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Attorney General Testifies about Wiretapping Program to Senate; Al Qaeda Prisoners Escape from Yemeni Prison; Coretta Scott King Lies in State; Special Branch of Military Defuses IEDs

Aired February 06, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: I'm Kyra Phillips live in B Control at the CNN headquarters in Atlanta.
Topping our security watch: is domestic spying necessary? Is it legal and who are the targets? Terrorists or ordinary Americans? Yes, yes and terrorists says Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in long-awaited testimony to a skeptical Senate Judiciary Committee.

Let's get straight to Capitol Hill and congressional correspondent Ed Henry. How is Gonzales doing? Is he convincing?

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's convincing some of his fellow Republicans, clearly. No Democrats seem convinced. And that's not a surprise.

But I think what's more troublesome for the attorney general is that the Republican chairman, Arlen Specter, still seems unconvinced. As you know, before these hearings he said that this could be a clear violation of the law. Today he also reiterated he believes the president does not deserve a blank check. He had some tough questions for the attorney general.

He's responding in kind to both Republicans and Democrats. The attorney general saying that critics are misinformed about this program. He said the only reason why they bypassed the so-called FISA court, for -- named for the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, is for speed and that a delay could mean the difference between success and failure in terms of stopping a terrorist attack.

And he also suggested that lawmakers could be aiding terrorists. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Our enemy is listening, and I cannot help but wonder if they aren't shaking their heads in amazement at the thought that anyone would imperil such a sensitive program by leaking its existence in the first place, and smiling at the prospect that we might now disclose even more or perhaps even unilaterally disarm ourselves of a key tool in the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: And you can bet that the administration, if they're having successes with this program, would like to talk about it, but as you heard the attorney general say there, this is such a -- it was a super secret program, but still has aspects of it that are secret even though it's been leaked out. And they just can't talk about it in open forum, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Democrats are definitely talking about it.

HENRY: No doubt about it. And I think what you have to remember to set the table here is that the last time Democrats were in the room behind me as part of the judiciary committee hearings was for Judge, now Justice Alito's hearings. And there was a lot of criticism among the Democrats themselves. They did not do a good enough job.

This time they came out of the box fired up. And I can tell you the top Democrat here, Patrick Leahy, was really going after the attorney general. And you could tell he was fed up with the idea that every time there's a tough question asked of the administration, the attorney general comes back with that line I just mentioned: you may be aiding the terrorists. Take a listen to what Senator Leahy said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), RANKING DEMOCRAT, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Mr. Attorney General, in America, our America, nobody is above the law, not even the president of the United States. There's much that we did not know about the president's secret spying program. I hope we're going get some more answers, some real answers, not self- serving characterizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: The Democrats are basically saying they support giving the administration every tool they need in the war on terror, but they only want to give them legal tools, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So there was a mini outbursts, as compared to an outburst?

HENRY: That's right. He kicked it all off -- it's interesting. Just to show you just the fact that, while this was a legal battle, it's clearly a political battle, even before the testimony from the attorney general started, there was a mention by the chairman, Specter, that the attorney general had offered to be sworn in at the beginning of his testimony.

Specter on his own had decided that was not necessary, that he was going give truthful testimony anyway. So the Democrats demanded a vote on the chairman's decision. They, of course, last that on a party line vote.

The chairman insisted, look, the bottom line is there are statutes on the books already that any witness before Congress has to tell the truth whether they're sworn in or not. That's usually just theatrics.

But you can tell the Democrats are pretty upset about that, also upset about the fact that there's a DVD they've been passing around as part of their show, and basically, that includes some remarks the president made last year when he was insisting that roving wiretaps still get court orders. Democrats raising questions about whether the president was being truthful.

Of course, the Republicans have said he was referring to the Patriot Act; it was not about this domestic surveillance program. But you can bet the Democrats are going to have some tough questions about all of this, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll follow it all. Ed Henry, thank you so much.

