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Moussaoui Takes Stand at Sentencing Trial; A Step Back in Iraq?; Minister's Wife Appears in Court

Aired March 27, 2006 - 13:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: At the top of the hour we're talking about that he wanted to testify, said he waited for years to testify, and was told by the judge he has an absolute right to testify. And boy has Zacarias Moussaoui testified.
The admitted al Qaeda terrorist defied his lawyers and took the stand in his death sentence trial. And we'll leave the jaw-dropping details to CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena at the courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the most stunning court testimony I have ever heard in my life. And in one hour, Zacarias Moussaoui managed to undo what his defense team has been working on for four and a half years, Kyra, no joke. Let's go through some of the highlights here.

He said that he knew that the plan -- that there was a plan that involved hijacking two planes that would be headed for the World Trade Center towers. He says that he recognized more than a dozen of the hijackers, that he didn't know that they were in the United States, but he knew them by face, and that he knew that Mohamed Atta was, in his words, "big-time."

He says that he, along with Richard Reid, as you said -- and our viewers might remember him as the shoe bomber, the so-called shoe bomber -- was supposed to fly a fifth plane into the White House as part of the entire 9/11 operation. He says that he lied to interrogators just so that the plan could go forward. He said that his goal was to kill Americans. He said he did not know the exact date of the attacks and any of the specifics beyond the fact that those two planes were headed for the towers, and of course what he was supposed to do, Kyra.

As you said, his defense attorneys tried desperately to keep him off the stand, beforehand appealing to the judge saying that, because Moussaoui had shown no respect for the court, did not recognize its authority, and because he was a member of al Qaeda, and as such, could lie, that we couldn't count on his testimony, that he would not be a credible witness. Of course, the judge overruled that, said, no, if we were willing to accept his signature on the statement of facts when he pled guilty, then -- and he's said that he wants to testify, we should hear from him today -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So, Kelli, let me ask you, all this incredible jaw-dropping testimony, but I'm curious, at any time did he mention Osama bin Laden?

ARENA: Oh, yes.

PHILLIPS: If he is so connected and so in the know, did he mention any type of tight relationship with Osama bin Laden, or did he just sort of take credit for all this?

ARENA: No, no, no. He said -- first of all, he said that he wasn't a big shot in al Qaeda. He described himself as an intermediary.

He described that he used to run a guest house and drive people back and forth and that's how he knew most of the hijackers, because he had recognized them from Afghanistan or being at the guest house. He says that he did have meetings with Osama bin Laden, that he told him about a dream that he had to fly a plane into the White House.

He said that most of the time, though, he communicated with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and he served as an intermediary for when -- you know, checking in on his plans and so on and asking for money and so on and so forth. So -- but he did not portray himself as a planner of 9/11 or as a -- or as a big shot within al Qaeda.

PHILLIPS: What about family members in the courtroom? Were they just...

ARENA: Kyra, they -- first of all, you could physically see the minute he walked up there everybody -- everybody in that courtroom moved forward, you know, to make sure that they heard everything that he said. Family members were sitting right in front of my row. They were just -- you could see their mouths were just open.

I mean, there have been many times during this trial where it's very hot in the courtroom, you know, testimony goes on forever, you see people dozing off, you know, not paying attention. All eyes were glued to this man. And they were just -- they were just in shock. Their faces were just like, you know, listening, because here is this al Qaeda operative, very calmly going through -- oh, yes, this is how we ran a guest house. And, oh, yes, I was talking to Osama bin Laden. And, oh, yes, my goal was to kill Americans. That's why I wanted to do this.

I mean, it was -- it was fascinating!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, former New York City prosecutor Paul Callan joins me now live with his take on today's revelations.

We heard what Kelli Arena said. Fascinating.

What's your take, Paul?

PAUL CALLAN, FMR. NYC PROSECUTOR: Oh, it's astounding testimony. I mean, this is suicide on the witness stand. Prosecutors had a very difficult case. They were going to have a very difficult time getting the death penalty imposed, because they were not able to link his terrorist acts with the death of an American. And now he's taken the witness stand, linked himself directly to the 9/11 terrorists and linked himself directly to not one, but probably more than 2,000 deaths, those deaths that occurred at the World Trade Center. So he's really destroyed his own case.

