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Saddam Goes on Hunger Strike; Jury Selection Begins for Penalty Phase of Moussaoui Trial; Bush Congratulates Texas Longhorns; Bird Shot Lodged in Heart of Cheney Shooting Victim
Aired February 14, 2006 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And live from CNN B Control, I'm Tony Harris, in for Kyra Phillips.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Betty Nguyen at the CNN headquarters here in Atlanta, along with Tony Harris. LIVE FROM starts right now.
No alcohol or misconduct, but a warning in the case of the vice president and the shot heard around the world. Texas authorities have cleared Dick Cheney of any wrongdoing in the mishap that left his hunting companion, Harry Whittington, hospitalized.
But it turns out both men were breaking state law. They each had a hunting license but lacked a required stamp. Both men have been issued a warning.
Meanwhile, Whittington is out of intensive care at the Corpus Christi hospital. Now we are expecting an update on his condition any moment now. You will see it live right here on CNN when it happens.
HARRIS: Well, he wore a tie, but he's forgoing the food. Saddam Hussein returned to court today, better dressed but as defiant as ever. The toppled leader started the session by declaring he's on a hunger strike. His half-brother showed up again to court in his underwear.
CNN's Aneesh Raman witnessed the spectacle.
Aneesh, I know it's chaotic, but is it out of control?
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, not yet. It's actually getting into a better situation than what we saw under the former chief judge. The new chief judge trying to bring some semblance of control to what has really been chaos up till now.
Today, Saddam Hussein announcing that for the past three days he's been on a hunger strike, joined alongside in that hunger strike by his half-brother, Barzan Hasan al-Tikriti, who as you mentioned, showed up today again in his pajamas. Also, Awad Bandar, the former chief judge of the country's revolutionary court.
Now Saddam back in court, back on the attack, today hurling insults directly at the chief judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): I need to speak. I don't want to discuss the -- you were appointed by Bremer. Your government was appointed by Bremer. You can't try the president against the law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, you're a defendant. You have to stand up to speak. I will not listen to you if you're sitting down. You have to stand up.
HUSSEIN: Take that hammer and knock it on your own head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAMAN: Mockery from Saddam. The new chief justice, Tony, has brought a more militant style in handling this court. And while we are still seeing outbursts from Saddam and his other co-defendants, the trial is proceeding forward. We heard from three witnesses today, all of them former members of Saddam's regime.
The court, though, is adjourned now for two weeks, set to resume on February 28 with more witnesses -- Tony.
HARRIS: Aneesh, why two weeks? Why so long?
RAMAN: We have no idea. The court didn't give any reason in the court session. After the session, they had a press conference with a spokesman for the court. I asked that very question, got no answer.
It's the seventh time the court has taken a break. Two times, they've done it for more than a month. We're told in the abstract they take these long breaks because of the difficult logistical issues in Iraq, given the security situation, which means bringing witnesses in to the highly fortified Green Zone where the trial takes place, but that has been a perennial problem dogging this process, as well -- Tony.
HARRIS: Aneesh, what are we getting from these witnesses, anything dramatic so far by the way of testimony?
RAMAN: Nothing yet. We're in the second phase of what will be a 10-phase trial. This is when they get witnesses who are part of Saddam's regime to supposedly provide direct links between Saddam and the seven co-defendants in the case at hand.
The witnesses today, though, all began by saying they didn't want to appear in court, that they had nothing to add to this trial. The first witness, every statement he made was based on something he had heard, hearsay. Do the prosecution still not putting forward any witness that is directly linking these men to the case at hand -- Tony.
HARRIS: Boy, this is really something. Aneesh Raman in Baghdad for us. Aneesh, thank you.
Bombs, bullet, and more bodies. It's been a deadly 24 hours in the Baghdad area. There's been a string of bombings. One of them killed a coalition soldier. No word on where he was from.
Meantime, in towns of north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi forces have been clashing with insurgents. An Iraqi army major and his son have been killed, along with one of the insurgents.
Also north of Baghdad, a police officer has been killed in a checkpoint. And in the capital itself, police found four bullet- riddled bodies. No I.D. on them yet -- Betty.
NGUYEN: The judge in the Zacarias Moussaoui trial has had enough of his outbursts.
Moussaoui pleaded guilty last April to terrorism charges stemming from the September 11 attacks. Now a jury is being picked to decide whether he should die for that crime.
Moussaoui's repeated outbursts, though, have disrupted proceedings. And today, the judge barred Moussaoui from the courtroom until jury selection is complete.
CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena joins us from Washington. Kelli, what was the last straw here?
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, he has been disruptive very consistently, and today the judge, Leonie Brinkema, said, "Look, you know, we're here to decide whether you can sit quietly and allow your lawyers to represent you or not."
And he just kept going back at her and back at her. And she finally said, "Look, are you going to sit there quietly?"
And he said, "No, I'm going to lecture." And he was escorted out of the courtroom. The judge says that from now on he'll be watching jury selection from a television in his cell. In that -- in that courtroom, he will not be allowed in the courtroom.
NGUYEN: All right, Kelli, you know, aside from all of these disruptions, as you mentioned, jury selection in the sentencing phase does start tomorrow. What kind of juror are they looking for?
