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Bush Visits NSA for Closed-Door Talk; Pentagon Plan Boosts the Ranks of Special Forces; Execution Blocked; Ford Employees Consider Future Employment Options

Aired January 25, 2006 - 14:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Call it a hush-hush pep talk. President Bush took the controversy over to the domestic spying on its home turf, the National Security Agency in Fort Meade, Maryland. He gave a closed-door speech at the top-secret agency that's under fire for eavesdropping without warrants on U.S. citizens.
The White House says it's trying to keep tabs on terrorists, but critics say it's infringing on civil liberties.

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joins us now live from the White House.

Did he go over there just to try to reinforce those working there everything is OK?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, that certainly is part of it.

When you think about this, this really is kind of an extraordinary move by the White House. I mean, this is an agency that the government didn't even acknowledge existed for years, but the president today is actually visiting with some of the employees there to thank them for the job they do. Many of those jobs of course top secret.

Also, he will be taking a tour of the facility. And then, of course, he's got cameras in tow, so he will be talking to the traveling press.

And all of this is a part of an extraordinary effort by this administration to simply defend their domestic spying program, a program that they have made a point of emphasizing really inside (ph) calls coming in or going out of the United States that they believe at least there's some suspected terrorist on the other end of the line. But some of the pictures that you see today are really what they're hoping is out there.

The president, the head of -- his intelligence czar, the National Intelligence Agency, and of course his national security adviser and his counsel all saying, hey, we believe this is legal and we believe it's about national security, and that the president has the authority -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Why is he going now?

MALVEAUX: Well, he's going now for a number of reasons. Of course the way this plays out politically, hearings in just two weeks or so from Congress on the domestic spy program. They certainly hope that what's going to happen is they diminish any kind of negative political impact from those hearings. And they are trying to get a jumpstart on it, really to frame the debate as one of national security, not of legality -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne, you know, critics of this program have been coming forward talking about how the president is breaking the law, not going by the Constitution, and laws even going back to 1947. So a number of leaders coming forward saying, well, let's change the laws then, if need be.

What do you think the president -- or has the president or the Bush administration talked about even changing laws at this point?

MALVEAUX: Well, what they say is they actually approached Congress before and said, you know, should we amend this in some way? They are against amending it. They say that, quite frankly, it gave up too much information about the program itself to put it out there as a piece of legislation. So they rejected that idea.

One thing you should know, Kyra, is that -- how this is going to play out politically. What they are certainly hoping is they are hoping to exploit kind of this perception or misperception, if you will, the Democrats are weak on terror or national security. That is something that they hope will stick in the midterm congressional elections.

That is why they are presenting this as a national security issue as opposed to to legalities. But at the same time, they do feel like they have a legal basis for this program.

PHILLIPS: Suzanne Malveaux, live from the White House.

Thanks, Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Sure.

PHILLIPS: The U.S. military taking aim at the future pending approval from Congress. Special Operations Forces will be an even bigger part of the fighting force of the mid 21st century.

Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): To fight what the Pentagon now calls the long war against terrorism, sources say its budget will include an increase in the number of highly trained Special Operations troops such as Delta Force Commandos, Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets. If approved by Congress, the addition of thousands of elite commandos, including a new special forces branch of the U.S. Marines, will bring the number of Special Operations troops to its highest level since the Vietnam War.

Some experts say it's long overdue. MAJ. GEN. JAMES MARKS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: The time is not only now, the time should have been probably eight to 10 years ago. But without looking in the rearview mirror, the Department of Defense is making -- making the right step in the right direction to enhance and broaden the functionality and the capabilities of our Special Operations Forces.

MCINTYRE: The 15 percent boost in Special Operations Forces, who do everything from hunt high-value targets to train allied troops, would also include an immediate increase of billions of dollars to the budget of the Special Operations command, officials say.

But adding elite forces takes not just money, but years.

MARKS: You don't grow a Special Operations soldier or Marine or airman or SEAL in the Navy overnight. This is an investment of time.

