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President Bush Speaks at Cinco de Mayo Event at White House; Protester Interrupts Rumsfeld Event in Atlanta; One Family's Grief

Aired May 04, 2006 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As we approach Cinco de Mayo, the president is honoring that day a day early with the ambassador to Mexico, Latinos member of the military, also Latino members of Congress there at the East Room of the White House. We just want to listen in and see if the issue of immigration is going to come up. We have a feeling it's going to.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We pay tribute to that heritage and we honor the warmth and importance of the friendship between our two nations.

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

BUSH: And now it's my pleasure to introduce one of Mexico's great talents, Graciela Beltran.

PHILLIPS: All right. I tried -- I tried to convince the folks she actually has a beautiful voice. You'll want to go on to CNN.com/pipeline to listen to her music. It's beautiful.

But what's happening here at the East Room of the White House is the president is celebrating Cinco de Mayo a day early. He had a scheduling conflict. So, he's got obviously very well-known Hispanic musicians, also the U.S. ambassador to Mexico, members of the military, the Latino members of the military, also Latino members of Congress, honoring the culture and, of course, the dead.

OK. I'm being told that this is live pictures here actually in Atlanta, Georgia. Live pictures -- you said that Rumsfeld is speaking at this event?

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld speaking here at the Southern Center for International Studies in Atlanta. Let's just listen for a minute.

All right. We're going to play back the tape -- there it is -- and show you exactly what happened.

Let's see if there's any reaction.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: (INAUDIBLE) is undecided.

(LAUGHTER)

RUMSFELD: In any event, we went in and met Sadat and didn't know what to expect. And it turned out he had been in the United States, in a military school over here in the South and had a special experience which he had never forgotten. And the...

PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre, not a happy member, I think, there of the security as Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense, speaking here in Atlanta, Georgia. He's addressing the Southern Center for International Studies.

We saw the live pictures going down in our control room and tried to get them as it was -- the moment there as it was happening. But it always seems that an antiwar protester works his or her way into these events.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's certainly been the case lately as opinion about the war has been shifting. But you saw, again, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld as characteristically unfazed by these things. I mean, one thing that he has going for him is a self-assurance -- some people calling it an arrogance -- but a self-assurance that what he's doing is on the right path.

And he usually handles these things by simply pausing, smiling, maybe making a light comment. He's careful, though, not to criticize people who are -- who are speaking out against the war, making a point that even the retired generals who oppose him have a right to their opinion. But again, he insists that he believes that the long view will vindicate his view of what's going on.

PHILLIPS: All right, Jamie. We actually were going to -- before this happened, we were going to talk more about this videotape that U.S. forces came across. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the number one man in Iraq right now, some outtakes. Supposedly the outtakes he didn't want anyone to see.

He took his edited version, apparently, and put it on the Internet. But it shows someone who's supposed to be a pretty fierce warrior not even understanding his machine gun, how to work it, and I guess pretty -- just bad tactics. I mean, no tactics at all.

I mean, how do you describe it? I mean, you look at it and the first thing you think of is Barney Fife.

But anyway, tell me what happened here, how the military came across this, and the response so far.

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, there's a lot of interesting things about this tape. Now, of course, we first saw this image of Zarqawi firing an automatic weapon back when he released on April 25th a tape that was slickly produced to show that he was in charge of the terror network in Iraq, but an interesting thing happened since then.

The U.S. military actually found the raw tape that includes the outtakes. This happened in a raid apparently about nine days before the tape was released, and they released part of it today at the U.S. military briefing in Baghdad. Here you see Major General Rick Lynch essentially mocking Zarqawi for his inability to fire this weapon.

But one of the interesting things about it -- and again, if we can see the shot of him trying to fire the weapon again, this weapon is an American weapon. It's called a SAW or Squad Automatic Weapon, a very heavy machine gun which has a very heavy trigger. It's not easy to fire. And, in fact, it might be quite understandable that, anyone, even somebody with weapons experience, wasn't familiar with this particular weapon, might have trouble firing off more than a single shot at a time.

