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20th Hijacker Testifies to Role in 9/11 Attacks; Top Shia Leader Sounds off on Iraq Situation; Bush Oversees Naturalization Ceremony; Religious Leaders Weigh in on Afghan Convert's Plight

Aired March 27, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kyra Phillips.
Our top story right now, Zacarias Moussaoui, and shoe bomb convict Richard Reid, a two-man terror team bent on Attacking the White House on 9/11? So says Moussaoui in court testimony his lawyers begged him now to give.

Let's get straight to CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena at the Moussaoui sentencing trial in Alexandria, Virginia.

I'm assuming that everybody's mouths dropped.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, this is the most stunning court testimony I have ever heard in my life, and in one hour Zacarias Moussaoui managed to undo what his defense team has been working on for four and a half years, Kyra, no joke.

Let's go through some of the highlights here. He said that he knew that the plan -- that there was a plan that involved hijacking two planes that would be headed for the World Trade Center towers.

He says that he recognized more than a dozen of the hijackers, that he didn't know that they were in the United State, but he knew them by face and that he knew that Mohammed Atta was, in his words, "big time."

He says that he, along with Richard Reid, as you said -- now viewers might remember him as the shoe bomber, the so-called shoe bomber -- was supposed to fly a fifth plane into the White House as part of the entire 9/11 operation.

He says that he lied to interrogators just so that the plan could go forward. He said that his goal was to kill Americans. He said he did not know the exact date of the attacks and any of the specifics beyond the fact that those two planes were headed for the towers and, of course, what he was supposed to do, Kyra.

As you said, his defense attorneys tried desperately to keep him off the stand, beforehand appealing to the judge by saying that because Moussaoui had shown no respect for the court, did not recognize its authority and because he was a member of al Qaeda and, as such could lie, that they couldn't count on his testimony, that he would not be a credible witness.

Of course, the judge overruled that and said no, if we were willing to accept his signature on the statement of facts when he pled guilty, then -- and he's said that he wants to testify, we should hear from him today, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So Kelli, let me ask you, all this incredible jaw-dropping testimony, but I'm curious. At any time did he mention Osama bin Laden? If he's so connected and so in the know, did he mention any type of tight relationship with Osama bin Laden or did he just sort of take credit for all this?

ARENA: No, no, no. He said -- first of all he said that he wasn't a big shot in al Qaeda. He described himself as an intermediary. He described that he used to run a guest house and drive people back and forth. And that's how he knew most of the hijackers, because he had recognized them from Afghanistan or being at the guest house.

He says that he did have meetings with Osama bin Laden, that he told him about a dream that he had to fly a plane into the White House. He said that most of the time, though, he communicated with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and he served as an intermediary for, you know, checking in on his plans and so on and asking for money and so on and so forth. But he did not portray himself as a planner of 9/11 or as -- or as a big shot within al Qaeda.

PHILLIPS: What about family members in the courtroom? Were they just...

ARENA: Kyra, they -- first of all, you could physically see the minute he walked up there everybody, everybody in that courtroom moved forward, you know, to make sure that they heard everything that he said.

Family members were sitting right in front of my row. They were just -- you could see their mouths were just open. I mean, there have been many times during this trial where it's very hot in the courtroom, you know, testimony goes on forever. You see people dozing off, not paying attention. All eyes were glued to this man, and they were just in -- they were just in shock.

Their faces were just like -- listening because here is this al Qaeda operative, very calmly going through, 'Oh, yes, this is how we ran a guest house" and "Oh, yes, I was talking to Osama bin Laden" and "Oh, yes, my goal was to kill Americans. That's why I wanted to do this."

It was -- it was fascinating.

PHILLIPS: Amazing. Kelli Arena, I know we'll be talking about this a lot throughout the day. Thanks so much.

Let's bring in former New York City prosecutor Paul Callan now. He's on the phone with more on these stunning developments from the Moussaoui trial.

Paul, I'm wondering, do you think that Moussaoui was just in the mindset of: "You know what? I'm done either way, whether it's life in prison or the death penalty. I'm just going let it all out"?

PAUL CALLAN, FORMER NEW YORK CITY PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think there's a lot of that going on. Obviously, Moussaoui understand he's facing life in prison and that this is his one opportunity to get a message out to the world about his political cause.