MCINTYRE (on camera): The push for more Special Operations troops is a direct result of the Pentagon's every-four-year overhaul of its military strategy. Sources say the new plan to be submitted next week, along with the budget, puts more emphasis on homeland defense, counterterrorism, and dealing with weapons of mass destruction and less on fighting conventional wars such as the one that toppled Saddam Hussein.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: One of the issues brought up in the Pentagon briefing, are U.S. forces stretched too thin? Well, this is not the first time that we have heard that question, but it is worth a check. So here's the numbers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Of the 136,000 U.S. troops currently in Iraq, more than 70 percent come from the Army. There are 487,000 active duty soldiers in the United States Army; 97,000 are on duty in Iraq and 16,000 are on duty in Afghanistan. The average tour of duty lasts one year.

In the new rotation of Army troops deploying to Iraq in 2006, the Army estimates that at least two-thirds are returning for the second time. Many are returning for their third tour of duty in Iraq.

Army recruiters fell short of their goal of adding 80,000 new soldiers in fiscal year 2005. They signed up about 73,000. But the Pentagon says the Army, Army Reserve and National Guard have all met their recruiting goals for the last several months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Florida death row inmate Clarence Hill came within moments of a lethal injection last night. But instead of coming to an end, his case is now headed to the U.S. Supreme Court. Justice Anthony Kennedy issued a last minute stay in the Hill case. And now the full court has gotten involved.

CNN's Susan Candiotti has more from Miami.

Remind us about this case and he got to this point -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure will.

He was sent to death row after a murder conviction back in 1982. He was convicted of killing a Pensacola police officer by the name of Steven Taylor (ph), who was shot in the back by Clarence Hill.

Clarence Hill, therefore, had a death warrant signed for him. And, in fact, he was already on a gurney and the I.V. lines were already inserted into his arms when this stay came through last night from the U.S. Supreme Court. And again, today, as you just said, it was blocked by the entire Supreme Court after just one justice, Justice Kennedy, issued the stay last night.

Here's what's at issue. Attorneys for Clarence Hill are arguing that the chemical mixture, a three-chemical mixture that is given to Florida death row inmates, actually causes pain when it -- not only when it's injected, but that one of the chemicals they claim is not strong enough to disallow pain when the final chemical enters the body. There is a second chemical that paralyzes you, and they are saying that that doesn't allow the person on the gurney to say that he is feeling pain.

In any case, Hill wanted a hearing about this. And the Florida Supreme Court rejected that with one justice dissenting.

And the Supreme Court has now said, yes, let's study this further. And they will issue another motion. They're allowing for legal briefs at this time. And then in April, the Supreme Court will decide whether to allow oral arguments, or they could decide at that time to move forward with the execution.

We might not know anything about this, ultimately, if oral arguments are scheduled until the summertime.

PHILLIPS: We will continue to follow it.

Susan Candiotti, thanks so much.

So many questions, so few answers. That's what top members of a Senate committee say that they're facing as they look into the government's Hurricane Katrina response.

Ranking Democrat Joseph Lieberman accuses the White House of stonewalling the probe by not allowing access to papers or people. Lieberman and his colleagues are sure they have plenty of new questions. They found out that federal officials tried to warn the White House about the damage Katrina could do the day before it struck. Well, the White House says it's cooperating, but that it also has to protect the confidentiality of those staffers.

Are you among the thousands of Ford employees soon to be out of a job? Well, send your questions about finding a new job to our career counselor who will answer some of your e-mails in the next hour of LIVE FROM.

The address is livefrom@CNN.com.

Straight ahead, call it the softer side of Pope Benedict. Thoughts about love, sex and marriage in his first major communique to the Catholics.

That's straight ahead on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Lovey-dovey music, AKA, encyclical. It's the most authoritative document that a pope can issue, and today Benedict XVI released his very first one covering a range of topics woven around charitable love.

CNN's faith and values correspondent, Delia Gallagher, has been speed reading. She's full of love too.

She joins us live from New York to talk about this.

All right. A little encyclical 101. And what exactly is it? And how often does he issue this?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the first time Pope Benedict issued an encyclical, of course. An encyclical is sort of the highest writing that a pope can issue, the most important.

