's going to be careful, and he's been very cautious about that.

PHILLIPS: So, what do you think of this audiotape?

BERNTSEN: I think he's trying to buy time. I think he's under pressure. I think we need to continue the pressure. And I think that those measures that we have taken in the United States to defend ourselves are having an effect. If he could have attacked us already, he would have. A lot of what we are doing are working -- is working. We need to continue, and we need to finish this.

PHILLIPS: Do you think he is hiding out in Pakistan?

BERNTSEN: Yes, I believe he's along the Afghan/Pakistani border among 25 million Pathans, who, as a code of living, won't turn in individuals who are -- who have sought refuge among them. They support him.

PHILLIPS: All right. So you also believe that he's in that area. A number of other analysts have come forward and said that, too.

We look at this attack that happened over the weekend, this U.S. military strike on an area where they believed Ayman al-Zawahiri, his deputy, was. Still really don't know, you know, who's dead, who's alive, who was captured, who was killed in that operation.

I did have an interview with the foreign minister of Pakistan, asking if they are doing everything possible to get Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and anybody else a part of al Qaeda that is committing terrorist acts. Do you believe that that is true? Do you think that Pakistan and its president, Musharraf, is doing everything possible to get Osama bin Laden?

BERNTSEN: Within the constraints of the dynamics of Pakistan.

It's an -- it's a place with a large population. Bin Laden has a lot of support. The country has nuclear weapons. There's a lot of dangers there. I believe we are doing everything we can, under the circumstances, to execute this operation without destabilizing Pakistan. I think the administration understands what it needs to do and is doing the best job it can that at the moment.

PHILLIPS: You were at Tora Bora, Gary. What happened? How did Osama bin Laden get out of there?

BERNTSEN: Well, you know, we had worked with Afghans. We had them around -- you know, around the mountains, below the mountains, on one side, on the Afghan side. The backside was open. The Pakistanis did move up, did capture some. He was able to get out.

We did -- we threw a lot of air strikes at him. Unfortunately, we did not introduce ground forces. Had we done that early on in that battle, we might have been able to stop it and end it there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Once again, that was Gary Berntsen, former CIA officer who has dealt with Osama bin Laden on a number of occasions.

Someone else who has continually been on his trail and on the beat, Nic Robertson.

Nic, I think we are connected with you now.

I was mentioning David Ensor talking to his sources. The CIA does believe this audiotape is legitimate. Where do we go from here?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Clearly, the -- where you go from here is, are there any clues in this at all that there is going to be perhaps another attack? And that's what we have heard White House spokesperson Scott McClellan say today. Is there any actual intelligence in this? Is there any information contained in here that perhaps gives away something about an al Qaeda cell, perhaps gives key information, a coded message or -- of some kind that a -- a strike should be launched in someplace?

So, that's the most immediate thing. Where does it go from here? It seems that -- that perhaps, still, the best clues to the whereabouts of bin Laden and Zawahiri remain in those tapes. And the indications are, over the last week or so, that perhaps Zawahiri released a tape. A little over -- a less than a week later, there was an airstrike aimed at him.

Perhaps those leads are beginning to pay off. But it seems that that, perhaps, is an area to concentrate, perhaps upping the amount of money that it will take to get people in that tribal region of Pakistan, Afghanistan to spill the beans on where bin Laden and Zawahiri are hiding.

PHILLIPS: Nic, we have put a lot of attention on Osama bin Laden since 9/11. But when it comes down to this war on terrorism and -- and what's happening overseas, Iraq, Afghanistan, how much control, how much leadership, does he really have right now, when it comes down to it?

ROBERTSON: Day-to-day basis, week-by-week, even month-by-month basis, it doesn't seem like a great deal of control operationally. It's really in the hands of the individual cells, the -- the groups.

It's an ideology. It's out there. As an inspiration, as a leader, tremendously important, still. He is of -- of huge sort of psychological value to al Qaeda. It definitely would dent their psyche -- their psyche for a while, certainly if bin Laden were captured or killed. And, probably, if he were captured and put on display, that would be even more damaging.

But there certainly is a -- a role that bin Laden and Zawahiri are playing. I mean, we know about this tape that bin Laden's deputy, Zawahiri, sent to their man in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, telling him, essentially, to tone down some of the brutal beheadings they were doing, giving him guidance.