It's interesting, though. That, again, is an American weapon. Also, in the video, where we see him sitting around, we see American weapons in the background there as well.

But, what - the other thing this illustrates is this is as much a war of propaganda and images and perception. And mocking Zarqawi and trying to belittle him in this video is a tactic that the U.S. has employed to try to counter the propaganda which has been so effective in the Muslim world portraying the U.S.

One other interesting thing is, in that raid back on the 16th of April, where they captured this video, the U.S. military downplayed the idea that they got anywhere near close to Zarqawi because there were reports at time that they might have been very close to getting him. But this tape would indicate that they were -- if they weren't close to Zarqawi, they were certainly close to somebody who is close to Zarqawi, because who else would have had the raw tape?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. GEN. RICK LYNCH, U.S. ARMY: Here's Zarqawi, the ultimate warrior, trying to shoot his machine gun. It's supposed to be automatic fire. He's shooting single shots. One at a time.

Something's wrong with the machine gun. He looks down. Can't figure it out. Calls his friend to come unblock the stoppage and get the weapon firing again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Again, interesting. That, Major General Lynch, again, you know, poking a little fun at Zarqawi and his prowess at that weapon.

But again, it's a very interesting development because it, A, underscores the war of ideas that's going on, the war of images and perception. It also, perhaps, leads some credence to the idea that maybe the U.S. was getting close to Zarqawi. And also, it's not clear at all that it really shows much about Zarqawi's military abilities with the weapon, because as I said, the Squad Automatic Weapon, a very heavy trigger, hard to fire unless you've had specific training on it, and one would imagine he hasn't had a lot of specific training on American weapons.

PHILLIPS: Jamie, as we were talking, another protester stood up there at the speech at the history museum where Donald Rumsfeld is speaking to the Southern Center for International Studies. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You lied! You lied that Iraq (INAUDIBLE)! You lie about everything!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Once again, Donald Rumsfeld there -- here in Atlanta, Georgia, talking to the Southern Center for International Studies. There always seems to be a couple that get into the group and are able to demonstrate against the war, Jamie.

MCINTYRE: Well, Rumsfeld has become a lightning rod for criticism of the war, both, as I said, the object of criticism from some retired generals, and to critics who feel that the war is not going well, the policy is not the correct policy. They really see Rumsfeld as the chief architect of that.

Rumsfeld himself has said he thinks people are aiming at him simply because he's a much easier target than the president. But President Bush has made it clear that he intends to keep Rumsfeld on as secretary of defense. And you can see that Rumsfeld continues to confidently soldier on in his speech.

PHILLIPS: Well, we've got a reporter there. We'll hear from that individual when it wraps up.

Jamie McIntyre, at the Pentagon.

Thanks so much, Jamie.

Violent, chaotic, and tragically familiar. A roadside bomb went off today next to the U.S. Army vehicle in Baghdad. Two American soldiers were killed.

A couple of hours earlier, a suicide bomber killed himself and 10 other Iraqis outside of a Baghdad court building. The attacker set off his bomb inside a crowd of police officers and civilians. About 50 people were hurt.

There's no more devastating news than when a family learns that a son, a daughter, a spouse isn't coming home from war alive. Now imagine the shock if a mother didn't even know that her son was there.

Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jose Gomez loved his mother so much he worried for her, so much that when he found out he had to return to Iraq for a second tour of duty, he kept it a secret. His mother knew about the first tour. But for the second, Gomez told her he had left New York to take classes in Texas.

MARIA GOMEZ, SLAIN SOLDIER'S MOTHER (through translator): He would tell me, mama, I'm going to study so you will be well, so you won't have to work. Maria Gomez said it was just like her son to say that, and she had no reason to doubt him.

Then the news: Last Friday, Maria came home from work and found two members of the Army's notification team waiting on her doorstep.

GOMEZ (through translator): When we went upstairs, he said, sit down. And I replied, no, you please, sit down. When he said no, sit down, I have some bad news. Then he told me, your son died. At that moment, I thought I was going to die.

CHO: Gomez said she couldn't believe it, and won't until her son's body comes home.