As he mentioned, abuse of power or weapons against terror? The debate heats up, of course, here on LIVE FROM, as well, when two judiciary committee members join us to air their opposing views, Democrat Dick Durbin and Republican John Cornyn coming up later, right here on CNN.

A clear and present danger to all countries. Interpol's urgent alert in light of a prison break in Yemen. Twenty-three dangerous escapees, more than half of whom are convicted al Qaeda terrorists. One oversaw the deadly attack on the USS Cole in 2000. A search is underway as a former U.S. ambassador reflects on the state of Yemen's penal system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA BODINE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO YEMEN: This is an extraordinarily poor country. It not only doesn't have complete control, but we need to understand that this prison is not up to the standards of a U.S. prison. This is not breaking out of Riker's.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins me now.

Barbara, if the prisons aren't secure, then why lock these terrorists up in this prison? Why not take them someplace else?

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, Yemen is trying to demonstrate to the west that it has a handle on its security situation, that -- they have claimed for some time that they've essentially broken the back of the al Qaeda network in their country that did mastermind the Cole attack. That they had sympathizers left, they had some individuals left in their country that were loyal to al Qaeda, but that basically, was there not a network of operatives in the country.

This, of course, now calls that into serious question. This prison, we are told by officials, was part of the political security apparatus in Yemen. That means it was under political control, and there is great suspicion that those who escaped had some inside help, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So what does this mean for Yemen right now? When you say inside help, is this a situation where there was some bartering going on, money involved inside the prison? Or are you talking about inside help with regard to people on the outside kind of working within?

STARR: You know, no one can say yet. The Yemenis are trying to find these people. They have launched a nationwide manhunt in their country looking for them. As you say, Interpol has notified 184 nations to be on the lookout.

But the thing that appears to be emerging, they dug a tunnel. They dug their way out. Somebody must have helped them, either on the inside or the outside or both. Someone must have seen this activity. Somebody must have known about it. And so that is the second part of the problem here, not just getting these people, but finding out where the Yemeni security apparatus may have been penetrated by those loyal to al Qaeda and seeing how they shut that down.

The Yemeni government, we are told by U.S. officials, is very aware that this is a very significant problem for them, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: What about the loyalty to Osama bin Laden? Could he be involved?

STARR: You know, hard to say that he would be directly involved. No one can say for sure whether he has the communication from wherever he is all the way inside a prison in Yemen.

But, clearly, what we're looking at is a country where there are still people very loyal to the al Qaeda philosophy, still very loyal to jihad. And apparently they took advantage of it in this situation, and that's how this escape occurred.

One U.S. official saying when I asked, how serious is this? How serious are these people who escaped? And he referred to these people as Osama bin Laden's dream list. These are the people that bin Laden very much would like to have out of jail.

PHILLIPS: So you were there for a couple of weeks. We ran your pieces. What's your take on all this?

PHILLIPS: You know, this has got to be a major embarrassment to the government of Yemen. The president, the ministers had all been making a case on the world stage that they had a handle on the security problem. This now sets that back significantly. And it is a setback -- there is no question -- for U.S. military planning.

What we learned when we went to the port of Aden, we went out with the new Yemeni coast guard. We went on a ship out into the harbor to the exact place where the Cole was attacked. And what we learned out there is Yemen has been working with the U.S. Navy. There was a plan to bring a U.S. Navy warship back into that harbor within the next several months.

The Yemenis were working urgently to try to convince the U.S. Navy they'd solved the problem, that everything was safe. They took CNN around the harbor. That is not something that the Yemeni government had done in the past. But now this certainly raising questions about whether Yemen's security and whether its maritime security is really sufficient that the U.S. Navy can go back in there, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Barbara Star, live from the Pentagon. Thanks, Barbara.

STARR: Sure.

PHILLIPS: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

Drawn together in rage and condemnation. Muslim anger over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed still sparking violence in Afghanistan today. The Associated Press reports four people were killed in two separate clashes between protesters and police. More peaceful protests in New Delhi, but still angry.

