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CNN Live Today

Prisoner Abuse Scandal; Guantanamo Hearings; Fighting in Najaf

Aired August 24, 2004 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: It is 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast, 8:00 in the West. From the CNN Center right here in Atlanta, I'm Betty Nguyen, in for Daryn Kagan today.
Up first on CNN, finding fault and assigning blame in the Iraqi abuse prisoner scandal. The first of two reports on the scandal at Abu Ghraib prison will be released today and is expected to be critical of top defense officials. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, joins us now with all the details.

Good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Betty.

Well, two reports in the next two days on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. First up today, the so-called Schlesinger report. This is an advisory panel for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld run by former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger. He will report this afternoon his findings on his review of how the investigation into Abu Ghraib was conducted, what happened, what went wrong.

By all accounts, his report will be critical of the so-called command climate in Iraq. He will say that top commanders in the field, as well as Pentagon officials, simply did not pay enough attention to what was going on in Iraq when the U.S. military was running this massive prison system, holding thousands of Iraqis in detention. But that's just the first report.

Tomorrow, the so-called Fay report. That report will have more legal teeth. Of course, that is the Army report into questionable intelligence practices and interrogation practices at Abu Ghraib. That report, tomorrow, expected to name some two dozen personnel, soldiers and contractors, for possible further legal action.

The bottom line here, Betty, is that it's all appearing to shape up that there will be criticism of top senior officials for not exerting the correct leadership, command, devoting enough resources and attention to the situation in the prison system in Iraq, but no legal culpability. That appears at the moment to be stopping with the soldiers and the personnel who worked directly in the prison -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Barbara, we are also hearing there's news coming out of Germany on those hearings there concerning Abu Ghraib. What do you know about that?

STARR: Well, those soldiers, seven of those soldiers, part of -- some of them undergoing continuing hearings in Germany. And late yesterday, there was a statement from an attorney for one of them, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick. He is now apparently agreeing to plead guilty to some of the charges of abuse that he is facing. As part of his plea bargain, once all of that is finalized, it is certainly expected his information will then be used in other prosecutions -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you.

This programming note now. The former commander of military police at Abu Ghraib prison will be a guest on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING." That is tomorrow. You can see the interview with Brigadier General Janis Karpinski at 7:00 a.m. Eastern.

Military proceedings for prisoners labeled enemy combatants formally opened today in Cuba. National correspondent Susan Candiotti is at Guantanamo Bay naval base with the latest on this.

Hi there, Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Betty. Security extremely tight this day. All the action, as it were, is taking place in the building that you can see way off in the distance over my shoulder.

After an unexplained delay, the proceedings finally got under way a little over an hour ago with the words "The military commission is called to order." These are basically pretrial hearings, but just prior to those initial words, the room full of spectators fell silent as the accused, Salim Ahmed Hamdan, of Yemen, entered the room.

He was smiling and shook hands with his military lawyer. He is listening to an interpretation of what is going on over headphones. Everyone is speaking very slowly, and the charges were read.

He is alleged to have conspired to attack civilians, property, and murder, all acts of terrorism. Now, this proceeding is taking place for the first time in 60 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): From this wooden building, and its six by eight-foot holding cells, equipped with a cot, toilet and a copy of the Koran, the first of four defendants accused of war crimes will be taken to court. Uncertainty over exactly how the commission will work continues to dog defense attorneys.

LT. CMDR. PHILIP SUNDELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The fact that the process has been started and they're still defining the rules as we go along, is a fundamental flaw that prevents there from being any possibility of a fair trial.

CANDIOTTI: An especially harsh criticism considering the source, one of the Pentagon's own attorneys appointed to defend the accused. The decision to try U.S. detainees by military commission on foreign soil has raised eyebrows worldwide. MAJ. MICHAEL MORI, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It's a resurrected outdated system that doesn't provide the fundamental protections of procedure or independence of a judge or appeal.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Technically, there is no judge, no independent finder of fact. Here, a presiding officer, for example, also votes on the verdict.