ARENA: Well, I mean, it's very hard. This jury pool is a hard one. It's in Alexandria, Virginia. Lots of government workers, lots of people who may have access to sensitive information, people who are likely to have known somebody who was -- who worked at the Pentagon, part of the 9/11 attack.
So they're looking for people, obviously, who can be fair. There's also a big Muslim population there. So this is going to be going on for about a month. They have a jury pool of more than 400 that they're starting with. Small groups will show up. Little by little, they'll whittle that down to about 85 and then whittle that down again, you know, to their permanent and their alternate jurors.
So it is expected to take some time, another month, and then at the beginning of March, we are expected to have the sentencing phase of the trial begin. And of course, the choices are life in prison or death.
NGUYEN: Do you think Moussaoui will be able to testify?
ARENA: Well, he'd like to. He says that he would like to. And that's something that the judge said would be decided later on.
You know, you have no idea what it's like to be in that courtroom when these outbursts occur, because the things that he says are unbelievable. I mean, today, once again, he identified himself as al Qaeda. He said, "I am al Qaeda. I am a sworn enemy. You know, these lawyers don't represent me."
He attacked, again, verbally, his lawyers. He called one of them a KKK lawyer. Happens to be a southerner. He called another a geisha lawyer, happens to be a Japanese-American.
He told the court that they had been, you know, planning, you know, organizing his death for four years. And when he walked out, he said a curse to America. So very dramatic. We're not talking, you know, just a few outbursts here and there. We're talking a litany from beginning to end.
NGUYEN: Some of the things that have been said have been really out there. We'll be watching. Kelli Arena, thank you.
ARENA: Thank you.
NGUYEN: Tony.
HARRIS: Hey, Betty. Want to take you to South Lawn of the White House where President Bush is meeting with the football champions, the college football champions of the universe, the Texas Longhorns. Let's listen in to the president.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... called one of those Texas fans, who shall remain anonymous. I said, "How was it?"
He said, "That game was the greatest day in my life."
I said, "Well, how about your wedding?"
He said, "Yes, that, too."
I want to welcome Mack and Sally Brown here. Congratulations, coach, for doing something that -- for leading this group of great athletes to a victory that made a lot of Texans proud.
I know you made a person you admire proud. And a fellow who I wish were here today but he's not, and that's Coach Darrell Royal. We send Coach Royal our -- we send him our very best and you're following in his footsteps.
You know, you learn something about the press, in all due respect to those that are here. They tend to underestimate people sometimes. I remember, they started calling you Mr. February. Well, today, Mack, you're giving February -- the title Mr. February a whole new meeting. This February, you brought the national champs to the White House.
And you can see, you've brought out a lot of folks to the South Lawn. We've never had quite a celebration this big here, and it's because there's a lot of Texas fans living here in Washington. But we've got some of the university officials with us. Mr. President, Bill Power, it's good to see you, sir. I appreciate you coming and your wife Kim. It's good to see Mark Udoff (ph) and Judy. As well as Samara, good to see you all again. I see members of the board of regents, James Huffines (ph) and Rita Clements, other members of the board. Thank you for being here.
DeLoss Dodds, I appreciate you doing a fine -- there he is, yes, sir. I want to congratulate the coaching staff. One of the members of this staff has had an influence on my life. I might ask him to come up here. Oh, yes. Mad Dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
BUSH: My body is what it is today because of Mad Dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.
BUSH: I appreciate you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appreciate you.
BUSH: He taught me -- he said, "If you ever make it to Washington, I promise you, Mr. President to be, I'm coming up there with a team of champions and he did."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very true.
BUSH: Congratulations, buddy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir. An honor. A pleasure.
BUSH: I didn't know you owned a suit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, had to get one made.
BUSH: I didn't know they had one big enough. But Jeff is -- yes...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He can say that; ya'll can't say that!
BUSH: One reason the mighty Horns are here is because they were in good shape, and they were tough and they were in good condition. And the reason they were was because of Jeff Madden (ph) and his -- his belief in them as athletes and his willingness to work hard to get him in shape. And so you guys keep listening to him.
I want to thank the members of my cabinet who are with us today. We appreciate you being here. I want to thank the members of Congress. Senator Hutchinson, who's a huge Texas fan, as well as members of the House of Representatives. Thank you all for being here to welcome this great football team. Get back to work here, quickly. The -- Mack can tell you what it takes to win. But one thing it takes is a team of great athletes playing together. That's how you win national championships. I suspect it's the difference between showing up and, you know, winning all but two and showing up and winning them all, is that people figure out how to put something greater than themselves on the line.
In this case, the University of Texas football team, this was a team that -- great power, great finesse. They were real quick. But the thing that impressed me about the team -- and you know, we can follow you here in Washington, D.C., just as well as we can follow you in Crawford -- is that this team never seemed that they never figured out the word "lose." It never entered their vocabulary. I mean, every time they walked on to the field, you knew they were going to win.
And perhaps one of the reasons why is because they were winners off the field, as well. I'm impressed by Ahmard Hall, who's the fullback. He -- where is he? There he is. He -- I don't know if you know this or not, but he was a United States Marine. Once a Marine, always a Marine. He -- he served in Afghanistan and Kosovo. He entered the University of Texas on the G.I. Bill. He's not only a fine blocker -- you need to get him the ball more.
