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CNN Live Today

White House Apologizes for Abuse, Bush Does Not

Aired May 05, 2004 - 10:50   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Today a significant day in the War in Iraq. President Bush set to give two interviews to two different Arab language television networks, we're understanding. CNN has learned that at least one of those interview has taken place. Our Suzanne Malveaux at the White House has some information about what the president said in that interview -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, CNN has learned some of what the president said in the interview in Al-Hurra. I'm just going state what we know so far.

The president starts off the very first question here saying that the people in Iraq must understand that he considers this practice -- he says, "I view this practice as abhorrent." He is talking about the prison abuse.

When he is asked he says, "What took place in that prison does not represent the America that I know." He goes on to say the America that he knows is made up of people who are compassionate and who believe in freedom, that they promote freedom.

He goes on to say as well that in a democracy everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. He says these mistakes, however, will be investigated. And then he goes on to say that the people who are investigated and those who have made those mistakes will be brought to justice.

Daryn, this is what we expected. It is not an outright apology, but certainly a statement of regret, a statement saying that mistakes had been made. And, of course, the president roundly condemning this action -- Daryn.

KAGAN: So once again, to remind our viewers, he's to give two interviews today to two different Arab language networks. One to Al- Hurra, one to Al Arabiya. Al-Hurra is actually a U.S.-sponsored network that's based here in the U.S.

MALVEAUX: That's right, Daryn. And the other one is Al Arabiya. that's based out of the United Arab Emirates. These two interviews were selected because it was believed that the president could deliver his message directly to those in the Arab world, that it would reach a very wide audience.

The president is not giving an interview to Al-Jazeera based in Qatar. That is the one really that many people talk about very controversial. The U.S. has expressed a great deal of displeasure at times of what they consider to be an anti-American bent.

But we are told that they are very confident that the president's message is going to get to the people that it needs to get to. And this is something the White House has been taking very seriously. They've realize the kind of damage that has been done, political damage.

They also realize, as well, that U.S. soldiers, they believe, could be in danger, if there is such a sense of anger and outrage in a community, particularly in Iraq, that that could be taken out on U.S. forces.

KAGAN: You mentioned that what we know so far of his interview of Al-Hurra that he didn't out and out apologize for what has taken place inside those prisons and what those pictures would depict. But when National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice gave interviews yesterday, she did use the word sorry and apologize.

MALVEAUX: She certainly did. And it's essentially what the administration believes is that if they could get as many people out there as possible, top officials who are saying they regret this action, that this does not represent the United States, its value or its culture, they believe that eventually people will believe them. And those pictures, the force of those pictures, will somehow be weakened.

But, again, they realize this is an uphill battle for this administration. And they believe that they need to do this over and over again. But it's one reasons why the president coming out and interviewing today with two Arab language networks.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, stand by. I'm understand that we're actually in the process of actually getting some sound in from that interview with Al-Hurra.

While we do that, while we wait for that sound bite to be available, Suzanne, let me ask you this question. You were in the gaggle, the daily briefing of reporters that takes place at the White House. I understand there were questions asked about the future of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld?

MALVEAUX: Well absolutely. There are a lot of questions about that because as you know there are top lawmakers who have been calling for someone to be held accountable to this. Whether or not it is General Abizaid out of the region, Joint Chief of Staff's General Meyers, both those individuals who were told, who knew about the photos for some time.

The president actually was not notified about the existence of such photos until they aired, very much like the majority of Americans who actually saw those at that time.

But the administration saying -- White House spokesman Scott McClellan that the president was notified some time at least after January 16 because the Coalition Provisional Authority came out with a statement that that there were at least allegations of abuse taking place inside of the prison.

But the question here today, do you believe that Secretary Rumsfeld should resign? McClellan saying the president does not believe that. The other question, does the president still have full confidence in his secretary of defense? Again, McClellan saying, absolutely, yes.

So, it is still unclear just who is going to be held accountable, Daryn, when this is all said and done.

KAGAN: Suzanne, there are also calls out there for the U.S. to accept an international investigation for how detainees are being held and how they're treated. Any word on whether the White House would accept that?

MALVEAUX: Well, there's no word on that yet. So far what the White House has said is that they believe that the Pentagon with all its investigations will do the job that's necessary.

So far, we're looking at almost two dozen investigations now. They believe that they'll be able to get to the bottom of this, that they will hold those who are guilty accountable, that there are already very strong actions that have taken place.

But that is still remains a question, whether or not the administration will say, yes, we are open to international scrutiny.

KAGAN: It's amazing at which the speed that this story has developed. We heard Colin Powell, secretary of state, mention in a live news conference or just in answer and questions, he was making reference to Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt and saying he's mentioned this as early as March 20. Yet, it's just the photos have come out within the last week. And with that, the story has just taken off.

How long ago was the plan put together for the president to give these interviews?

MALVEAUX: Well certainly there's a great deal of frustration, not only from the State Department, but also from the White House because the Pentagon did essentially have a plan, a contingency plan to deal with the public relations fallout. They were looking at weeks in which they were able to put this together and put their message out there.

The White House did not have that advantage, neither did the State Department. It has only really been within the last week or so, even days that they have been able to coordinate their efforts and put this message out very strongly.

I should let you know that President Bush met with Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today. The two of them have been in constant communication about the best way to go about this, the statements that need to be made very forcefully and very publicly.

But, Daryn, it became very clear at least a couple of days ago that they were losing the public relations war on this one and they needed to take a much more aggressive act or step with this. And that is when they decided just days ago that they were going to go ahead with this aggressive campaign to put Dr. Rice out there, Secretary Powell, Secretary Rumsfeld. And then, finally, of course, the president.

KAGAN: All right, and speaking of the president, we're getting word now that we do have a piece of the interview that he gave within the last hour to Al-Hurra, an Arab-language network based here in the U.S. Let's listen to a bit of that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence of torture of that Iraqi prisoners by U.S. personnel has left many Iraqis and people in the Middle East (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the impression that the United States is no better than Saddam Hussein's regime, especially when those alleged tortures took place in the Abu Ghraib Prison, a symbol of torture of Iraqi prisoners.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can the U.S. do? I mean, what can we do to get out of this?

BUSH: First, people in Iraq must understand that I view those practices as abhorrent. They must also understand what took place in that prison does not represent America that I know.

The America I know is a compassionate country that believes in freedom. The America I know cares about every individual. The America I know has sent troops into Iraq to promote freedom. Good, honorable citizens that are helping Iraqis every day.

It's also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. But in a democracy, as well, those mistakes will be investigated and people will be brought to justice.

We're an open society. We're a society that is going to investigate fully, fully investigate in this case, what took place in that prison.