PHILLIPS: And a number of people coming out and just saying, well, he's completely insane, it doesn't surprise -- surprise us that he would do this. But why do you think he would take advantage of this moment? Is this sort of the last public moment in public that he has?

CALLAN: It is his last public moment. He knows that the whole world is watching this trial. He knows everybody is going to be listening to this testimony. So it gives him an opportunity to make a political statement to the world.

But I think, Kyra, what's been very interesting about it is, his statement really isn't a political statement in the sense that he's advocating the goals of al Qaeda. He seems to be revealing the details of his involvement as a terrorist. So that makes this testimony just really astounding and very, very foolish on his part.

PHILLIPS: Could this testimony lead to anything else, any other individuals, any other convictions? Could it help in any way?

CALLAN: Well, as other terrorists are apprehended, any detail that he reveals with respect to the scope of the conspiracy might be used in the trial of other participants in the conspiracy. So, yes, there is a possibility that this testimony will be helpful in future prosecutions.

PHILLIPS: What do his lawyers do now besides bite off all their fingernails?

CALLAN: You know, this is the worst possible situation that a defense lawyer can ever be in. Obviously, these lawyers knew all along that if he took the witness stand, it was going to be a train wreck. It's now happened. There is very little they can do, except maybe to say to the jury in the end, he's mentally unbalanced and you should not put him to death.

PHILLIPS: Well, what do you think is going to happen?

CALLAN: I -- you know, originally I thought it was going to be a very, very difficult time in getting the death penalty in this case. Now I would be very surprised if the jury did not administer the death penalty. I think he's looking at a death penalty and his only hope for survival now will be in the appellate courts.

PHILLIPS: Do you think there's a possibility he could be making any of this up?

CALLAN: Most of it sounds detailed enough to me that it's not being made up. Remember, everybody always thought that he was involved with the 9/11 terrorists. He took flying lessons at two different flight schools. So we know he was a participant.

He's giving detailed testimony now. So I don't think he is making it up. I think he's just revealing his true involvement in this terrible conspiracy.

PHILLIPS: Former New York City prosecutor Paul Callan.

Thanks, Paul.

CALLAN: Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: Great to have you.

The big story in Iraq today isn't so much what happened but where. A suicide bomber killed at least 30 people near the city of Tal Afar at a security forces recruitment center. Now, days ago, President Bush painted a much different picture of Tal Afar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The gains we and the Iraqis have made -- and that is in the northern city of Tal Afar. The city was once under al Qaeda control. And thanks to coalition and Iraqi forces, the terrorists have now been driven out of that city.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: So, has a big step forward in the fight for Iraq taken a big step back? We're joined now by a familiar face, Jane Arraf with the Council on Foreign Relations. But she was CNN's Baghdad bureau chief.

OK, for the record, because I never know, the president is from Texas, I'm from the Midwest. Tal Afar or Tal Afar?

JANE ARRAF, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, if we want to be really authentic, it would be Tal Afar.

PHILLIPS: Tal Afar. OK. I will try and take note of that. All right.

We heard what the president said. He was praising what was happening in this area. Now all of a sudden we see this attack. What's the deal?

ARRAF: Well, they are really keen to point to progress, obviously. And there has been progress in Tal Afar. I've been there quite a lot with the troops during one of the battles to root out the insurgents. But this attack that we saw is actually outside the city, between Mosul and Tal Afar, and it's an attack that's really quite easy do.

It was apparently a guy with explosives strapped to himself who walked into a recruitment center. So when you take Tal Afar itself, I mean, one of the most complex areas in Iraq, and it's an indication of what happens when you don't have a lot of troops.

There were no U.S. troops there. Insurgents came in. U.S. forces went in with Iraqi forces a couple of times, actually managed to root them out and left Iraqi forces in place.

So it has stabilized quite a lot. But the story behind the story is that a lot of those Iraqi soldiers are still Kurdish.

And it's a Sunni town. And not just a Sunni town, it's Turkmen, which is basically a minority within a minority. Just an indication of how complicated this fight is.

PHILLIPS: But wasn't there a lot of cooperation on behalf of the Sunnis in this region and that's why it was going pretty well?

ARRAF: What I saw on the ground was absolutely amazing. For the first time I think I was actually seeing people from the tribes go and be informants, working with American forces. But that was because the tribes had been drawn in to that battle because they were being attacked.