AHMARD HALL, TEXAS LONGHORN FULLBACK: That's what he said.
BUSH: He started something called Mama Bear Cares, which sends packages to our troops overseas. Congratulations on being a great player, but more importantly, a great citizen.
Glad to have you here. Thank you.
HALL: Thank you, sir.
BUSH: Mike Garcia's with us. Where's Mike? There he is. I'm glad we're on the same side.
Mike was involved in the Children's Miracle Network last spring. I take it you weren't a wide receiver.
MIKE GARCIA, TEXAS LONGHORN PLAYER: I tried out.
BUSH: The point is, is that this guy was good in the trenches of football and he's good in the trenches of life by supporting people who need our help. We've got some other -- I don't know if you want to call them big uglies or not. But Casey Studdard (ph) and Neil Twitty (ph) and David Thomas. Where are those guys? Come on up here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on up, guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming down, guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President this is Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, sir.
BUSH: You're looking sharp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David Thomas.
BUSH: Congratulations. Appreciate you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
BUSH: The reason I -- wait on Neil, coming down here.
HARRIS: There you have it, President Bush, South Lawn of the White House, greeting the NCAA Division 1 football champs, your Texas Longhorns.
And now from the set of LIVE FROM, our Texas correspondent with all things Texas, Betty Nguyen.
NGUYEN: All things Texas. Is that a good looking football team or what?
HARRIS: Oh, man, here we go.
NGUYEN: Hook 'em horns. Like I've always told you, you mess with Texas, what do you get, Tony?
HARRIS: You get the horns. You get the horns.
NGUYEN: You get the horns, that's right. And they've gone to Washington. So proud of those national champions.
HARRIS: And I haven't seen Vince Young.
NGUYEN: I haven't seen him either. I've been looking for him in the crowd. You think he would have been front and center, especially with the game that he played.
HARRIS: OK. All right. And there we go.
NGUYEN: I'm sure he's going to be honored in some way, no doubt.
HARRIS: Well, congratulations to Texas, congratulations to Betty.
NGUYEN: Because I had a lot to do with, right?
HARRIS: Just ahead on LIVE FROM, some are calling it FEMA's folly. Thousands of mobile homes, nearly six months after Katrina, supposed to be on the Gulf Coast, so why are they still sitting in Arkansas? We'll tell you when LIVE FROM continues on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Want to take you now live to Corpus Christi, Texas, to get an update on Harry Whittington, the man who was shot in the hunting accident involved Vice President Dick Cheney. Let's take a listen.
PETER BANKO, CHRISTUS SPOHN MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: ... today. He's the emergency department medical director for Christus Spohn Memorial. Just as a brief statement, even though Dr. Blanchard and I are kind of the faces out here in front, we've got 6,000 associates, 1,000 physicians and over 500 volunteers that are behind us doing the hard work each and every day. And I want to recognize them for the hard work they do.
Have kind of an interesting update today. This morning, at 6:30 a.m., our trauma team evaluated Mr. Mr. Whittington, and there were some changes in his status and symptoms.
We noticed an heart irregularity at that time. We quickly moved Mr. Whittington to our ICU, where he was evaluated by our cardiac team and cardiologists. They decided, based on his condition, which is called atrial fib -- Dr. Blanchard will talk about that -- that we needed to take him for a procedure called a cardiac catheterization.
He had that performed around 9 a.m. this morning. Our cardiologist and cardiac surgeons evaluated the results of that exam, as well as talked to the White House medical team about the results of that exam.
The good news is Mr. Whittington has a very healthy heart. As I said yesterday, probably healthier than mine. However, some of the bird shot appears to have moved and lodged into a part of his heart, causing the atrial fib and what we would say is a minor heart attack.
At this point in time, there's no plans to do surgery to remove that bird shot. It's fixed in the heart at this point in time.
However, it will require that we monitor Mr. Whittington for up to another seven days in the hospital to make sure no more bird shot moves into vital organs, as well as that piece of bird shot doesn't move anywhere else in the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Can you repeat that part...
BANKO: Which part do you want me to repeat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What moved?
BANKO: Some of the bird shot appears to have moved and lodged into his heart, causing what we call atrial fib. Dr. Blanchard will get into some of the medical pieces of that. And it's basically caused him to have a minor heart attack.
So we're going to need to monitor him for another week in the hospital, just to make sure that particular bird shot hasn't moved. We talked before about how there are -- bird shot was left inside him. Some of that has moved. We want to make sure others have not move, as well as that particular one is stable, before we release him from the hospital. But yes, he's actually in stable condition, talking to the doctors. He is what we call asymptomatic. He had no chest pain. Dr. Blanchard could talk, probably, in better detail about that. He's not having any chest pain, alert. He wanted -- he talked to the doctors about wanting to go home. Doing very well. But we just want to make sure that there are no future issues with that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What time did he actually have that heart attack?
BANKO: I...
DR. DAVID BLANCHARD, EMERGENCY ROOM CHIEF: We don't know exactly the time that it happened. We do know that when our trauma team and other interdisciplinary physicians were making rounds this morning we picked up an irregular heartbeat.
Bear in mind that at no time did he ever have any chest pain or the classic signs of a heart attack, anything like that. And we all know well that there are tens of thousands of people every year that have silent heart attacks that never even go into the doctor to be taken care of.