So, certainly, bin Laden and Zawahiri are still putting out the message, are still trying to direct the operations, if you will.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson, thanks for your insight.

We were wondering how many messages Osama bin Laden or someone believed to be Osama bin Laden has released, been released, since September 11. And thanks to CNN terror expert Peter Bergen, we have got a tally. Here is the facts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): If it's confirmed to be him, today's recording would be the 19th message from Osama bin Laden since September 11.

Bin Laden's last audiotape was released on December 27 of 2004. His last videotape message surfaced just two weeks before that. Since that time, al Qaeda's number-two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has been busy releasing messages. al-Zawahiri has now released at least 15 messages, according to CNN calculations. That puts the total number of messages from the pair at about 34.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Unilateral actions, ultimatums and threats, now a timeline. A German intelligence source speculates, Iran is three or four years, maybe more, from building able -- from being able, rather, to build a nuclear weapon. The source says that that's a view shared by both Israel and the United States. Iran says it wants nuclear technology to generate electricity, but Western nations and Israel are highly suspicious.

A deadline is approaching in Iraq. We are going to have the latest of on the status of American journalist Jill Carroll. The news keeps coming. We will keep bringing it to you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Almost five months after Katrina, survival is a still a day-to-day effort for survivors on the shattered Gulf Coast. For some, it remains a losing battle.

On tonight's "PAULA ZAHN NOW," CNN's Drew Griffin reports on suicides among the region's lawyers and doctors. Drew joins me now from New Orleans to talk more about it.

Obviously, no doubt a -- a tremendous time for people to rebuild and -- and move forward, Drew. And we mentioned right there, we're talking about doctors and lawyers, professional people. Does it come down to money? Does it come down to losing loved ones? What have you found out?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: You know, Kyra, what we found out is, it comes down to -- to losing your entire basis for living, your town, your office, your house, in many cases, in some cases, other family members.

And although the numbers aren't huge, in the last two months, five people have killed themselves in New Orleans, three of them doctors, two of them attorneys. Some have done it, quite frankly, very violently. The Orleans Parish coroner has said he has never seen a time when this many suicides in this small of a population has taken place in -- in such a short period of time.

One of the stories we will tell tonight is probably the most shocking of all, Dr. James Kent Treadway. Pre-Hurricane Katrina, this man seemed to have everything going for himself. He -- he was a 58- year-old beloved pediatrician in this town, had been treating four generations of New Orleans citizens, his father, a pediatrician before him, his son, in training to be a pediatrician, is a resident now.

And this man, after Katrina, just apparently couldn't take it. His practice was pretty much destroyed, due to the lack of children in this city. His house was badly damaged. And, see, he saw his entire New Orleans falling apart around him -- his widow still having trouble understanding exactly what happened, but Dr. Treadway's death really set many people in this town for a loop, because he, from the outside, at least, appeared like a pillar of the community and a pillar of strength.

PHILLIPS: So, it sounds like, at least with his situation, that he was a strong person, had a great life. Are you finding that to be the same story with these other individuals that have committed suicide, or are any of these individuals showing a history or a past of attempted suicide or mental problems?

GRIFFIN: Yes. They -- they have just come out of the blue.

I mean, a lot of these people had troubles before, but they were managing them. What -- the story we are really trying to tell here, Kyra, tonight on "PAULA ZAHN" is what it's like to live in New Orleans right now. And the fact of the matter is, things are not improving, or they're improving so slightly that many people trying to come back, professional people, especially, trying to come back and get their practices started, or get their stores opened, or get their restaurants started are finding it so difficult, and their lives are in such limbo.

These were people that seemed to have it all, had their lives under control, were at the peak of their careers, in many cases. And now their city is just a wasteland of debris and garbage that they can't get picked up. And they're being told to wait while a commission forms some kind of a plan to get their neighborhood back together.

Then they're finding out maybe their neighborhood is not going to exist. So, it's an overall depression and a malaise, which many people in this city say this is not the last of it, and -- and they are really afraid that -- that an overall depression is coming upon this city, like they have never seen before.