And yes, they are a Sunnis, but I think we have to remember that they are Turkmen, which means a minority in a minority that has essentially always looked to the United States for protection. So like a lot of other things in Iraq, I think we really are desperately wanting to see progress, and there is progress, but I don't think we should exaggerate that part of it.

PHILLIPS: You're saying desperation for American security. But you are saying now this area is flooded with Iraqi forces. So is there that same type of feeling, that sense of security, whether it be American or Iraqi forces?

ARRAF: This is the problem. You'd think with Iraqi forces there we could say, well, that's great, Iraqi forces are there, we've got, as we keep officials -- as we hear officials keep saying, 130 battalions, they're going to take over more and more territory. But you've really got to look at who these Iraqi forces are.

And more importantly, do they have the support of the Iraqi people? And in large areas of the country that's still the essential problem.

In Baghdad, this wave of violence we've seen, this isn't just insurgents anymore. This is -- these are people that a lot of Iraqis believe are sponsored by their own government, militias connected to Iraqi political parties. And that's the really worrying thing.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about this audiotape allegedly made by Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Saddam's right-hand man, still at large. You listened to it. What did it reveal? What's your take?

ARRAF: Well, they haven't proved yet that it actually is him, but it sounds like him. I have had to, being in Baghdad for years under Saddam, listen to a lot of these speeches, as you might imagine. And this one is really interesting, because here is a guy who is really the last remaining big target they're looking for on that deck of cards.

Apart from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the last of Saddam's entourage. He was the right-hand man, he's thought to be in ill health.

He sounds feeble on the tape. But what he's doing is reaching out to the Arab League, which about to meet, and saying, don't recognize the Iraqi government, boycott them, they do not speak for the Iraqi people, the insurgency does.

And it's an indication of how much room there is to fragment popular support. And it's essentially a fight for the soul of Iraq.

I mean, who is the real Iraqi government? Who are real Iraqis? That's what he's latching on to in what appears to be his first recording since he basically went into hiding.

PHILLIPS: Jane Arraf, always great to have you.

ARRAF: It's really great to see you in person, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Likewise.

Well, married for 10 years, wife of a minister, mother of three girls. Today Mary Winkler is also an accused, supposedly a confessed murder. The victim, her husband. And in just a few minutes, we expect to see Mrs. Winkler in court in a town still stunned by what happened.

Our Rusty Dornin joins us now from Selmer, Tennessee.

Rusty, what are they expecting to happen this afternoon?

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, the arraignment is scheduled to get under way at 2:30 Eastern. We're still awaiting the family members of either Mary Winkler or her husband, Matthew Winkler, to arrive here at the courthouse.

Now, remember, she confessed to police that she planned on killing her husband. That's why she's charged with premeditated murder. But her attorney is saying, look, we're not admitting to anything and is saying that she will plead not guilty in court today.

So we're expecting a not guilty plea. That's probably all that's going to be happening today.

Right now, there are some church members that are in court here that have been waiting. Of course this community has been stunned by this whole affair -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Now let's talk about the community. Give us a sense of how it's reacting to this crime, reacting to Winkler. Of course, so many people still wanting to know why she did it.

DORNIN: That's right. And they'd only lived here for about a year, so not that many people knew them well. But certainly the church members have closed ranks. Their deacon has asked them not to talk to anyone about what they think might have been the motivation. Of course, in the rest of the community, a lot of speculation.

I have myself heard some pretty wild rumors about what happened. And I was asking people, now, look, were any of these rumors going on before Matthew Winkler was killed? And they said, no, just in the last couple of days, all these things seem to be coming to the surface.

So most people are expecting that it's going to take court papers to discover exactly what the motive was, because police right now are not revealing that. They say they know the motive but they are not coming forward with it.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. All right, Rusty. We're going to take that arraignment live. So we'll be talking again.

Rusty Dornin, thanks so much.

What to do about America's growing population of illegal immigrants? Everyone seems to have an opinion.

We're seeing protests across the country today. Here is a live look at one in Los Angeles.

So what's Congress going to do about it? A heated debate on the Hill. We're going to go to Washington for the latest next.

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you.

You're watching LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, we're seeing these protests all across the country today. This is a live look at one of those protests in Los Angeles, California.