That stands in stark contrast to life under Saddam Hussein. His trained torturers were never brought to justice. There were no investigations about mistreatment of people. There will be investigations, people will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Been listening in to just a little bit of the interview that President Bush gave within the last hour to Al-Hurra, an Arab language network, talking about -- the president saying he knows this does not represent -- the pictures and the photos coming out of Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq -- does not represent the America that he knows. He says in a democracy everything is not perfect, making the promise that will be an investigation and the people responsible brought to justice.

Let's bring our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux back in. Suzanne, one of the problems in making the case to the Iraqi people and into the Arab world in general is there has not been serve sanctions to the people who have been claimed responsible for this up to this point. There have been no prison terms, there have only been -- the most severe punishment has been less than honorable discharges from the U.S. military.

MALVEAUX: Well, Daryn. that is up to the Pentagon, how they handle that. But one of the things that the administration believes is very important, that you heard the president talk about is to make this thing the issue between the Bush administration and how they're handling this and the regime of Saddam Hussein.

That is one thing. It's a comparison that is being made in the Middle East, that the White House is really quite concerned with, because you'll note that the president says over and over and over again, he makes the case that one of the main missions, of course, of the United States, was to go in there, rid the Iraqi people of this cruel regime that there are no more torture chambers, or rape rooms, things like that.

It is something the president says, and has not backed away from. In many of his speeches he made, as recently as just yesterday. That is something that a lot of people in the region have picked up on.

They believe that there are similarities between the Bush administration and Saddam Hussein's regime. And that is why the president went out of his way to make that the particular distinction.

KAGAN: And he does make that comparison. One of the problems with the incident and the photos, they take place at this particular prison, Abu Ghraib Prison, this is a prison that symbolizes and was the site of some of the most severe torture, considered one of Saddam Hussein's worst prisons. And here it is in American hands, at least appearing to the Iraqi and the Arab people, perhaps not any better.

MALVEAUX: One of the other concerns of course they have, is when you look at this June 30 deadline, transferring power back to the Iraqi people during that time, even selecting some of the members of that transitional government by the end of this month, they believe, of course if you don't have the cooperation of the Iraqis on the ground, leadership on the ground people who believe not only in the U.S. effort here, but the United Nations' effort that that is really a formula for disaster.

They are dealing with the Iraqis and just the fallout from that. They are also dealing with the opinions of the world community. You have the United Nations going through a process of trying to get a U.N. Security Council resolution up and running so that there's some sort of legitimacy or credibility here, in turning power over back to the Iraqi people.

But clearly, Daryn, it has been quite a blow to the administration, when it comes to the credibility issue. And that is what the administration is trying to get a handle on, again, get a handle on, and get out in front of this. But it is clear they are reacting to what has happened.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, we're going to have you stand by. Our coverage continues now.

For our viewers just joining us at the top of the hour, an extraordinary day coming out of the White House. President Bush giving interviews to two Arab language networks on the story, on the topic of the photos and alleged abuse taking place at Abu Ghraib Prison Iraq. We have with us Suzanne Malveaux. We also have our Judy Woodruff. With me to my left, we have Octavia Nasr, senior editor for Arab affairs.

Want to go ahead and bring Judy in. Judy, we were able to hear one sound bite so far of the interview he gave to Al-Hurra that is the Arab language network based in Virginia.

From what Suzanne's been able to report so far it does not appear we'll hear an all-out apology or the word sorry from the president of the U.S. Considering what has taken place in Iraq.

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: And, Daryn, I think people are going to be listening to the president's words very carefully, parsing whether he does use the word, I apologize, or Americans apologize.

As you and Suzanne have been discussing, the president's National Security Adviser, Condoleezza Rice did say, we're sorry, in effect, when she talked on some of these Arab television channels yesterday.

People will watch the president's words closely. You know there are only a few instances, but they do exist in American history, where presidents have stepped in and taken responsibility for major embarrassments in steps that the American government has taken.

For example, John F. Kennedy said he took responsibility after the Bay of Pigs disaster in Cuba. President Ronald Reagan took responsibility after the Iran-Contra scandal, back during the 1980s.

So people are going to be watching what this president says. Clearly, we are in the middle of an election year. A lot of questions right now, Daryn about the staying power of what happened and how the administration handles it.

KAGAN: All right Judy you stay with us, let's go ahead and bring in Octavia Nasr, our Senior Editor for Arab Affairs. How will this be playing in the Arab world?

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Everybody is watching, as Judy said, indeed, everybody is watching, everybody's waiting. They're going to hear every single word, weigh it in, and analyze it.

This is a big day for Arab media as far as the U.S. policy is concerned, as far as the U.S. Position on especially Iraq, is concerned. Leading up to this, the questions that were being asked. Why did the president choose Al Arabiya and Al-Hurra, an Egyptian newspaper, to give them interviews,

KAGAN: And leave out Al-Jazeera.

NASR: Right, leave out Al-Jazeera and other Arab networks. How did this come about, when was it decided. Is it a spur of the moment kind of thing? Who is going to conduct the interviews?

Did the White House choose the interviewers? Were the questions put forth in advance? Well we did our research. And what we found out questions were not put forth, forward put forward in advance.

The reporters were not chosen, at least from the Al Arabiya side of the story. Actually, a small anecdote on this, Al Arabiya would have had their bureau chief in D.C., conduct the interview, but the bureau chief happened to be in New York when the decision at the White House was made so they decided to send in the reporter Lahkmed Ahmed (ph) who, by the way, became a U.S. citizen just yesterday.

KAGAN: Oh, very interesting timing on that. Let's go back to the White House where Suzanne Malveaux has a little bit more on what's taking place in the interview -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn, we have a rough log, of the interview that the president gave with Al-Hurra. I'll just read a couple highlights here.

He was asked about who would be held accountable, whether it was the State Department, the Department of Defense. And what kind of process would be followed up here. The president does say that The United States will cooperate with the International Red Cross in working with them, to get to the bottom of this.

He also says that this does not reflect the hearts of the American people. That he was just as appalled as the Iraqi citizens. That if there are human rights violations here, that of course they will be taken care of. But he does seem to indicate that the U.S. will cooperate with the International Red Cross in getting to the bottom of this.

KAGAN: We'll let you look through that log a little more. We'll come back to you, Suzanne with other nuggets you can get from the interview that President Bush has given within last hour with Al-Hurra and Al Arabiya television networks based in Virginia.

Judy, let's bring you back in. A very interesting development, that the president saying he will work with the International Red Cross, a President that is very sensitive to the question that the U.S. will answer to any body, organize, besides the United States Government.

