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Jury Deliberations Underway in Moussaoui Trial; Five Kansas Students Accused of School Shooting Plot; CIA Agent Fired For Leaking Classified Information

Aired April 24, 2006 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Jury deliberations underway now in the penalty phase -- actually the punishment phase of Zacarias Moussaoui trial.
Jeanne Meserve is standing by just outside the courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia, for us -- Jeanne.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tony, the jury has an extraordinarily complex technically job in front of it. They have got a 42-page long jury form. They are being asked to weigh 10 aggravating factors and 23 mitigating factors to decide whether Moussaoui should die or spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Some 9/11 family members came to the microphones after the case had gone to the jury, and they were unequivocal about what they thought the jury should do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This case should not be a referendum on the death penalty in this country. And the prosecutor rightly asked at the very end, if not this case, what? How many bodies does it take to execute someone in this country?

ROSEMARY DILLARD, 9/11 FAMILY MEMBER: To make light of the pain and suffering of others, what reason does that person have to live? And to think it is going to make him a martyr? No. It doesn't make him a martyr, it makes him one dead Muslim man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: To recap those closing arguments, the prosecution said that they reminded jurors of that very searing victim testimony that they have heard in the course of this trial, referring to victims being vaporized and crushed and turned into shards of bone.

They also cited Moussaoui's own lack of remorse, calling him pure evil, quote, "He was in the middle of the 9/11 plot and lied, so it could go forward." Another quote, "It is time to put an end to his hatred and his venom."

The defense portrayed Moussaoui as a bumbler, a bit player, who is being used as a sacrificial lamb. They urged the jury to vote against the death penalty for Moussaoui. They said Moussaoui's testimony in this trial was intended to bait the jury. Here is a quote, "He came here to die and you are his best chance."

Now Moussaoui, of course, has been very difficult in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom in this case, undercutting his defense at every turn. The judge, Leonie Brinkema, at the conclusion of court today called him an impossible client. "Never has there been a client as difficult as this one," she said. However she voiced the opinion that this had been a fair trial, and she said whatever the jury does the jury does.

We will now wait for their verdict.

Tony, back to you.

HARRIS: And Jeanne, just for everyone at home and folks who are listening to your report on the radio. What is that racket that is going on around you?

MESERVE: They are building a hotel just on the other side of the camera. They have been over there in the midst of construction as long as this trial has been going on. I'm sure it hasn't been easy for the audience. Our apologies.

HARRIS: Wonderful concentration on your part. Jeanne Meserve for us.

Jeanne, thank you.

NGUYEN: I want to take you now to Kansas and CNN's Keith Oppenheim, where a hearing is underway today for those five students accused in the alleged school plot.

Keith, you have been in the courtroom. What has happened so far?

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well it is interesting what a few months makes in terms of age and how it is handled in court. This hearing is actually still going on. They had the first phase for an 18-year-old suspect and the other four who are between ages -- between 15 and 17 years old. They are being treated by -- as juveniles for the moment.

In fact you're taking a look at the 18-year-old, whose name we're not going to use just yet until we see it in court documents. But that 18-year-old had his hearing with the other four. These five have been accused of a plot to do a Columbine High School style attack on their high school last Thursday, on the seventh anniversary of the Columbine shootings.

In fact police found some guns and ammunition at the home of one of the students and also found notes as to this plot and lockers and also saw the plot on a web site.

In this hearing for the 18-year-old, Judge Robert Fleming was asking this young man whether he had ever committed a crime before. The young man said no. And it was clear that the prosecutors and investigators aren't done with possible charges. And they said so. What he's been charged with so far is criminal threat and incitement to a riot, both are felonies but carry maximums of 17 months in jail. It's possible that he and the other four could be charged with offenses with much more serious penalties than that.

So now you're going to have another hearing for the four juveniles. No cameras in the courtroom allowed for when the 15- to 17-year-olds are before the judge. But for the 18-year-old, because he's just a few months older than some of them, his name as well as his likeness can be shown.

Back to you.

NGUYEN: Keith, we're looking at some video right now of those 16- and 17-year-olds coming into the court, as you can see there are orange jackets over their faces to hide their identity because they are juveniles. Let me ask you. You talked about some of the charges that the 18-year-old could possibly face. What about these four other teenagers?

OPPENHEIM: Well, this is still in process. And what is interesting is that the bond was $500,000 for all of them. And it's possible that all of them could be tried as adults. All of them could face the same or similar charges, but right now there's a distinction being made just at this phase of it.

And for the 18-year-old, by the way, Betty, the bond for him now was reduced to $50,000 and house arrest. And his parents were just a couple of rows in front of me, and the judge said, do you have an attorney for him? They said no. I recommended to him that he get a public defender. There actually is no public defender's office here in Columbus but a local attorney came up and was called by the judge to represent this 18-year-old man.