So what's Congress going to do about it? A heated debate going on right now on the Hill. One bill pitches legal status for undocumented workers, another would make it a felony to sneak across the border. And in the election year pressure, well, and you can see why immigration reform is a hot-button issue right now at the moment.

Our Dana Bash running down all the details there on the Hill.

You know, Dana, you were a producer for six years on the Hill. You know this has been a hot issue. Now we're seeing these protests all around the country. It's not really surprising, is it?

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not really surprising at all. And most recently, obviously, I was over at the White House. And that is really the issue.

The big issue here right now is whether or not Congress, particularly the Senate, at this point, is going to agree to something that President Bush wants, and that is a temporary worker program for illegal immigrants. And that is really the thing that -- for all of the issues that they are talking about, from border security on, that is the one that really vexes and splits the Republican Party.

On the one hand, you have those who say it's important because it is simply taking them out of the shadows and bowing to just the reality of this country that they are doing jobs that Americans, legal Americans simply do not and will not do. And on the other hand, you have many Republicans, and even some Democrats, a few Democrats, saying that this is akin to amnesty. Anything that gives illegal workers at least temporary legal status is akin to amnesty.

And that is what we are seeing shaping up there.

You see there Senator Specter, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, begin to take up this issue actually this afternoon. This is the big issue.

Now, one little microcosm of that was discussed this morning in the Senate Judiciary Committee, Kyra, and that is a bill by Senator Dianne Feinstein there, the Democrat you just saw. She says, well, at least what we should do is give the agriculture community, the agriculture industry, give those workers who are illegal some kind of temporary status for five years.

Let's listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: The thrust of this is to create a legalized workforce for this industry with the realization that the industry is cyclical, that the days often depend on the crops and the rotation of workers among crops, so that there could be a legal work force for agriculture which today there is not. And we all know there is not. And when employer sanctions are cracked down on, employers become very concerned, because they know their workers, for the most part, are undocumented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, there you see Senator Feinstein trying to give what she calls a political -- a dose of political reality, or at least business reality in this debate. But this is just the beginning, Kyra, of what is going to be about a two-week debate.

Senator Frist, the Senate majority leader, says even if this Senate Judiciary Committee doesn't finish their work, he is going to bring this issue to the floor. And they want to talk about it for the next two weeks.

Whether or not -- what they will get in the end and, more importantly, whether or not anything in this election year will get to the president's desk is a big question mark -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, a number of interesting points, Dana. Even though Republicans are split on this, it doesn't mean it's actually a coup for Democrats, because it seems like there is a mixture of feelings there as well. And we've been focusing on these protests in California, in Arizona. But I can think even here in Atlanta, Georgia, it's a big issue. We've even done pieces out of this state.

Do you think we're going to see this domino effect, more and more representatives there on the Hill coming out and saying, well, in my state this is what we're dealing with, and see it possibly become an even bigger issue than what we're seeing right now confined to just a couple states?

BASH: That's what's really interesting about this issue, Kyra. You're exactly right. It's not just the border state senators or lawmakers, the people who you would typically think would be worried about the immigration issue. You are hearing from senators from the Midwest, from Iowa, from Minnesota, from Ohio, places that you don't normally think of that have immigration problems, but they simply say they do.

And what they say is that these -- that illegal immigrants are not paying taxes, obviously, but they are using health care, they are using schools, and many people in their communities, many constituents, are calling -- they're getting -- these lawmakers are getting a lot of pressure saying, wait a minute, do something about this immigrant problem, because they say it is sucking up our resources. It is certainly a nationwide issue, no question about it.

PHILLIPS: Dana Bash live on Capitol Hill.

Thanks so much, Dana.

BASH: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Chasing daylight. A husband and wife seek out life's special moments. Well, one gets a grim diagnosis.

LIVE FROM is back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Want to remind you that we are waiting for the arraignment of the wife of a Tennessee minister gun down in his home earlier this week. She was returned to Tennessee over the weekend. She will be arraigned on charges of first-degree murder.

We are waiting for 32-year-old Mary Winkler to come through those doors right there. As you know, she confessed to the crime after being apprehended last week in Alabama with her three young daughters, telling Alabama Bureau of Investigation agents that she actually planned the murder of her husband, Matthew Winkler, 31, a minister there in Selmer, Tennessee.