(voice-over): Critics suggest the suspected al Qaeda terrorist could just as easily be tried by court-martial with well-tested rules and procedures. But the Pentagon says they don't qualify for a court- martial because they're technically not prisoners of war fighting for a nation's army. Human rights organizations are among those protesting.

SAMAN ZIA-ZARIFI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: The United States would not be happy if American personnel, if Special Forces, for instance, were arrested in Iran or Syria and subjected to this kind of military commission.

CANDIOTTI: Don't prejudge, says the Pentagon.

LT. SUSAN MCGARVEY, MILITARY COMMISSION SPOKESWOMAN: I think over the course of time people will see that this is the proper venue for trying war crimes during an ongoing armed conflict.

CANDIOTTI: A conflict called the war on terror with no end in sight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: So far, Hamdan has only addressed the court a few times, answering some basic housekeeping questions. And during the course of this pretrial hearing, the defense has the right to question members of the military commission.

Right now, the attorney representing Hamdan is asking questions of the presiding officer. Technically, there is no judge on this panel. This man is a retired military judge who was brought back into active service. He said he volunteered for this job because he said of the constraints on the Army these days.

And then he added this, "I thought I was good at it being a judge. I know I was good at it."

Four defendants are scheduled to appear during the rest of the week. It should wrap up on Friday, although there's no guarantee of that -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Rarely is there a guarantee. All right. Susan Candiotti in Guantanamo Bay. Thank you.

Now to Iraq and a standoff in Najaf. Want to give you a live look right now. The aide says radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is ready to negotiate again. This follows the latest ultimatum for his followers to leave the holy Imam Ali Shrine or face a raid by Iraqi forces.

CNN's Matthew Chance joins us by phone from Najaf with the latest on this deal, perhaps, that could be in the works -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it may be too early at this stage, Betty, to call it a deal simply because over the course of the past two weeks we've been seeing a lot of the political to'ing and fro'ing between the parties involved here. The supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr saying they're ready to negotiate, but not really in the end being prepared to do that.

Also, words from the Iraqi interim government, saying that they're prepared to go into the mosque. But on a number of occasions, not being prepared to do that either.

We're seeing that again right now with words from the Iraqi interim defense minister, saying that this is an ultimatum, that he's -- within the next few hours he's ordering Iraqi security forces to surround the entrances of the Imam Ali mosque, one of the holiest shrines in Shia Islam, to seal off those entrances to prevent people from going in. He's then going to use loud speakers, they say, the Iraqi security forces, to encourage and order people inside that mosque -- and there are many hundreds of people in the mosque, including women and children -- to leave it, or else face an onslaught by Iraqi security forces.

Now, again, this is something that we've heard talked about in the past by the political leadership of Iraq. We're waiting to see whether it happens this time. But if it does, it's obviously an incredibly dangerous strategy because of the sensitivity surrounding this mosque.

It is so holy to so many Shia Muslims around the world. But there are concerns that any damage that may be caused to it in the course of any kind of storming operation may be enough to provoke a ferocious backlash amongst this country's majority Shia population -- Betty.

NGUYEN: But some kind of deal or truce or something has to be made awfully quickly because there's an ultimatum on the table.

CHANCE: Yes. I mean, exactly.

The Iraqi defense minister saying that it's just a matter of hours now until some kind of order is given for the mosque to be surrounded, before the order is given for the mosque to be stormed. But again, this kind of ultimatum, exactly this kind of ultimatum, has been issued in the past by members of the interim Iraqi government.

They're playing a very dangerous game, a very delicate game trying to sort of put not just military pressure on the Mehdi Army. And we're seeing quite significant amounts of that with bombardments by U.S. tanks and warplanes in the skies over Najaf on most nights. They're also trying to play kind of mind games to try and encourage the Mehdi Army to abandon their positions in the old city. And so the hope is, perhaps, that, you know -- and I'm speculating here -- but the hope is that perhaps some kind of political resolution can be reached in this crisis.