But we figure probably sometime around 6:30ish this morning. We can't put a real timetable on exactly when it did occur, though.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) relatively superficial. How then could some of the shot actually get lodged in his heart? It seems like it's pretty deep.
BLANCHARD: Well...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you explain how it moves to the heart?
BLANCHARD: Right. What happens is, when bird shot is in your body, until the inflammatory changes set in and there are fibrosis (ph) scar tissue down, there's always the risk that they can move.
And one of the things I did say yesterday, of course, is that we'll watch very closely for any migratory changes of this bird shot in the system. We knew that he had some bird shot very close to the heart from the get-go. But in point of fact, it has now got to the point where it has caused some inflammatory changes and has moved into a position where it has caused some irritability of the muscle of the heart.
And when the muscle of the heart is irritated, it does some quivering or some irritability, and he displayed those signs today in terms of listening to the heart and on the EKG, called atrial fibrillation.
So at that point, we immediately moved him back into intensive care services, to the trauma section, and called the cardiologist, which came in immediately and evaluated him and subsequently led to his cardiac cath.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much bird shot migrated? A couple of pieces?
BANKO: From what we understand, it was only one bird shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which chamber of the heart is the bird shot in and why can't you remove it?
BLANCHARD: OK. That's a very good question. We're not 100 percent certain exactly the location of where it is in the 3-D dimension. We have discussed with the White House staff, we have discussed with our cardiothoracic vascular surgeons, in conjunction with our cardiologists, what would be the best approach. We have talked to the family directly regarding that.
And when all else is equal, if you can take a conservative approach and a get good outcome in a stable, asymptomatic patient, versus a 78-year-old, and take him to surgery with all the attendant risks of anesthesia, the possibility of all other things that could happen, we feel at this point it is in his best interest to treat him in a conservative standpoint with medical therapy. And we've had the concurrence of the White House staff and all of the various specialists that we have been involved with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know a little bit about cardiac catheterization. So when you went in there, you were able to examine the blood flow in both the right and left chamber. You must be content that the blood flow is acceptable in both?
BLANCHARD: I can tell you from the report back from the cardiologists that his coronary arteries are clear. And there was even a comment made that he has the heart of a much, much younger looking individual.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BANKO: Just one point of clarification. The bird shot was not ever in the chamber of the heart, any of the chambers of the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is the White House (UNINTELLIGIBLE) beside the obvious (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BANKO: To have bird shot lodged in the heart is an extremely rare occurrence. It does not occur every day. It probably only occurs a handful of times during the -- in any given year around the country.
So therefore, cardiologists and cardiac surgeons don't run into this every day of the course of their career. They may see it once or twice in their lifetime.
So our cardiac surgeons and cardiologists wanted to consult with other cardiologists and cardiac surgeons that have expertise. Part of it, too, is one of our former cardiologists that is a partner of one of our cardiologists here is now in Washington and partners with some of the White House team in electrophysiology. So there are natural connections there. Physicians always want to get outside expertise. So in this case, they did literature review, as well as talked to other physician colleagues around the country to make sure they were doing the right thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the response of the White House?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BLANCHARD: When you get a regular x-ray of an individual, you'll see the peppering. The bird shot metallic density show up like a sore thumb, and yes, they'll show up very well on X-ray. But they don't give you the position in a 3-D fashion that a CAT scan or other modalities would.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is the White House physician in any way involved in this? Isn't this a private matter? Why is the White House involved?
BANKO: The White House physicians treated Mr. Whittington on the ranch and have been involved in some way in his care. Our cardiologists know the physicians that are part of the White House team and feel comfortable talking to them about the case as colleagues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he want to remain here, or does he want to go back to Austin?
BANKO: We've not had those discussions. But it's my understanding as of now he will remain here for the weeklong observation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To get very basic...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it be possible for him to be moved to Austin? (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BANKO: It's always the patient's choice whether -- where they're located. We've not had those discussions with the family. And they've not brought those to our attention.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What time will he be moved to Austin...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What time did you actually notify the White House this morning? And did you tell them when you notified them that he had had a minor heart attack?
BANKO: Our cardiologists probably talked to him shortly after the cardiac cath was done between 9:30 and 10 a.m. this morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you did tell them he had had a minor heart attack?
BANKO: I did not hear the conversation the cardiologists had amongst themselves, so I can't tell you what -- and heart attack is a layman -- a layman's term so they wanted a little bit more clinical detail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you explain in very basic terms how he was sprayed with the bird shot? Did it penetrate through his skin and it's been a slow process of entering into the body and then migrating towards the heart? Can you explain how this happened 72 hours after he was actually sprayed with the bird shot?
BLANCHARD: Well, what happens is when you take the initial injury from bird shot, it does break the skin and to enter. The first 48 to 72 hours are usually the most critical, because until the inflammatory response occurs and the pellets become seated -- not pellets, but bird shot, become seated, we don't know exactly what will happen down the line, if they will shift position.
Ninety-nine point 99 percent are not problematic at all. But it's one problematic bird shot, in this particular case, that we feel has caused the entire problem. And that's what we're monitoring very carefully.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there other bird shot -- is there other bird shot that could migrate?
