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CNN Live Today

Likelihood of Having to Fight Through Streets of Baghdad Increasing

Aired March 28, 2003 - 11:52   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Thought it was pretty interesting to listen to Barbara Starr's report a short time ago, talking about the Medina Division, one of the best Republican Guard divisions, now said to be at 65 percent strength, which indicates the air war above the Medina Division has degraded a good number, a good portion, anyway, of that Medina Division, if, indeed, that report holds up.
Let's find out also what's happening on the battlefield. Renay San Miguel standing by with general, David Grange, at the CNN Center -- Renay.

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill. Yes, as you just heard Alex Perry tell us, units from the coalition are getting closer and closer to Baghdad. That means the battlefield goes from the desert to concrete and steel and urban landscapes. We're going to talk about urban warfare right now.

And General, we've got some animations showing what this might look on the approach to Baghdad. I'm wondering who is coordinating in the battlefield all of these different elements that we're about to see -- the ground troops, the air cover and the armor that's in there.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, it's a ground commander that has a combined-arm team. It's air. It's ground. It's helicopter. It's foot soldiers, vehicles. The first thing is, you have to either infiltrate a point in the city or establish a foothold so you can break into the city. And then you move to specific objectives that are key terrain, critical points within the urban area that affect the battlefield. There's some things -- long-range fires are negated in a situation like this. Everything is close-range fires, which takes away some of the prowess of some of the fighting vehicles. It becomes a foot infantry, Marine- type battle, close combat. So it's very close-up type warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: And the danger to civilians, obviously, increase with that kind of situation.

GRANGE: Absolutely. Civilians are in danger as you try to sort out the battlefield. Very confusing.

SAN MIGUEL: So how would you train for a situation like that?

GRANGE: Well, most of the Army units, and also Marine units, in our armed forces throughout the United States and in Europe train on urban combat, a very critical training requirement, just like training in jungles or desert or mountains. And it's very difficult. Command and control is tough, knowing where your buddy is on your left and your right, in front of you, behind you. And it becomes a corporal, a sergeant's, a lieutenant's type battle because it is so close.

Vehicles are vulnerable in the city. They can take RPG fire. They can take sniper fire that will go after a commander with his or her head -- in this case, his head out of a turret. A lot of smoke and dust. Casualties are difficult to deal with. A lot of ammunition is used. Engineers are required to blow holes in buildings to gain entry. A lot of fighting underneath the city, in the sewers, as well as in the rooftops.

But it's a very demanding environment, and training is very extensive with all armed services, to prepare soldiers and Marines for this kind of warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: It seems like those tank commanders would really rely on the ground troops out in front of them to scout out and provide reconnaissance just around the corner.

GRANGE: Absolutely. Combined arms. A tank will die without dismounted infantry Marines on its left or right flank. And of course, the tank provides more lethal fire in certain areas within the city, as the infantrymen or the Marines are moving. Clearing rooms is difficult. You have to know what the composition of the walls and the doors are made of. Evacuating wounded, both military and civilian, is a constant requirement. And then getting the medical support into there to help those people is very tough. On the outside -- outskirts of the town, you may have heavy armored units firing supportive fire in support of those people breaking into the buildings.

SAN MIGUEL: We have -- very quickly, just wanted to touch on some of the -- maybe the images of urban warfare that our viewers are familiar with maybe from situations that we've seen in Beirut, which looks like, you know, very kind of disorganized. It looks like these guys are shooting all over the place. One was shooting at the house. The other one's been shooting, you know, across. You know, to try to get some kind of coordination going in all of this must be difficult.

GRANGE: Well, this is a good example of a lack of discipline in urban fighting. They are not fighting well. It's not coordinated. It's a lot of just rapid fire everywhere. And that's a problem in a city, when you're trying to control people, control your own forces, and eliminate the threat in the city as you're fighting. The U.S. military has had experience in this in Hue City, Vietnam, of course, Mogadishu in Somalia, Beirut and else where. So there's a lot of experience in the ranks within U.S. and British armed forces in urban warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: And some troops are about to gain some experience, it looks like, as the coalition gets closer to Baghdad.

GRANGE: And some is happened already in the south right now.

SAN MIGUEL: That's a good point. General Grange, thanks for your time. GRANGE: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: We do appreciate it. Bill, back over to you.

HEMMER: All right, Renay, thanks. Only a brigadier general like David Grange would know, when it comes to combat, what needs to be done in terms of communication and process on the battlefield. Thanks, Renay.

Paula, I'll kick it back to you. My duty is almost done here in Kuwait for yet another day on this Friday, but I'm assuming the two of us get to do it all over again tomorrow, on Saturday, is that right?

ZAHN: I'm operating on that assumption, too. Consider it a deal. I'll see you tomorrow morning at 7:00 AM Eastern time.