GOMEZ (through translator): I still don't believe it's true.

CHO: Felix Jimenez is Gomez's stepfather.

FELIX JIMENEZ, SLAIN SOLDIER'S STEPFATHER (through translator): He was a great kid, great.

CHO: Jose Gomez and his mother came to the U.S. from the Dominican Republic when he was three, shortly after his father died. Last week, Sergeant Gomez was on routine patrol in Baghdad when an improvised explosive device detonated near his Humvee. The 23-year- old was one of two soldiers killed.

But the story doesn't end there. Gomez's death comes three years after the death of his then-fiance, who died under similar circumstances. Twenty-one-year-old Anna Lori Esparza Gutierrez (ph) was an Army private. She died in an IED attack in Tikrit in 2003, the second female soldier killed in Iraq. The two met during Gomez's first tour of duty. They got engaged there. Gomez came home for her funeral.

In time, he met another woman, and asked her to marry him just before leaving for his second tour. His mother said he called her every Saturday.

GOMEZ (through translator): He did everything for me. I lived for him. He lived for me.

CHO: Gomez said in his last call to her, he told her he'd have a surprise for her. He was talking about Mother's Day.

GOMEZ (through translator): I feel like I'm already dead.

CHO: Gomez was a U.S. resident before leaving for Iraq. The Pentagon says it's possible posthumously he'll become a U.S. citizen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Alina Cho now joins us live.

Wow. So he's an illegal immigrant. Amazing the timing of this story with all of the protests that we've seen, Alina. What do you think? Do you think he'll become an American citizen?

CHO: Well, he's a U.S. resident, Kyra. His family says that he will likely posthumously become a U.S. citizen.

And interestingly enough, we checked with the Pentagon. And the Pentagon has told us that in fact, that it's fairly common that this happens, as long as the family wants this. And Sergeant Gomez's family has requested that.

So, though he was not a U.S. citizen in life, it is likely in death he will become one. It is very interesting.

PHILLIPS: What can you tell us about funeral arrangements and how the family's doing?

CHO: Well, it was interesting, because I asked the mother, Maria Gomez, after we interviewed her, I said, "Are you glad that you didn't know?" Because I think the inclination is, and I think people would think that, oh, my goodness, I wish I would have known about this as a mother. But she said that she was actually happy that she did not know.

She said during his first tour in Iraq she was just simply worried sick and that he was trying to spare her. And his stepfather said that he was quite brave for doing so.

PHILLIPS: Wow. Alina Cho, thanks so much.

Much more reaction to the Moussaoui sentence is coming up. Retired Lieutenant Colonel Brian Birdwell survived the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon. Lorie Van Auken lost her husband in the World Trade Center. They're going to join me live in just a few minutes to talk about the jury's decision to spare Moussaoui the death penalty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: You may have heard the last of Zacarias Moussaoui. The al Qaeda plotter and hater of America was sentenced this morning to life in prison, and not just any prison, but a super-max prison without parole.

Hours earlier, jurors refused to recommend the death penalty, a decision that prompted Moussaoui to shout, "America, you lost!" Today, the judge corrected him, predicting -- and we quote -- "You will die with a whimper."

As we've seen in the Moussaoui case, the families of those who were lost on 9/11 have a wide range of opinions about Moussaoui, his trial, and the death penalty in general.

Joining me from Washington, retired Lieutenant Colonel Brian Birdwell. He was burned over 60 percent of his body in the 9/11 attack at the Pentagon.

Lorie Van Auken is in New York. Her husband Kenneth died in the World Trade Center.

It's a pleasure to have you both with me today.

LT. COL. BRIAN BIRDWELL, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you, ma'am.

PHILLIPS: Brian, let's start with you. And what do you think is probably your most vivid memory from 9/11?

BIRDWELL: Being at the Georgetown University Hospital just prior to being anesthetized and knowing in my heart that I was dying and that I was saying my final words, having a friend of mine take my wedding ring off of my burned hands. Didn't have the chance to talk to my wife, but was making final peace with my creator and with the lord. And that's probably the most seminal of the moments that I experienced of many that day.