We will take this live as soon as we see some action there in the courtroom.

Well, if you knew your life was ending, would you change how you lived? Eugene O'Kelly had to answer that question. He was CEO of a major accounting firm when he found out that he was dying. He asked himself, must the end of life be the worst part? Can it be the best?

In his final days, O'Kelly started this book, "Chasing Daylight: How My Forthcoming Death Transformed My Life." His wife Corinne wrote the final chapter. She joins me live from New York.

Great to see you, Corinne.

CORINNE O'KELLY, WIDOW OF EUGENE O'KELLY: Thank you for the opportunity of sharing "Chasing Daylight" with you.

PHILLIPS: Well, it's great.

Tell me about when your husband came to you and said, I think I want to write a book about the fact that I'm dying. What was your first reaction?

O'KELLY: My first reaction was ambivalence. I did not know how we would be able to take on one more task at that time, trying to balance his medical treatment and everything else that was going on. But I soon realized that it was a worth-while process.

The goals were important. One of the goals was to give our younger daughter something tangible that would allow her to come to terms with his passing later on in her life.

Another goal was to create a revenue base because all of the proceeds will be going to help other families faced with like circumstances, the fight against cancer. And to give the world an important message: you don't need to fear death.

PHILLIPS: Well, he was very blunt and very forthcoming about how he truly felt that he neglected his family. And he even writes in here, "I worked all the time. I worked weekends. I worked late into many nights. I missed virtually every school function of my younger daughter."

"For the first 10 years of my marriage when I was climbing the ladder at KPMG, Corinne and I rarely went on vacation. Over the course of my last decade with the firm I did manage to squeeze in workday lunches with my wife -- twice."

I mean, did that just -- what's it like to hear that?

O'KELLY: Eugene and I had a very close and warm relationship. His goals were our goals, as well as my goals were his goals.

The climb up the corporate ladder was something that we both saw worthwhile. Worthwhile because ultimately he was the steward of 20,000 jobs. And keeping that vital is an important part of the United States' economy.

PHILLIPS: Well, and he was so successful. He knew so many people. He dealt with so many people. But towards the end of his life, he drew these circles, Corinne. Tell me about these circles and how it helped him realize what had truly been important to him in his life.

O'KELLY: Well, you know, I don't think the circles helped him realize what was important in his life. I think he always knew that. And we talked about it.

I think he was trying to structure a way to organize his parting. Part of leaving this world is letting go of your attachments. And this circle -- these circle diagrams enabled him to...

PHILLIPS: Corinne, forgive me. I'm going to have to just ask you to stand by for just a second. Please forgive me. We've got to get to a live picture now out of Tennessee.

You know, she's accused of killing her husband, a small town minister. And now she is sitting in the courtroom.

During her -- it's her arraignment, actually. Mary Winkler, 32, confessing to that crime of killing her husband after being picked up by Alabama authorities, along with her three daughters. It was a pretty shocking story to come out of Tennessee.

You might remember when we first reported on this. The body of Matthew Winkler -- he's a minister at the 4th Street Church of Christ in Selmer. It's a very small town in the southwestern corner of the state. He was found by church members dead after they went to his home because he failed to show up for service.

We're going to listen to this arraignment now as his wife, Mary Winkler, finds out her fate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the only thing on the docket this afternoon is the arraignment for Ms. Winkler.

Sheriff, do we have Ms. Winkler?

Oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me.

All right. Miss Winkler, the purpose in having you here today is for the court to advise you of certain rights that you have and the charges that have been filed against you.

And I know that you are represented by Mr. Farese, who's a capable and experienced attorney, and he's probably gone over these with you already with you. But it is my responsibility to go over them with you again. And in addition to advising you of those rights, we're going to set the matter for preliminary hearing also today.

Miss Winkler, in the state of Tennessee versus Mary Carol Winkler, number 06657, you are charged, under Tennessee code annotated section 3913202, with first degree murder.

The affidavit of complaint reads that on March the 22nd, 2006, the body of Matthew Winkler was found in his home in Selmer, Tennessee. Mr. Winkler had been shot. On March 23rd, 2006, the deceased wife, Mary Carol Winkler, was apprehended by law enforcement officers in Orange Beach, Alabama. According to agents of the Alabama Bureau of Investigation, Mary Winkler confessed to planning the murder of her husband Matthew Winkler, shooting him on March 22nd, 2006, and leaving Selmer with her three daughters.