Many Muslims see the drawings, first published in a Danish newspaper, as blasphemous. Protesters clogged streets across Indonesia in the nation with more Muslims than any place else in the world. Demonstrators are demanding Denmark apologize for the controversial drawings.

Straight ahead, in a familiar place filled with friends. Coretta Scott King lies in honor this hour. A musical tribute under way, as well. We're live from the Ebenezer Baptist Church here in Atlanta.

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Wife, mother and civil rights leader and trained concert artist, Coretta Scott's King's love of music is being honored this hour. Her body lying in honor here where her late husband preached. This is actually across the street where the live musical celebration for her life at the Horizon Sanctuary is taking place.

Moments before that, you actually saw her body lying in honor in the Ebenezer Church, which is right across the street. That's actually where Martin Luther King Jr., her husband, had preached. Beautiful multicultural celebration taking place as those walk through and take a view of Coretta Scott King at Ebenezer.

CNN's Rusty Dornin joins us from Atlanta's famed Auburn Avenue. She's actually right in between both venues.

Hi, Rusty.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra, right between the old Ebenezer and the new Ebenezer. And of course, the significance of this church does not go unnoticed, because this really, in many ways, was the roots of the civil rights movement.

Martin Luther King, of course, was a pastor here, as was his father before him. The King family did have connections to the church dating back to 1894. He preached many a sermon on his message of nonviolence and social justice. Of course, his wife joining him here many times. She was a member of this congregation.

Thousands braving the really very cold weather here and the rain, waiting in line sometimes for hours to just say their final good-byes to Mrs. King in this church. She will be lying there in honor from 10 a.m. this morning until midnight tonight.

And, of course, across the street, a musical tribute, which is said to be rousing at times, dedicated to Mrs. King. Let's take a listen right now and see what they're hearing.

(MUSIC)

DORNIN: Gladys Knight is expected to also sing "You Are the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Me."

And Oprah Winfrey is here. She did stop by the old Ebenezer Baptist Church a little bit earlier, stopping by the casket to say her good-byes to Mrs. King. She's expected to give some lengthy comments at the end of this musical tribute. And the closing remarks will be made by Yolanda King, Mrs. King's daughter.

Also tonight, many of the heroes of the civil rights movement will be coming back to the new Ebenezer Baptist Church for another memorial service. And of course, the funeral will be held tomorrow in Lithonia at a different church, where her daughter Bernice is the minister. That church holds 10,000 people.

And President Bush is expected to say some things there during a eulogy, as well as the former presidents Clinton, Carter and Bush Senior will be there, as well -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: And Rusty, you know, we continue to watch these live pictures. This is inside the Horizon Sanctuary. It's the newer church right across from Ebenezer.

And maybe we can just sort of give our viewers an understanding that the ones that haven't had a chance to come to this area, Auburn Avenue, the new sanctuary where you can actually go to church on Sunday. Coretta Scott King has actually spoken there a number of times.

But Ebenezer, across the street, where her body is lying in honor, that is where he preached. It's remained unscathed -- unscathed from the day that he used to speak there. You can actually sit in the pews and listen to his sermons, and it's been so well kept. You look at the stained glass, the carpet, the pews. Everything is the way it was when he used to stand at that pulpit.

DORNIN: Right. And also, remember, he was just born down the street on Auburn Avenue, just blocks from here.

And of course, they do reserve the old Ebenezer Baptist Church for the celebration. I was just here three weeks ago when they had the celebration of Martin Luther King's birthday. That's where they have the very special events relating to his life and to the history of the church. They hold those things, because it's obviously so much smaller, but the church celebrations, the Sunday services, that sort of thing are all held in the new Ebenezer Baptist Church.

This is a whole center for Martin Luther King. Next door is also the National Park Service, the center for Martin Luther King there. Then also down the street you have where Martin Luther King's tomb is and the Center for Nonviolence and Social Justice, which Martin Luther King's wife, Coretta, started after his death.