And John Paul II, for example, issued 14 encyclicals in his 26 years. They can do it any time that they want, so maybe one-year, two-year intervals. Or sometimes in one year you can two or three encyclicals. And they can choose any topic they want.

So what's very interesting about this is that Pope Benedict chose for his first encyclical, which is obviously a very important one, the theme of love. And what does that tell us about him and what message he wants to get across? I mean, he says in one of the first sentences that in these modern times, when the name of god is so associated with hate and with vengefulness, he wanted to reassociate the name of god with love.

PHILLIPS: All right. So let's take a look exactly -- at exactly at what he did write. I think we've got the -- we've got the quote.

GALLAGHER: Yes. One of the interesting things...

PHILLIPS: There it is. Do you see it?

GALLAGHER: Yes, I do. "Nowadays, Christianity of the past is often criticized of having been opposed to the body. And it is quite true that tendencies of this sort have always existed."

PHILLIPS: "Yet the contemporary..." GALLAGHER: "Yet the contemporary way of exalting the body is deceptive. Eros reduced to pure 'sex' has become a commodity, a mere 'thing' to be bought and sold."

And what's interesting here, Kyra, is that in addressing this theme of love, he's kind of able to bring in all sorts of themes. And one of them is human sexuality.

And he says that he knows that the church has been -- has been seen as kind of the poisoner of Eros, he says, as the one who has all these strict rules about human sexuality. And so he tries to say there are two types of love. There is Eros, which is the erotic love, and then there is what they call Agape, which is the friendship neighbor, love of neighbor and that love which is self-giving, in other words.

So he says both of those are necessary. And he goes into a very complicated, but very interesting analysis of the different types of love and how they are both reflections ultimately of the love of god.

So he's able in this umbrella of love to bring in all these different topics from terrorism to human sexuality.

PHILLIPS: OK. So, first -- all right, two questions here. First of all, the issue of human sexuality, is this -- should we read between the lines? Is he trying to say something else here? Is this a little racy for the pope to be talking about this?

I mean, what...

GALLAGHER: Well, yes. I mean, I think it's interesting. I think that people wouldn't expect that necessarily from -- from this pope.

I mean, he's been seen as such a kind of doctrinal enforcer. And people were saying, oh, it's going to be about bioethics and so on. And here he comes out with the first whole half of his encyclical very much talking about erotic love.

But the point of that is to re-emphasize marriage between a man and a woman, and marriage as the basis of society and so on. So he's re-emphasizing very traditional teachings.

There's no reading between the lines in terms of what he's really saying. He's just placing it on a more philosophical level, and I think also a level which is more open to the world, a pastoral kind of level.

PHILLIPS: Now, I would think the pope would talk about love and how important it is to love. And one of the Catholics in our group brought this up to me. Why doesn't the pope address something maybe a little more hard-hitting, like abortion, gay rights, pedophilia? Why doesn't he go there for his first big statement?

GALLAGHER: Well, that's what a lot of people were saying. They thought that it was gong to come out and be hard-hitting because he's had plenty of time as the doctrinal authority, and that's sort of the image that we have gotten used to.

So I think that part of the purpose of this choice of topics is that he is able to show now he's the pope. Now he's becoming a little bit more pastoral and opening up.

He has to give a sort of larger discourse, as it were. And I think certainly he would consider love and god's love for us and man's love for one another as underpinning all of those other issues.

So rather than concentrate on one specific issue, which we already know what he thinks about those, he kind of opens it up and gives a sort of more philosophical discourse about the whys behind that.

PHILLIPS: Faith and Values Correspondent Delia Gallagher.

And I learned something from you today. I always said Agape. But it's -- you said it's Agape?

GALLAGHER: Well, Kyra, you know, you might -- you might be right, too.

PHILLIPS: Tomato? Tomato?

GALLAGHER: Hey, it's a Greek word. So let's not worry about it.

PHILLIPS: OK. Perfect. Thanks, Delia.

Well, monumental change in the Middle East. Palestinian voters have spoken. And what they have decided will determine the future of peace with Israel.