So what the charges could be for all five of them, we really don't know yet and won't know at the end of the day. It's still in process. We have these smaller charges keeping them basically either in custody or under house arrest for the moment.

NGUYEN: Well, as we wait to hear those charges, is it clear at this point, do you have any idea who the ring leader may be, if there was one?

OPPENHEIM: No, I can't say that I do. If the 18-year-old is that, I'm not quite sure yet from what I saw in court.

NGUYEN: All right. CNN's Keith Oppenheim watching things develop there in Kansas. And of course we'll stay on top of it as well.

Thank you Keith -- Tony.

HARRIS: And back to one of our top stories, three explosions rocked the resort town of Dahab, Egypt, today. Dozens are killed and injured. Earlier on LIVE FROM we heard from a man who witnessed those explosions near the Red Sea. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGE LOUSSARARIAN, WITNESSED EGYPT ATTACKS: Actually we were just next to the explosion, 800 meters from there. We heard the explosion and then we saw the light and a lot of people running towards the explosion -- from the explosion.

HARRIS: Where did the explosion take place? We understand it was in a market area?

LOUSSARARIAN: It's in an area in front of hotels, restaurants and where the night life happens.

HARRIS: OK. Let me ask it this way. Give me a sense of some of the other structures, some of the other businesses around where the explosion occurred.

LOUSSARARIAN: It's the main street where you have all the hotels and events happening on the beach and where you have the restaurants. You have the bars. So it's really truly downtown Dahab.

HARRIS: How would you describe the scene? Was it congested with a lot of people, 8:45 in the evening? This happened about an hour ago, is this what you're telling us?

LOUSSARARIAN: After the explosion, we left the place, and now we are at the checkpoint going out of the Dahab. We are seeing them all coming out and police forces coming in. That's what I saw later.

HARRIS: Any one in your party injured?

LOUSSARARIAN: No, no. I don't think so.

HARRIS: And how about you? Are you OK?

LOUSSARARIAN: Yes, thank you very much. Yes. We're fine. We were 200 meters, 100 meters.

HARRIS: Did you see what you would describe as a number of casualties in the immediate area?

LOUSSARARIAN: We saw the casualties going through the checkpoint. We saw around 20 cars, ambulances and pickups, private cars and buses with injured people in them. We saw at least two bodies, but we are hearing that there is much more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: More on this developing story on "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer at the top of the hour.

A pattern of activity, now a CIA agent is without a job, fallout from the leak investigation. The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: It is the talk of the town in Washington, D.C. A CIA firing. By most accounts the officer was well respected by co- workers. Sources confirm she is Mary O. McCarthy, a veteran intelligence analyst. Her alleged crime, leaking information to reporters. Joining us now John McLaughlin, a former acting director of the CIA, and a CNN national security adviser. John, good to talk to you.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Hi, Tony.

HARRIS: Can you remember the last time an officer was fired?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, people are dismissed for a variety of reasons. I don't recall in recent history an officer being dismissed for leaking to the press.

HARRIS: John, what's the language? Is there language that a potential employee must sign off in the job capacity of what we're talking about here before assuming the job that says, hey, look, I won't divulge classified information?

MCLAUGHLIN: It's pretty straight forward. It works on two sides. First the director of the CIA is charged by law with protecting intelligence sources and methods. It's a legal responsibility on his part. Employees, when they sign on, sign a secrecy agreement that indicates, says, pledges they will not reveal classified information to people who are not authorized to have it. It's about that simple.

HARRIS: You do it you expect, you do it knowing that there will be serious consequences?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, that's correct. I should say in the specific case we're talking about it is important for me to say we don't know all the circumstances here. We all need to understand we're talking about something that has been characterized by the agency but we certainly don't know the details or the precise circumstances in which this is alleged to have occurred.

As described it's not the sort of thing you're supposed to do and everyone understand that.

HARRIS: John, let me pick up on that as the former acting director of the CIA. What else? What more do we need to know? What further clarification would you like to see?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I mean the agency is not going to comment on this. What I'm say something we don't know the precise substantive thing that is said to have been leaked.

HARRIS: Inside the walls of the CIA what kind of impact does a story like this? How does it ripple inside the agency?

MCLAUGHLIN: This is the kind of thing that's pretty shocking inside the agency. Particularly the allegation that a leak like this would come from the inspector general staff. That's the part of the agency where people have to expect to go and encounter nothing but the utmost discretion because they are going to report to the inspector general issues that are of concern to them.