I do think also that many people will look at Moussaoui and say, "This guy's mentally unbalanced and that's why he didn't listen to his lawyers." I mean, let's face it, this was a guy who maybe had a reasonable chance not to get the death penalty, and he's just burying himself by taking the stand and telling these bizarre stories.

PHILLIPS: Complete disaster for the defense.

CALLAN: An absolute unmitigated disaster for the defense. Those defense attorneys, their stomachs must be churning at this point in time just watching this train wreck in process.

PHILLIPS: So what do his attorney dos now? I mean, do they just toss in the towel and say, "Well, that's it"?

CALLAN: Well, they won't -- they won't toss in the towel. As a matter of fact, what they'll try to do is they'll try to turn this around in front of the jury, to say that this is a demonstration that Moussaoui has severe mental problems and that he should be treated in a more lenient way. That's really the only...

PHILLIPS: Lost our connection with Paul Callan there, former prosecutor. Of course, we'll continue to follow those incredible developments out of the Moussaoui trial. We'll talk more with Kelli Arena and probably Paul Callan without -- throughout the next hour or two.

President Bush called it a success story, but the Tal Afar region in northern Iraq is no safe haven from deadly attacks. Our Nic Robertson has the latest on that and on his exclusive interview with one of Iraq's most powerful politicians.

Nic, it was just last week that we were talking about this region, the president pumping it in his speech as a success story, and now we're reporting quite a different story.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Kyra. About 30 kilometers from the town of Tal Afar, a small base, Kissik (ph), was the site of this insurgent attack.

Just outside that base there was a mobile army recruiting center, an Iraqi mobile Army recruiting center. It appears there have been a collection of tents. There were young men lining up to join the Iraqi army when about the middle of the day today a suicide bomber walked up with a vest full of explosives, detonated those explosives.

Now, according to the Iraqi military, 40 people were killed. The U.S. Military says 30 dead, 30 people wounded. We know that there were no U.S. casualties, but U.S. troops were on the scene very quickly administering first aid. But it appears that the insurgents have chosen this mobile recruitment center as a soft option, an easy option to attack, because it doesn't appear to have had any of these sort of hard concrete protection structures around it that you would normally find at a recruiting center or at a military base, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Now tell me about your interview with Shiite cleric Hakim on the sectarian violence and what he had to say?

ROBERTSON: Well, Kyra, he's probably one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful Shia politician in the country at the moment. I told you about Iran. He wants the U.S. to engage in talks with Iran about what Iran can do to help Iraq, because he believes that the Iranians can offer economic help, can offer security help to stabilize the situation in Iraq. He thinks they have a lot of intelligence assets that could be used to defeat terrorism in Iraq.

I also talked to him about the sectarian nature of a lot of the attacks at the moment, and I asked him what -- essentially what did does he see as the problems with these sectarian attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: There's been an increase in sectarian violence. Is the sectarian violence now worse than the insurgency?

ABDUL AZIZ-AL-HAKIM, SHIA PARTY LEADER (through translator): The religious extremists and Saddam loyalists who are launching sectarian genocide campaigns against the Shiites and anyone who believes in the political process and wants to be a part of it.

ROBERTSON: A lot of Sunnis believe that the interior ministry that's being run by a member of your party is operating death squads to target Sunnis. This is part, they believe, of the sectarian violence. What can you do to stop that?

AL-HAKIM (through translator): This is not true, and it was denied by the interior minister more than one time. There are terrorist groups who infiltrated Iraq's security forces, and they are trying to move under the cover of some official departments. There are about 33 organized forces inside the country where we can say there are 33 militias.

ROBERTSON: After the attack on the Samarra shrine there was a wave of attacks on Sunni mosques, and Shias were blamed for that. Are you worried that they're there could be another incident that could inflame sectarian tensions to the point of bringing civil war?

AL-HAKIM (through translator): Of course. The attack in Samarra was similar to what happened on 9/11 in the U.S. It was a very big crime that shocked all Iraqis, Sunni and Shiite. Afterwards, the attacks on the Mosques by the people who thought the mosques were supporting Sunni religious extremists were not planned, but it happened spontaneously.