More LIVE FROM after a break.

All right. One more thing to add. If you are among the thousands of Ford employees soon to be out of a job, we want to help you.

Send your questions to our career counselor. We are going to answer some of your e-mails in the next hour of LIVE FROM.

The address: livefrom@CNN.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: We all know sex sells, but how much would you pay for it? A group of buyers, anonymous buyers, has reportedly bought the Web site sex.com for an estimated $12 million. It's not much to look at, and we're trusting Reuters for that assessment, but the name alone is the asset.

The new owners plan to feature adult dating opportunities, sex and relationship advice, and, well, we'll just leave it at that.

Google is rolling out a search engine in China, but access to what some call an Internet gold mine comes at a price. The new site self censors in accord with Chinese law.

Type in sensitive terms such as "Taiwan independence," "democracy" or "human rights," you will mostly get official sites from the Chinese government. A media watchdog group is blasting the decision, but Google says it does something similar in Germany, France, and even the U.S. in response to laws there. Google promises to let users know when that information is deleted.

Mickey Mouse just got a new play pal, "Nemo," for a price tag of several billion dollars. Susan Lisovicz has the details of the Disney-Pixar deal live from the New York Stock Exchange.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: "Survivor" is still surviving. Fredricka Whitfield has the latest on this lone "Survivor."

WHITFIELD: Well, Kyra, were you a "Survivor" fan? The first one?

PHILLIPS: Well, I have to admit, I never watched it.

WHITFIELD: You're kidding?

PHILLIPS: No. I'm sorry.

WHITFIELD: All right. So you weren't that familiar with the character. But surely you had heard of the winner, Richard Hatch, and all of his goings-on while he was in competition. He was the guy who was running around naked, you know, and building alliances, et cetera.

Well, the latest is this "Survivor" winner, Richard Hatch, is now in trouble and in custody. He was convicted of evading taxes on his million-dollar winnings from that show as well as evading taxes on $327,000 that he earned as a co-host on a Boston radio show, and in addition to evading taxes on $28,000 that he collected in rent on property that he owned.

He now faces up to 13 years in prison and a fine of $600,000. Sentencing is now scheduled for April -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You said he was running around naked? Maybe I did miss something.

WHITFIELD: On the show? You never heard about that? Yes. That's kind of one of his claims to fame.

PHILLIPS: OK. Thanks, Fred.

WHITFIELD: You missed it.

PHILLIPS: OK. I will go back and look at the tapes.

WHITFIELD: OK. PHILLIPS: All right.

We're going to move along and talk about critical and pivotal. That's how Palestinian parliamentary elections are being viewed far beyond the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians turned out by the hundreds of thousands to choose their first new parliament in a decade. Security was extreme and seemingly effective. CNN correspondents tell us they haven't heard a single report of violence. Eleven parties were on the ballot. Fatah, the ruling party founded by the late Yasser Arafat is expected to win the most seats, but not a majority.

It is likely to be forced to share power with the militant group Hamas, an idea that greatly alarms Israel and the west. In the past, Hamas has called for Israel's destruction and it still isn't willing to negotiate with Israeli leaders. The U.S. calls it a terrorist organization.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The U.S. government is prepared to continue dealing with Palestinian Authority with Hamas members and the Parliament.

If Hamas becomes part of the executive branch, that is, holds portfolios, then the American law, the way I understand it, would preclude the United States doing business with the Palestinian Authority, so we don't know what choices will be made by the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Official results are expected sometime Friday. Talk of Hamas showing strongly in Palestinian elections got us digging into history. Here's what we found.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): Hamas was founded in December of 1987 at the beginning of an unsuccessful Palestinian uprising against Israel. The word Hamas is an acronym for a term that translates to Islamic resistance movement in English.

The chief goal of the group has always been the creation of an Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian state. To achieve that goal, Hamas has divisions dedicated to political, religious, and military activities.

The first Hamas suicide bombing is believed to have been in the Israeli city of Hadera on April 13, 1994. Five people were killed. Hamas is believed to have carried out dozens of suicide bombings since that time, and is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel and the United States.