PHILLIPS: Brian, I know you and your wife are very strong Christians. And so that was probably a moment in your life that was probably the deepest moment of prayer you've ever experienced.

BIRDWELL: That is -- that is a very fair statement, yes, ma'am.

PHILLIPS: Lorie, do you remember the last time you spoke with your husband?

LORIE VAN AUKEN, HUSBAND KILLED ON 9/11: My husband left me a message which I wasn't able to -- I didn't answer the call -- I couldn't get to the phone -- that said, "I love you. I'm in the World Trade Center. The building was hit by something. I don't know if I'm going to get out, but I love you very much."

And that's the last I ever heard his voice.

PHILLIPS: And he was working for Cantor Fitzgerald, right?

VAN AUKEN: That's correct.

PHILLIPS: And do you -- so the message was brief. When you got that message, what did you do?

VAN AUKEN: I started to scream, and, you know, we began the search for him. And we began the questions, which still carry on to this day.

PHILLIPS: Brian, how do you feel about Moussaoui's punishment?

BIRDWELL: Well, it's clearly justice, but I disagreed that we did not take it to the level of the veracity and lethality that I thought he deserved. The jury decided that they didn't think he was a big enough player, or he was a bit player. And my question would be, what bit of September 11th was not worthy of the death penalty?

Was it fair? Was it appropriate? It was done. And we have great respect for our judicial process.

Our founders understood respect for the jury, because the final decision rests with citizens. And that's where it appropriately was.

So, I simply just disagree that they didn't take it to the final veracity and lethality that I believe that Mr. Moussaoui deserved.

PHILLIPS: Lorie, what do you think?

VAN AUKEN: The jury came to the same conclusion that I came to and the people that I worked with on the 9/11 Commission, which was that Moussaoui really was not responsible for September 11th. He would have liked to have been, but he wasn't trusted, he wasn't -- he wasn't somebody that knew anything.

He couldn't have lied because he didn't have information. And we have in our custody people who actually do have a lot more to do with the planning and the money and the Cole bombing.

We have Khallad bin-Atash, who was responsible for the planing of the Cole bombing. We have Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was the mastermind for September 11th. We have Ramzi bin al-Shib, who was a money man. And we really don't understand why the government gave Moussaoui to the jury, because a jury would come up with a death penalty if they had actual evidence from the people who were truly involved, and that would have been something that would have been what we would have wished for.

PHILLIPS: Brian, what do you think? I mean, she names some pretty heavy hitters there.

BIRDWELL: She did.

PHILLIPS: And a lot of people have said, you know, Moussaoui, he was a small fish in a huge pond in this plan.

BIRDWELL: Well, that's true. I agreed with what she said about the numbers of people. The difference is that Moussaoui was already in federal custody. Ultimately, the punishments associated with the gentleman -- I shouldn't say gentleman, but the men that she has named will either rest with the tribunal or be settled on the battlefield.

The war on terror as an entire strategic prosecution I don't think belongs in the courtroom. I think the primary reason Mr. Moussaoui was, was because he was already in custody on other charges. And then as the events of September 11th unfold, he became known for what he was, which was a conspirator in the attacks.

PHILLIPS: And finally, you know, you mentioned he should have received more. But Brian, don't you think, I mean, he would want to say that he died a martyr, he would want to get death by lethal injection? I mean, now he's got to live a shameful life in prison, and who knows who will get his hands on him.

BIRDWELL: The key difference in what you've said, though, ma'am, is that if we start making decisions as juries based upon not the questions of law before the court or the nature of the evidence, but based upon the beliefs of the individual charged and convicted, I have great fear for our judicial process. I am not concerned with what he thinks about be a martyr or what our enemies may think about him becoming a martyr. He has earned death, and that's what I thought he deserved.

PHILLIPS: Lorie, final thoughts on the judicial system and response to what Brian says? I mean, do we need to get tougher?

VAN AUKEN: Our government had information, Able Danger. They had the Phoenix Memo. They had the August 6th PDB, which was entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the United States."