That is the sum and substance of the complaint, Miss Winkler. Now, in addition to advising you of the contents of the affidavit and complaint, the court is also required to advise you of certain rights that you have with regard to these charges. As I said before, I'm sure Mr. Farese has gone over these with you, but we have to do it again.

You do have the right to counsel. If you could not afford counsel, then the court would be required to appoint counsel for you. You have the right to remain silent with regard to these charges. You have the right to give no statement whatsoever. But if you choose to give any type of voluntary statement to anyone, including any member of any law enforcement agency, then that statement may be later used against you if it is given voluntarily.

And you do also have the right to a preliminary examination, at which time the state would have to go forward with enough evidence to show probable cause that an offense was committed and that you were the person who committed the offense.

Do you have any questions? Farese?

MARY WINKLER, ACCUSED OF FIRST-DEGREE MURDER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Then the other matter that we must address today under the rules of criminal procedure regards the setting of bail, if any. And that's what we're going do at this point. General Rice (ph), does the state wish to be heard regarding setting of bail?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May the court allow us to approach, please, your honor?

PHILLIPS: You're looking a live pictures right now of the wife of a Tennessee minister who was gunned down in his home earlier this week. She was returned here to Selmer, Tennessee, where she is being arraigned on first-degree murder charges. Mary Winkler, 32 years old, confessed to the crime after being apprehended last week in Alabama with her three daughters in tow.

She had told investigators that she had planned to murder her husband, Matthew Winkler, 31. Her confession came after she was read her Miranda Rights without the presence of an attorney. She actually told -- made her confession straight to investigators. She waived extradition and then was returned here to Selmer, Tennessee, where she's now facing her arraignment on first-degree murder charges.

The body of Matthew Winkler, a minister at the 4th Street Church of Christ in Selmer, a small town in the southwestern corner of the state, was found last week, actually Wednesday night, by church members who had gone to his home after he failed to show up for a mid- week service.

Are we wanting to listen in to this? OK. Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until preliminary hearing that is set for this coming Thursday at 9:00 a.m. If that is satisfactory with both the state and defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is for the defense, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is for the state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's fine, then. All right. Stand adjourned until 9:00 a.m. Thursday morning. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All rise.

PHILLIPS: 9:00 a.m. Thursday morning. That's the next time we may see Mary Winkler live. It's a case that most of us really can't even comprehend. Minister's wife, described at quiet, giving, dependable, all of a sudden accused killing her husband. And police say that she confessed. And if that's true, what could have happened?

My next guest knows better than most the pressures of being the wife of a minister. She's been married to one for 36 years. Nancy Harding Burgess (ph), thanks for being with us.

You're actually watching these live pictures with me. And you -- the first thing you said to me is you wanted to reach out and hug her.

NANCY HARDING BURGESS, FOUNDER, HEART AND SOUL CONNECTION: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Why?

BURGESS: I watched her face and you can tell this woman's in pain. And too many times, there are ministry wives that are in pain and they don't have anybody to reach out to them. They feel like they're isolated and alone. And I just want to go and tell her somebody is on her side. That face is her (INAUDIBLE). And the pain that -- she must have been in a lot of pain to kill her husband. And I know that kind of pain. I didn't try to kill my husband, but I tried to kill myself one time.

There is a lot of pressure on a minister's wife, stressors that people don't ever really understand because they think of ministry families as perfect. They have it all together, they're serving God, what needs could they have? But there are so many pressures on a ministry family. This woman had a young child. She could be postpartum depression.

There was a minister's wife that reached out to me a year and a half ago. And she said, I'm about to be a woman that's on the news. I'm about to kill all four of my children and then kill myself. And she said, I've tried to get help. Nobody will help me. I can't get into a psychiatrist. And we were able to get her in touch with somebody the next day and she got help and she's doing well today.

PHILLIPS: What could be so bad, though? What could be so -- you know, what burden could be so heavy in her life that would cause her to kill?

BURGESS: There are many times secret sins in ministry families. Her husband could have been addicted to porn. He could have had some kind of secret addiction. There could be spiritual abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse of her. I talk to a lot of ministry wives whose husbands -- many times, ministry wives function between two extremes. Either their husband is so put on a pedestal and he is so esteemed, that she knows the human side of that man. We're just people.