According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the group operates on a budget of about $70 million a year. It's funded by private donors in the Middle East, and allegedly through Islamic charities in Europe and the United States.

Hamas founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, was killed by targeted Israeli airstrikes in March 2004. His successor was killed a month later. Since then, the identities of Hamas leaders have been kept secret. This is the first time Hamas has participated in Palestinian Parliamentary elections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: China's latest confirmed case of bird flu is its seventh fatality. The World Health Organization says a 29-year-old woman who fell ill January 12th was hospitalized. Five days later, died on Monday.

She had no apparent exposure to sick birds, but health officials are still investigating, and the WHO is still warning about the dangers of so-called weight markets in light of the newly diagnosed chicken seller in Indonesia. Massive interaction between live poultry and humans is thought to be a huge potential source of bird flu transmission.

Well, temperatures at minus 30, lakes frozen solid, the fish in them frozen dead -- Siberia? Try Germany and Greece. That Russian cold front we've been telling you about has moved in and taken hold in much of Europe. Here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote on life in the deep freeze.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So how cold is it? So cold that in the German zoo, ice kept the ducks from wading. So cold in Greece that fish froze to death in a lake. So cold in the country of Georgia, to put it on track for potential human catastrophe.

Already struggling in Europe's coldest weather in three decades, the country's residents have spent the last four days without heat.

After a series of explosions destroyed a power line and pipelines that delivered the natural gas Georgia needs to fuel its central heating.

Until they are repaired, these orphans and most of the country's four million citizens have to use electric heaters in the hours they have power to keep warm. Georgia's president has accused Russia of deliberately sabotaging his country's energy's supply.

PRES. MIKHAIL SAAKASVHILI, GEORGIA: And we are going back to the European Union, saying we should find a way to exclude these kind of extreme situations, in not only in this region, but everywhere else in Europe.

CHILCOTE (on camera): Russia calls the Georgian president's claims absurd. But even as it warms up to a relatively comfortable negative ten degrees Celsius here in the Russian capital, the rest of Europe is cooling to the idea that it is so heavily dependent on Russian fuel for its heat.

(voice-over): The European Union depends on Russia for a quarter of its natural gas needs, but that supply is down for the second time already this year, so Europeans have been asked to conserve. Italians, for example, to turn their thermostats down a degree.

Meanwhile, in Lithuania, where it was too cold for the country's swans to take off for their migration south, people do what they can to keep warm. The country's first-ever belly dancing competition was turned into a protest against the cold. The timing couldn't have been better.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: So how cold is it in this country? Meteorologist Jacqui Jeras has the forecast now in the CNN Weather Center. Hey, Jacqui.

(WEATHER REPORT)

PHILLIPS: Jacqui, thank you.

The job cuts at Ford will cost tens of thousands of American workers their livelihoods. If you are among them, send your questions about starting over to livefrom@CNN.com. Our career counselor will answer some of your e-mails in the next hour of LIVE FROM, and also we can extend it out.

If you are in year of losing your job, even in a different industry, or you worked for another auto company, send us your e- mails, and we will address them all with the counselor. Livefrom@CNN.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: We'll talk about the Ford layoffs in a just a minute, but first, a story that Fredricka Whitfield is working on for us in the news room -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Well, the problem is if you have to get in the car and get on the beltway anywhere around Montgomery County, Maryland, particularly around Silver Spring. Because take a look at this live picture right now. Because of this accident involving what appears to be a truck carrying some sort of liquids or potentially even chemicals, has careened into that interior barrier -- and then as broaden out the picture here -- you will see that traffic is now at a standstill there.

We don't know exactly which exit this is near, only that it is around the Silver Spring area near Montgomery County, Maryland, on Washington's beltway. And ordinarily this is a very busy thoroughfare, whether it's rush hour or even during non-rush hour. And you can right there the backup that has already begun -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: We will continue to follow live pictures and check in with you. Thank you very much.

Now we want to talk about a lot of families. Maybe 30,000 families are reeling from news that Ford plans to cut up to 30,000 jobs. Especially worried? People in the middle of their working years, too young to retire, too old at first glance to start new careers.