ROBERTSON: How difficult? Could you control the streets? Could it break out into civil war? We see the tensions in Baghdad on the streets of Baghdad much higher, tit for tat killings, communities, people moving between communities because they don't feel safe, Sunnis moving out of Shia communities. Shias moving out of Sunni communities.

AL-HAKIM (through translator): It will be much more difficult to control than before. For three years we've been bearing the slaughtering, killing, explosions, attacking of our scholars, our mosques, our facilities, our pilgrims, our barbers, our bakers, our innocents. We're always speaking to people to restrain themselves and to calm down.

ROBERTSON: Do you see a sectarian shift in Baghdad, people moving from neighborhoods? Do you see these divisions here beginning to establish themselves in the communities?

AL-HAKIM (through translator): This is true and clear in some regions. There are thousands of Shiite families and some Sunni families, as well, moving from one region to another. It's part of the agenda of the next government to move those displaced families back home and to protect them. It is the aim of the Sunni extremists to take the community into sectarian strife and lead them to civil war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Well, Kyra, that's what he was telling me about sectarian violence. I talked to him about forming a government. He thinks that's still quite a long process. Right now they're just talking about procedure, not even about who's going to get some of those top ministerial jobs, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So he also thinks that Iran could play a role here?

ROBERTSON: Oh, absolutely. Remember, he was in exile under Saddam Hussein's regime in Iran. He spent a lot of time there. A lot of the people in his party have, as well. A lot of Iraq's top politicians, indeed, spent time in exile in Iran. They think Iran is a friend of the Iraqi people and thinks it can play a role. Absolutely.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson, live from Baghdad. Thanks, Nic.

A message from jail before she heads to court. Mary Winkler, accused of killing her minister husband, is set to make her first court appearance next hour in Selmer, Tennessee. She was arrested in Alabama on Thursday. Her three daughters in tow are now with their dead father's parents. Their mother is behind bars and telling a family friends she's, quote, "sorry" for everything she's done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM KILLINGSWORTH, WINKLER FAMILY FRIEND: It was a very emotional meeting, seeing Mary for the first time after all of this have happened. She looked very well. She said she had been well taken care of, that everybody had treated her better than really what she had deserved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: The friend told CNN the minister's wife didn't say why her husband of ten years was shot. Again, CNN plans to follow Mrs. Winkler's court hearing live next hour. So stay tuned.

He wants to be a Christian, but his faith could cost him his life. Is there a miracle in Abdul Rahman's future?

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Thirty down only about 11 million to go. President Bush spoke at naturalization ceremonies for 30 new U.S. citizens on another day of street protests over attempts by the White House and Congress to reform immigration law. Mr. Bush wants a guest worker program that would let illegal immigrants stay in the U.S. if they have jobs until the jobs they're doing are done.

CNN's Ed Henry has more now from the White House.

Ed, it's incredible. These protests are all over the country.

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra. And what we're really seeing the president do is try to find a way to get the Senate over the course of the next two weeks in their floor debate over this whole matter, find a way to moderate the house bill that has really sparked all those protests because critics think it's way too stringent.

And the president kicked off this lobbying effort this morning, a speech here in Washington at that naturalization ceremony, welcoming new citizens to the United State.

And the president's message there was directed right to Republicans on Capitol Hill, trying to use that setting to say, "Look, there has to be middle ground here. There has to be a way to celebrate those who are playing by the rules and becoming citizens, but also find some way to treat humanely the people, nearly 12 million illegal immigrants who are already here."

Take a listen to the president's pitch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATE: I've laid out a proposal for comprehensive immigration reform that includes three critical elements: securing the border, strengthening immigration enforcement inside our country, and creating a temporary worker program. These elements depend on and reinforce one other, and together they will give America an immigration system that meets the needs of the 21st Century.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: It's going to be extremely difficult, a real balancing act there to meet all of those different desires from the president. In fact, White House press secretary Scott McClellan just a few minutes ago was asked whether or not the president would veto legislation that leaves out that guest worker program that doesn't really deal with those nearly 12 million illegal immigrants.

But McClellan said it's too early in the process, basically ducked that question. But it just shows just how difficult it's going to be to navigate the president's way through this matter -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So how does he plan on doing that? How can he sell other Republicans on this worker program?

HENRY: Well, he's going to try to reach out, obviously, to the Hill, but there are a lot of question marks coming out of the Dubai ports deal as to whether or not the president has enough political capital and gets something like this done, whether or not he has enough allies on the Republican side that he can really reach out to.