NGUYEN: CNN's Matthew Chance following the situation in Najaf. Thank you so much for that.

As the standoff continues in Najaf, violence erupted elsewhere in Iraq today. Witnesses say U.S. warplanes and artillery struck targets in Fallujah in western Iraq. The bombardment continued for more than an hour. There is no immediate comment from the U.S. military.

In Baghdad, two Iraqi government ministers escaped injury in two separate car bombings. But police say five bodyguards were killed and four were wounded in those attacks.

An Italian journalist missing in Iraq turned up today in a video broadcast on the Arab network, Al Jazeera. Enzo Baldoni (ph) disappeared Friday while covering the situation in Najaf. He's shown on the video surrounded by militants. Now, his captors say Rome has 48 hours to pull his troops -- or its troops out of Iraq or Baldoni (ph) will be killed.

Also in Baghdad, freed American journalist Micah Garen held a news conference about two weeks ago. Garen, who was held captive in Iraq for over a week, thanked those who helped secure his release and says he's focused on reuniting with friends and family. Garen's father, who lives in Connecticut, says his son could return to the U.S. later this week. And despite being held there as a hostage for nine days, Garen says he wants to continue a documentary he was filming in Iraq.

Children taking up arms in war? It's a disturbing trend in Iraq. Find out who is punishing them -- or who is pushing them into service.

President Bush and John Kerry have both denounced them, so why don't they stop? Find out why 527 ads are more powerful than ever.

And America's health epidemic gets worse. We'll tell you about alarming new blood pressure statistics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

NGUYEN: As we told you at the top of the hour, the first of two reports on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal will be released less than three hours from now. It's expected to criticize top defense officials. And Scott Silliman is a professor of law at Duke University and a former military lawyer. He joins us in Durham, North Carolina, to give us some insight on these reports.

Good morning to you.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE LAW PROFESSOR: Good morning, Betty. It's a pleasure to be with you.

NGUYEN: Wonderful. Well, we've been talking about the Schlesinger report this morning. So I want to focus a little bit on the Fay report, which is expected to come out tomorrow.

Today, in "The Washington Post," the Fay report supposedly is going to be dealing with the use of attack dogs on Iraqi teenagers. Who do you know about that?

SILLIMAN: Well, it's something we hadn't heard about before, Betty. And obviously it just adds more fuel to the issue of exactly what atrocities were done in that cell block.

It also, we hear, will include many more that are being singled out for punitive action. But, again, it's suggesting that they're at the lower level. In this case, military intelligence groups, up through and including Colonel Pappas and Brigadier General Karpinski on the military police side of the house.

Again, the Fay report, when it comes out and is delivered to Congress, will not look any higher than General Sanchez at his command headquarters at Baghdad. That's to be complemented by this report which will be released this afternoon, the Schlesinger report, which I think is a sleeper. Most people didn't anticipate it would be so significant, and it's turning out to be.

NGUYEN: Why is it just looking at the lower levels and the ranks here on the Fay report? Why doesn't it go up any higher?

SILLIMAN: Well, one of the problems, again, Betty, is that you cannot go higher than the appointing authority allows you to go. And that capped at General Sanchez.

Of course, the Army made the smart decision to allow a four-star general to become involved so that Sanchez himself could be investigated. But the Fay inquiry cannot in any way reach the Pentagon, can't reach Dick Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So you have to look for the other report to give you the higher up, the leadership issues. And, again, that's why these two reports complement one another.

NGUYEN: Do you expect that in these reports they are going to name names and assign blame?

SILLIMAN: I think they will at the lower level, Betty. I think, particularly, as far as some of the military intelligence folks that were actually in the cell block at Abu Ghraib, I think we might find some mention of what they call OGA, other government agencies. That's a synonym for the CIA, civilian contractors.