WOODRUFF: No question, because this administration, while they did work through the U.N. at one stage, or stages, leading up to the war in Iraq, it's clear that this administration in many ways has had a standoff view of the U.N. A real wariness about dealing with international organizations not just the U.N., but others as well. And, Daryn, I wanted to make two other quick points. In terms of the administration's decision to aggressively go after this, which Suzanne has been deciding, it was only yesterday that the president, out on the campaign trail, around the country on a bus tour talking about how steadfast his Iraq policy will be.

As late as yesterday afternoon, he was not commenting on the prisoner abuse story. So it is interesting how quickly the Administration has turned around and decided it's important to get the president himself out there.

And one other very quick point, CNN and "USA Today" and the Gallup organization, very recently conducted a poll in Iraq of something like 3,000, more than 3,000 Iraqi citizens.

And among other things, they asked Iraqis what television channels they watch. By far, 74 percent said they regularly watch Al- Iraqia. And I Know that Octavia can add to this information, 28 percent watch Al Arabiya. 27 percent Al-Jazeera. Only 6 percent watch Al-Hurra, which is one of the channels the president is giving an interview to. Of course this is only inside Iraq.

KAGAN: Inside Iraq, that's a very good point, Judy.

Let's bring Octavia back in here, there are two audiences here. There is the audience inside Iraq. Even bigger, the Arab audience all around the world.

The networks that the president and the White House have selected certain key populations that will not be reached by going with these networks that they've chosen.

NASR: Yes. Like the Americas are excluded. Asia is excluded. And Australia. And that's a huge chunk of the Arab-speaking population that would want to hear from the president, I'm sure.

The on the issue of the Red Cross, I find that very interesting. As a journalist. And think you and I would like to hear a follow-up question to this. In what capacity is the Red Cross to come in and help out in this?

Yesterday, as you know, the Condoleezza Rice, the National Security Adviser, was on Arab networks, was on Al-Jazeera, Al Arabiya and the LBC. Also as part of this damage control campaign.

One of the questions Al-Jazeera Washington bureau chief asked her is whether they're open to the idea of an international committee to investigate these crimes at Abu Ghraib and the answer was no. So it's interesting to hear that the Red Cross might be involved here, but I would love to hear a follow-up question on that.

KAGAN: To be fair to Suzanne, she got this log, she's looking through it helping us find out as much as possible as quickly as it is, and we will at some point have the entire interviews to be able to play for our audience here on CNN, so perhaps there was follow-up question. I think how Suzanne phrased it, said the president was willing to work with the International Red Cross. What working with will imply, we will have yet to see. Want to go to another point here and that is Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt.

He is, for many people, he is the military face of the U.S. in Baghdad. You see him in Iraq on a daily basis as part of the daily briefing from the Coalition Provisional Authority. He is also the one that first started mentioning that six people had been charged or arrested in connection with the investigation of what was taking place at this prison.

That was back on March 20. As late as last week, he mentioned that an investigation was taking place yet again, yet kind of downplayed it in his briefing. And it was because this story was running and the photos would come out on a CBS news program.

This, though, is today, how Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt talked about the situation, the investigation and the revelations as to what has been taking place inside Abu Ghraib Prison. Let's listen to that sound bite.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GENERAL MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: My army's been embarrassed by this. My army's been shamed by this. On behalf of my army, I apologize for what those soldiers did to your citizens. It was reprehensible and it was unacceptable and it was more than just words. We have to take those words into action and ensure that never happens again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Want to go back and bring Judy back into the conversation, to hear those strong, hard, emotional words from a U.S. Military leader. Pretty extraordinary, considering I know it was just a week ago today, we were playing the news conference live here in this program, and he was reading this investigation, almost as if it was just a list on the agenda, a housekeeping item, something he had to mention, and kind of brushed off some of the follow-up questions that some of the reporters were trying to ask about the investigation.

WOODRUFF: I think it's pretty clear that this administration has taken that it has taken time for this administration to realize the severity and the longer the long-lasting effect that this series of incidents could potentially have on American standing, not just in the Arab world, but internationally.

Because initially, I talked to individuals as well inside the administration. Who said, look, this happened, we're going to move on. Now they are saying they realize they've got to be out there, as Suzanne said a minute ago, they've got to be out there again and again and again to get the message out and hope that individuals in the Arab world and around the globe, for that matter, will accept.

The other piece of this, Daryn, is that the administration knew, as recent as long ago as January, about these abuses. These reports have been sitting on the desk of people at high levels in the administration for two months.

One report was finished on March the 3rd. Two months ago. And nothing was done, nothing was brought forward. So there is clearly an effort here just in the last 24 hours to recognize the severity of this and to try to begin to put out the fire.

KAGAN: In terms of how that information was coming out, we saw some very angry words from Senators from both sides of the aisle coming out yesterday, angry that members in the media were able to see the report about what had taken place inside the prison before even the Senate Armed Services Committee had been briefed on that.

WOODRUFF: Daryn, what's striking to me is that it's not just the Democrats. I mean, we this Washington is a very partisan place these days. It's not just Democrats, it is Republicans.

And from Senator John McCain, Senator John Warner, who is a very loyal supporter of the Bush administration, asking why didn't we know? How could this have happened? How high up does responsibility exist?

Everybody knows, Daryn, that these things are not allowed to happen simply because some very low-ranking member of the military decided to do it. Someone at a higher level had to have either been aware or said its fine, or was not paying attention.

And I think this all circles back to questions that were raised about, to what extent did the administration prepare for the aftermath of the war in Iraq? Because you had stories coming out now about just a handful of military soldiers watching over hundreds and hundreds of detainees. Again, raising questions about whether there are enough troops in place in Iraq, at the end of the first three to six weeks of combat.

KAGAN: Let's go ahead and expand our conversation and bring in Tom Malinowski he is the Washington Advocacy director for the Human Rights Watch. Tom, thank you for being with us this morning.

TOM MALINOWSKI, DIRECTOR WASHINGTON ADVOCACY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Thank you.

KAGAN: Your organization has written a letter to Condoleezza Rice, asking, it's a nine-point letter, asking for specific changes to take place in terms of how the detainees are held in Iraq, by the U.S. around the world. Have you received any response to that letter?

ALLENOWSKI: Not yet. We'll be meeting with administration officials to discuss those points. The real news from my point of view is we've been meeting with them for over a year and a half to discuss very similar points this story really is almost two years old.

The first allegations of abuse of interrogation tactics were brought out by "The Washington Post" in December of 2002. And, in fact, that month, we presented to administration officials, a stack of press clippings from around the world two inches thick, about stories and allegations of abuses in U.S. Facilities around the world. So, really, the smoke signals have been out there for a long time. And they should have acted to prevent the fire, rather than trying to put it out now.

KAGAN: We're going to continue our conversation, Tom, stay with us. We're doing this in a rolling news coverage sort of way.