PHILLIPS: Final question. As you worked on this story, have you found any efforts to increase the amount of volunteers offering counseling, reaching out to people, letting it be known that help is available, if, indeed, someone feels that they need it?

GRIFFIN: yes. There are counselors available.

And Dr. Treadway went and saw two of them. I mean, he knew that depression was seeping into his life. And he and his wife went to counseling. The problem is, some of the problems are so overwhelming that a lot of these people can't seem to see any kind of a clearing in the distant future. And -- and when you drive around this city, Kyra, and you come back here week after week, if there is any improvements, they are minuscule.

PHILLIPS: We look forward to your report. Drew Griffin live from New Orleans -- thanks, Drew.

He is a symbol, an icon, depending on your viewpoint, a poster child for scapegoat for the government's inability to respond to Hurricane Katrina. You will remember, in the storm's immediate aftermath, then-FEMA Director Michael Brown told Congress that New Orleans' mayor and Louisiana's governor deserve most of the blame for the inept government response.

But times have changed. In a speech Wednesday, Brown acknowledged he, too, despite that infamous compliment from President Bush, could have done a better job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN, FORMER FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY DIRECTOR: What happened in Katrina, I made two mistakes, two very -- I probably made lots of mistakes. But I want to focus on two mistakes today. The first is, I failed in media communications. And the second is, I failed as a manager to delegate appropriately to the teams around me.

And what I should have done was painted a picture for the American public of exactly how bad that disaster was and how incapable it rendered the state and local governments of responding appropriately to the disaster, which leads to Mike Brown's second mistake. And that has all to do with delegation. I should have asked for the military sooner. I should have demanded the military sooner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Brown was removed from his duties of overseeing Katrina relief efforts and left FEMA a short time later.

A school full of bright students means stiff competition for the top honor of valedictorian. So, why not take away the title to calm things down? One school is doing just that. Leveling the playing field or striving for mediocrity? See what you think ahead on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: If you have ever been annoyed by those bumper stickers about how my child is valedictorian at whatever high school, you're going to love this next story. If your child is the valedictorian at whatever high school, well, you will be outraged.

Here is Craig Patrick our affiliate WTVT is Largo, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN SOCKWELL, PARENT: She was involved in her church activities.

CRAIG PATRICK, WTVT REPORTER (voice-over): John Sockwell says his little girl was always a little different.

J. SOCKWELL: I asked her, have any what you want to be? And she said, yes, a rocket scientist. And, of course, I laughed.

Now Jessica (ph) Sockwell is off to college, studying engineering and space. Back in high school, she competed against her own friends to win class valedictorian. She made it. And now she's shooting for the stars.

SOCKWELL: If that wasn't there, now, it's, OK, I'm -- I'm just moving with the herd.

PATRICK: But Pinellas County plans to stop giving out this medal. And parents like the Sockwells are stunned.

DEBBIE SOCKWELL, PARENT: They are just letting everybody be the same. They don't want anybody to be better than anybody else. PATRICK: But school leaders say they have to stop naming valedictorians. They say the race is too heated and really too close to call.

CATHY FLEEGER, ASSISTANT SUPERINTENDENT, PINELLAS COUNTY SCHOOLS: When you are carrying a class ranking out to four decimal places, you are really splitting hairs.

PATRICK: But school leaders say the fight for this medal can also get very complicated and ugly.

FLEEGER: We have seen situations where students are -- are unwilling to share an honor. We have actually had lawsuits. The real world is cutthroat. But, in education, again, we are here encourage all students to try -- to strive for their best.

PATRICK: The Sockwells say the county is just striving for mediocrity. But school leaders say they have too many good students to single out just one or two.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, the school board is now working on replacing valedictorian medals with something that will honor a wider group of students.

Getting a master's degree from business school is not easy. It certainly isn't cheap. But new figures show it is worth the effort.

Susan Lisovicz live from the New York Stock Exchange with that story.

There is always a lot of back and forth about what kind of degrees you need for certain jobs. It's interesting to see what this new survey says.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right.

And, Kyra, what it says is that there has been a real demand -- a real rebound, I should say, in the last two years in both demand for MBAs, and, then, of course, the salary goes up. So, this new survey also shows that job applicants with masters in business administration degrees are cashing in on them.