HEMMER: Sure thing. You got it.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill. Have a good rest of the evening there.

And as Bill gets up, Wolf Blitzer will be sitting in his seat. You'll be meeting him at the top of the hour. Meanwhile, we are keeping an eye on the skies over Baghdad, and we'll keep you up to date on the latest developments in the war on Iraq. And then we'll get the latest information from the White House, from a briefing that we are told will take place at 12:30, in just about 27 minutes -- excuse me, no, that would be 37 minutes from now. The White House briefing coming up in our next hour. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. We are now in the second day of the second week in the war against Iraq. And as U.S.-led troops march toward Baghdad, haunting images playing across TV screens at home. Here is a quick look back at some of the memorable moments that have riveted the nation this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very exciting, kind of scary at the same time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it was pitch black. I couldn't see anything. The helicopter, I landed right next to it. As soon as I hit, and I look over, there's the helicopter right next to me. I was just, like, Wow, lucked out there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a country that we're at war with. But since we jumped in Kurdish-controlled air, we felt a little bit better that we wouldn't be shot at as we were descending from the sky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're on the ground. How are the men feeling? What would they like to see happening here, as the hours develop this day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're digging in positions right now to just set up a perimeter, at first. And then we just take everything day by day as the situation develops.

COL. MIKE LINNINGTON, 101ST AIRBORNE, 3RD BRIGADE: I got a report that we had some infiltration down to our south, in a white SUV, with all the indications of being the same modus operandi of other paramilitaries that were working in the area. So we took them under apprehension and treated them as enemy prisoners of war.

CAPT. MICHAEL TITUS, 101ST AIRBORNE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) really limited on resources and assets. We're doing the best we can for them. We're working on getting them blankets, food and water and just some shelter to get them out of the wind and the elements.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think some of the people here are scared of you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not scared, but maybe intimidated, slightly intimidated. I mean, wouldn't anybody -- we would be if we saw soldiers in the streets of England.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You speak English?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how do you counter that? How do you try to make them (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Use a language assistant, you know, have a chat -- not just chat to them about what's going on out here, but try and build up a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you know, rapport between these people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it working?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for this hour of our coverage. We leave you with a live picture of Baghdad, almost 8:00 PM there now. After we take this short break, I will be joined by Wolf Blitzer and Leon Harris. Please stay with us. Thank you again for joining us today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Increasing>


Aired March 28, 2003 - 11:52   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Thought it was pretty interesting to listen to Barbara Starr's report a short time ago, talking about the Medina Division, one of the best Republican Guard divisions, now said to be at 65 percent strength, which indicates the air war above the Medina Division has degraded a good number, a good portion, anyway, of that Medina Division, if, indeed, that report holds up.
Let's find out also what's happening on the battlefield. Renay San Miguel standing by with general, David Grange, at the CNN Center -- Renay.

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill. Yes, as you just heard Alex Perry tell us, units from the coalition are getting closer and closer to Baghdad. That means the battlefield goes from the desert to concrete and steel and urban landscapes. We're going to talk about urban warfare right now.

And General, we've got some animations showing what this might look on the approach to Baghdad. I'm wondering who is coordinating in the battlefield all of these different elements that we're about to see -- the ground troops, the air cover and the armor that's in there.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, it's a ground commander that has a combined-arm team. It's air. It's ground. It's helicopter. It's foot soldiers, vehicles. The first thing is, you have to either infiltrate a point in the city or establish a foothold so you can break into the city. And then you move to specific objectives that are key terrain, critical points within the urban area that affect the battlefield. There's some things -- long-range fires are negated in a situation like this. Everything is close-range fires, which takes away some of the prowess of some of the fighting vehicles. It becomes a foot infantry, Marine- type battle, close combat. So it's very close-up type warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: And the danger to civilians, obviously, increase with that kind of situation.

GRANGE: Absolutely. Civilians are in danger as you try to sort out the battlefield. Very confusing.

SAN MIGUEL: So how would you train for a situation like that?

GRANGE: Well, most of the Army units, and also Marine units, in our armed forces throughout the United States and in Europe train on urban combat, a very critical training requirement, just like training in jungles or desert or mountains. And it's very difficult. Command and control is tough, knowing where your buddy is on your left and your right, in front of you, behind you. And it becomes a corporal, a sergeant's, a lieutenant's type battle because it is so close.

Vehicles are vulnerable in the city. They can take RPG fire. They can take sniper fire that will go after a commander with his or her head -- in this case, his head out of a turret. A lot of smoke and dust. Casualties are difficult to deal with. A lot of ammunition is used. Engineers are required to blow holes in buildings to gain entry. A lot of fighting underneath the city, in the sewers, as well as in the rooftops.