So a lot of civil rights history and a lot of history relating to the King family, right here in a four-block area.

PHILLIPS: Rusty, we'll keep talking with you throughout the afternoon, of course, and taking live shots from both points of view. Thanks so much, Rusty.

Coming up on LIVE FROM, it's her party, but they'll gripe if they want to. Louisiana Democrats taking in Governor Kathleen Blanco. The second battle of New Orleans brewing? Keep your powder dry, we'll be back in a moment.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching LIVE FROM on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: High winds, dry brush and a fast-moving fire. Almost 100 acres burning in the Cleveland National Forest in Orange County, California. The cause isn't known, but the complications are. Strong winds pushing flames toward the Anaheim Hills where some homes may be in danger.

Let's get the latest on the conditions there and elsewhere from CNN meteorologist Jacqui Jeras.

What do you think, Jacqui?

(WEATHER REPORT)

PHILLIPS: Jacqui, thanks.

Does your e-mail service sometimes send messages into the junk mailbox before you even get to see them? Well, whether you like it or not, a new service could put an end to that.

J.J. Ramberg joins us now live from the New York Stock Exchange to tell us more about that -- J.J.

(STOCK REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Homemade bombs. The No. 1 killer of American troops in Iraq, improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, are the weapon of choice for insurgents for the simple reason that they're simple to make. They've also become more deadlier -- even deadlier, rather, and that, says "The New York Times," is why Pentagon is tripling its spending on IED defenses to roughly $3.5 billion.

"The Times" reports IEDs killed almost half of the 846 troop who died last year in Iraq.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is scheduled to speak to reporters at the top of the hour. We'll bring that to you as soon as it happens.

One of the most dangerous jobs in the Vietnam War was of the tunnel rat. Armed only with a pistol, knife and flashlight, a rat had to wiggle through narrow passageways, searching for an enemy who wanted to kill him. The Iraqi war equivalents are forces who search for and try to shut down homemade bombs.

CNN's Arwa Damon went along on one of those missions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the biggest killer in Iraq today. Not bullets, bombs. Roadside bombs often cobbled together with old wire and batteries. The kind of stuff you would pull out of your garage and rusty artillery shells easily stolen from ammo dumps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here. Right here. Around the corner.

DAMON: These men know what to look for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You see how the dirt is a different color over there? And how it's freshly dug. It's a perfect sign that there's an IED, that one's been planted there recently.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't have power to it right now.

DAMON: They're becoming more sophisticated, more deadly, but still absurdly simple. Rubber hosing, bits of metal, a power source, cell phone parts, even a timer from a clothes drier.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All they'll do is set the desired amount of time on it and about the time your clothes would be dry is about the time the explosive would go off.

DAMON: On this day the Marines arrive to western Iraq, expecting resistance. They found no enemy that would confront them face-to- face. What they did find was that walking these streets is literally like walking through a minefield: anything can blow at any time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's up? Who's hit?

DAMON: This day a Marine was unlucky. The Marine stepped on it. He was wounded. He could easily have died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do me a favor and look here (ph).

DAMON: Meet Lucky, Staff Sergeant Pete Karr. He earned his nickname the day he was standing over an IED preparing to disable it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found the device that was supposed to fire the IED, and as I was going to separate it the device exploded and I walked out without a scratch.

DAMON: Lucky is one of many men whose job is diffusing IEDs before they can maim and kill troops, civilians or journalists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best way to explain it is probably take the most stressful thing you've ever done in your life and the worst moment you've had, whatever that may be, and have someone start shooting at you and stuff blowing up all around you, and then you have something that's going to explode right down the street.

DAMON: That thing down the street is what Lucky and his colleagues stop from exploding.

