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CNN Live Today
The Next Chapter: Saddam in Court
Aired July 01, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're waiting to establish -- there we go.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We have just come back a few hours ago from the court appearance of Saddam Hussein. I was one of the only two independent reporters who were able to be in there. And basically we saw Saddam Hussein led in, surrounded, flanked by two big Iraqi guards. He was brought in, not in handcuffs into the actual courtroom, and he was sat down.
He looked at the beginning a little lost, a little defeated. He was much thinner. He had a beard and mustache. His eyes were fairly bright, but he had rather heavy bags under his eyes.
He sat down and he started to have a back-and-forth that went on for about 15 or 20 minutes with the investigative judge. He kept asking him what was going on. The judge kept asking him for -- whether he understood what was going on. He informed him what was going on. He said that, "I am not judging you here. I'm just in the investigative process." He said, "What is your name?" And Saddam Hussein twice said, "I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq."
He was read a series of about seven charges involving killing political and religious leaders, involving the Halabja event in Kurdistan when gas was used against the Kurds. He was accused of brutally suppressing the Kurd and Shiite uprisings after the first Gulf War. That was in March of 1991.
And he was also accused of invading and occupying Kuwait. He got particularly animated over the Kuwait issue and he was very upset about being accused of that, saying "How could you accuse me of this under our law, under the constitution?"
He brought out all sorts of reasons why invading Kuwait was really just defending the Iraqi people. He talked about how Kuwait was trying to bring the price of oil down.
And at one point he appeared to be insulting the Kuwaitis, and the Iraqi judge said to him, "Don't use such words in a court. Let me remind you that you're in a court of law and such language is not permitted."
At the end, when he was asked about whether he understood and he would sign the piece of paper saying that he had been read his rights, read the fact that he had the right to a lawyer, he said he wouldn't sign it without lawyers being present. The judge said, "OK. Well, then I will record this for you." And he said to the court -- that the court recognized that Saddam Hussein has been read his rights. At that point Saddam asked, "Is this finished?" The judge said, "Yes." Saddam Hussein said, "OK, it's finished," he said that in Arabic.
And then he got up and he was escorted out of this courtroom, back to a bus, back to a helicopter, and on to the detention center where he is under American guard.
At one point he turned around and he sort of looked at the bench where we were sitting, and one of my Iraqi colleagues pointed out that often when he would give speeches, he would sort of look to the right, look to the left, look at the people for their approval, their applause, which obviously was always forthcoming.
In this case, every time he looked at us, we were just looking at him back to wait to see what he was going to say. He turned to the court and he said -- he turned to the bench and he said, "I don't want to embarrass anybody, but everybody knows this is a big theater. This is a big theater by Bush, the criminal," he said, "who's just doing it for his elections, trying to tell people that this is what the Iraqis want, a free Iraq."
So he was a little combative in some instances. But for the most part, it seemed to be a rather long back-and-forth between him and the judge.
He kept saying that he had the right to a lawyer. The judge said, "Yes. If you'd just give me 10 minutes, I will inform you of your rights. If you cannot afford a lawyer, we can provide one for you."
And again, he looked at the bench and he said, "But everybody's saying that I have millions stashed away in Geneva. Why should I not be able to provide myself with a lawyer?"
And as I say, he did not sign the final paper formally, recognizing that he had been read his rights and he had gone through this process today. That was entered on his behalf.
Back to you.
LIN: Christiane, stay right there. I want to get your read on something that Saddam Hussein said in the courtroom. We have a portion of that now on tape with a translation.
Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): This is the crux of the matter. You levy charges for action carried under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then answer formally and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then, please, allow me not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I talk for myself, I speak for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Christiane, this was the moment that you were describing where he was refusing to sign the court papers. We're looking at a very combative Saddam Hussein defying court rules.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
I mean, you know, when you say combative, he wasn't sort of jumping around and being very, very angry; he just simply said, "I'm not going to sign this until I have my lawyers with me."
He was insistent and kept repeating that, "I am elected by the people of Iraq. I am the president of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right from me."
And he basically said, according to Geneva Conventions -- the judge said, "According to Geneva Conventions, you're stripped of this right to be president."