But it's a very demanding environment, and training is very extensive with all armed services, to prepare soldiers and Marines for this kind of warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: It seems like those tank commanders would really rely on the ground troops out in front of them to scout out and provide reconnaissance just around the corner.

GRANGE: Absolutely. Combined arms. A tank will die without dismounted infantry Marines on its left or right flank. And of course, the tank provides more lethal fire in certain areas within the city, as the infantrymen or the Marines are moving. Clearing rooms is difficult. You have to know what the composition of the walls and the doors are made of. Evacuating wounded, both military and civilian, is a constant requirement. And then getting the medical support into there to help those people is very tough. On the outside -- outskirts of the town, you may have heavy armored units firing supportive fire in support of those people breaking into the buildings.

SAN MIGUEL: We have -- very quickly, just wanted to touch on some of the -- maybe the images of urban warfare that our viewers are familiar with maybe from situations that we've seen in Beirut, which looks like, you know, very kind of disorganized. It looks like these guys are shooting all over the place. One was shooting at the house. The other one's been shooting, you know, across. You know, to try to get some kind of coordination going in all of this must be difficult.

GRANGE: Well, this is a good example of a lack of discipline in urban fighting. They are not fighting well. It's not coordinated. It's a lot of just rapid fire everywhere. And that's a problem in a city, when you're trying to control people, control your own forces, and eliminate the threat in the city as you're fighting. The U.S. military has had experience in this in Hue City, Vietnam, of course, Mogadishu in Somalia, Beirut and else where. So there's a lot of experience in the ranks within U.S. and British armed forces in urban warfare.

SAN MIGUEL: And some troops are about to gain some experience, it looks like, as the coalition gets closer to Baghdad.

GRANGE: And some is happened already in the south right now.

SAN MIGUEL: That's a good point. General Grange, thanks for your time. GRANGE: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: We do appreciate it. Bill, back over to you.

HEMMER: All right, Renay, thanks. Only a brigadier general like David Grange would know, when it comes to combat, what needs to be done in terms of communication and process on the battlefield. Thanks, Renay.

Paula, I'll kick it back to you. My duty is almost done here in Kuwait for yet another day on this Friday, but I'm assuming the two of us get to do it all over again tomorrow, on Saturday, is that right?

ZAHN: I'm operating on that assumption, too. Consider it a deal. I'll see you tomorrow morning at 7:00 AM Eastern time.

HEMMER: Sure thing. You got it.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill. Have a good rest of the evening there.

And as Bill gets up, Wolf Blitzer will be sitting in his seat. You'll be meeting him at the top of the hour. Meanwhile, we are keeping an eye on the skies over Baghdad, and we'll keep you up to date on the latest developments in the war on Iraq. And then we'll get the latest information from the White House, from a briefing that we are told will take place at 12:30, in just about 27 minutes -- excuse me, no, that would be 37 minutes from now. The White House briefing coming up in our next hour. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. We are now in the second day of the second week in the war against Iraq. And as U.S.-led troops march toward Baghdad, haunting images playing across TV screens at home. Here is a quick look back at some of the memorable moments that have riveted the nation this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very exciting, kind of scary at the same time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it was pitch black. I couldn't see anything. The helicopter, I landed right next to it. As soon as I hit, and I look over, there's the helicopter right next to me. I was just, like, Wow, lucked out there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a country that we're at war with. But since we jumped in Kurdish-controlled air, we felt a little bit better that we wouldn't be shot at as we were descending from the sky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're on the ground. How are the men feeling? What would they like to see happening here, as the hours develop this day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're digging in positions right now to just set up a perimeter, at first. And then we just take everything day by day as the situation develops.

COL. MIKE LINNINGTON, 101ST AIRBORNE, 3RD BRIGADE: I got a report that we had some infiltration down to our south, in a white SUV, with all the indications of being the same modus operandi of other paramilitaries that were working in the area. So we took them under apprehension and treated them as enemy prisoners of war.

CAPT. MICHAEL TITUS, 101ST AIRBORNE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) really limited on resources and assets. We're doing the best we can for them. We're working on getting them blankets, food and water and just some shelter to get them out of the wind and the elements.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think some of the people here are scared of you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not scared, but maybe intimidated, slightly intimidated. I mean, wouldn't anybody -- we would be if we saw soldiers in the streets of England.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You speak English?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how do you counter that? How do you try to make them (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Use a language assistant, you know, have a chat -- not just chat to them about what's going on out here, but try and build up a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you know, rapport between these people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it working?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for this hour of our coverage. We leave you with a live picture of Baghdad, almost 8:00 PM there now. After we take this short break, I will be joined by Wolf Blitzer and Leon Harris. Please stay with us. Thank you again for joining us today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Increasing>