How much can a new MBA expect to make? According to a recent survey by the Graduate Management Admissions Council, salaries and signing bonuses for newly MBAs jumped to a record $106,000 last year, up 13.5 percent just from the year before.

Average salaries alone surged to $88,600, about $3,000 above the previous record set in 2001. And demand for new MBA grads is growing. Among the best paying industries are consulting, investment banking, financial services, health care and technology.

The tech sector, the big driver behind a turnaround on Wall Street today -- shares of Advanced Micro Devices surging more than 11 percent, after the chip-maker swung to a profit in the latest quarter. Pfizer and Merrill Lynch also posting solid gains, after better-than- expected earnings reports.

Let's take a look at the Big Board -- the Dow industrials right now up 24 points, or a quarter of a percent, the NASDAQ composite jumping nearly 22 points, or 1 percent, despite the fact that oil rose by more than $1 today.

And that's the latest from Wall Street.

Stay with us. LIVE FROM will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's go back about 11 years. It was around 9:00, the morning of April 19th, 1995. Parents had just dropped off their children at daycare at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Employees were settling in for the day. Suddenly, their world was shattered, lives forever changed.

You may remember, a massive bomb blew half of that nine-story building into oblivion and with it, 168 people. More than 500 others were hurt. Two people were convicted. One has been executed. The other is serving life.

But there was another player, a man by the name of Michael Fortier. He says he knew about the bombing plot and he was ready to make a deal. He'd testify for a lighter sentence. He did that, and come tomorrow, he's scheduled to get out of prison. Relatives of victims have mixed emotions. Bud Welch lost his daughter in that bombing. So did Marsha Kimball. And we're going to talk to them both right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All afternoon we've been talking about this audiotape believed by the CIA to be the voice of Osama bin Laden. We've been playing excerpts from it. A number of things coming from that tape. One being that he is warning there will be more attacks on the U.S. Also, calling for a truce. Justice correspondent Kelli Arena working her sources. David Ensor was talking to the CIA. You've been talking to the FBI, Kelly.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra. U.S. officials say that so far, they don't see any intelligence to back up Osama bin Laden's claim that there is an attack planned underway. They say in the past several weeks there hasn't been any increase in so-called chatter, which is intercepted communications between suspected terrorists, nothing specific or credible.

But, that does not mean that they're not looking at this tape within the context of all the other intelligence that comes in. We did have a chance to speak with the FBI spokesman just a little bit ago, Kyra -- John Miller. And here's what he had to say about the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER, FBI SPOKESMAN: It comes from bin Laden himself. That always bears examination. It does contain what is close to a specific threat, although it gives no place and time. It is a threat to launch an attack on the United States on U.S. soil. We have seen that threat before. So we neither have put undue weight on it, nor discount it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now as far as operational momentum, anything changing, pretty much for the FBI it's going to be business as usual. They say that investigations continue around the United States, intelligence operations continue around the U.S. This will not change anything for them in the course of day-to-day business. It's just, as I said, one more piece, Kyra, in that ever-growing bin of intelligence.

PHILLIPS: Kelli Arena, thanks so much.

We're also talking about American Muslim leaders calling for the immediate release of Jill Carroll now. Carroll, an American freelance journalist, is being held hostage in Iraq. In an exclusive appearance on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," Mary Beth Carroll said her daughter is a friend of Iraqis and committed to telling their story despite the risks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY BETH CARROLL, MOTHER OF HOSTAGE: ... after being in Baghdad for two years, that she knew what she was doing, she knew what the dangers were, she knew what the risks were, and she chose to accept those, because what she was doing to communicate to the world the sufferings of the Iraqi people was important.

We talked about even the eventuality of her being kidnapped, and that gives me some comfort now to know some of the things that she had knew and had talked with other about people vis-a-vis kidnapping, and also I told her frankly how I felt if she was kidnapped, what I would be thinking, and supporting her and knowing that she was doing what she loved and what she thought was very important to do, and that that would give me and her family comfort at this time, and it does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Carroll is calling on her daughters captors to contact -- or connect, rather, the family to discuss her release. The captors are threatening to kill Jill unless the U.S. releases all of the Iraqi women it is holding as prisoners by early tomorrow. CNN's Michael Holmes has more on that part of the story from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: The Arabic language network Al Jazeera aired more portions of the Jill Carroll video on Thursday. It showed her sitting or kneeling in a spartan room with masked gunmen standing nearby, one of them apparently reading a statement. The demand, of course, is that U.S. forces release all female Iraqi prisoners within 72 hours.