But he was -- a theme of his back-and-forth with the judge was the jurisdiction, how did the judge have the right to judge him as president of Iraq. So he kept talking in terms of still being president and questioning the jurisdiction of the court and the legitimacy of this process.
LIN: It's interesting that he does refer to him as president in this public forum. Is he -- what sort of point is he trying to make? Or is he trying to appeal to whatever supporters may still be out there in Iraq?
AMANPOUR: Well, I think he still thinks that he is president of Iraq. You know, when he was brought out of the hole in the ground in December, according to the military who was there and who found him, his first words in English were, "I am Saddam Hussein. I'm the president of Iraq."
So he probably still thinks that and this is what he's communicating.
LIN: Christiane, he was referring to his attorneys, some of whom are in Amman, Jordan. They have not arrived in Baghdad.
What is going to happen next in these proceedings?
AMANPOUR: You know, this is a very confusing aspect of this. His family, his wife, perhaps even his daughters, have hired a whole bevy of lawyers, some of them are Arab, some of them are European.
We're told that Saddam Hussein has not himself appointed any lawyers, partly because he's gone from being a POW, where he didn't have the right to get a lawyer, and now he's only just been transferred into the Iraqi legal system.
And it was only today and yesterday during the legal transfer that he had the right today to ask the judge for a lawyer and that, we're told, is part of this process. And the lawyer -- we're told the lead lawyer has to be Iraqi.
We're going to wait to see how this actually progresses, because as he's made very clear, he's not going to be putting his signature to anything without lawyers.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour covering this very important story live for us out of Baghdad.
As we've been talking all morning, in case you are just joining us, Saddam Hussein, the former president of Iraq, arraigned on seven preliminary charges on war crimes.
He spoke out loud in the court and this is some of what he had to say, with an English translation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I am -- I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of the legal session will not be accepted then -- please allow me.
The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq, as the commander of chief of the army. The army went to Kuwait, OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who's carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
These are rights guaranteed by constitution. This is the crux of the matter.
You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially just go ahead and answer. Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then please allow me, allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): But these minutes have to be signed. I speak for myself, the guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, this is not part of the process. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act hastily and then make a mistake, then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, there is no hasty decision making here. You have the right to sign. You do have to sign. These are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A defiant Saddam Hussein. We want to get a sense of what the reaction is in the Arab world. Obviously this proceeding being broadcast live around the world. Our editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr is here to talk a lot about that.
You've been monitoring reactions, watching a very lucid, defiant Saddam Hussein. What have you seen in terms of what people are saying about his appearance?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN EDITOR OF ARAB AFFAIRS: This is exactly how they're describing him. I mean, he's coming across as lucid, because he knows his rights, he is refusing to sign. He's saying, I'm not going to sign without my lawyers being with me. He's requesting presidential immunity. He's saying, if you're going to charge me with things under my rule as president of Iraq, therefore you have to protect me, the Constitution has to protect me. So Arab media are carrying this live. I mean, not live, but they're carrying it as they received it. They carried it right away. It's in Arabic, obviously, so it's going to affect the Arab street right away, differently than the way we're covering the story, because he's speaking directly to them.
A lot of experts are saying he is speaking to the Arabs in general, and Iraqis in particular. The language, the rhetoric he's using, his demeanor, everything is carrying messages.
LIN: What is he hoping for? Are there still supporters of Saddam Hussein, he is hoping that he will draw into this process?
NASR: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, if we can take a moment to listen to some street reaction, we have some pro-Saddam Hussein and anti-Saddam Hussein. We'll start with the pro-Saddam Hussein. This one coming to us from Al-Jazeera earlier today.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think this is a fair trial. This is not legitimate; this is not legal. This is not legitimate. America brought that, their own puppets for America. There is no judge. This is to serve the interest of America. They are destroying this country. They talk about democracy. Is this democracy (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Ask Iraqis. Ask people in Basra, Kirkuk, Mosul, is what they're seeing is democracy. This is dictatorship and oppression. We tell America, we say to America the message, if that is the democracy that you bring about, if this is a trial that you think is going to be fair, then America, you will get what you deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: A very important to point out that this was shot in Haja (ph), the birthplace of Saddam Hussein. So there a lot of support for him, at the end of this episode. All of them were chanting, "With our blood and our soul, we'll save you, oh, Saddam." So yes, he's trying to appeal to that group. Obviously he does know that there is someone out there who is going to be supporting him. And perhaps some experts are saying he's appealing to Arab leaders to tell them, I'm not done, it's not over yet, if you want to step forward and support me and call this tribunal illegal, go for it. Now...
LIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Is that fair to say?
NASR: Well, very unlikely if you listen to Arab experts. Even if the -- even if there are those who support him and want to defend him. Arab experts tell us that this is very unlikely to happen. No one is going to come forward and upset the coalition, and especially the U.S.
Now, let's take a moment and listen to some anti-Saddam reactions. In one country, you have those supporting him with their blood and souls, and others that don't support him at all.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Actually, the trial of Saddam Hussein is very, very necessary, because of the crimes he committed during 35 years. Those crimes included wars, destruction of Iraq's economy and standing in the way of our people's progress. Iraq is to have a strong economy, considered to be to the best in the region. Because of him, we have no economy, no progress and no prosperity. He caused the destruction of this once-great Arab country. He waged unnecessary wars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: So the big story is seeing Saddam Hussein, and hearing him. They saw him, heard him. Now the big question is, what kind of a trial this is going to be, when is it going to happen, how long it's going to take. Is he going to have representation? What kind of representation? There are commentators saying, is he going to be treated like Milosevic, being tried in an international tribunal. It's not fair to have him tried inside Iraq by Iraqis themselves, who might have animosity against him.
LIN: Even though it's an Iraqi face on the legal process, that is not considered a legitimate trial in terms of his supporters?
NASR: It is -- you know, it is seen as unfair. You know, a lot of commentators, especially those who are calling for a fair trial, they're saying a fair trial cannot take place in Iraq. And it cannot take place the way the proceedings today took place, because obviously, they're telling us, obviously, this was run by the U.S., censored by the U.S., will there be microphones, no microphones, even to the smallest detail. So they're saying, how can the trial be fair if these are the people trying him? You know, why don't you send him to the Hague, for example, and then the tribunal might be fair. So you have, you know, different voices. The Arab street is almost split right now. I think the shock of seeing him and hearing him has to be over, it has to wear out before we start getting more reaction.
LIN: Right, and a very different Saddam Hussein that we're seeing today in court than when he was captured back in December. We have got more reaction from the ground right now.
I'm going to go live to CNN's Brent Sadler, who is in Baghdad.
Brent, you've been talking to some people about today's appearance by Saddam Hussein. What are you hearing?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, first of all, I spent a couple of hours in a Shia district of Baghdad, a place where they've suffered a lot of repression over the years. And with one family that lost several members of their group to various tortures and policies aimed against this district. They were really telling me that they were looking forward to seeing Saddam Hussein facing up to justice in court. But what they saw really was quite shocking. They did not see, they said, Saddam Hussein, the prisoner, they saw Saddam Hussein looking more presidential than prisoner. He was defiant, powerless, but provocative.
And this really sparked off a debate within the family. Some members of the family said he should have been standing in court. He should not have been given the leeway to challenge the judge in the way that they did, to refuse to sign the minutes of the 30-minute court hearing.
Other members were saying, well, look, this is Iraqi judicial law under the new Iraq, not the way it was under Saddam Hussein. This is the right thing. But generally speaking, the people of that district felt that this was not what they wanted to see. They wanted to see a defeated, a broken Saddam Hussein, much the way they saw him last December when he was captured, and that they were concerned, many of them, that visions of Saddam today in court being provocative and defiant, mike embolden ex-Baathists, ex-Saddam Hussein loyalist out there who are still waging the insurgency -- Carol.
LIN: Brent, are you hearing then the same questions about how legitimate this court hearing, this trial is going to be in terms of how the Arab world, much less Saddam Hussein's supporters and enemies, are going to see it?