Our Suzanne Malveaux has had a chance to look at the log that President Bush gave to Al-Hurra the Arab language network based in Virginia. I think you have more from that interview -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn we're getting a couple more details here. The president was asked after that little snippet that you saw whether or not he knew about these photos, these pictures, of these Iraqi prisoners who were being abused by U.S. soldiers.

And the president answers him, saying, that the first time I saw or heard about those photos, those pictures, were on television. That is something, of course, that a lot of people are asking questions about.

Why is it that the president didn't know that these photos existed? Why is it that he wasn't notified by his Defense Secretary? We know there's a time line that is being developed here. There's still a lot of questions about it. But we do know the Coalition Provisional Authority sent out a press release on January 16 saying there were allegations of abuse going on in that prison.

We have been told the president was notified some time after that that there were investigations that were going on, and that there was a report at least that had been completed some time in March.

Now, we asked Scott McClellan earlier today whether or not the president was aware of the results of that report in March, whether or not anyone in the White House knew about it.

He was not able to answer that question. He said to the best of his knowledge, he did not know if the president or anyone in the White House was aware of the results of that report.

There are a lot of questions here about the breakdown in communications, and what the president perhaps should have known from his own defense department -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Let's go ahead and bring Judy back into that conversation. Judy, Suzanne's reporting would seem to suggest an ongoing theme of the question of what did the president know and when did he know it?

WOODRUFF: Well, I have seen just this morning and I need to go back and figure determine which newspaper it was. But there is reporting out there Daryn, where, in the Defense Department is saying, and perhaps it was Secretary Rumsfeld. I do not remember. It was a Defense Department official.

Who was saying the White House was brought into these discussions about the accusations of abuse in Iraqi prisons several months ago. Now, the status of pictures I can't speak to that. I don't know. But I do know the Pentagon has been saying that the White House was brought into those briefings was made aware of this.

What we don't know, though, Daryn is in what detail. How much is it just one in a long list of items? As you said when General Kimmitt was talking to the press last week about this, it was just one of several items. Perhaps it was mentioned, but perhaps there was a little or no emphasis given to it.

Those are the kinds of questions we'll ask. But I think it is legitimate for reporters to ask when did Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld share this information with the White House? When did he speak to the president about it directly? Was there any mention of pictures? How detailed were those conversations? Those are all questions that the press is going to be asking.

KAGAN: Well and the heat has been on the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Suzanne Malveaux reported earlier that there were questions in the gaggle; will the Defense Secretary be asked to resign?

An adamant no from the White House. Secretary of State Colin Powell was out in front of the State Department earlier today. He took questions on the Defense Secretary. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Secretary Rumsfeld is hard at work, seeing what other investigatory efforts should be put into this matter. He is in touch with members of congress.

I'm sure I'll have a chance to discuss it when I'm up on the Hill this afternoon as well. We want to get all the information out so the American people understand what's happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: In terms of getting the story out, I want to bring Tom Malinowski back in he is with the Human Rights Watch, the Washington Advocacy director for that organization.

Tom, you were saying earlier before we went back to the White House that this story, some type of reporting, has been out there for almost two years. Is this a credible case of a picture telling 1,000 words, that there can be reports, people can talk about things, but simple photos get action that others haven't been able to do in two years of reporting?

MALINOWSKI: I think that's the saddest part of the story. We've known most of these facts for quite a long time. It took the pictures to really bring this out and to shock people and to shock the system into reacting and to shock the president into getting angry.

I wish the president had gotten angry when the first reports came out a couple of years ago, that these kinds of interrogation techniques might have been employed in U.S. Facilities around the world.

This was in Afghanistan. This was in facilities that were set up after September 11 to hold al Qaeda detainees around the world. This has been out there and should have been acted on before it was too late.

KAGAN: Tom Malinowski, with the Human Rights Watch. Thank you. Also thank you to our Judy woodruff, Suzanne Malveaux and to Octavia Nasr here with me in Atlanta.

Once again to explain what we're watching develop and unfold here on this historic day, President Bush giving two interviews to two Arab language networks, Al-Hurra and Al Arabiya. Parts of those interviews are being distributed as they are done. As they've been taped as they're aired on those Arab language networks, we'll share them with you here on CNN. Right now a chance to take a break, much more news after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We expect much more news out of the White House this morning. President Bush granting two interviews to two Arab language networks. Parts of those interviews have already been distributed.

As that becomes available, as the entire interviews are released, you will see them here on CNN. More on that ahead. As that's takes place, the Senate Intelligence Committee is holding a closed door hearing on the prison scandal in Iraq today.

Some lawmakers wanting to know why they weren't kept in the loop. They are calling for quick action to deal with the crisis. Two senators talked about their concerns earlier on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I certainly apologize. This is not what we stand for. And it's about time the president of the United States stands up and says that and it's about time that the military and the intelligence units take the kind of disciplinary action that this calls for. It's unacceptable.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: We're going to have to get some clear answers in the congress. I'm very disturbed in the Intelligence Committee we didn't have this report that's apparently available or at the Pentagon, we got it off NPR Web site.

Now, that's totally unacceptable. We're a part of this process and we have to make sure we ask the right questions and we're taking some actions also in the congress. But it's got to happen. It's got to happen quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Our process this morning, we're waiting for the entire interview of the first interview that was granted by President Bush to Al-Hurra, the Arab language network that is based in Virginia. We've seen a sound bite from that.

Also a log of the entire interview has been released. Our Suzanne Malveaux has that. She's been reading through it to tell us more about what the president had to say -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn, we have a little more of the transcript. As I mentioned before, the president was asked, when did he know about these photos, these pictures. He said that he did not know about it until it was on television. That's what he first saw and heard about these horrific photos.

But then he does go on to say in the interview, he make a point to say that General Kimmitt had an investigation taking place in early January, that was something the government was involved in, and that they were trying essentially trying to get information for who was responsible.

He said there are two tracks here. One of course is who is responsible for this abuse. The other he talks about here is to determine just how widespread this abuse is occurring. He goes on to say that he does not believe that it's widespread. But he does say that he had a conversation with Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today, that he told him to find the truth and then tell the Iraqi people and the world the truth.

The president was then asked, again, whether or not he had confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld. Does he was asked, does he expect anyone to step down. The president responded. This is his quote. He says, "Of course," when asked if he has confidence in the secretary of defense. "I've got some confidence in the secretary of defense and I've got confidence in the commanders on the ground in Iraq because they and our troops are doing great work on behalf of the Iraqi people."