Our government had information far more than Moussaoui had about when this attack was going to occur. And we'd like to see the people who had this information and didn't act on it held accountable. And we would like to see the people who were really responsible for September 11th be tried for it.

PHILLIPS: Brian, I know you give back -- because of the burns that you experienced, you give back to burn victims now. And I think, without a doubt, what you're doing keeps people like Kenneth and other victims of 9/11 alive in spirit and thought. And I appreciate both of your times -- Brian Birdwell.

BIRDWELL: Thank you, ma'am.

PHILLIPS: And Lori Van Auken. Thank you both so much.

VAN AUKEN: Thank you so much.

PHILLIPS: We want to get straight to Carol Lin right now, who's got a developing story, I'm being told, in the newsroom -- Carol.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra. We want to show you some dramatic pictures out of New Mexico right now. Now, what you are hopefully about to see is -- it looks like a giant wildfire. But, actually this is a situation, as far as we know, that is very much under control. This is 2,100 acres or more about -- it's about 50 percent contained.

But this is a controlled burn, a very large one. And what this means that is the fire departments there, the forestry service, intentionally set these fires to burn off a lot of the dry underbrush so that when fire season actually hits full force, that there will be less fuel for the fire. 2006 expected to be one of the worst fire season on record.

On the telephone with me right now is Dan Ware. He's with the New Mexico State Forestry Service.

Dan, good to have you. As we look at these pictures, it looks very dramatic. Looks like a dangerous situation. How is the controlled burn going?

DAN WARE, NEW MEXICO STATE FORESTRY SERVICE: Well, and let me -- and a little miscommunication there. This did start out as a wildfire yesterday, and it had burned by about 10:00 last night 100 acres. And what our fire crews did, and the fire crews supporting us, they went in there on the north side of the fire and then intentionally set some of that on fire. So basically, the fire that was burning out of control was met by the fire that we set, basically fighting fire with fire. That way, we can control the direction, hopefully, and keep it from burning out of this area where it's located.

LIN: Good to know. So the controlled burn accounts for the sheer size of the fire, though, that we're looking at right now?

WARE: That's correct. There's -- that's an area that's about 2,000-plus acres. And by going in there and burning out this -- this is salt cedar. It's a very invasive, non-native plant, vegetation here in New Mexico. And it -- really, we're in a drought situation. And this stuff sucks up 200 gallons of water a day, just one single tree. And so it's very invasive. And so we can get in there and burn this out, and eventually, that will help us retain some water.

LIN: Now, this is close to Albuquerque? I mean, is that the first major city?

WARE: Well, it's about 90 miles south of Albuquerque. It's south of another city called Secoro (ph), which is along Interstate 25 in a very rural area. But we do have a lot of people that live out in these rural areas. But luckily, this fire is burning in an area that's not really close to any homes. And so no structures are immediately threatened. So we're in good shape there.

LIN: Dan, this is a lesson, though, what you all may be facing this fire season. I mean, the National Fire -- Interagency Fire Service released a report a couple of weeks ago, stating how dry the conditions are. For example, in the state of New Mexico, firefighters are saying that they are seeing trees explode. I mean, ignite even 50 feet away from where the flames actually stand, because the situation is so hot and dry on the ground.

WARE: That's absolutely true. This is really a very good lesson. Our fire season normally starts late May into mid-June. We were seeing fires in December of 2005, grass fires on the eastern side of our state, burning thousands upon thousands of acres. And now we're seeing them in forested areas. And our forests and water sheds here are in a very unhealthy state. It sounds funny, but it's because there's too many trees and they suck up all of the water that we get, and they're very unhealthy, and that makes them extremely susceptible to fire.

LIN: Right. Ponderosa pine in New Mexico, for example, that's proliferated. You've got a lot of skinny trees, but not a lot of the more mature trees. So you've got more fuel on the ground. So when you hear that the number of fires -- wildfires just this spring alone, five times the normal average. That's a pretty frightening scenario, going into summer.