SADLER: I think, generally, you have to look at it at the Iraqi perspective. This is, you know, a quantum leap in terms of what they've been used to for the past 30 decades. They are seeing Saddam Hussein, the despot, facing up to his day in court, the beginning of a long process of this judicial tribunal here.
And in terms of fairness, if this means that he has to be seen like this, and being provocative, challenging the law challenging the process, then albeit, all well and good, say some people. But the majority of Iraqis on the ground here having gone through what they've seen will almost certainly tell you that this is too good for Saddam Hussein, too good for the man who ruled this country 30 years almost of merciless rule, too good for him. But at the same time, this is the new Iraq. Iraqi officials trying to tell people, that's not the way they should think. They should think about the new Iraq and the way it will conduct itself in the future. So really, a lot of differing opinions emerging on this -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Brent Sadler, reporting live in Baghdad.
We've been talking about Saddam Hussein's appearance in court today. We want to share another chunk of what he had to say to the judge in that court session. This is with an English translation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): Those animals don't attack. This is a legal session. I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the laws of a legal session will not listen to them. Please allow me.
The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq as the commander of chief of the army. The army went to Kuwait, OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who's carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
These are rights guaranteed by constitution. This is the crux of the matter.
You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially just go ahead and answer. Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me, allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But these minutes have to be signed. I speak for myself, the guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act hastily and then make a mistake, then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, there is no hasty decision making here. You have the right to sign. You do have to sign. These are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you can leave. Dismissed.
Finished?
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A defiant and stubborn Saddam Hussein, insisting that he is still president of Iraq, and that he wants his attorneys before he's to sign any legal documents.
In facts, on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," one of his attorneys who is still in Amman, Jordan, Tim Hughes, had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM HUGHES, SADDAM DEFENSE TEAM: We've been based in Amman all day today with the other international lawyers who have been approached to provide a team of defenders for Saddam Hussein. We've been restricted to watching television pictures as they've come through of the hearing today. Scandalously, he's not been represented day, and has not had any prior legal advice before his court appearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: All right, the Bush administration was obviously monitoring Saddam Hussein's court appearance today.
CNN's Elaine Quijano is standing by at the White House.
Good morning, Elaine. What was the reaction there? ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Carol.
We just got out of an off-camera briefing by Scott McClellan. And as of about 20 minutes, or perhaps 30 minutes or so ago, he said that the president had not actually seen the news coverage of Saddam Hussein in court, saying that the president at the time that the news broke, was in his briefings, his usual briefings, and had not had an opportunity yet to view the tapes.
Now that being said, Scott McClellan went on to say that the administration is certainly pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime are going to be brought to justice by the Iraqi people for the atrocities committed, brought to justice by Iraqi people in an Iraqi court. And that really was the theme of his remarks when asked to respond to some of the developments going on. Scott McClellan saying very clearly, this is an opportunity for the Iraqi people now to show that there is in fact a process of justice that is taking place.
When asked specifically about some of the statements that Saddam Hussein made during the court appearance, Scott McClellan would say only that -- quote -- I'm sure Saddam Hussein will continue to say all sorts of things. What's important is Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders, again, are going to face justice by Iraqi people in an Iraqi court.
So the line out of the White House at this moment, again, the president, as of about 20 or 30 minutes or so ago, had not actually looked at the news coverage, or had a chance to sit down and view the news coverage as it was unfolding. But certainly replays of that Scott McClellan saying today the president will be taking a very close look at.
Also, one thing Scott said that what these proceedings seemed to indicate, that there is justice, and a rule of law that is part of the new Iraq.
So being very careful, turning the attention to the process that is unfolding, staying away, though, from addressing any specific statements that Saddam Hussein made during the actual proceeding itself.
Again, saying only that Saddam Hussein -- quote -- "I'm sure he's going to say all sorts of things. So that is the reaction coming out of the White House at this hour -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thanks very much, Elaine Quijano, reporting live at the White House on this historic day, as Saddam Hussein stands before a court of justice outside of Baghdad, facing seven preliminary counts on war crimes. You can check out our Web site also for profiles of Saddam Hussein and other regime members who were in court today. All you have to do is go to CNN.com.