Let's talk with Jim Smyth. He's in Lansing, Michigan. He works at the nearby Ford plant that's scheduled to close. John Challenger is in Chicago. He's the CEO of career consulting firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas. Good to have you both.

And I want to start with you, Jim. And just to give a little background for John and also for our viewers, you are 59 years old. You were not planning to retire any time soon. How long have you been working for Ford, and why did you choose to work for Ford?

JIM SMYTH, FORD EMPLOYEE: I've been working for Ford for 38 years, come February 14th. And I chose it because it was a good job back then. My father worked there and my uncle worked there. And they have since retired, and I'm still there.

PHILLIPS: Jim, stay with me, and John.

We've got an update, I'm being told, on the condition of former president Gerald Ford. Fred, what are you hearing?

WHITFIELD: That's right. We are getting some early indications that he may be released from the hospital. Our Kareen Wynter is in Rancho Mirage. And Kareen, has he been released or is it that he's about to be released?

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest statement coming out of former president Gerald Ford's press office. Good news, Fredricka, that the former president has been released from Eisenhower Medical Center here in Rancho Mirage, California, near Palm Springs.

And we're all surprised. Usually, it's the end of the day that we receive these news releases. They are very, very short, to the point, stating his condition. And for the past several days, the 92- year-old former president has been hospitalized here for a little over a week. It's been just that, you know, his condition has not been life-threatening, isn't life-threatening, just very, very vague.

But the statements have been coming early in the day, saying that Mr. Ford has been released. Also that the Ford family wishes to thank everyone for their prayers and well-wishers. Of course, Mr. Ford was being treated here for pneumonia. He was receiving respiratory therapy -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Kareen Wynter, thank you so much from Rancho Mirage. So without very much fanfare, the oldest living former president has been released from the hospital there in Rancho Mirage after being treated for pneumonia initially over a week ago -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, that's good news. We'll continue to follow, of course, his health as he finally gets home.

Meanwhile, we're talking about the job cuts at Ford. I want to bring Jim Smyth back in from Lansing, Michigan. He has worked at the nearby Ford plant there for 38 years. And then also John Challenger out of Chicago. He's the CEO of the career consulting firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas.

And we were talking about your story, specifically, Jim. Thirty- eight years. You are 59 years old. This is all that you have known. You really haven't shown interest in any type of work. I mean, this is what you thought you were going to do for the rest of your career, yes?

SMYTH: No, I've done other things. But, you know, it's kind of been enjoyable to work and do work at Ford. And I just don't feel it's right what they've done.

PHILLIPS: What has frustrated you the most about this?

SMYTH: Well, kind of when we had our little meeting, they come out, and they kind of put everything out like they're doing better in China -- or 50 percent or something in China and Russia and Brazil, and all the other countries. And they don't think about America. America should count. His dad made the first cars here.

PHILLIPS: You bring up an interesting point about history, how times have changed. John, no doubt, you have probably found that doing what you do in that individuals like Jim, who have worked for these companies for 38 years, times have changed and competition has played a big factor in why these companies are either downsizing or going under?

JOHN CHALLENGER, CHALLENGER, GRAY & CHRISTMAS: Well, no question, Kyra. The job market has changed today. People may change companies five or six times in a career, and that makes it much harder when you have to go through those periods of job loss. But it does make it easier that more companies are open to people who have lost their jobs. They look for the skills they have and how they can be transferred into their environments.

PHILLIPS: Well, Jim, let's take your -- let's get a back and forth discussion going here. Obviously you know what's going to happen now with regard to your job at Ford. Are you interested in taking a different type of job? Let me ask you that first.

SMYTH: Well, it's not that I'm worried about another job. It's that, you know, am I going to have a pension? You know, are we going to get taken down the road like most of the places in America today? That's -- you know, people -- that's kind of hard to swallow, the way they're doing things. They can say, you know, the job -- everybody can say that kind of stuff, just like he just said, you know, that's -- you're going to switch careers that much. Well, I think, you know, people ought to take a different look in life because it shouldn't be that way. It should be able to be that you can stand steady and sound. And Ford's been here for years. It's just they can do it cheaper over there because of the people and because the government won't lower the healthcare costs, and it's...