WARE: It is really -- it is very frightening. In 2004 and 2005 in New Mexico, roughly 150,000 acres burned. In 2006 alone, we've already seen more than 220,000 acres burned. So what we've been doing is being very proactive with all of our interagency partners, getting out and getting into the communities and talking to people about fire prevention and the little things that individuals can do to not add to the problem. We can't do anything about lightning, unfortunately, but we can help stem the tide of human-caused fires.

LIN: You bet, smoking illegal fire -- outdoor fireplaces and the like. Dan, appreciate your time. We're looking at these dramatic pictures and we're hoping that this is not the scene that we're going to be looking at day after day this summer.

WARE: Well, it -- and I appreciate that. And we're well prepared. So hopefully when this time comes, we'll be able to get things taken care of and save lives.

LIN: You got it. Boy, Kyra, look at that. It's a situation that they believe is pretty much under control at this point. Starting as a wildfire, now extending into a controlled burn area. And let's hope they get a handle on this. But a very dry, serious situation, not only in New Mexico, but in several other states.

PHILLIPS: Carol, thanks to you and our affiliate KOAT for those live pics. Thanks.

One Arizona sheriff talks tough on immigration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could very easily turn these people over to immigration. They'd get a free ride back to Mexico. Right now, they're getting a free ride to the jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: A law man and the law breakers, ahead on LIVE FROM.

Also, a reminder. If you have an insurance fear or frustration, we want to hear from you. E-mail us at livefrom@CNN.com. Carolyn Goreman (ph) of the Insurance Information Institute will answer your questions live. That's in the 3:00 p.m. hour of LIVE FROM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Right now, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld speaking actually here in Atlanta, Georgia, at the Atlanta History Museum, not far from downtown. He's talking to the Southern Center for International Studies, and of course within the speech came a few protesters.

(CROWD NOISES)

QUESTION: And so I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people. Why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary and that has caused these kinds of casualties? Why?

RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven't lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn't lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate. And he presented that to the United Nations.

The president spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence people and he went to the American people and made a presentation. I'm not in the intelligence business. They gave the world their honest opinion. It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.

RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and we were just ...

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were near Tikrit, near Baghdad, and north, east, south and west of there. Those are your words.

RUMSFELD: My words -- my words were that -- no, no, no wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

QUESTION: This is America.

RUMSFELD: You're getting plenty of play, sir.

QUESTION: I'd just like an honest answer.

RUMSFELD: I'm giving it to you.

QUESTION: We're talking about lies, and your allegation that there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq. Was that a lie or were you misled?

RUMSFELD: Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the prewar period, that is a fact.

QUESTION: Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. That's also ...

RUMSFELD: He was also in Baghdad.

QUESTION: Yes, when he needed to go to the hospital. Come on, these people aren't idiots. They know the story.

RUMSFELD: You are -- let me -- let me give you an example. It's easy for you to make a charge, but why do you think that the men and women in uniform, every day when they came out of Kuwait and went into Iraq, put on chemical weapon protective suits? Because they liked the style?

They honestly believed that there were chemical weapons, Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons on his own people previously, he'd used them on his neighbor, the Iranians, and they believed he had those weapons. We believed he had those weapons.

QUESTION: That's where we call it non sequitur. It doesn't matter what the troops believe, it matters what you believe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Mr. Secretary, the debate is over. We have other questions, courtesy to the audience.

RUMSFELD: I guess over here.

QUESTION: Good grief. That's a hard act to follow. Now, it'd better be good.

RUMSFELD: You've forgotten your question.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, as a man much younger than you ...

RUMSFELD: Everybody is.

QUESTION: ... I've followed your career. And your passion for life and your positive outlook and your ability to deal with situations like the one over there are more than impressive. But for the sake of the audience, how about some comments about what happened in your childhood to make you the man you are today? This might help some parents. You're a great man.

RUMSFELD: Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

RUMSFELD: Thank you. I guess one thing I'd say is that my mom was a school teacher and my dad read history voraciously. And I guess I adopted some of those patterns of reading history. Yes?

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary ...

PHILLIPS: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld speaking here in Atlanta, Georgia at the Southern Center for International Studies at the history museum here in Atlanta.