The wounding of Bob Woodruff and Doug Vogt has made headlines because of who they are, but the explosions that wounded them are daily events around this country. Hundreds, perhaps more, have died. Thousands have been wounded by such blasts, but the work these men do have saved many others.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Karabala, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: If you're looking for cuts in President Bush's budget plan for fiscal 2007, look hard. The administration hand-delivered its blueprint to Congress this morning, and while many conservatives have been calling for cuts, Mr. Bush wants to increase spending 2.3 percent to $2.77 trillion. The president hopes to save money by trimming projected increase for Medicare, farm commodity programs and pension guarantees, but those savings would be dwarfed by spending increases for the military, homeland security and hurricane relief. The top Republican calls the Bush plan a solid starting point, but Democrats say it would hurt poor people while preserving tax cuts for the rich.

Straight ahead, facing the world: The first partial face transplant recipient went public today, having kept her new features hidden since the operation. You'll see what she looks like now, coming up on LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Lawmaking or rubbernecking Democrats. Even Democrats complain there's too much of the latter as Governor Kathleen Blanco convenes a special legislative session, the second so far on hurricane recovery. Some say the kickoff event, a bus tour of New Orleans, is offensive, and also they object to Blanco's opening address being given at the New Orleans Convention Center instead of the state capital. Once the session does get under way, expect major fireworks over Blanco's plan to streamline New Orleans' government.

A speck of skin, or bone or maybe a hair on a glass side, the tiniest of fragments of human live encompassing the last hope and worst fears of families torn apart by Hurricane Katrina.

In a report you'll see only on CNN, Sean Callebs looks inside the process of identifying Katrina's nameless dead through DNA.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is how they ring in good news at Louisiana's Fein Family Call Center. It means, another person has been located alive and well. Still, nearly 2,300 are listed as missing.

AMANDA SOZER, DNA IDENTIFICATION COORDINATOR: And after Katrina hit, it's like taking multiple puzzles and throwing them up in the air and scattering them all across the United States, and we're trying to pull the puzzles together and fit the missing pieces in.

CALLEBS: The state morgue, near the town of San Gabriel, holds the remains of 113 unidentified people. Trying to find matches among the legions of missing involves complex DNA testing. Amanda Sozer heads up the DNA matching effort, which, when done properly, works.

SOZER: We're looking for, in cases where we call it a cold hit, where we have a body in the morgue, and we don't know who that person is, based on other methods, a probability of 99.9 percent.

CALLEBS: You're looking at Reli-Gene, a New Orleans company that helps put together a DNA profile.

(On camera): So many people have seen it on TV, but where actually is the DNA sample?

SOZER: The DNA sample is actually in these plates that you see right here.

CALLEBS (voice over): The robot is watering down the DNA samples. The reason -- if the sample is too strong, it can't be read accurately. The same is true, however, if the sample is overly diluted. These spikes, or peaks and valleys, represent someone's unique DNA profile.

SOZER: This is the DNA fingerprint, essentially.

CALLEBS: It is also a global operation. Scientists in the former Yugoslavia, who spent years going through mass graves following war and genocide are pouring over bone fragments from Katrina victims. Researchers there are considered experts in bone DNA analysis.

SOZER: We look for similarities between the provide files and the codes in the bones to the profiles from the families.

CALLEBS: This is what families of missing loved ones go through. A simple cheek swab, creating a DNA fingerprint.

SOZER: Early one some people may have had the misconception that only one person in a family needed to be tested, so one person gave their DNA, but really, we need more people. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you do blood?

CALLEBS: The more close family members tested, the better chance the state has at putting together an accurate bar code to pinpoint a loved one. DNA sampling also works closely with other methods of IDing bodies, such as dental records.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a dental office in the Lower Ninth Ward.

CALLEBS: Douglas Cross is a dentist whose business was destroyed. He offered to help in identifying bodies, and has been wading through the muck left behind in flooded dental offices.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a number records that day, and some of them led to an ID.

CALLEBS: At one point, the Fein Family Call Center had 11,000 missing persons. It's emotional work, but employees here say there is a heartfelt benefit to paring a painful list.