So we're going to have a broader view of who was involved in the cell block. But everyone wants to know how high up does it go as far as who created this counterculture of avoidance of the Geneva Conventions, which is the center issue in this whole case.

NGUYEN: Do you think it's going to recommend punishment for these people named?

SILLIMAN: I think they won't recommend specific punishment. I think we're going to see a variety of recommendations, ranging all the way from administrative reprimands and sanctions, perhaps Article 15 punishment, perhaps recommendations for courts-martial action, like the military police are now facing all over the world.

NGUYEN: Is that going to hope the folks in Germany, those soldiers that are facing courts-martial?

SILLIMAN: Well, I think the defense lawyers for those folks, Betty, are going to want to capitalize on the fact that it's not just six or seven that were involved who have already been identified. They have been trying to show that they were at least influenced, if not ordered by military intelligence folks and other government agencies.

The Fay investigation will seek in some ways to help the defense in their arguments. They may not get their clients off, but they will sure mitigate punishment.

NGUYEN: All right. Professor Scott Silliman, we appreciate your time and your insight this morning.

SILLIMAN: Thanks, Betty.

NGUYEN: The battle between coalition forces and followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is claiming many casualties. Some of them not even old enough to be in their teens. Here's our John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With a grenade in one hand and a brand-new AK-47 in the other, Karrar Nouri is a volunteer in Muqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army. He's just 10 years old.

KARRAR NOURI, CHILD SOLDIER (through translator): I am a guard with the Mehdi Army against the Americans.

VAUSE: He's spending school vacation manning a checkpoint in Sadr City, a sprawling slum in Baghdad and stronghold for the rebellious cleric. The boy's father says Karrar has taken part in the fighting against U.S. and Iraqi forces.

FALAH NOURI, FATHER (through translator): I taught him how to shoot. He can now shoot by himself.

VAUSE: He's not the only boy with a gun in Sadr City. There are many others, most in their teens, but a few are younger than Karrar. The U.S. military says they have been fired on by boys. They return with warning shots to try and scare them off.

CAPT. JOHN MEREDITH, U.S. ARMY: Just the fact that they would resort to those kind of tactics kind of tells you who we're fighting.

VAUSE: The Iraqi government says just two children have been killed, 20 wounded, in Sadr City during the recent outbreak of violence. No one knows how many were actually fighting, and how many were caught in the crossfire. But local doctors say the number is much higher. On the day we spoke with Dr. Adel Mezher, he says eight bodies were brought to his hospital, six of them children.

DR. ADEL MEZHER, SADR CITY HOSPITAL (through translator): They were all civilians. Most died inside their homes, killed by mortars and rockets. We don't know who fired at them.

VAUSE: Here, the so-called Mehdi Army holds almost mythical status.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The Mehdi Army is composed of the orphans of those who were murdered in the prisons of Saddam Hussein. They now chant, "We are the Mehdi Army. This is the pride for us."

VAUSE (on camera): Much of Muqtada al-Sadr's support is the legacy of his late father, the Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Sadr. Admired and respected for his opposition to Saddam Hussein, he was shot dead five years ago. But it seems that family reputation for defiance is now inspiring a young new generation of the Mehdi Army. Only this time, it's defiance of the U.S. and the Iraqi interim government.

John Vause, CNN, Sadr City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: And we have a check of the nation's weather. That is coming up next.

Plus, they're unregulated, powerful and, so far, seem unstoppable. Find out why 527s have so much effect on deciding who wins the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: I want to talk to Jacqui Jeras now.

I hear Mother Nature is causing some kinks in travel plans.

(WEATHER REPORT)

NGUYEN: No, we want those details. OK, Jacqui. Thank you.

Well, Jesse Jackson heads to Libya. We'll tell you what he wants from the African nation if leaders there will deliver.