U.S. officials confirm they hold roughly 14,000 prisoners on insurgent-related matters, but only eight of them are women. Now the Iraqi justice ministry tells us six of those women have been recommended for release, irregardless of the kidnappers' demands.

A U.S. military spokesman said that procedures regarding female Iraqi prisoners are being followed, unrelated to the kidnappers' demands.

MAJ. GEN. RICK LYNCH, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE: There is indeed a process to review additional detainees that could be released. Some of them are the female detainees. Right now there is no specific indication that we are going to release an individual female, particularly not as a result of the demand by a terrorist, an extremist or a criminal.

HOLMES: Meanwhile, more violence in the Iraqi capital. At least 15 people killed, 46 wounded, when nearly simultaneous attacks came from a car bomb and a suicide bomber in a busy commercial area here. An official with the Baghdad emergency police says that the car bomb was targeting an Iraqi police patrol. It exploded, followed almost immediately by an explosion by the suicide bomber in a crowded coffee shop. Michael Holmes, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, we will never forget the morning of April 19th, 1995. You know what happened in Oklahoma. Now the man that says he knew about this plot is being released from prison. How do family members of the victims feel about it? We're going to discuss it right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's go back about 11 years. It was around 9:00, the morning of April 19, 1995. Parents had just dropped off their children at day care at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Employees were settling in for the day and suddenly their world was shattered, lives changed forever.

What had happened was a massive bomb blew half of that nine-story building into oblivion and with it, 168 people. More than 500 others were hurt. Two people were convicted. One has been executed. The other is serving life.

But there was another player, a man by the name of Michael Fortier. He says he knew about the bombing plot and he was ready to make a deal. He'd testify for a lighter sentence. He did that, and come tomorrow, he's scheduled to get out of prison. Relatives of victims have mixed emotions about this.

Bud Welch lost his daughter in that bombing; so did Marsha Kimball. It's Nice to have both of you. And I first want to just talk about both of your children.

Bud, why don't you tell us about Julie?

BUD WELCH, DAUGHTER KILLED IN BOMBING: Well, Julie was -- she was a bright young lady. She had graduated from Bishop McGinnis (ph) High School here in Oklahoma City in 1990 and had won a foreign language scholarship to Marquette University in Milwaukee, graduated from Marquette in '94 with a degree in Spanish and minor in French and Italian. And shortly after returning home, she got a job as Spanish translator for the Social Security administration. And Julie was killed about eight months after getting that job, less than a year after graduating from college.

PHILLIPS: So where was she at the time of the bombing and when did you get the call?

WELCH: I didn't get the call that her body was recovered until Saturday, the bombing was on Wednesday morning. Of course, I knew about the bombing immediately because I live about eight miles from downtown and the bombing shook my house violently.

PHILLIPS: Wow.

WELCH: So I knew immediately that something had happened.

PHILLIPS: And then...

WELCH: Julie was on the first floor. She had worked toward the rear of the building and had left her office to walk to the front of the building to the Social Security waiting room to get her client. She had an appointment with a Mexican man that could not speak English at 9:00. And she and the two men, a friend of his, were returning to the office and got about half-way through the building when the bomb went off at 9:02. And I was told that if they'd have had another two or three seconds, that she'd have been deep enough into the building that they would have been OK, because there was no one killed in her immediate work area.

PHILLIPS: Wow.

Marsha, tell us about Frankie and where Frankie was at the time and when you got the call.

MARSHA KIMBALL, DAUGHTER KILLED IN BOMBING: Frankie was 23. She worked for the Federal Employees Credit Union. She was a wife, a mother of a 2-year-old daughter that was with me at the time of the bombing. Like Bud, I heard the explosion immediately. We were notified on the fifth day, on Sunday, that her body had been recovered.

PHILLIPS: How is her daughter doing now?