Earlier, in the interview as well, he goes on to say, we have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency because we're a free society. So the president, again, defending his Secretary of Defense. But also making the point here that he was not aware of these photos -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, we'll let you go and do some more reporting and we'll see more of what the president had to say to Al- Hurra. That and much more is ahead also other news right now a break. CNN is back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired May 5, 2004 - 10:50   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Today a significant day in the War in Iraq. President Bush set to give two interviews to two different Arab language television networks, we're understanding. CNN has learned that at least one of those interview has taken place. Our Suzanne Malveaux at the White House has some information about what the president said in that interview -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, CNN has learned some of what the president said in the interview in Al-Hurra. I'm just going state what we know so far.

The president starts off the very first question here saying that the people in Iraq must understand that he considers this practice -- he says, "I view this practice as abhorrent." He is talking about the prison abuse.

When he is asked he says, "What took place in that prison does not represent the America that I know." He goes on to say the America that he knows is made up of people who are compassionate and who believe in freedom, that they promote freedom.

He goes on to say as well that in a democracy everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. He says these mistakes, however, will be investigated. And then he goes on to say that the people who are investigated and those who have made those mistakes will be brought to justice.

Daryn, this is what we expected. It is not an outright apology, but certainly a statement of regret, a statement saying that mistakes had been made. And, of course, the president roundly condemning this action -- Daryn.

KAGAN: So once again, to remind our viewers, he's to give two interviews today to two different Arab language networks. One to Al- Hurra, one to Al Arabiya. Al-Hurra is actually a U.S.-sponsored network that's based here in the U.S.

MALVEAUX: That's right, Daryn. And the other one is Al Arabiya. that's based out of the United Arab Emirates. These two interviews were selected because it was believed that the president could deliver his message directly to those in the Arab world, that it would reach a very wide audience.

The president is not giving an interview to Al-Jazeera based in Qatar. That is the one really that many people talk about very controversial. The U.S. has expressed a great deal of displeasure at times of what they consider to be an anti-American bent.

But we are told that they are very confident that the president's message is going to get to the people that it needs to get to. And this is something the White House has been taking very seriously. They've realize the kind of damage that has been done, political damage.

They also realize, as well, that U.S. soldiers, they believe, could be in danger, if there is such a sense of anger and outrage in a community, particularly in Iraq, that that could be taken out on U.S. forces.

KAGAN: You mentioned that what we know so far of his interview of Al-Hurra that he didn't out and out apologize for what has taken place inside those prisons and what those pictures would depict. But when National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice gave interviews yesterday, she did use the word sorry and apologize.

MALVEAUX: She certainly did. And it's essentially what the administration believes is that if they could get as many people out there as possible, top officials who are saying they regret this action, that this does not represent the United States, its value or its culture, they believe that eventually people will believe them. And those pictures, the force of those pictures, will somehow be weakened.

But, again, they realize this is an uphill battle for this administration. And they believe that they need to do this over and over again. But it's one reasons why the president coming out and interviewing today with two Arab language networks.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, stand by. I'm understand that we're actually in the process of actually getting some sound in from that interview with Al-Hurra.

While we do that, while we wait for that sound bite to be available, Suzanne, let me ask you this question. You were in the gaggle, the daily briefing of reporters that takes place at the White House. I understand there were questions asked about the future of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld?

MALVEAUX: Well absolutely. There are a lot of questions about that because as you know there are top lawmakers who have been calling for someone to be held accountable to this. Whether or not it is General Abizaid out of the region, Joint Chief of Staff's General Meyers, both those individuals who were told, who knew about the photos for some time.

The president actually was not notified about the existence of such photos until they aired, very much like the majority of Americans who actually saw those at that time.

But the administration saying -- White House spokesman Scott McClellan that the president was notified some time at least after January 16 because the Coalition Provisional Authority came out with a statement that that there were at least allegations of abuse taking place inside of the prison.

But the question here today, do you believe that Secretary Rumsfeld should resign? McClellan saying the president does not believe that. The other question, does the president still have full confidence in his secretary of defense? Again, McClellan saying, absolutely, yes.

So, it is still unclear just who is going to be held accountable, Daryn, when this is all said and done.

KAGAN: Suzanne, there are also calls out there for the U.S. to accept an international investigation for how detainees are being held and how they're treated. Any word on whether the White House would accept that?

MALVEAUX: Well, there's no word on that yet. So far what the White House has said is that they believe that the Pentagon with all its investigations will do the job that's necessary.

So far, we're looking at almost two dozen investigations now. They believe that they'll be able to get to the bottom of this, that they will hold those who are guilty accountable, that there are already very strong actions that have taken place.

But that is still remains a question, whether or not the administration will say, yes, we are open to international scrutiny.

KAGAN: It's amazing at which the speed that this story has developed. We heard Colin Powell, secretary of state, mention in a live news conference or just in answer and questions, he was making reference to Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt and saying he's mentioned this as early as March 20. Yet, it's just the photos have come out within the last week. And with that, the story has just taken off.

How long ago was the plan put together for the president to give these interviews?

MALVEAUX: Well certainly there's a great deal of frustration, not only from the State Department, but also from the White House because the Pentagon did essentially have a plan, a contingency plan to deal with the public relations fallout. They were looking at weeks in which they were able to put this together and put their message out there.

The White House did not have that advantage, neither did the State Department. It has only really been within the last week or so, even days that they have been able to coordinate their efforts and put this message out very strongly.

I should let you know that President Bush met with Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today. The two of them have been in constant communication about the best way to go about this, the statements that need to be made very forcefully and very publicly.

But, Daryn, it became very clear at least a couple of days ago that they were losing the public relations war on this one and they needed to take a much more aggressive act or step with this. And that is when they decided just days ago that they were going to go ahead with this aggressive campaign to put Dr. Rice out there, Secretary Powell, Secretary Rumsfeld. And then, finally, of course, the president.

KAGAN: All right, and speaking of the president, we're getting word now that we do have a piece of the interview that he gave within the last hour to Al-Hurra, an Arab-language network based here in the U.S. Let's listen to a bit of that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence of torture of that Iraqi prisoners by U.S. personnel has left many Iraqis and people in the Middle East (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the impression that the United States is no better than Saddam Hussein's regime, especially when those alleged tortures took place in the Abu Ghraib Prison, a symbol of torture of Iraqi prisoners.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can the U.S. do? I mean, what can we do to get out of this?

BUSH: First, people in Iraq must understand that I view those practices as abhorrent. They must also understand what took place in that prison does not represent America that I know.

The America I know is a compassionate country that believes in freedom. The America I know cares about every individual. The America I know has sent troops into Iraq to promote freedom. Good, honorable citizens that are helping Iraqis every day.

It's also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. But in a democracy, as well, those mistakes will be investigated and people will be brought to justice.

We're an open society. We're a society that is going to investigate fully, fully investigate in this case, what took place in that prison.