(On camera): The state medical examiner believes the DNA labs have six more months worth of work trying to put names to the 113 unidentified remains. Each week hundreds of people are calling trying to find out what happened to their loved ones.

The state authorities say the sad reality is we may never know the exact death toll from Hurricane Katrina and scores of people may never know what happened to their loved ones.

Sean Callebs, CNN, New Orleans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: And if you have any questions or information about missing hurricane victims, you can call this number, 1-866-326-9393.

Straight ahead, abuse of power or a weapon against terror? The debate heats up on LIVE FROM when two Judiciary Committee members join us to hear their opposing views. Democrat Dick Durbin and Republican John Cornyn straight ahead.

As we take you to break, we'd like to take you once again live to the Horizon Sanctuary, where the musical tribute to Coretta Scott King continues.

Right now, the Atlanta Boys Choir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: She's been the focus of curiosity, speculation and debate. Now you can see her for yourself. The world's first partial face transplant patient showed off her new features today in France. Isabelle Dinoire recalled the dog mauling that left her severely disfigured and thanked the family of the donor who gave her new lips, a chin and nose. She said she can feel the new features, though she seems to have a hard time moving or closing her mouth. She also said she accepted the idea of a transplant immediately.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISABELLE DINOIRE, PARTIAL FACE TRANSPLANT PATIENT (through translator): The difficult thing was to wait without knowing on what day there would be an operation, because every day when I went out I had to bear the looks of people and their comments. And I now understand all those people who have a disability, whatever it might be. And also, I hope that the -- such operation will help other people like me to live again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Dinoire says that her new face is completely different from the way she looked before.

Four days of anguish, now comes the anger. Relatives of passengers onboard the ferry that sank in the Red Sea trashed the offices of the ship's owners in Safaga, Egypt. A thousand people are feared dead in Friday's accident; 388 are said to have survived. The rioters are desperate to find out whether their loved ones are among them. They also believe Egypt's government mishandled that rescue.

Domestic spying, bipartisan sniping. The Senate Judiciary Committee is looking hard at the hugely controversial, post-9/11 surveillance program. But Attorney General Alberto Gonzales insists the panel won't find anything wrong.

Committee members Dick Durbin and John Cornyn are taking some time out to come talk to us here on LIVE FROM. They're of course on Capitol Hill. Gentlemen, thanks for being with me.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Now, Senator Durbin, you have not been able to ask questions yet, is that right?

DURBIN: That's right.

PHILLIPS: OK, so I'm going to talk to you about that in a moment.

Senator Cornyn, are you happy with what you've heard so far?

CORNYN: Well, this is a debate that only lawyers could love. It is really a debate about the authority of the president under the Constitution and whether the sole power that he enjoys to protect our country against foreign threats is delegated by Congress through a statute. So this is an important hearing, an important debate, but I'm not sure we're going resolve that here today.

PHILLIPS: Well, of course, the advertisements have already started. I'm sure both of you have seen the moveon.org ad. I actually saw it for the first time this morning. I want to run it and get a response from both of you. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Claiming national security, Richard Nixon illegally wiretapped innocent Americans.

RICHARD NIXON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We put a law in place to protect innocent Americans, allowing the president to wiretap for national security, but requiring court approval within days.

George Bush is breaking that law. Are you having trouble telling these men apart? We have a special prosecutor then, we need a special prosecutor now.

Moveon.org Political Action is responsible for the content of this advertisement.

(END FOREIGN CLIP)

PHILLIPS: And we're talking about the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that, of course, took place after Watergate.

Senator Durbin, is this ad fair?

DURBIN: Well, I think the ad at least traces the history of the law. But, of course, drawing comparisons between President Nixon and President Bush, I'm not sure I would be doing that at this moment. I think we should ask the important questions. And the important questions are why didn't this administration follow the law that was on the books? Every president, Republican and Democrat alike, is supposed to follow that law since it was signed in 1978.