Mary Winkler is just a lady. Her husband was just a man. And who knows what was going on in their family that nobody knows. It could have been financial pressure. It could have been depression. It could have been so many things.

PHILLIPS: That's true, I mean, there is so much that we don't know. We don't know what she has said to investigators. We don't know what the motive was. We don't know what was happening behind closed doors. But you're speaking from your experience, and that's actually why you started this organization.

BURGESS: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Because you reached a point where you thought you were going to snap. What was it that -- I guess it's so hard, I guess, for a lot of people that think, gosh, she's married to a minister. They're supposed to have this perfect life.

BURGESS: Exactly.

PHILLIPS: It's supposed to be God-centered.

BURGESS: And that's part of the pressure.

PHILLIPS: What led you to that? What led you to that, though? What was it? Can you look back and really pinpoint what it was?

BURGESS: Being overwhelmed, frustrated, time management. Most wives are not vitally involved in their husband's job. I don't know if you're married or if you have a husband, but a doctor's wife is not usually vitally involved in his job where she goes on location, is there. A lawyer's wife, a journalist's wife.

A minister's wife is different. The time management is hard. She many times functions as a single mom, if she's got children, like Mary Winkler. So the Heart and Soul Connection was formed to give a safe place to women when they did find themselves in a place about to snap, or do something criminal, that there would be somebody to reach out to.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. Nancy, stay with me. We want to bring in Rusty Dornin. She's the correspondent on this story. She's there. And Rusty, I don't know if you were hearing part of my interview here with Nancy Burgess, but she actually has started an organization due to the pressures put on her as the wife of a pastor for 30-plus years, sort of an interesting perspective.

You are there. We were talking about motive. Do we know anything yet of what she told investigators, what Mary Winkler said?

DORNIN: No. I mean, the police are saying they know what the motive is, but they are not saying. They're keeping it very closely guarded secret. Her attorney, we spoke to this morning. He says that he is not admitting anything, even though she did confess to police, of course, that she did plan on killing her husband and that she shot him. But he's saying now we're not going to admit to anything. And as you saw, there was no plea at all during this arraignment.

It looks like we're going to have to wait until the preliminary hearing to hear some of this evidence that's going to come out. But I did speak to one of her friends earlier, also one of the fellow teachers at the school who says that she was going to school to get a teaching credential and she used to come to the church all the time and have lunch with her husband, that she seemed to have really that very loving relationship everybody keeps talking about.

She took time out of her day to come meet him during lunch, using that as an example, saying she was having problems and there was domestic abuse going on, it seems like why would she want to go continuously and have lunch with her husband. Puzzling a lot of people here today. But as I was telling you earlier, certainly there is a lot of speculation going on in the community.

PHILLIPS: Rusty Dornin, thank you. Nancy Burgess, founder and director of Heart and Soul Connection, a ministry specifically for pastors' wives. I bet Mary Winkler would have been someone you really would have wanted to talk to.

BURGESS: Yes. I would have.

PHILLIPS: Stay with us. Thanks Nancy. More LIVE FROM right after this.

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PHILLIPS: We want to continue our conversation now with the widow of Eugene O'Kelly, he was the CEO of a major accounting firm when he found out that he was dying and he asked himself, must the end of life be the worst part? And can it be the best?

In his final days, O'Kelly starred this book, "Chasing Daylight: How My Forthcoming Death Transformed My Life."

His wife, Corinne, wrote the final chapter. She is back with us in New York. Sorry we had to take a break there. We were just talking about the circles that your husband began to draw. Could you give us a visual? Tell us why he did this and how this was helping him put everything in perspective about his death. O'KELLY: I think the circles were a way for Gene to structure how much time and effort he put into bringing closure to his life. If one is to die in peace, one has to let go of their attachments. And this diagram was one way for him to structure that.

PHILLIPS: So he set out to have these perfect moments with people on his terms before he died.

O'KELLY: Well, I wouldn't exactly say on his terms. What he set out to do was to think and express to others what they had done for him and contributed to his, what he felt, was a wonderful life.

PHILLIPS: Can you be successful? Can you be wealthy and not miss out on those special moments, whether it be with your spouse or your child or someone special to you?