PHILLIPS: So you're concerned about your pension. That's your main concern right now?

SMYTH: Well, the pension, and, you know, what about the other people? What about the younger families that -- they're destroying them. Do they really think they are going to create sales when they get rid of 30,000 people? Do you think them 30,000 people are going to buy from them again?

PHILLIPS: All right, let's talk about the younger employees you said you have shown concern about in a moment. But let's start with you. What would be your recommendation, John, to Jim? Jim, I know you said you've done other type of work in the past. I mean, John, would you take someone like Jim and say OK, let's sit down, let's talk about what your options are here. How would you start to guide Jim?

CHALLENGER: Well, we would do just that. One of the most important things is when you first lose a job, it's very difficult emotionally. You've been there for a long time. So most people need some time to kind of get their feet back under them and then begin to look.

And in this situation, many of the workers have a year or two years that they're going to continue to work or be paid, sometimes longer, they can begin to prepare for what other kinds of jobs might they hold, what kind of education can they get that will prepare them for those? They might find other jobs in manufacturing or security or retail. You know, there are many areas of the economy that are doing strong right now. You know, automotive is one of the toughest places.

PHILLIPS: All right, John, if you were to sit down with Jim, go ahead and have the conversation. What would you ask him right now if Jim came to you and said I need help, I want to find another job that I'm going to be happy with and I'm going to make good money for my family.

CHALLENGER: Well, so Jim, then, tell me about some of those skills that you have, what you've been working on, some of the other jobs you've had. You know, what was where you thought you accomplished the most before, what kind of work?

SMYTH: Well, I've put in cabinets, kitchens, bathrooms. I do almost anything. I can do plumbing, electrical. But it doesn't matter. It all boils down to whether you can get your permits and your degrees and all the stuff. And some people just have a hard time dealing with that, but I can see that there's a lot of people that think everything comes very easy. You know, reading, writing, you know. Everybody is not the same. And if we were, it would be a dull world. PHILLIPS: So John, what do you say to someone like Jim? I mean, Jim obviously is struggling and not feeling very optimistic about his situation.

SMYTH: No, I'm not. I'm not feeling very optimistic about America, because we're not taking care of America. We should be taking care of America, not the foreign countries.

PHILLIPS: Boy, this could be a whole another debate about import/export and jobs and outsourcing and all of that. I can see where we're going, Jim.

SMYTH: Well, you know...

PHILLIPS: No, we can touch on that. But let's think right now. I mean, let's think about your future and how you can move forward for you, for your family. You talk about your other interests in construction. I mean, you sound like a Renaissance man. You can pretty much do anything. The jobs that Jim mentioned, John, are they out there? I mean, can he find that kind of work?

CHALLENGER: You know, he really can. We've been through a housing boom. You know, it may be slowing down a bit, but there are thousands of jobs, you know, tens of thousands that have been created in the residential construction boom. And it sounds like Jim has got skills, you know, that he could go to work for those organizations, some of those companies. So maybe, you know, start with a bunch of friends and go out and start to do that work. So you are certainly not coming out from a good company like Ford without skills that could be utilized in the job market.

PHILLIPS: With regard to how Jim would go about finding jobs like this, is it an issue of going online? I mean, what would be the easiest way for Jim to find, say, work in construction or cabinetry, something where he does have a talent and a gift?

CHALLENGER: Well, a number of ways. One, to begin to assemble, you know, the companies in the area that are doing construction and home remodeling and renovation, you know, and to begin to go out to them to see what kinds of jobs they have open.

Many of these jobs today, you know, are being posted, you know, out on the web, so to put together a resume that would allow him to respond to those kinds of jobs as they get advertisers is very important.

And, again, Jim, you are going to be working for a while, right? So you can start this right now. It is not like you are caught, you know, out of work and, you know, you need a job tomorrow.

PHILLIPS: What do you think, Jim?

SMYTH: That's not the point.