BLANCHARD: We feel at this point very strongly that all of the other bird shot that is within him are not problematic, and it's only this one that we are concerned about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you -- how many pieces of bird shot are in him?
BLANCHARD: Well, as I said yesterday, it's more than the fingers of one hand but probably less than 150 to 200. Can't say for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know the size of the bird shot?
BANKO: I think they said five millimeters.
BLANCHARD: They're about five millimeters, just like a BB.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you go over one more time what the catheterization process is? Like what does that entail?
BLANCHARD: The cardiac catheterization is when they go in through the groin. They thread up a catheter. They insert a dye into the system under special fluoroscopy (ph) equipment. And you can map and outline the coronary blood supply through all the heart chambers and see if there is any blockage or occlusion and if you have to act appropriately. And he did very well throughout that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So there was no blockage then? It was just that his muscles were...
BANKO: As I said yesterday, his heart looked healthier than mine does.
BLANCHARD: Yes. The BB -- the BB basically has set up irritability and inflammatory changes in an area of the heart which has led to the ischemia or the relative lack of blood flow to that area, hence the silent or minor heart attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you say that again, slowly?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, say that slowly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... stable enough condition to make that trip back to Austin?
BANKO: We've not had those discussions amongst the medical team or families, so I can't comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say that again, Doctor Blanchard. The BB has -- would you please, a little slower? What you just said? The BB has...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For us nonmedical people here.
BLANCHARD: The BB basically has lodged in a certain area causing inflammatory changes. When that occurs, there's irritability to the heart muscle, because the heart is a muscle and it recognizes that there's a foreign body there. And as a result, the chambers of the heart, the two top chambers, not the bottom, were beating irregularly. It's basically like an electrical short circuit, called atrial fibrillation. It is easily treated with medication. It is a nonsurgical type of a condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you -- there's no way that you know the precise location? In other words, during the cardiac catheterization, you were unable to locate the BB? If using x-rays you're unable -- or MRIs, you can't find precisely where it is?
BLANCHARD: Well...
BANKO: We've done ultrasound, CAT scan, and then the cardiac cath. They're all 2-D exams. There's ability to do a 3-D exam. We've got a 64-slice CAT scan. The issue is the bb, because of the radiograph, creates a starring effect. So it's not like you can just see the BB there. You're going to see the BB there. You're going to see the BB and a star, which then creates issues for the cardiologists and radiologist to be able to determine exactly where it is, because it creates a little area around it, so then you can't even -- there's no exam at this point in time that we have available to us that can pinpoint exactly where it is.
QUESTION: Can he live with that in his heart?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. There are tens of thousands of people that go around with shrapnel in their bodies. Bear in mind, the heart is as big as a fist. The pellet -- the BB -- I keep saying pellet. The BB is in that area of this area that's really small. We know the general area that it's in. We know what it's doing.
The answer to the question is, yes. People do very well with shrapnel in their body. Some people can have some problems and difficulty, but certainly that's why we are watching him in a close- observation situation. QUESTION: Could it be fatal? Could that situation ultimately be fatal if that goes through his body and ends up somewhere you don't want it to end up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, the BB is in a fixed position. It is not mobile to the point where it could travel.
QUESTION: Couldn't it travel, doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hypothetical question to which I can't give an answer.
QUESTION: Fair to say this is a serious injury? If the BB went that far in, seems like it would be more of a serious-type wound...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're dealing with an individual that has good coronary arteries. He's 78 years of age. There's always the potential for all kinds of problems. We know that when people are put into the hospital. We have every specialist available to take care and to deal with problems, should they occur. We are very, very optimistic that with Mr. Whittington's strong heart, his personality, his stamina, the will, that he will do very well, and we're prepared to do anything that may develop.
QUESTION: Just in terms of the depth of which these BBs went in. Maybe I misinterpreted you, but it sounded as if it was a lot more superficial. I never really got the sense it was that far...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the human body, not mine, because I'm not a good representation of it, the BB would have to go very far in to get to my heart. Mr. Whittington is in much better shape than I am. The chest cage is a very shallow cavity. It doesn't take much depth to go into a vital area.
QUESTION: Doctor, in the past 48 hours, we've been listening to, you know, he's in great shape, he's healthier than I am, and now, today, we're hearing he's had a heart attack essentially. Can you put that into context as far as this injury? (INAUDIBLE). I mean, it sounds like it just wasn't this spraying and this chicken...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's not had a heart attack in the traditional sense. As we've said before, he was asymptomatic. So when someone -- normally think of a heart attack as crushing chest pain, shoulder pain, not able to bear. He had none of those symptoms. Dr. Blanchard could talk a little bit more about -- heart attack is a layman's term.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we're talking about here basically is a silent heart attack or asymptomatic heart attack. Had we not had the cardiologists and the cardiovascular team actually probing, looking into this particular issue it probably would have never been picked up in the long run. So this is not the heart attack that we think that is due to a blockage that the person is going to collapse and have an arrest, not that type at all. What we're talking about is relative ischemia to a certain area of the heart due to an inflammatory to response to a metallic foreign BB. And that's the type. Bear in mind, Mr. Whittington was asymptomatic at all times, even this morning, when this irregular heart rhythm was picked up. So we felt clearly in his best interest to pursue it much more aggressively by taking him to the cardiac cath lab.