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired July 1, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're waiting to establish -- there we go.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We have just come back a few hours ago from the court appearance of Saddam Hussein. I was one of the only two independent reporters who were able to be in there. And basically we saw Saddam Hussein led in, surrounded, flanked by two big Iraqi guards. He was brought in, not in handcuffs into the actual courtroom, and he was sat down.
He looked at the beginning a little lost, a little defeated. He was much thinner. He had a beard and mustache. His eyes were fairly bright, but he had rather heavy bags under his eyes.
He sat down and he started to have a back-and-forth that went on for about 15 or 20 minutes with the investigative judge. He kept asking him what was going on. The judge kept asking him for -- whether he understood what was going on. He informed him what was going on. He said that, "I am not judging you here. I'm just in the investigative process." He said, "What is your name?" And Saddam Hussein twice said, "I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq."
He was read a series of about seven charges involving killing political and religious leaders, involving the Halabja event in Kurdistan when gas was used against the Kurds. He was accused of brutally suppressing the Kurd and Shiite uprisings after the first Gulf War. That was in March of 1991.
And he was also accused of invading and occupying Kuwait. He got particularly animated over the Kuwait issue and he was very upset about being accused of that, saying "How could you accuse me of this under our law, under the constitution?"
He brought out all sorts of reasons why invading Kuwait was really just defending the Iraqi people. He talked about how Kuwait was trying to bring the price of oil down.
And at one point he appeared to be insulting the Kuwaitis, and the Iraqi judge said to him, "Don't use such words in a court. Let me remind you that you're in a court of law and such language is not permitted."
At the end, when he was asked about whether he understood and he would sign the piece of paper saying that he had been read his rights, read the fact that he had the right to a lawyer, he said he wouldn't sign it without lawyers being present. The judge said, "OK. Well, then I will record this for you." And he said to the court -- that the court recognized that Saddam Hussein has been read his rights. At that point Saddam asked, "Is this finished?" The judge said, "Yes." Saddam Hussein said, "OK, it's finished," he said that in Arabic.
And then he got up and he was escorted out of this courtroom, back to a bus, back to a helicopter, and on to the detention center where he is under American guard.
At one point he turned around and he sort of looked at the bench where we were sitting, and one of my Iraqi colleagues pointed out that often when he would give speeches, he would sort of look to the right, look to the left, look at the people for their approval, their applause, which obviously was always forthcoming.
In this case, every time he looked at us, we were just looking at him back to wait to see what he was going to say. He turned to the court and he said -- he turned to the bench and he said, "I don't want to embarrass anybody, but everybody knows this is a big theater. This is a big theater by Bush, the criminal," he said, "who's just doing it for his elections, trying to tell people that this is what the Iraqis want, a free Iraq."
So he was a little combative in some instances. But for the most part, it seemed to be a rather long back-and-forth between him and the judge.
He kept saying that he had the right to a lawyer. The judge said, "Yes. If you'd just give me 10 minutes, I will inform you of your rights. If you cannot afford a lawyer, we can provide one for you."
And again, he looked at the bench and he said, "But everybody's saying that I have millions stashed away in Geneva. Why should I not be able to provide myself with a lawyer?"
And as I say, he did not sign the final paper formally, recognizing that he had been read his rights and he had gone through this process today. That was entered on his behalf.
Back to you.
LIN: Christiane, stay right there. I want to get your read on something that Saddam Hussein said in the courtroom. We have a portion of that now on tape with a translation.
Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): This is the crux of the matter. You levy charges for action carried under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then answer formally and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then, please, allow me not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I talk for myself, I speak for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Christiane, this was the moment that you were describing where he was refusing to sign the court papers. We're looking at a very combative Saddam Hussein defying court rules.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
I mean, you know, when you say combative, he wasn't sort of jumping around and being very, very angry; he just simply said, "I'm not going to sign this until I have my lawyers with me."
He was insistent and kept repeating that, "I am elected by the people of Iraq. I am the president of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right from me."
And he basically said, according to Geneva Conventions -- the judge said, "According to Geneva Conventions, you're stripped of this right to be president."