That stands in stark contrast to life under Saddam Hussein. His trained torturers were never brought to justice. There were no investigations about mistreatment of people. There will be investigations, people will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Been listening in to just a little bit of the interview that President Bush gave within the last hour to Al-Hurra, an Arab language network, talking about -- the president saying he knows this does not represent -- the pictures and the photos coming out of Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq -- does not represent the America that he knows. He says in a democracy everything is not perfect, making the promise that will be an investigation and the people responsible brought to justice.

Let's bring our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux back in. Suzanne, one of the problems in making the case to the Iraqi people and into the Arab world in general is there has not been serve sanctions to the people who have been claimed responsible for this up to this point. There have been no prison terms, there have only been -- the most severe punishment has been less than honorable discharges from the U.S. military.

MALVEAUX: Well, Daryn. that is up to the Pentagon, how they handle that. But one of the things that the administration believes is very important, that you heard the president talk about is to make this thing the issue between the Bush administration and how they're handling this and the regime of Saddam Hussein.

That is one thing. It's a comparison that is being made in the Middle East, that the White House is really quite concerned with, because you'll note that the president says over and over and over again, he makes the case that one of the main missions, of course, of the United States, was to go in there, rid the Iraqi people of this cruel regime that there are no more torture chambers, or rape rooms, things like that.

It is something the president says, and has not backed away from. In many of his speeches he made, as recently as just yesterday. That is something that a lot of people in the region have picked up on.

They believe that there are similarities between the Bush administration and Saddam Hussein's regime. And that is why the president went out of his way to make that the particular distinction.

KAGAN: And he does make that comparison. One of the problems with the incident and the photos, they take place at this particular prison, Abu Ghraib Prison, this is a prison that symbolizes and was the site of some of the most severe torture, considered one of Saddam Hussein's worst prisons. And here it is in American hands, at least appearing to the Iraqi and the Arab people, perhaps not any better.

MALVEAUX: One of the other concerns of course they have, is when you look at this June 30 deadline, transferring power back to the Iraqi people during that time, even selecting some of the members of that transitional government by the end of this month, they believe, of course if you don't have the cooperation of the Iraqis on the ground, leadership on the ground people who believe not only in the U.S. effort here, but the United Nations' effort that that is really a formula for disaster.

They are dealing with the Iraqis and just the fallout from that. They are also dealing with the opinions of the world community. You have the United Nations going through a process of trying to get a U.N. Security Council resolution up and running so that there's some sort of legitimacy or credibility here, in turning power over back to the Iraqi people.

But clearly, Daryn, it has been quite a blow to the administration, when it comes to the credibility issue. And that is what the administration is trying to get a handle on, again, get a handle on, and get out in front of this. But it is clear they are reacting to what has happened.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, we're going to have you stand by. Our coverage continues now.

For our viewers just joining us at the top of the hour, an extraordinary day coming out of the White House. President Bush giving interviews to two Arab language networks on the story, on the topic of the photos and alleged abuse taking place at Abu Ghraib Prison Iraq. We have with us Suzanne Malveaux. We also have our Judy Woodruff. With me to my left, we have Octavia Nasr, senior editor for Arab affairs.

Want to go ahead and bring Judy in. Judy, we were able to hear one sound bite so far of the interview he gave to Al-Hurra that is the Arab language network based in Virginia.

From what Suzanne's been able to report so far it does not appear we'll hear an all-out apology or the word sorry from the president of the U.S. Considering what has taken place in Iraq.

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: And, Daryn, I think people are going to be listening to the president's words very carefully, parsing whether he does use the word, I apologize, or Americans apologize.

As you and Suzanne have been discussing, the president's National Security Adviser, Condoleezza Rice did say, we're sorry, in effect, when she talked on some of these Arab television channels yesterday.

People will watch the president's words closely. You know there are only a few instances, but they do exist in American history, where presidents have stepped in and taken responsibility for major embarrassments in steps that the American government has taken.

For example, John F. Kennedy said he took responsibility after the Bay of Pigs disaster in Cuba. President Ronald Reagan took responsibility after the Iran-Contra scandal, back during the 1980s.

So people are going to be watching what this president says. Clearly, we are in the middle of an election year. A lot of questions right now, Daryn about the staying power of what happened and how the administration handles it.

KAGAN: All right Judy you stay with us, let's go ahead and bring in Octavia Nasr, our Senior Editor for Arab Affairs. How will this be playing in the Arab world?

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Everybody is watching, as Judy said, indeed, everybody is watching, everybody's waiting. They're going to hear every single word, weigh it in, and analyze it.

This is a big day for Arab media as far as the U.S. policy is concerned, as far as the U.S. Position on especially Iraq, is concerned. Leading up to this, the questions that were being asked. Why did the president choose Al Arabiya and Al-Hurra, an Egyptian newspaper, to give them interviews,

KAGAN: And leave out Al-Jazeera.

NASR: Right, leave out Al-Jazeera and other Arab networks. How did this come about, when was it decided. Is it a spur of the moment kind of thing? Who is going to conduct the interviews?

Did the White House choose the interviewers? Were the questions put forth in advance? Well we did our research. And what we found out questions were not put forth, forward put forward in advance.

The reporters were not chosen, at least from the Al Arabiya side of the story. Actually, a small anecdote on this, Al Arabiya would have had their bureau chief in D.C., conduct the interview, but the bureau chief happened to be in New York when the decision at the White House was made so they decided to send in the reporter Lahkmed Ahmed (ph) who, by the way, became a U.S. citizen just yesterday.

KAGAN: Oh, very interesting timing on that. Let's go back to the White House where Suzanne Malveaux has a little bit more on what's taking place in the interview -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn, we have a rough log, of the interview that the president gave with Al-Hurra. I'll just read a couple highlights here.

He was asked about who would be held accountable, whether it was the State Department, the Department of Defense. And what kind of process would be followed up here. The president does say that The United States will cooperate with the International Red Cross in working with them, to get to the bottom of this.

He also says that this does not reflect the hearts of the American people. That he was just as appalled as the Iraqi citizens. That if there are human rights violations here, that of course they will be taken care of. But he does seem to indicate that the U.S. will cooperate with the International Red Cross in getting to the bottom of this.

KAGAN: We'll let you look through that log a little more. We'll come back to you, Suzanne with other nuggets you can get from the interview that President Bush has given within last hour with Al-Hurra and Al Arabiya television networks based in Virginia.

Judy, let's bring you back in. A very interesting development, that the president saying he will work with the International Red Cross, a President that is very sensitive to the question that the U.S. will answer to any body, organize, besides the United States Government.

WOODRUFF: No question, because this administration, while they did work through the U.N. at one stage, or stages, leading up to the war in Iraq, it's clear that this administration in many ways has had a standoff view of the U.N. A real wariness about dealing with international organizations not just the U.N., but others as well. And, Daryn, I wanted to make two other quick points. In terms of the administration's decision to aggressively go after this, which Suzanne has been deciding, it was only yesterday that the president, out on the campaign trail, around the country on a bus tour talking about how steadfast his Iraq policy will be.