QUESTION: Is the BB actually lodged in the heart muscle, or is it just (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We feel that there's a whole side of inflammation either touching or embedded in an area of the muscle of the heart.
QUESTION: What kind of life of this man going to have after this? I mean, he's 78. He's had, quote/unquote, some kind of heart attack. He's got all these things in them that we don't know how many they are. Will he have to be monitored every week, every month? He's 78. What kind of life is he going to have once he leaves the hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will have the full life that the Lord intended him to have, and this shouldn't affect that one way or the other.
QUESTION: Couldn't this come up at any time, go through his body and kill him in essence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not -- as we said before, it's not moving, and it's not in a position right now that we feel -- the cardiologists do not feel it's going to move. Otherwise, if one of our cardiac surgeons has had experience with this before, and has written a paper on it. He did not feel that it was in a position where it was going to move. If it were in a position where it was going to move, they would have gone in and done surgery immediately. It is not in a position where they think it's going to move any further to endanger his health.
QUESTION: But doesn't he have to be closely monitored.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bear this in mind, we're dealing with a rounded, smooth object. If you're dealing with a piece of glass or an object that has a specular sharpness to it, years down the line, they can burrow through and fistulize and travel. The fact that this is a rounded, solidified BB is an excellent thing in and of itself, and that's why we feel that it should not be a problem in the future barring other complications.
QUESTION: What about a chance of infection from this BB?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well what about it? There's always a chance of infection! But the problem is, we've got him covered from that standpoint. If an infection occur, guess what, we will treat it appropriately! But right now, there's no evidence of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One more question. One more question -- one more question, right here.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: What if you hadn't found this, this morning? What if you hadn't done that procedure, which you said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One last -- this is the last question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, WE would have found it, because we fortunately do daily rounding and more on patients in the hospital, so THAT it would have been picked up. It's not even a plausible scenario that it would not have been picked up --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it, thank you. Thank you.
NGUYEN: All right. You've been listening to Peter Banko, hospital administrator, and David Blanchard, the emergency room chief. They talk about the developments with Harry Whittington, the 78-year- old hunting partner that was accidentally shot by Vice President Dick Cheney. There's been some significant developments today in regards to Mr. Whittington's health. We learned he had a heart irregularity, which when they checked on that, they discovered that birdshot move and became lodged in part of his heart, causing a minor heart attack.
Now, because of that, they had to do a cardiac catherization around 9:00 Eastern -- I should say Central Time this morning, and they're going to continue to monitor Mr. Whittington for another week or so. And we also learned that there's still birdshot that will remain inside him, which will cause him to continue monitoring him for sometime. And the hospital has been, indeed, in contact with the White House and White House physicians about the whole scenario of what's happening and the condition of Harry Whittington.
And as you know, we're going to continue following this as well.
You want to stay tuned to CNN. There's more LIVE FROM coming up right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PETER BANKO, CHRISTUS SPOHN MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: This shot appears to have moved and lodged into his heart, causing what we call atrial fib. Dr. Blanchard will get into the medical pieces of that and it's basically caused him to have a minor heart attack, so we're going to need to monitor him for another week in the hospital, just to make sure that particular bird shot hasn't moved.
We talked before about how there are -- bird shot was left inside him. Some of that has moved. We want to make sure others have not moved, as well as that particular one is stable, before we release him from the hospital.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And there you have it, the latest on our developing story, from just a couple of moments ago. You were listening to Peter Banko, the hospital administrator there in Corpus Christi, Texas where Harry Whittington is recovering after being shot by the vice president with bird shot over the weekend, while he was quail hunting with the vice president. He is in stable condition with wounds to his face, neck, chest and rib cage, but we just learned a moment ago that Mr. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack because a piece of this B.B., this pellet, this bird shot, is lodged very near the heart muscle and caused some kind of inflammation that need to be treated today.
Mr. Whittington will remain in the hospital there in Corpus Christi, Betty, for at least another week for observation.
NGUYEN: And we're going to be monitoring that. We do want to go to CNN's Suzanne Malveaux who has the latest on the White House reaction to this.
Suzanne, we know that doctors in Corpus Christi have been speaking with White House doctors. What are you hearing? What kind of reaction are you getting from what we've just learned that Mr. Whittington has indeed had a minor heart attack because of all of this?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, we have calls and e-mails out to both the White House, as well as the vice president's office, about this particular development. Right now, what is happening is the president visiting, of course, with the NCAA champs, the Texas Longhorns, here at the White House.
He's with his top advisers, as well as the press secretary. So he's been -- BlackBerried McClellan to see if we can get some sort of reaction or comment about it. I have to tell you, Betty, I think that the White House is trying to find the appropriate tone, the way to respond here.
It was earlier today that McClellan actually joked that he was wearing an orange tie not because it was the color the Texas Longhorns, but because he was concerned that Vice President Cheney would be there.
As you know, that is a joke because hunters wear orange -- bright orange -- to alert each other in case they're in the line of fire. Later in the day there was, of course, a briefing, several briefings.