But he was -- a theme of his back-and-forth with the judge was the jurisdiction, how did the judge have the right to judge him as president of Iraq. So he kept talking in terms of still being president and questioning the jurisdiction of the court and the legitimacy of this process.
LIN: It's interesting that he does refer to him as president in this public forum. Is he -- what sort of point is he trying to make? Or is he trying to appeal to whatever supporters may still be out there in Iraq?
AMANPOUR: Well, I think he still thinks that he is president of Iraq. You know, when he was brought out of the hole in the ground in December, according to the military who was there and who found him, his first words in English were, "I am Saddam Hussein. I'm the president of Iraq."
So he probably still thinks that and this is what he's communicating.
LIN: Christiane, he was referring to his attorneys, some of whom are in Amman, Jordan. They have not arrived in Baghdad.
What is going to happen next in these proceedings?
AMANPOUR: You know, this is a very confusing aspect of this. His family, his wife, perhaps even his daughters, have hired a whole bevy of lawyers, some of them are Arab, some of them are European.
We're told that Saddam Hussein has not himself appointed any lawyers, partly because he's gone from being a POW, where he didn't have the right to get a lawyer, and now he's only just been transferred into the Iraqi legal system.
And it was only today and yesterday during the legal transfer that he had the right today to ask the judge for a lawyer and that, we're told, is part of this process. And the lawyer -- we're told the lead lawyer has to be Iraqi.
We're going to wait to see how this actually progresses, because as he's made very clear, he's not going to be putting his signature to anything without lawyers.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour covering this very important story live for us out of Baghdad.
As we've been talking all morning, in case you are just joining us, Saddam Hussein, the former president of Iraq, arraigned on seven preliminary charges on war crimes.
He spoke out loud in the court and this is some of what he had to say, with an English translation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I am -- I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of the legal session will not be accepted then -- please allow me.
The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq, as the commander of chief of the army. The army went to Kuwait, OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who's carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
These are rights guaranteed by constitution. This is the crux of the matter.
You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially just go ahead and answer. Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Then please allow me, allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): But these minutes have to be signed. I speak for myself, the guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, this is not part of the process. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act hastily and then make a mistake, then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, there is no hasty decision making here. You have the right to sign. You do have to sign. These are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A defiant Saddam Hussein. We want to get a sense of what the reaction is in the Arab world. Obviously this proceeding being broadcast live around the world. Our editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr is here to talk a lot about that.
You've been monitoring reactions, watching a very lucid, defiant Saddam Hussein. What have you seen in terms of what people are saying about his appearance?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN EDITOR OF ARAB AFFAIRS: This is exactly how they're describing him. I mean, he's coming across as lucid, because he knows his rights, he is refusing to sign. He's saying, I'm not going to sign without my lawyers being with me. He's requesting presidential immunity. He's saying, if you're going to charge me with things under my rule as president of Iraq, therefore you have to protect me, the Constitution has to protect me. So Arab media are carrying this live. I mean, not live, but they're carrying it as they received it. They carried it right away. It's in Arabic, obviously, so it's going to affect the Arab street right away, differently than the way we're covering the story, because he's speaking directly to them.
A lot of experts are saying he is speaking to the Arabs in general, and Iraqis in particular. The language, the rhetoric he's using, his demeanor, everything is carrying messages.
LIN: What is he hoping for? Are there still supporters of Saddam Hussein, he is hoping that he will draw into this process?
NASR: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, if we can take a moment to listen to some street reaction, we have some pro-Saddam Hussein and anti-Saddam Hussein. We'll start with the pro-Saddam Hussein. This one coming to us from Al-Jazeera earlier today.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think this is a fair trial. This is not legitimate; this is not legal. This is not legitimate. America brought that, their own puppets for America. There is no judge. This is to serve the interest of America. They are destroying this country. They talk about democracy. Is this democracy (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Ask Iraqis. Ask people in Basra, Kirkuk, Mosul, is what they're seeing is democracy. This is dictatorship and oppression. We tell America, we say to America the message, if that is the democracy that you bring about, if this is a trial that you think is going to be fair, then America, you will get what you deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: A very important to point out that this was shot in Haja (ph), the birthplace of Saddam Hussein. So there a lot of support for him, at the end of this episode. All of them were chanting, "With our blood and our soul, we'll save you, oh, Saddam." So yes, he's trying to appeal to that group. Obviously he does know that there is someone out there who is going to be supporting him. And perhaps some experts are saying he's appealing to Arab leaders to tell them, I'm not done, it's not over yet, if you want to step forward and support me and call this tribunal illegal, go for it. Now...
LIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Is that fair to say?
NASR: Well, very unlikely if you listen to Arab experts. Even if the -- even if there are those who support him and want to defend him. Arab experts tell us that this is very unlikely to happen. No one is going to come forward and upset the coalition, and especially the U.S.
Now, let's take a moment and listen to some anti-Saddam reactions. In one country, you have those supporting him with their blood and souls, and others that don't support him at all.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Actually, the trial of Saddam Hussein is very, very necessary, because of the crimes he committed during 35 years. Those crimes included wars, destruction of Iraq's economy and standing in the way of our people's progress. Iraq is to have a strong economy, considered to be to the best in the region. Because of him, we have no economy, no progress and no prosperity. He caused the destruction of this once-great Arab country. He waged unnecessary wars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NASR: So the big story is seeing Saddam Hussein, and hearing him. They saw him, heard him. Now the big question is, what kind of a trial this is going to be, when is it going to happen, how long it's going to take. Is he going to have representation? What kind of representation? There are commentators saying, is he going to be treated like Milosevic, being tried in an international tribunal. It's not fair to have him tried inside Iraq by Iraqis themselves, who might have animosity against him.
LIN: Even though it's an Iraqi face on the legal process, that is not considered a legitimate trial in terms of his supporters?
NASR: It is -- you know, it is seen as unfair. You know, a lot of commentators, especially those who are calling for a fair trial, they're saying a fair trial cannot take place in Iraq. And it cannot take place the way the proceedings today took place, because obviously, they're telling us, obviously, this was run by the U.S., censored by the U.S., will there be microphones, no microphones, even to the smallest detail. So they're saying, how can the trial be fair if these are the people trying him? You know, why don't you send him to the Hague, for example, and then the tribunal might be fair. So you have, you know, different voices. The Arab street is almost split right now. I think the shock of seeing him and hearing him has to be over, it has to wear out before we start getting more reaction.
LIN: Right, and a very different Saddam Hussein that we're seeing today in court than when he was captured back in December. We have got more reaction from the ground right now.
I'm going to go live to CNN's Brent Sadler, who is in Baghdad.
Brent, you've been talking to some people about today's appearance by Saddam Hussein. What are you hearing?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, first of all, I spent a couple of hours in a Shia district of Baghdad, a place where they've suffered a lot of repression over the years. And with one family that lost several members of their group to various tortures and policies aimed against this district. They were really telling me that they were looking forward to seeing Saddam Hussein facing up to justice in court. But what they saw really was quite shocking. They did not see, they said, Saddam Hussein, the prisoner, they saw Saddam Hussein looking more presidential than prisoner. He was defiant, powerless, but provocative.
And this really sparked off a debate within the family. Some members of the family said he should have been standing in court. He should not have been given the leeway to challenge the judge in the way that they did, to refuse to sign the minutes of the 30-minute court hearing.
Other members were saying, well, look, this is Iraqi judicial law under the new Iraq, not the way it was under Saddam Hussein. This is the right thing. But generally speaking, the people of that district felt that this was not what they wanted to see. They wanted to see a defeated, a broken Saddam Hussein, much the way they saw him last December when he was captured, and that they were concerned, many of them, that visions of Saddam today in court being provocative and defiant, mike embolden ex-Baathists, ex-Saddam Hussein loyalist out there who are still waging the insurgency -- Carol.
LIN: Brent, are you hearing then the same questions about how legitimate this court hearing, this trial is going to be in terms of how the Arab world, much less Saddam Hussein's supporters and enemies, are going to see it?