As you know, within the past couple of weeks, Donald Rumsfeld taken a lot of heat for what he's doing Iraq and with the Iraq war. A lot of retired generals coming out and speaking against the secretary of defense. So we weren't really surprised when we saw a number of protesters at today's event.

Just a moment ago you heard a voice -- we're trying to put a face to that voice. We're being told that it's possibly Ray McGovern a 27- year CIA analyst who is at this event, and he was questioning Rumsfeld about intelligence and trying to hammer home on the point that there really, he believes, no proof between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

The secretary of defense obviously sticking by, saying he's not an intelligence expert but that he believed that everything that they had to go to war in Iraq was just. Once again, Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst there in the crowd, in addition to a couple other hecklers.

Are we going to listen to that sound as well? OK. You saw the pictures there, but we're going to continue to follow the Q&A. It's been pretty exciting thus far. We'll bring you the highlights, of course. Now we're talking about immigration control. And you're looking at a live picture -- or actually, no, that's tape of the Joe Arpaio, the Arizona sheriff who's earned a pretty strong reputation for doing what a lot of law enforcers might like to do but can't.

His latest project is a rude surprise for would-be immigrants who probably thought that they'd be sent right back across the boarder. CNN's Peter Viles investigated this for "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A perp walk you won't see anywhere else, illegal aliens arrested for allegedly agreeing to be smuggled into America and making the mistake of passing through Maricopa County, Arizona.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: I'm trying to get a message out to all the illegals from Mexico to say out of this county.

VILES: Maverick Sheriff Joe Arpaio believes Arizona's new anti- smuggling law applies not just to coyotes, but to the illegal aliens they transport.

ARPAIO: It's interpreted by the county attorney that those that are in conspiracy with the smuggler can also be locked up. I'm the only law enforcement agency doing it.

VILES: And doing it his way, using some of his vast posse of 3,000 volunteers to patrol the desert.

This volunteer helped round up nine illegals and two alleged smugglers Tuesday morning.

ANDREW RAMSAMMY, VOLUNTEER: When you get a phone call at 4:00 in the morning from the sheriff, you respond.

VILES: Arpaio's deputies have jailed 120 illegals this year, and this sheriff does not believe in catch and release.

ARPAIO: It's a felony, one-and-a-half years to three years to three years in prison if convicted. So, it's not a misdemeanor. I could very easily turn these people over to immigration. They get a free ride back to Mexico. Right now, they are getting a free ride to the jail.

VILES: Jail space is not a problem. Arpaio is the sheriff who built a tent city of jail cells.

RUSSELL PEARCE (R), ARIZONA STATE HOUSE: The message has to be loud and clear. We're not taking it anymore. You enter this country illegally, you're going to be arrested, you're going to be deported.

VILES: It's likely, though, the county will face a legal challenge in its use of the new law. At the state level, it is being used only to target the smugglers. (on camera): The sheriff bristled at the suggestion his posse is somehow similar to the Minutemen, saying his volunteer posse undergoes extensive professional training and is sworn in under the Arizona state constitution.

Peter Viles for CNN, Los Angeles.

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PHILLIPS: For more on the border debate, watch "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" every weeknight at 6:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

She's endured more at 13 than most adults can imagine. And she's told it all on Capitol Hill. In a moment, we're going to hear how a sexual predator with access to the Internet almost destroyed this little girl.

The news keeps coming. We'll keep bringing it to you. More LIVE FROM next.

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PHILLIPS: The top dog at a major defense contractor is taking some heat for a possible case of plagiarism. Susan Lisovicz live from the New York Stock Exchange with the details. Susan?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Kyra. We've talked a lot about the plagiarism scandal involving Harvard a book called "How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got a Life." Well this is another big institution in Massachusetts and it is another plagiarism scandal.

This one involved the huge defense contractor Raytheon, which is docking the pay of its CEO William H. Swanson, there you see him, for failing to give credit for material that was in a management booklet that he wrote. Raytheon distributed more than 300,000 copies of this little book called "Swanson's Unwritten Rules of Managements." And as a result, he was perceived as a folksy, management guru, earning him praise from such rock star CEOs as Jack Welch and Warren Buffett.