And McClellan, again, asked about some of the details about why it was that it took nearly 24 hours for the public to be notified of what had happened, why it was it took 12 hours before he actually got some of the facts. And it became very clear that this White House is not only trying to change the tone, but also the topic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't want to make this about anything other than what it is. It is what it is, David. I was very respectful and responsive to your questions yesterday. I provided you the information I knew based on the facts that were available.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: And in all fairness to Scott McClellan and the White House, there have been officials who have come forward who say that this is one of those cases of lessons learned. Perhaps we would have done it differently a second time around, but clearly there are still some unanswered questions that they just do not want to go into those details.
One of them, the conversation between the president and the vice president. I asked, is the president satisfied that he learned about the fact that Cheney was the shooter not from Cheney himself but from Karl Rove?
So these are just one of the many questions that have not been addressed. And, again, this White House, learning this information that perhaps the victim here is doing even worse -- Betty.
NGUYEN: And, Suzanne, aside from the time lapse of when the media found out about what indeed had happened on that hunting trip, there's a lot of questions about why isn't the vice president coming out and at least saying something about it? Why won't he make a statement?
MALVEAUX: Well, that's true, and that's something that we've actually really been pushing here, why he won't come forward and say, look, you know, this is what has occurred. This is what has happened. We feel badly about this.
I've spoken within his spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride, several times and she says that the president -- that the vice president, rather, is trying to get the latest information on the condition of Whittington, that they wish him the very best, that they are working with him.
But of course, it is not something that they are coming forward with. The first public appearance that we expect to see Cheney will be on Friday. That's in Wyoming. He'll be before a group of business leaders.
NGUYEN: All right, we'll be listening then. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House for us today. Thank you, Suzanne -- Tony.
HARRIS: OK, quail, cubby, bird shot -- well, it may be a foreign world to you and it may be hard to imagine just how the accident involving the vice president happened. So we sent CNN's Rick Sanchez to observe hunters in action in Sylvester, Georgia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): High brush, a low sun, and a hunter whose position may not be known to others -- the factors said to have contributed to the accidental shooting by Vice President Dick Cheney. It's also what these hunters were thinking about as they set out to hunt quail at the Southern Woods Plantation Preserve in rural Georgia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill, we're going to talk about safety first. SANCHEZ: Hunting guide Jay Tot Tucker (ph) lays down the rules, including this warning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep up. If you find out you're falling behind, get my attention, so you can -- so we'll know where you're at.
SANCHEZ: As they head out into the brush, hunters converge on a cubby of quail they've been led to by hunting dogs. They wait for the guide to signal the dogs to flush them out. They also wait for something else to happen before releasing the safety switch on their shotguns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't hit that safety until the bird takes off.
SANCHEZ: A good shot, not just because it's a hit, but because it was taken following one of the golden rules of quail hunting. Don't make too big a turn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We may go about this far ...
SANCHEZ: Any further and there could be a person, a dog, a vehicle. The move is kept to about 135 degrees, and because quail often fly low to ground, hunters are also warned to ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make sure that the birds -- whenever we do flush the birds that they're this high or higher.
SANCHEZ (on camera): One of the most impressive things as you set out with experienced hunters is you come to realize how many shots they don't take. And there's a reason for that.
(voice-over): These hunters will take home about 50 quail per hunt and pay $500 a day to do so. They take pride in the shots they do take, as well as the shots they pass up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nope.
UNIDENTIFIED: Good call, Wayne (ph).
SANCHEZ (on camera): Why didn't you take that shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was going behind us, right toward the truck.
SANCHEZ: So you didn't take the shot because you were basically pointing it ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew the trucks were behind us.
SANCHEZ: ... toward the camera, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there was no way to take that ...
SANCHEZ: So you would have been shooting Calloway (ph) instead of the bird? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right, and I didn't want to do that.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Calloway is the CNN photographer who was behind the hunter. If Wayne Waters (ph) had taken that shot, Calloway, myself and anything else at a distance of 60 yards would have been in a danger zone, because within that distance, the bird shot still has enough velocity to penetrate the skin.
(on camera): To give you a sense of what the danger zone is, we're going to use a clay target for a demonstration. Go. That's about 60 yards out. That's a danger zone.
(voice-over): Hunters can take precautions and they do. But quail don't always cooperate and when they fly low into a high brush, into a rising or setting sun, or of course toward the hunting party, it can test the skill of even the most experienced hunter. And that is hunters, say when, accidents happen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: OK, I think now we understand -- at least have a better understanding -- of how things should have worked over the weekend in Texas. But because they didn't, Harry Whittington is in a hospital in Corpus Christi recovering from bird shot wounds.
Let's bring in Dr. John Byrne, cardiac surgeon, Vanderbilt University Medical Center. He's on the line with us. Dr. Byrne, good to talk to you.
DR. JOHN BYRNE, CARDIAC SURGEON (on phone): Thank you.
HARRIS: Well, we just had a rather extensive news conference, a briefing, an update on Mr. Whittington's condition where we learned quite surprisingly that Mr. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack but not a classic heart attack. Maybe you can differentiate for us here.
BYRNE: Well, you know, although, of course, I do not know the medical facts, I can imagine that perhaps what happened is that one of the B.B shots lodged in his heart muscle perhaps ...
HARRIS: That's exactly the case.