SADLER: I think, generally, you have to look at it at the Iraqi perspective. This is, you know, a quantum leap in terms of what they've been used to for the past 30 decades. They are seeing Saddam Hussein, the despot, facing up to his day in court, the beginning of a long process of this judicial tribunal here.
And in terms of fairness, if this means that he has to be seen like this, and being provocative, challenging the law challenging the process, then albeit, all well and good, say some people. But the majority of Iraqis on the ground here having gone through what they've seen will almost certainly tell you that this is too good for Saddam Hussein, too good for the man who ruled this country 30 years almost of merciless rule, too good for him. But at the same time, this is the new Iraq. Iraqi officials trying to tell people, that's not the way they should think. They should think about the new Iraq and the way it will conduct itself in the future. So really, a lot of differing opinions emerging on this -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Brent Sadler, reporting live in Baghdad.
We've been talking about Saddam Hussein's appearance in court today. We want to share another chunk of what he had to say to the judge in that court session. This is with an English translation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): Those animals don't attack. This is a legal session. I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the laws of a legal session will not listen to them. Please allow me.
The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq as the commander of chief of the army. The army went to Kuwait, OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who's carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
These are rights guaranteed by constitution. This is the crux of the matter.
You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially just go ahead and answer. Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me, allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But these minutes have to be signed. I speak for myself, the guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act hastily and then make a mistake, then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, there is no hasty decision making here. You have the right to sign. You do have to sign. These are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you can leave. Dismissed.
Finished?
HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A defiant and stubborn Saddam Hussein, insisting that he is still president of Iraq, and that he wants his attorneys before he's to sign any legal documents.
In facts, on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," one of his attorneys who is still in Amman, Jordan, Tim Hughes, had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM HUGHES, SADDAM DEFENSE TEAM: We've been based in Amman all day today with the other international lawyers who have been approached to provide a team of defenders for Saddam Hussein. We've been restricted to watching television pictures as they've come through of the hearing today. Scandalously, he's not been represented day, and has not had any prior legal advice before his court appearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: All right, the Bush administration was obviously monitoring Saddam Hussein's court appearance today.
CNN's Elaine Quijano is standing by at the White House.
Good morning, Elaine. What was the reaction there? ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Carol.
We just got out of an off-camera briefing by Scott McClellan. And as of about 20 minutes, or perhaps 30 minutes or so ago, he said that the president had not actually seen the news coverage of Saddam Hussein in court, saying that the president at the time that the news broke, was in his briefings, his usual briefings, and had not had an opportunity yet to view the tapes.
Now that being said, Scott McClellan went on to say that the administration is certainly pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime are going to be brought to justice by the Iraqi people for the atrocities committed, brought to justice by Iraqi people in an Iraqi court. And that really was the theme of his remarks when asked to respond to some of the developments going on. Scott McClellan saying very clearly, this is an opportunity for the Iraqi people now to show that there is in fact a process of justice that is taking place.
When asked specifically about some of the statements that Saddam Hussein made during the court appearance, Scott McClellan would say only that -- quote -- I'm sure Saddam Hussein will continue to say all sorts of things. What's important is Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders, again, are going to face justice by Iraqi people in an Iraqi court.
So the line out of the White House at this moment, again, the president, as of about 20 or 30 minutes or so ago, had not actually looked at the news coverage, or had a chance to sit down and view the news coverage as it was unfolding. But certainly replays of that Scott McClellan saying today the president will be taking a very close look at.
Also, one thing Scott said that what these proceedings seemed to indicate, that there is justice, and a rule of law that is part of the new Iraq.
So being very careful, turning the attention to the process that is unfolding, staying away, though, from addressing any specific statements that Saddam Hussein made during the actual proceeding itself.
Again, saying only that Saddam Hussein -- quote -- "I'm sure he's going to say all sorts of things. So that is the reaction coming out of the White House at this hour -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thanks very much, Elaine Quijano, reporting live at the White House on this historic day, as Saddam Hussein stands before a court of justice outside of Baghdad, facing seven preliminary counts on war crimes. You can check out our Web site also for profiles of Saddam Hussein and other regime members who were in court today. All you have to do is go to CNN.com.
We're back in a moment.
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