You can see right now this is an issue that has really split the Republican Party down the middle. There are some very senior Republicans in town who are betting that at the end of all of this debate nothing ever actually gets to the president's desk on immigration reform. That would, you know, possibly be another legislative defeat for this president at a time when you really needs some victories, given his standing in the polls, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Side note. Today's the first day of your new gig there, White House correspondent. How was it? Impressions? Difficult?

HENRY: It's great. More awesome than I ever thought, you know. It's fantastic. It's obviously an honor to be here, and it -- you know, it's awesome just to take it all in.

PHILLIPS: Well, what's the difference between working the Hill and working the White House?

HENRY: It's just another white building behind me, you know. You know, in all seriousness, it's -- you know, it's the awesome power of the White House and all around the world. And you have to pay close attention to it, but you also still have to ask tough questions whether you're on the Hill or you're at the White House, Pentagon, any beat here in Washington and anywhere around the world. And I think we'll do the same.

PHILLIPS: Well, we expect to see you in that briefing room raising hell, no doubt.

HENRY: Thanks.

PHILLIPS: Ed Henry, live from the White House, thanks.

Well, convert or criminal? Abdul Rahman has been called both and put on trial for his life in his native Afghanistan. Now Afghan and western sources say Rahman could soon be freed, and the Associated Press reports the U.N. says he's seeking asylum outside of Afghanistan.

That's not sitting well on the home front, though. Even after the Taliban, becoming Christian, renouncing Islam, is a capital offense under Afghanistan's Islamic laws. Rahman's cause triggered outrage in the outside world, especially in the U.S. Today about a thousand Afghans rallied against Rahman, chanting, "Death to America."

East and west, Islam and Christianity, Quran and constitution, one man's conversion unleashes a storm of conflicts, some new, some age old. Let's take a broader look. From the National Association of Evangelicals, the Reverend Ted Haggard joins us live from Colorado Springs, Colorado, and from Washington Imam Yahya Hendi, Muslim chaplain at Georgetown University.

Great to have you both with us.

IMAM YAHYA HENDI, MUSLIM CHAPLAIN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Thank you for having us.

REV. TED HAGGARD, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EVANGELICALS: Thank you, good to see you again.

PHILLIPS: Good to see you.

Imam, I want to start with you. And in looking at the constitution there in Afghanistan, because it's very confusing when you take a look at this case. Article Two in the constitution says that followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provisions of law. So you read that and you think Abdul Rahman has a right to be a Christian.

HENDI: I do believe Abdul Rahman has the right to be a Christian or choose any religion he wants. And I disagree with the statement that Afghanistan law is an Islamic law, because in Islam people have the right to choose the faith they feel comfortable with, whether it's Islam, Christianity Judaism, Buddhism or any other faith.

And therefore, I believe not only Afghan is, every human being has the right to choose the faith they want to choose and I'm speaking in light of the teachings of Islamic law.

PHILLIPS: Now, some would say, but Islamic law is Sharia law and so, therefore, as a judge, I have the right to exercise Sharia law. Is that true, and can that override the constitution?

HENDI: Well, I guess we need to define Sharia law. There is something in Islam called the Objectives of Law. Islamic Sharia law has five objectives, the first of which is to save God and to protect the right of every citizen of any state that choose his or her faith.

And therefore, those who speak in the name of Sharia law and have yet to prevent people from choosing their faith are violating Sharia law.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. It's just amazing just the matter of interpretation.

Reverend Haggard, when I think of the Christian perspective I think of John 8:32, that says, "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

Then you look at the Quran, OK, 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clear from error."

Of course, I'm trying to translate the best I can through various web sites that we have. But are we talking about...

HENDI: You are doing very well.

PHILLIPS: OK, good. I appreciate -- thank you, Imam.

But Reverend, aren't we talking about the same God and the same belief in truth here?

HAGGARD: Well, no. We Christians don't believe that. Most evangelicals, Christians, believe that there is a difference in spiritual entities and people do worship different spiritual entities.

But where we do have common ground here in the west is we believe that people need to be able to worship according to their own conscience. And we, as evangelical Christians, and I think the more globalized Islamic people, appreciate that and want to advocate that.