BYRNE: And in doing so, what happens is that it releases some -- what we call enzymes, heart enzymes, that resemble a heart attack. It's just like if you were getting -- in car accidents, if the person hits their chest up against the steering wheel, the same thing happens.
The heart releases these enzyme, and it looks like a heart attack but it's not your typical heart attack that is caused by coronary blockages. It's more of a traumatic heart attack.
HARRIS: And we did hear that there was a fair bit of inflammation around this impacted area. That's what you would expect, I'm imagining. BYRNE: Yes, that's part of the healing process.
HARRIS: OK.
BYRNE: And so I imagine what happened is that the B.B.s penetrated his heart cavity and lodged in perhaps his right ventricle muscle and then the reaction of the heart and the body is to engage in an inflammation healing process and that's probably what happened.
HARRIS: OK, Dr. Byrne, I want you to listen to a sound bite from one of the spokespersons from the hospital who spoke a short time ago. And then -- I want you to respond to that and then I want to get into this whole issue of this catheterization that was performed, all right? OK, first, the sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DAVID BLANCHARD, EMERGENCY ROOM CHIEF: What happens is, when bird shot is in your body, until the inflammatory changes set in and they're all fibrosed or scar tissued down, there's always the risk that they can move. And one of the things I did say yesterday, of course, is that we'll watch very closely for any migratory changes of this birdshot in the system.
We knew he had some birdshot very close to the heart from the get-go. In point of fact, it now has got to the point where it has caused inflammatory changes and moved into position which caused irritability of the muscle of the heart.
When the muscle of the heart is irritated it does some quivering, there's some irritability. He displayed those signs today in terms of listening to the heart and on the EKG called atrial fibrillation. At that point, we immediately moved him back into the intensive care services, to the trauma section, and called the cardiologist which came in immediately, and evaluated him, that subsequently led to his cardiac cath.
HARRIS: Dr. Byrne, break that down.
BYRNE: It sounds like what happened is that some of the BB shot perhaps lodged into the heart muscle. And that then caused some release of the heart enzymes that made it look like a heart attack. Indeed some of the heart muscle probably was injured and maybe even died.
In the injury process, the scarring occurred, and then when scarring occur, the heart can have abnormal heart rhythms. And that is probably what you are seeing, an abnormal heart rhythm is a response to the scarring.
HARRIS: How about the catheterization? What is that procedure and why was it performed?
BYRNE: Cardiac catherization is a process by which cardiologists pass small catheters typically from the femeral arteries, the arteries in the groin, up into the coronary artery, that is the arteries that feed the heart muscle itself, and inject contrast material to outline those blood vessels to see if there's any blockages in them.
Typically, cardiac catheterization is done for someone such as Vice President Cheney, who has known coronary artery disease. It is done for someone who we think has blockages. In this particular case, it is done to see if any of the BBs -- I think, might be close to the coronary arteries, that it's the -- if these BBs are close to the coronary arteries that might be cause of the arrhythmia.
HARRIES: Got you. Give me one more quick question. Talk about the prognosis moving forward. Could this pellet still, in fact, move? We understand they're keeping Mr. Whittington in the hospital for another week for observation.
BYRNE: I'd say the pellet test -- you know it might move not only from the heart muscle near a coronary artery, but also there might be unrelated coronary artery disease superimposed.
The guy is 78, so he might end up having garden variety coronary disease and it may be unrelated. The pellet can migrate from the muscle, near the coronary artery, cause arrhythmia's, it can actually migrate into the heart cavity itself. Then you could get -- it could go downstream and -- into the rest of the circulation. We call that a migratory embolism.
HARRIS: So it makes sense to keep him for observation. Doctor Byrne, cardiac surgeon, Vanderbilt University Medical Center. Dr. Byrne thanks for you time. We appreciate it.
We'll take a break. More LIVE FROM right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Once again, we're continuing to follow the story, this developing story this afternoon, out of a Corpus Christi hospital, where Harry Whittington is recovering after being shot by Vice President Cheney with birdshot while the men were quail hunting over the weekend.
Whittington, 78 years old is out of intensive care and in stable condition with wounds to his face, neck, chest. We've learned inside the hour that Mr. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack.
It appears a piece of bird shot, a pellet, lead pellet, lodged near a piece of the heart muscle and caused some inflammation and irritation, which subsequently led to a mild heart attack. A cardiac catheterization was performed. Mr. Whittington will remain in the hospital for another week for observation.
We will continue to follow the developments and the latest information with Mr. Whittington.
Vice President Cheney's hunting incident prompted us to ask how come there aren't more hunting accidents in Texas? Here's a look at the facts.
The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department says 570,000 Texans have been certified in hunter education since 1972. However, the total number of hunting accidents in the state has gone down steadily since hunter education became a mandatory law in 1988.
Since then there have not been more than 81 indents in any given year. In 2004, there were only 29 total hunting accidents. Four were fatal.
Most accidents happen to hunters who are white males around the age of 27 with more than ten years of hunting experience and who are not under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time. The accidents also seem to happen around dusk when the hunter is fatigued.
Guns aren't the only cause of accidents. Drowning, exposure to cyanide bait and falling off a ladder or tree stand have caused either injury or death to hunters.
And we will go live to the hospital in Corpus Christi, Texas straight ahead. The news keeps coming, we'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM next.
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