KIMBALL: She's doing excellent. She 13 years old now and doing very well. Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Wow. Is she living with you?

KIMBALL: No. She's with her father in Oklahoma City. PHILLIPS: Oh, man.

Well, let's talk now about Michael Fortier, the man that knew about this plot. He did some negotiating. He spent time in prison. Now he will be released.

Bud, how do you feel about that?

WELCH: Well, really, I'm OK with that. I think that probably he served enough time. I'm not real sure how it benefits anyone for him to remain in prison any longer. My big concern is the other victims' family members here in Oklahoma City. I know that some of the family members are still carrying a lot of hatred, if you will, which is their -- certainly their right to do.

And I'm not sure that him staying in prison any longer is going to help them in any in their healing process. I called his mother Tuesday evening and I informed her that I personally was OK with it. And it was just a brief conversation and I just wished her and her family well. The woman's been through an awful lot over the last nearly 11 years.

PHILLIPS: Wow. What did she say to you?

WELCH: She thanked me and she appreciated -- I had talked to her a couple of times before on the telephone. It had been several years since I had talked with her. And I've tried to get my healing done through I guess working -- working for what I call human rights.

I'm actually the president of Murder Victims Families for Human Rights. We're headquartered in Cambridge, Massachusetts and I've spent the last nine years traveling literally all over the world. Our main theme is we want to abolish the death penalty. We certainly believe in punishment for people who have committed crimes. And so that's the thing I've tried to work with, is other victims' family members that have gone through tragedies like I have.

PHILLIPS: Sure. There's many ways to deal with the healing process. And Marsha, I know you're also working with a lot of other national organizations. But let me ask you how you feel about Fortier being released from prison?

KIMBALL: I have a lot of concerns. I was notified by the way of the press. I didn't receive notification through the Bureau of Prisons. I didn't realize there was the 85 percent rule. I thought there would be a proceeding or a parole hearing. I didn't know there was not parole on the federal level.

Another concern I have is the condition of his release. I know he's going to be released under the Witness Protection Program and there's going to be supervision, but what does that supervision mean? How long can he not talk to the media? How long can he not have contact with his former friends? Does that go on for -- does that stop after three years or is that for the rest of his life? So I feel like the families, to have some comfort level, need more information.

PHILLIPS: Marsha, do you forgive him or are you still angry with him?

KIMBALL: I can't forgive a man that -- all had he to do was pick up the phone and stop -- from the deaths of 168 people. To me, that's unforgiveable.

PHILLIPS: Bud, how about you?

WELCH: You know, I haven't really thought a lot about Michael Fortier, to be honest with you. I did go through the process with Tim McVeigh of being able to truly believe in my heart that I forgave him about six months before his death.

And you know, what I learned from that was, it wasn't about Tim McVeigh, it was about me. And once I was able to truly believe that I forgave him, it was myself that was released. I was the one that felt better. And it's a difficult emotion to explain, and you can't explain it until you actually live through it.

PHILLIPS: Bud Welch and Marsha Kimball, I can never imagine what you both went through. But you're extremely strong parents and you're giving back and you're involved in organizations. And Julie and Frankie, no doubt, are looking down on that and appreciating it very much so.

Marsha Kimball, Bud Welch, thank you very much.

WELCH: You're welcome.

KIMBALL: You're welcome. Bye.

PHILLIPS: We're going to -- news keeps coming. We're going to keep covering it for you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Straight to the newsroom, Fredricka Whitfield working a story for us -- Fred?

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Kyra, a Slovak military air jet has crashed and it happened as it made its way from Kosovo to a Slovakian town. Apparently this military jet crashed near the Slovak border. About 48 people were on board, no reports of casualties as of yet. And of course, when we get more information on this military jet that has crashed in eastern Hungary, we'll be able to bring that to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Fred, thanks so much, working that story for us from the newsroom. We'll continue to bring you updated information as we get it. Meanwhile we got to check in with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, he's standing by now in Washington to tell us what's coming up at the top of the hour. Hey, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Kyra. We're going to continue our special coverage of Osama bin Laden's threat against America and his offer of a truce. How seriously are U.S. officials taking this threat? And what are big cities around the United States doing to protect all of us? We're covering all sides of the story, asking the questions you want answered.