And so of course, we are for this man in Afghanistan being able to go to a mosque if he chooses to or a temple if he chooses to or a church if he chooses to. So it's horrible, from our world view, for the state to say that if you don't worship the way your parents worshipped then you're subject to a capital offense.

And so we certainly want this man to be able to worship according to his own conscience, just like we would defend anybody else being able to worship with their own conscience.

PHILLIPS: Yes, go ahead, Imam.

HENDI: I fully agree with the Reverend that people have the right to choose their own faith. At the same time I do believe that Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the very same God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

PHILLIPS: Interesting, and Reverend, you don't agree with that?

HAGGARD: No, I don't agree with that. And I think the personality -- or the evidences of the spiritual entities are showing themselves right now in Arabic countries.

We're having a horrible, horrible problem with civil liberties, with freedom of the press, with all kind of issues. And there's just this rabid hatred that seems so strong. And, of course, they view the same thing about us.

But there are different spiritual entities here that people are dealing with, and they have to work that out. And that's why people like the Georgetown chaplain that you've got right now and so many others are so helpful in this effort. So we can talk about this and work with it. So hopefully we'll be able to live in a more peaceful world as the years go by.

PHILLIPS: Reverend, you are outspoken about this, passionate about this issue, but I've been very surprised that we haven't seen more Christian leaders in this country speaking out about this.

HAGGARD: Well, there are 480 martyrs a day worldwide, and many of them are in positions where there's a clash with Islam, either in northern Nigeria or Pakistan or some place like that, because in a country that's dominated by Islam they do have difficulty with dealing with the issue of the majority protecting the rights of the majority -- of the minority.

And so we Christians deal with this, just as Muslims deal with this in some sections of the world. And we're on a process.

It's just that this particular case has captured the attention of the press, and we appreciate that. And we think it highlights the issue of trying to advance democracy and some democratic reforms and some enlightened ideas in sections of the world that haven't embraced this in the past.

PHILLIPS: Imam Hendi, you're getting ready to go over there, right? You're very concerned about this.

HENDI: Actually, yes. I offered my help to the State Department, with nine imams from Europe and America, to go into Afghanistan to help free the man and give him the choice of his own -- to choose the religion he wants. However, finally, I think the guy was freed and I'm very happy for that.

Again, I want to speak to the reverend that my problem with his statement is that he does not differentiate between the act of some Muslims who may violate their own faith and the teachings of the faith itself.

Islam teaches he who chooses to believe has the right to believe, and he who chooses not to believe has the right not to believe. If Muslims violate the teachings of their own faith, that is the problem with Muslims and not Islam. Christians make mistakes all of the time. We should not blame Christianity for it.

HAGGARD: Sure.

HENDI: We should not blame Christianity for what is happening in Ireland now. We should not blame Christianity for the crusades or the inquisition.

PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Reverend. HAGGARD: Well, I think it is true, there is the difference between the fundamentals of the faith and the way people act it out and try to interpret it and things like that. And I think every faith community has the responsibility to submit themselves to the judgment of the world and the judgment within their own group.

And we try to do that within Christianity and I appreciate the comments here. And I certainly appreciate the imam going to the Middle East and working on behalf of this person. That is the hope of the world, that this type of process go forward amongst the Christians and the Muslims. And I think -- I think we're headed in the right direction.

And I want to express from the National Association of Evangelicals my appreciation for you going to the Middle East and working on behalf of this man. From what I understand, charges have been dropped, but he has not been released.

PHILLIPS: Right. We have not actually seen him go free yet. That's what we are actually waiting to see.

HAGGARD: Yes. So your role is very, very important there, and it's important for other enlightened Muslims to do all they can to help secure freedom for people all around the world.

HENDI: In the last four days I spoke with imams in the Arab world, in Europe and in the United State, and all are united behind this man to choose the faith he wants to choose.

PHILLIPS: Imam Hendi we look forward to talking with you when you return from Afghanistan.

HENDI: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Reverend Haggard, we thank you for your time. Appreciate both of you very much.

HAGGARD: Thank you.

HENDI: Thank you.

HAGGARD: Appreciate it.

PHILLIPS: If you drive you've noticed gas prices are creeping back up. What's up with that? We're going to find out when LIVE FROM continues.

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