Now we hear from this Bush administration they don't have to follow this law. The president has inherent authorities as commander- in-chief or through our passage of the authorization to use military force against al Qaeda. I think he's gone too far in pushing this, and the reason for the hearing is an important reason. Attorney General Gonzales has to respond to these questions.

PHILLIPS: Senator Cornyn, what do you think about this ad and also the fact that the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, is or is it not being followed?

CORNYN: Well, I would hope we would agree on a bipartisan basis, all Americans would agree, that the president should use every power available to him within the law to gather intelligence and keep the American people safe and now we're debating about what the law is or is not.

The ad, I think, is misleading. Number one, this is not a domestic surveillance program, but rather an international surveillance program for known al Qaeda operatives overseas and calling people here in the United States. It's very narrowly tailored. And this is the same authority claimed by previous presidents, dating back probably -- well, I would suspect even to George Washington, Abraham Lincoln. Certainly modern presidents have believed they've had this power to protect Americans using intercepting international surveillance or calls, including President Clinton.

PHILLIPS: So are you saying the '78 act only deals with phone calls internationally, not here in the United States?

CORNYN: No, the other way around. The '78 act, clearly, if it's purely a domestic surveillance, American-to-American or person-to- person here in the United States, then the provisions of FISA clearly provide for a procedure to get access to that information.

But there's no suggestion, really, that I've seen, that the president has no authority except that delegated by Congress under FISA. And I would hope that we could all agree that it's important that we be partners with the administration, with the executive branch, and not adversaries claiming no, you have power, or I have power, you have none, and vice versa.

PHILLIPS: Alberto Gonzales, of course, sticking closely to the fact that the NSA, he says, is necessary. There's no laws that have been broken. Here's what he said earlier on today before you two.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The terrorist surveillance program is necessary, it is lawful and it respects the civil liberties we all cherish. It is well within the mainstream of what courts and prior presidents have authorized. It is subject to careful constraints and congressional leaders have been briefed on the details of its operation. To end the program now would be to afford our enemy dangerous and potentially deadly new room for operation within our own borders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Senator Durbin, do you agree with that? Would we be opening the doors to the enemy?

DURBIN: No, we don't and we shouldn't. I think you're going to find Democrats and Republicans are speaking with one voice here. If we have an opportunity to wiretap a suspected terrorist involved with al Qaeda or some affiliated organization, we should do it. I don't care whether they're calling overseas or within the United States.

Our point of view, though, is that the president should do it within the law. And the law says that a FISA court judge will take a look at it and make sure that is a good, worthy use of government resources. And overwhelmingly by a margin of 20,000 to five, the court has approved everything this administration's asked for.

But what we hear from Attorney General Gonzales is he doesn't want to follow the law anymore. He doesn't even want the FISA court judge involved in it. It troubles me, because after 9/11, many of us on both sides of the aisle said to the Bush administration, tell us what you need to make America safe. And with only one dissenting vote, we overwhelming gave this president the tools he asked for to fight for terrorists. We'd do it again if they'd come to Capitol Hill.

PHILLIPS: Senator Cornyn, I know we keep naming numerous laws. We talked about the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Senator Durbin continually talking about breaking the law. I want to bring one more up, gentlemen. That's the National Security Act of 1947 that says intelligence committee members should be kept quote, "fully and currently informed on intelligence activities and covert action." OK. What happened to following this act? Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: Well, other laws that certainly apply to the Constitution of the United States and the Use of Force Resolution that was passed post-9/11, so we can't just look at some of the laws. We need to look at all the laws.

But, you know, you think about the paradox or the difficulty that the administration is left with. Briefing the Gang of Eight, so to speak, Democratic and Republican leaders of the Intelligence Committees and leadership in both bodies -- that's been the scope of disclosure made now over the last four years. So there has been consultation with Congress.

Now, the question is whether all members of all of the intelligence committees should be briefed or more broadly. Well, it makes it harder and harder to keep the secrets that are important to keep these programs up and running and intercepting these terrorist communications. So it's a real quandary. I hope we can find a solution.