PHILLIPS: You're still just frustrated with the issue of why there's layoffs. SMYTH: You know, it's pretty easy. I'm sorry. I know he makes a ton of money, and I don't.

PHILLIPS: Well, Jim brings up an interesting point about--I mean, John, let me ask you, do you get these types of questions? I mean, obviously your expertise is to try to find new careers or job opportunities for other people, but do you get people like Jim coming to you and saying, you know, the world is changing and I'm frustrated, I need to be inspired again?

CHALLENGER: Well, we do. And again, realize, I mean, Jim has just heard this two days ago. You know, 38 years with a company. You have been fighting to try to keep this company alive and loyal to the organization. And when you lose your job, to be upbeat and positive and confident about your future two days into this kind of news is very difficult for anybody.

But as time goes on, you know, Jim, obviously, you know, getting your feet back on the ground and knowing that the kinds of skills that you have, you know, and what you can do in the job market, you do know that. I think you know that you are good at what you do.

A lot of times people get down and defensive about what's happened. Then it's hard to go out and interview and say I'm ready to go forward in my life. But, again, this is just two days. There is a lot of time ahead where, you know, there will be more opportunity.

PHILLIPS: Jim Smyth, I know you are a survivor. I know you have worked on the farm. You have a lot of grandkids and family that need you to be strong right now. No doubt. I'm going to follow your progress.

And, John, I thank you for your time. You mentioned a number of web sites, jobcentral.com, simplyhired.com, indeed.com.

Final thought, Jim?

SMYTH: I'm not worried about that kind of stuff. I'm just more worried about where we're going as a country. Are we going to take care of America? Or are we going to let it fall on its fanny?

PHILLIPS: You know, we'll be staying on that story too, Jim Smyth. I promise you that.

SMYTH: I'm sorry, but, you know, I feel like...

PHILLIPS: Hey, you have no reason to be sorry. That's how you feel. A lot of people are feeling that way.

SMYTH: I guess I'm a true American guy that thinks that an American in America should count. And I'm fully afraid of the Chinese just making their stuff, coming over here and taking us over because we're building everything for them to do it.

PHILLIPS: Jim, we have got to leave it there.

John Challenger thanks for your time.

CHALLENGER: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: We've got to take a quick break. All right. We'll be right back.

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PHILLIPS: January in Utah every year filmmakers, stars and studio moguls brave the conditions to head to Park City and not to ski, right? Since 1981 Robert Redford's Sundance Film Festival has become the go to destination for people who want to make it in the movies.

Our own Brooke Anderson is there too to give the rest of us a look at what is now a very big event. And I'm sure a lot of those people do a little skiing at least, Brooke.

BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I bet. You know, I haven't been able to do that, Kyra, but I'm sure a lot of celebrities are hitting the slopes today on a very beautiful day here in Park City. It is cool but very sunny. I'm here right on Main Street where most of the activity does happen.

A substantial amount of activity here today. People are attending meetings. They are attending screenings. In fact, right behind me at the Egyptian Theater, a big group of people just went into see a film from Denmark titled, "Allegra," and also people are hitting the gift suites. They are walking away with tens of thousands of dollars worth of luxury items, if you can believe that.

But it is a very, very exciting time for independent film making. Sundance is considered the premier showcase for independent filmmakers. It was, as you say, founded by Robert Redford.

Kyra, many of Hollywood's biggest names got their start here, including Steven Soderbergh with "Sex, Lies, and Videotape," Kevin Smith with "Clerks." In fact, Kevin told me yesterday that if it weren't for Sundance, he would still be working a cash register at $5 hour.

Also, Quentin Tarantino with "Reservoir Dogs" got his start here. So it is a very critical point, critical time for a lot of independent filmmakers trying to get their start. One hundred twenty films will be screened here at Sundance. And, Kyra, listen to this, that includes 59 first time filmmakers. Pretty cool.

PHILLIPS: Wow, new stars to be discovered.

Brooke Anderson, we'll keep checking in with you throughout the week. Thanks.

His confirmation is probably a formality. But that doesn't preclude a few formalities for Samuel Alito at the White House. Details in just a moment.

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