As late as yesterday afternoon, he was not commenting on the prisoner abuse story. So it is interesting how quickly the Administration has turned around and decided it's important to get the president himself out there.

And one other very quick point, CNN and "USA Today" and the Gallup organization, very recently conducted a poll in Iraq of something like 3,000, more than 3,000 Iraqi citizens.

And among other things, they asked Iraqis what television channels they watch. By far, 74 percent said they regularly watch Al- Iraqia. And I Know that Octavia can add to this information, 28 percent watch Al Arabiya. 27 percent Al-Jazeera. Only 6 percent watch Al-Hurra, which is one of the channels the president is giving an interview to. Of course this is only inside Iraq.

KAGAN: Inside Iraq, that's a very good point, Judy.

Let's bring Octavia back in here, there are two audiences here. There is the audience inside Iraq. Even bigger, the Arab audience all around the world.

The networks that the president and the White House have selected certain key populations that will not be reached by going with these networks that they've chosen.

NASR: Yes. Like the Americas are excluded. Asia is excluded. And Australia. And that's a huge chunk of the Arab-speaking population that would want to hear from the president, I'm sure.

The on the issue of the Red Cross, I find that very interesting. As a journalist. And think you and I would like to hear a follow-up question to this. In what capacity is the Red Cross to come in and help out in this?

Yesterday, as you know, the Condoleezza Rice, the National Security Adviser, was on Arab networks, was on Al-Jazeera, Al Arabiya and the LBC. Also as part of this damage control campaign.

One of the questions Al-Jazeera Washington bureau chief asked her is whether they're open to the idea of an international committee to investigate these crimes at Abu Ghraib and the answer was no. So it's interesting to hear that the Red Cross might be involved here, but I would love to hear a follow-up question on that.

KAGAN: To be fair to Suzanne, she got this log, she's looking through it helping us find out as much as possible as quickly as it is, and we will at some point have the entire interviews to be able to play for our audience here on CNN, so perhaps there was follow-up question. I think how Suzanne phrased it, said the president was willing to work with the International Red Cross. What working with will imply, we will have yet to see. Want to go to another point here and that is Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt.

He is, for many people, he is the military face of the U.S. in Baghdad. You see him in Iraq on a daily basis as part of the daily briefing from the Coalition Provisional Authority. He is also the one that first started mentioning that six people had been charged or arrested in connection with the investigation of what was taking place at this prison.

That was back on March 20. As late as last week, he mentioned that an investigation was taking place yet again, yet kind of downplayed it in his briefing. And it was because this story was running and the photos would come out on a CBS news program.

This, though, is today, how Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt talked about the situation, the investigation and the revelations as to what has been taking place inside Abu Ghraib Prison. Let's listen to that sound bite.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GENERAL MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: My army's been embarrassed by this. My army's been shamed by this. On behalf of my army, I apologize for what those soldiers did to your citizens. It was reprehensible and it was unacceptable and it was more than just words. We have to take those words into action and ensure that never happens again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Want to go back and bring Judy back into the conversation, to hear those strong, hard, emotional words from a U.S. Military leader. Pretty extraordinary, considering I know it was just a week ago today, we were playing the news conference live here in this program, and he was reading this investigation, almost as if it was just a list on the agenda, a housekeeping item, something he had to mention, and kind of brushed off some of the follow-up questions that some of the reporters were trying to ask about the investigation.

WOODRUFF: I think it's pretty clear that this administration has taken that it has taken time for this administration to realize the severity and the longer the long-lasting effect that this series of incidents could potentially have on American standing, not just in the Arab world, but internationally.

Because initially, I talked to individuals as well inside the administration. Who said, look, this happened, we're going to move on. Now they are saying they realize they've got to be out there, as Suzanne said a minute ago, they've got to be out there again and again and again to get the message out and hope that individuals in the Arab world and around the globe, for that matter, will accept.

The other piece of this, Daryn, is that the administration knew, as recent as long ago as January, about these abuses. These reports have been sitting on the desk of people at high levels in the administration for two months.

One report was finished on March the 3rd. Two months ago. And nothing was done, nothing was brought forward. So there is clearly an effort here just in the last 24 hours to recognize the severity of this and to try to begin to put out the fire.

KAGAN: In terms of how that information was coming out, we saw some very angry words from Senators from both sides of the aisle coming out yesterday, angry that members in the media were able to see the report about what had taken place inside the prison before even the Senate Armed Services Committee had been briefed on that.

WOODRUFF: Daryn, what's striking to me is that it's not just the Democrats. I mean, we this Washington is a very partisan place these days. It's not just Democrats, it is Republicans.

And from Senator John McCain, Senator John Warner, who is a very loyal supporter of the Bush administration, asking why didn't we know? How could this have happened? How high up does responsibility exist?

Everybody knows, Daryn, that these things are not allowed to happen simply because some very low-ranking member of the military decided to do it. Someone at a higher level had to have either been aware or said its fine, or was not paying attention.

And I think this all circles back to questions that were raised about, to what extent did the administration prepare for the aftermath of the war in Iraq? Because you had stories coming out now about just a handful of military soldiers watching over hundreds and hundreds of detainees. Again, raising questions about whether there are enough troops in place in Iraq, at the end of the first three to six weeks of combat.

KAGAN: Let's go ahead and expand our conversation and bring in Tom Malinowski he is the Washington Advocacy director for the Human Rights Watch. Tom, thank you for being with us this morning.

TOM MALINOWSKI, DIRECTOR WASHINGTON ADVOCACY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Thank you.

KAGAN: Your organization has written a letter to Condoleezza Rice, asking, it's a nine-point letter, asking for specific changes to take place in terms of how the detainees are held in Iraq, by the U.S. around the world. Have you received any response to that letter?

ALLENOWSKI: Not yet. We'll be meeting with administration officials to discuss those points. The real news from my point of view is we've been meeting with them for over a year and a half to discuss very similar points this story really is almost two years old.

The first allegations of abuse of interrogation tactics were brought out by "The Washington Post" in December of 2002. And, in fact, that month, we presented to administration officials, a stack of press clippings from around the world two inches thick, about stories and allegations of abuses in U.S. Facilities around the world. So, really, the smoke signals have been out there for a long time. And they should have acted to prevent the fire, rather than trying to put it out now.

KAGAN: We're going to continue our conversation, Tom, stay with us. We're doing this in a rolling news coverage sort of way.