PHILLIPS: Final thought, Senator Durbin. I'll let you button it up here. Do we need to go past the Gang of Eight and make sure everybody is informed on the committee, versus just the Gang of Eight?

DURBIN: Well, I think they should inform the entire committee. But keep in mind, everyone who's informed is sworn to secrecy. It isn't as if you could object to this program publicly. You couldn't do that legally as a member of the Intelligence Committee or leadership. We need to have proper congressional oversight, so we don't have an abuse of power by any president.

PHILLIPS: Senator Durbin, Senator Cornyn. Gentlemen, we'll continue to watch the hearings and we'll be looking at your questions, Senator Durbin. We saw Senator Cornyn. Good luck, gentlemen.

Polished styles or urban chic. Fashionistas are eyeing the catwalks in New York. Of course, Sibila's there.

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I'm backstage, actually, where some of the top designers are unveiling their fall fashions. I'll give you a preview when CNN LIVE FROM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: Slimming silhouettes, well-tailored designs, fall fashion takes center stage in New York this week. Our Sibila Vargas got an eyeful -- well, I don't know if we'll all be wearing those outfits. Maybe if we're size zero

VARGAS: And you've got a lot of money, too. I just finished seeing Oscar De La Renta, he just showed his fall line, just beautiful. Also Carolina Herrera, another designer that's been doing it for decades. She showed us some beautiful things as well.

I have Kate Betts over here. She's going to break some of this down for us. She's very knowledgeable with this from "Time Style and Design." Thank you so much for joining us.

You just got to see the Oscar De La Renta show. What did you think?

KATE BETTS, EDITOR, "TIME STYLE & DESIGN": Beautiful collection. Rich, my God! These clothes are expensive, but very beautiful. He did amazing, big statement for pants, menswear influence, fur, fur details. That's a huge trend, animal prints which I always love for fall, but it is full of rich details and it is, you know paired down, but still extremely luxurious fabrics and furs and things like that.

VARGAS: We saw the things happening this morning with Carolina Herrera, very rich and also we got to see a little bit of the fur. Do you think that's going to be a trend this fall.

BETTS: I think fur and fur detailing like fur collars, fur shawls, fur sleeves with Carolina Herrera. It's incorporated into the clothing there, too. It's not just a coat or a hat or a bag. So that's interesting.

VARGAS: Obviously, not every woman is going to be able to afford some of these designs. These inspirations, how long before we can actually see them on the regular racks?

BETTS: Well, things happen so quickly now. All of this film, all of these pictures will be on the Internet in about three minutes and anybody can download them and they'll be copied instantly. So I think what you will see really quickly as soon as the next few months for spring will be this pants statement. There are pants galore, evening pant which is I thought was an interesting trend here that I think going forward we'll see a lot of that. So you'll see specific items like that copied right away and hitting the streets right away. It happens instantly.

VARGAS: Also, speaking to Carolina Herrera and Oscar De La Renta today, they talked about boldness, powerful that we haven't seen in women before that's definitely ideal to this particular time. Is that something that you've been feeling and something you've been seeing?

BETTS: It's funny, Diane von Furstenberg dedicated her whole show to working women yesterday. And you hear people talking about it a lot in their inspiration. Powerful women, working women, much stronger lines in the clothes. Very strong silhouettes. The whole pants statement. It's a tougher kind of hard core look, I think.

VARGAS: Okay. I can take that. Can you dig that, Kyra? Hard core? Back to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Sibila. We'll check in, of course, in the next couple of hours and find out the other latest fashions going on.

Life-saving alternative or false hope? A lot of people facing a terminal diagnosis turn to it. LIVE FROM explores holistic healing with the help of two experts coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: So you want to know more about domestic spying. If you listened in on a long-awaited Senate hearing today, you'll still be out of luck. The Judiciary Committee heard today from Attorney General Alberto Gonzales who said the program is legal but most people never should have learned it existed.

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