Well now Raytheon is reportedly taking away nearly $1 million from Swanson's compensation this year cutting his salary and stock awards, but not other forms of compensation. He'll still get a bonus, he'll still get perks like use of the company jet and payment of his taxes and life insurance.

What he apparently did here, Kyra, was he borrowed quite heavily from an engineering classic issued about 50 years ago, almost word for word from some of the rules in that book. Kyra?

PHILLIPS: So what were some of the rules in the book?

LISOVICZ: Well, for instance, of the 33 rules, Kyra, 17 of them were taken from this book that I mentioned. It was called "The Unwritten Laws of Engineering." Even the title is similar, it was written by an engineer called W.J. King. Two of those, for instance, we'll just give you an example. Cultivate the habit of boiling matters down to the simplest terms. Or No. 21, don't get excited in engineering emergencies, keep your feet on the ground.

Not only are these ideas the same, they're almost word for word from the 1944 book. The similarity was discovered by a chemical engineer in San Diego who happened to have the book on hand. He writes a blog, the media picked up on it. And you know, the rest is history.

But there were other inspirations, Kyra. Swanson also borrowed from Donald Rumsfeld, the defense secretary we've been seeing this afternoon speaking in Atlanta.

Rule No. 1, in both Swanson's book and in an article the defense secretary published in the "Wall Street Journal" was learn to say I don't know. If used when appropriate, it will be used often.

What apparently he didn't know was that you should really source, give credit, when you are lifting passages and putting them in publications.

PHILLIPS: Fifty years ago, though, he's probably thinking no one's going to remember, right?

LISOVICZ: Well, in the information age it's a totally different story. And it wasn't one rule. It was basically half of the booklet. Also even there was another from Dave Barry, the humorist. So his inspirations were widespread -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, what's happening on Wall Street?

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PHILLIPS: All right, Susan, thanks. Well don't forget, it's not just fame, it's fame and fortune. CNN's Brooke Anderson here with today's entertainment news, including who's getting paid, how much for what? Hey, Brooke.

BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Kyra. The question is, are the stars really worth what they're getting paid? In the new issue of "Entertainment Weekly," the magazine rates the top stars and their salaries.

Among those whose asking prices are said to have become too high, funny man Jim Carrey, former "SNL" star Will Ferrell, stand-up comedian turned actor Eddie Murphy and this lady, Oscar-winner Nicole Kidman.

Carrey's paycheck had once hit $25 million. But his recent film "Fun with Dick and Jane" barely topped $100 million domestically. Ferrell and Murphy have both seen their paydays reach $20 million, but they're being considered risky and too pricey. Studio executives are saying the cost of movie-making us going up, therefore stars' salaries must come down. OK, Pearl Jam is back -- back with a new album. And the band is talking about what their fans can expect.

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EDDIE VEDDER, PEARL JAM: It's a great place to come to and exercise our feelings and demons and emotions. Otherwise I'm not sure how they would have manifested themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: AOL Music will have an AOL Sessions performance by Pearl Jam right after the release of their eighth album this week. Fans will be able to watch the band perform intimate versions of their new single, "Worldwide Suicide," as well as other songs from the album.

Music news now, Axl Rose is going to share the stage with the Rolling Stones. Guns N' Roses will open two German dates on the Rolling Stones upcoming tour of Europe. Now the band last performed during the Stones 1989 U.S. tour. Rose is the only original member still performing with the Guns N' Roses.

OK, tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT," we've got a reality check. The star of one of T.V.'s biggest reality shows reveals she has an eating disorder and a drinking problem. So how come she's not being kicked off the show? "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" asks the tough questions. Kyra, that is at 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. Eastern, CNN Headline Prime.

PHILLIPS: All right Brooke, thank you.

And a reminder, if you have an insurance fear or frustration, we want to hear from you. E-mail us at LIVEFROM@CNN.com. Carolyn Gorman of the Insurance Information Institute will answer your questions, that's in the next hour of LIVE FROM.

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