Our Suzanne Malveaux has had a chance to look at the log that President Bush gave to Al-Hurra the Arab language network based in Virginia. I think you have more from that interview -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn we're getting a couple more details here. The president was asked after that little snippet that you saw whether or not he knew about these photos, these pictures, of these Iraqi prisoners who were being abused by U.S. soldiers.

And the president answers him, saying, that the first time I saw or heard about those photos, those pictures, were on television. That is something, of course, that a lot of people are asking questions about.

Why is it that the president didn't know that these photos existed? Why is it that he wasn't notified by his Defense Secretary? We know there's a time line that is being developed here. There's still a lot of questions about it. But we do know the Coalition Provisional Authority sent out a press release on January 16 saying there were allegations of abuse going on in that prison.

We have been told the president was notified some time after that that there were investigations that were going on, and that there was a report at least that had been completed some time in March.

Now, we asked Scott McClellan earlier today whether or not the president was aware of the results of that report in March, whether or not anyone in the White House knew about it.

He was not able to answer that question. He said to the best of his knowledge, he did not know if the president or anyone in the White House was aware of the results of that report.

There are a lot of questions here about the breakdown in communications, and what the president perhaps should have known from his own defense department -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Let's go ahead and bring Judy back into that conversation. Judy, Suzanne's reporting would seem to suggest an ongoing theme of the question of what did the president know and when did he know it?

WOODRUFF: Well, I have seen just this morning and I need to go back and figure determine which newspaper it was. But there is reporting out there Daryn, where, in the Defense Department is saying, and perhaps it was Secretary Rumsfeld. I do not remember. It was a Defense Department official.

Who was saying the White House was brought into these discussions about the accusations of abuse in Iraqi prisons several months ago. Now, the status of pictures I can't speak to that. I don't know. But I do know the Pentagon has been saying that the White House was brought into those briefings was made aware of this.

What we don't know, though, Daryn is in what detail. How much is it just one in a long list of items? As you said when General Kimmitt was talking to the press last week about this, it was just one of several items. Perhaps it was mentioned, but perhaps there was a little or no emphasis given to it.

Those are the kinds of questions we'll ask. But I think it is legitimate for reporters to ask when did Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld share this information with the White House? When did he speak to the president about it directly? Was there any mention of pictures? How detailed were those conversations? Those are all questions that the press is going to be asking.

KAGAN: Well and the heat has been on the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Suzanne Malveaux reported earlier that there were questions in the gaggle; will the Defense Secretary be asked to resign?

An adamant no from the White House. Secretary of State Colin Powell was out in front of the State Department earlier today. He took questions on the Defense Secretary. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Secretary Rumsfeld is hard at work, seeing what other investigatory efforts should be put into this matter. He is in touch with members of congress.

I'm sure I'll have a chance to discuss it when I'm up on the Hill this afternoon as well. We want to get all the information out so the American people understand what's happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: In terms of getting the story out, I want to bring Tom Malinowski back in he is with the Human Rights Watch, the Washington Advocacy director for that organization.

Tom, you were saying earlier before we went back to the White House that this story, some type of reporting, has been out there for almost two years. Is this a credible case of a picture telling 1,000 words, that there can be reports, people can talk about things, but simple photos get action that others haven't been able to do in two years of reporting?

MALINOWSKI: I think that's the saddest part of the story. We've known most of these facts for quite a long time. It took the pictures to really bring this out and to shock people and to shock the system into reacting and to shock the president into getting angry.

I wish the president had gotten angry when the first reports came out a couple of years ago, that these kinds of interrogation techniques might have been employed in U.S. Facilities around the world.

This was in Afghanistan. This was in facilities that were set up after September 11 to hold al Qaeda detainees around the world. This has been out there and should have been acted on before it was too late.

KAGAN: Tom Malinowski, with the Human Rights Watch. Thank you. Also thank you to our Judy woodruff, Suzanne Malveaux and to Octavia Nasr here with me in Atlanta.

Once again to explain what we're watching develop and unfold here on this historic day, President Bush giving two interviews to two Arab language networks, Al-Hurra and Al Arabiya. Parts of those interviews are being distributed as they are done. As they've been taped as they're aired on those Arab language networks, we'll share them with you here on CNN. Right now a chance to take a break, much more news after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We expect much more news out of the White House this morning. President Bush granting two interviews to two Arab language networks. Parts of those interviews have already been distributed.

As that becomes available, as the entire interviews are released, you will see them here on CNN. More on that ahead. As that's takes place, the Senate Intelligence Committee is holding a closed door hearing on the prison scandal in Iraq today.

Some lawmakers wanting to know why they weren't kept in the loop. They are calling for quick action to deal with the crisis. Two senators talked about their concerns earlier on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I certainly apologize. This is not what we stand for. And it's about time the president of the United States stands up and says that and it's about time that the military and the intelligence units take the kind of disciplinary action that this calls for. It's unacceptable.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: We're going to have to get some clear answers in the congress. I'm very disturbed in the Intelligence Committee we didn't have this report that's apparently available or at the Pentagon, we got it off NPR Web site.

Now, that's totally unacceptable. We're a part of this process and we have to make sure we ask the right questions and we're taking some actions also in the congress. But it's got to happen. It's got to happen quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Our process this morning, we're waiting for the entire interview of the first interview that was granted by President Bush to Al-Hurra, the Arab language network that is based in Virginia. We've seen a sound bite from that.

Also a log of the entire interview has been released. Our Suzanne Malveaux has that. She's been reading through it to tell us more about what the president had to say -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Daryn, we have a little more of the transcript. As I mentioned before, the president was asked, when did he know about these photos, these pictures. He said that he did not know about it until it was on television. That's what he first saw and heard about these horrific photos.

But then he does go on to say in the interview, he make a point to say that General Kimmitt had an investigation taking place in early January, that was something the government was involved in, and that they were trying essentially trying to get information for who was responsible.

He said there are two tracks here. One of course is who is responsible for this abuse. The other he talks about here is to determine just how widespread this abuse is occurring. He goes on to say that he does not believe that it's widespread. But he does say that he had a conversation with Secretary Rumsfeld earlier today, that he told him to find the truth and then tell the Iraqi people and the world the truth.

The president was then asked, again, whether or not he had confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld. Does he was asked, does he expect anyone to step down. The president responded. This is his quote. He says, "Of course," when asked if he has confidence in the secretary of defense. "I've got some confidence in the secretary of defense and I've got confidence in the commanders on the ground in Iraq because they and our troops are doing great work on behalf of the Iraqi people."

Earlier, in the interview as well, he goes on to say, we have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency because we're a free society. So the president, again, defending his Secretary of Defense. But also making the point here that he was not aware of these photos -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right, Suzanne, we'll let you go and do some more reporting and we'll see more of what the president had to say to Al- Hurra. That and much more is ahead also other news right now a break. CNN is back after this.

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