O'KELLY: I'm not sure that wealth or success really determines how well one balances their life. I think it takes creativity and determination and commitment.

PHILLIPS: What did you see in your husband before he died that you had not seen since the day you met him?

O'KELLY: Are you talking about what made me think maybe he was ill?

PHILLIPS: No. Obviously, this book brought out things in him that possibly, I don't know, you had not seen before or experience or heard from him before.

O'KELLY: The man that wrote "Chasing Daylight" was the man that I knew very well. I don't think the rest of the world knew that side of Gene, but intimately we shared the same conversations, the same values, and it's just reflected in the book for the rest of the world to see now.

PHILLIPS: And at the very end, you write, "The next morning I felt sublime joy and tranquility. The pain and loss would set in later. This was a time of celebration. Gene had left in peace. I looked out at the river and saw the sunlight glittering on the water. It was a perfect moment."

O'KELLY: It was a perfect moment. Since then, there have been many moments that have not been quite as perfect, but I am optimistic that I will find a way for both my daughters and myself to rebuild our lives.

PHILLIPS: Corinne O'Kelly. The book is "Chasing Daylight: How My Forthcoming Death Transformed My Life," written by her husband, the final chapter there by his wife. More LIVE FROM right after this.

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PHILLIPS: Straight ahead entertainment news with A.J. Hammer and "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT."

Hey A.J.

A.J. HAMMER, HOST "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Hello there, Kyra.

Well, just months before Dana Reeve died she taped a message. We are going to tell you why she did it and what she said.

Plus, get ready for farce of the penguins. I've got all that and more when LIVE FROM continues.

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PHILLIPS: The late Dana Reeve returns to TV, news from the world of talk shows and everyone loved that penguin movie, so it is about time someone made fun of it. All of that and a look ahead at Headline Prime's "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." One man has all the answers. That would be A.J. Hammer live from New York.

Hey A.J.

HAMMER: Hi there Kyra.

Yes, just three months before Dana Reeve died, she hosted a documentary just days from now it's going to make air. Reeve taped the introduction to the two-hour PBS documentary called "The New Medicine." Now, in it she tells viewers, quote, "your emotional state has a tremendous amount to do with sickness, health and well being. Hope continues to give me the mental strength to carry on."

That's something we hear a lot. We're hearing it from Dana when the documentary airs on Wednesday, and that will be on PBS.

And everybody may have loved Raymond, but we're hearing that everybody still has a lot of love for cast member Patricia Heaton as well. The Emmy-winning actress is close to signing a deal for her own daytime TV talk show. Now, this show would reportedly be very similar to ABC's "The View." And Heaton would be one of many hosts on the show. The show is scheduled to launch in fall of 2007.

Remember how you fell in love with the Oscar-winning movie, "March of the Penguins"? Everybody loved that film. So now a new film is poking fun at it. Comedian Bob Saget has written and directed a new mock-umentary. It is called -- are you ready for this? -- "Farce of the Penguins." Obviously it is going to be a send up of the Oscar-winning documentary that features Oscar winner Morgan Freeman as the narrator.

Well, in "Farce of the Penguins," this guy, Samuel L. Jackson, is going to be the narrator. Whoopi Goldberg and James Belushi will also be doing some of the voices. "Farce of the Penguins" arriving at a theater near you sometime this coming summer.

Kyra, it should be a lot of fun, and we don't know exactly what Harvey Fierstein is going to be doing in the film, but can you imagine a penguin that sounded like Harvey Fierstein?

PHILLIPS: I want some other voices. Hey, that was pretty good. You do a pretty good job, what do you say?

HAMMER: Yes, I will stick to this.

PHILLIPS: All right. We will see you tonight, A.J.

HAMMER: And here is what is coming up on "Showbiz Tonight." Tonight, what does "American Idol" have to do with the war in Iraq? Well, Vice President Dick Cheney is in the mix as well. Also, discrimination against overweight women. We reveal all on "Showbiz Tonight" at 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. Eastern on Headline Prime.

Kyra, we will see you then.

PHILLIPS: A.J. Hammer thanks so much.

Well, what does immigration reform mean to you? While Washington tries to decide, a California city has a one-word answer, welcome. That is coming up on LIVE FROM.

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