HARRIS: If you feel strongly, if you stand strongly in disagreement with a policy or an operation, how -- give us an inside take on this -- how do you work that opposition through the system?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there are a lot of ways to do it. You can report it up the chain of command to the director and the director should give you a fair hearing. You can also go, if you're not satisfied, to an internal ombudsmen, just like a newspaper has an ombudsman, who is charged with hearing complaints confidentially from employees.

You can also go, I think perhaps most effectively, to the two intelligence committees one in the Senate and one in the House. The leadership of which is split between the Republicans and the Democrats so that you have people there of both persuasions who are quite, in my experience, quite prepared to hear of problems or disagreements and encourage employees to come forward with them and in my experience they have generally acted on these when they hear about them.

HARRIS: John, let me ask you what I acknowledge is a loaded question. OK, but you're an adviser to us. Help us with this. What is worse, to declassify information, and I know you know where I'm going with this to discredit an opposition voice or to do what has been alleged here?

HARRIS: I don't think you can talk about it in terms of what is worse. I -- these are really apples and oranges in a way. I would put them in separate bins. Obviously a controversy about the former. In the case of what has been described here as we understand it, it's pretty cut and dry inside the agency. It isn't a matter of what is worse, it's just that you sign an agreement not to do this and if you do it you accept the consequences.

HARRIS: John, we appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

This Saturday's White House correspondents' dinner could see fall-out from another CIA leak story we alluded to just a moment ago that's because Valerie Plame is scheduled to be there with her husband. Plame is the former CIA operative whose outing set in motion a whirlwind of scandal.

The man who outed her, columnist Robert Novak, is expected to be there as is President Bush.

For years, we knew him only as Deep Throat. A shadowy figure who helped bring down the Nixon presidency. Tomorrow night Mark Felt talks to Larry King, catch it all, 9:00 eastern. Tuesday right here on CNN.

NGUYEN: Well two men, one job. Who will guide New Orleans through the next few years. That's a question, who is going to take that job? Who is going to be at the helm? Details of the city's run- off election. The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: All right. As New Orleans rebuilds and another hurricane season approaches, it is still not clear who the city's next mayor will be. Hurricane season begins June 1st, 12 days after a run- off between incumbent Ray Nagin and Louisiana Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu. They were the two top vote getters in Saturday's election.

Gulf Coast correspondent Susan Roesgen joins us now with the latest on this. Hi there, Susan.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN GULF COAST CORRESPONDEN: Hey, Betty.

I think voters in the city really have a pretty stark choice. They can decide whether to stay with the man they've got or to go with the man who has been in politics a long time, but not as mayor. Mayor Ray Nagin did get 38 percent of the vote to lead the primary in Saturday's election. Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu got 29 percent.

And so the big question for the voters now is who is best to lead this city in the recovery? Who is the best person to bring people back, the best person to bring businesses back, and the best person to help this city get back on its feet?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV MITCH LANDRIEU, NEW ORLEANS MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Yet today we stand together before this great nation and proclaim that although we may be bent, we will not be bowed nor broken. Today -- today we resume that great exercise in democracy, and conduct an election, another necessary step towards normalcy which so often seems so far away.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: I stand here before you a humble man, someone who never thought that I would have this kind of support after some of the crazy things I've said. But I have said some things and I have done more things, and I'm going to continue to live by my deeds. So excuse me every now and then if I go a little too far.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: Well, going a little bit too far always keeps the race interesting, Betty. Political analysts are still picking the primary election apart. Some point to Nagin's lead as a sign that his campaign has gained momentum. Others say well, yes, he did get 38 percent of the vote, but that means 62 percent of the voters voted for someone else, voted against him. So it should be very interesting going into the run-off election on May 20th.

NGUYEN: Oh yes, interesting to say the least. Susan Roesgen, thank you for that.

HARRIS: And time now to check in with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. He is standing by in THE SITUATION ROOM to tell us what's coming up at the top of the hour. Hi, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Tony, thanks very much.

President Bush hits a brand new low in a brand new poll that we're about to release. That's coming up in a few moments. We're also going to take a closer look at what's dragging the president down and what he needs to do for a rebound.

Also, gas price outrage. Are oil companies gouging you at the pump? We'll find out why two top Republicans are now calling for a federal investigation.

Plus, immigration divide. We'll also find out why one Republican congressman today refused to appear with the president in his very own district because of this very contentious issue.

And caught on tape. Cynthia McKinney lets loose while miked up. Our Jeanne Moos has a closer look at some other famous politicians who have gone off on camera.

All that coming up, Tony, right at the top of the hour.

HARRIS: OK, Wolf. Gone off on camera, I like it.

Ali Velshi and Betty with the closing bell from the New York Stock Exchange. Must see TV.

NGUYEN: I tell you!

HARRIS: More LIVE FROM coming up.

NGUYEN: Don't miss it!

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