Plus, American hostage -- her mother appeals to the kidnappers in a statement shown around the world. We have the exclusive. All that, lots more, Kyra, coming up right at the top of the hour.

PHILLIPS: All right, we'll be waiting. Thanks, Wolf.

Straight ahead, four creatures that have no business feeling the way they do about each other. Hey, as LIVE FROM's favorite mom says, you can't help who you fall in love with, right? Share the fantasy after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Another story Fredricka Whitfield is working for us in the newsroom -- Fred, what's going on?

WHITFIELD: Well in southwest Oklahoma, they're dealing with a significant fire in a landfill. And what makes this so particularly threatening is that this fire is spreading and it is now jeopardizing a nearby mobile-home community.

So that mobile-park community has been evacuated now. Now we don't know if there are too many similarities in this kind of fire taking place at this landfill, similar to the kind of grass fires we've been reporting on the past few weeks in Oklahoma and Texas, and in other states.

When those fires were being fueled by the high winds, as well as the dry conditions. It certainly looks very dry and very windy there right now. But no official word on exactly what has sparked this fire in this landfill and what exactly those firefighters are up against. Kyra?

PHILLIPS: All right, Fred, thanks so much.

Now to a little bit of a lighter note. Not since Felix and Oscar have we seen such a truly odd couple. This hamster was initially meant as dinner for a four-foot rat snake at a Tokyo zoo. But the snake declined to snack on the hamster. That was in October. So the two are still happily cohabitating. And they've even been caught cuddling. The snake has since developed a taste for iced mice and other frozen rodents. And by the way, the hamster's name Gohan means meal in Japanese. Go figure.

Ali Velshi -- let's see, how do we go from hamsters and snakes cuddling to Ali Velshi?

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: I had a pet fish and a dog at the same time. And a few weeks ago, did you see that story -- I think it's a rhino and a turtle in Africa? Did you see that on T.V.?

PHILLIPS: Actually, no I didn't. VELSHI: You know, I'm telling you, great story. Similar kind of idea, they are friends. The turtle -- because live to really old ages.

PHILLIPS: Oh, wait, here it is. We do -- it's a hippo and a turtle.

VELSHI: The turtle is like 175-years-old or something, I understand it. So it imparts a lot of wisdom. I so wanted to do that story on T.V. and do like a voice-over for it.

PHILLIPS: Well, here's your chance. Here's the picture. Give me a voice-over.

VELSHI: Hey, rhino, you're stepping on my foot.

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: I get -- I'm very easily entertained.

PHILLIPS: Ali Velshi -- and notice we're keeping the "Odd Couple" music going because the two of us are on the air together.

VELSHI: I know.

PHILLIPS: So it makes perfect sense.

VELSHI: How about them oil prices?

PHILLIPS: Oooh, boy, I'll tell you what. Yes, we talked about it yesterday. It's continuing.

VELSHI: Higher, a buck ten higher for a barrel of oil. If you're picking one up on your way home from work, Kyra, $66.83 for a barrel of oil. Obviously this new audio tape we heard today that sounds like it's Osama bin Laden has -- you know, that's aggravated the markets a little bit.

PHILLIPS: Has it really affected the markets?

VELSHI: Yes. I mean there are a lot of things. Oil has been going up and it's had nothing to about with Osama bin Laden. It's had to do with Nigeria and Iran. But it's one more piece of uncertainty.

PHILLIPS: Well, it's fear. Fear drives the markets.

VELSHI: Fear drives the markets.

PHILLIPS: Yes. What else -- what else is going on?

VELSHI: The fish and the dog. My little fish, it was a Koi.

PHILLIPS: I had a hamster. And I came out to the garage one day and it was dead, stiff, right there in the wheel. I don't know what I did.

VELSHI: Bad road to go down with me because there is only one thing all of my former pets have in common.

PHILLIPS: And that is?

VELSHI: They're all dead.

PHILLIPS: Kind of like plants. I just substituted plants for animals. They continue to die.

VELSHI: I'm in a Manhattan apartment. I don't have any live things that I know of or that can't be dealt with by an exterminator.

PHILLIPS: Back to business news.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

VELSHI: Now let's take it to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

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