Plus, a hairpiece that's worth its weight in gold.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired August 24, 2004 - 11:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: It is 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast, 8:00 in the West. From the CNN Center right here in Atlanta, I'm Betty Nguyen, in for Daryn Kagan today.
Up first on CNN, finding fault and assigning blame in the Iraqi abuse prisoner scandal. The first of two reports on the scandal at Abu Ghraib prison will be released today and is expected to be critical of top defense officials. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, joins us now with all the details.

Good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Betty.

Well, two reports in the next two days on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. First up today, the so-called Schlesinger report. This is an advisory panel for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld run by former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger. He will report this afternoon his findings on his review of how the investigation into Abu Ghraib was conducted, what happened, what went wrong.

By all accounts, his report will be critical of the so-called command climate in Iraq. He will say that top commanders in the field, as well as Pentagon officials, simply did not pay enough attention to what was going on in Iraq when the U.S. military was running this massive prison system, holding thousands of Iraqis in detention. But that's just the first report.

Tomorrow, the so-called Fay report. That report will have more legal teeth. Of course, that is the Army report into questionable intelligence practices and interrogation practices at Abu Ghraib. That report, tomorrow, expected to name some two dozen personnel, soldiers and contractors, for possible further legal action.

The bottom line here, Betty, is that it's all appearing to shape up that there will be criticism of top senior officials for not exerting the correct leadership, command, devoting enough resources and attention to the situation in the prison system in Iraq, but no legal culpability. That appears at the moment to be stopping with the soldiers and the personnel who worked directly in the prison -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Barbara, we are also hearing there's news coming out of Germany on those hearings there concerning Abu Ghraib. What do you know about that?

STARR: Well, those soldiers, seven of those soldiers, part of -- some of them undergoing continuing hearings in Germany. And late yesterday, there was a statement from an attorney for one of them, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick. He is now apparently agreeing to plead guilty to some of the charges of abuse that he is facing. As part of his plea bargain, once all of that is finalized, it is certainly expected his information will then be used in other prosecutions -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you.

This programming note now. The former commander of military police at Abu Ghraib prison will be a guest on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING." That is tomorrow. You can see the interview with Brigadier General Janis Karpinski at 7:00 a.m. Eastern.

Military proceedings for prisoners labeled enemy combatants formally opened today in Cuba. National correspondent Susan Candiotti is at Guantanamo Bay naval base with the latest on this.

Hi there, Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Betty. Security extremely tight this day. All the action, as it were, is taking place in the building that you can see way off in the distance over my shoulder.

After an unexplained delay, the proceedings finally got under way a little over an hour ago with the words "The military commission is called to order." These are basically pretrial hearings, but just prior to those initial words, the room full of spectators fell silent as the accused, Salim Ahmed Hamdan, of Yemen, entered the room.

He was smiling and shook hands with his military lawyer. He is listening to an interpretation of what is going on over headphones. Everyone is speaking very slowly, and the charges were read.

He is alleged to have conspired to attack civilians, property, and murder, all acts of terrorism. Now, this proceeding is taking place for the first time in 60 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): From this wooden building, and its six by eight-foot holding cells, equipped with a cot, toilet and a copy of the Koran, the first of four defendants accused of war crimes will be taken to court. Uncertainty over exactly how the commission will work continues to dog defense attorneys.

LT. CMDR. PHILIP SUNDELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The fact that the process has been started and they're still defining the rules as we go along, is a fundamental flaw that prevents there from being any possibility of a fair trial.

CANDIOTTI: An especially harsh criticism considering the source, one of the Pentagon's own attorneys appointed to defend the accused. The decision to try U.S. detainees by military commission on foreign soil has raised eyebrows worldwide. MAJ. MICHAEL MORI, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It's a resurrected outdated system that doesn't provide the fundamental protections of procedure or independence of a judge or appeal.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Technically, there is no judge, no independent finder of fact. Here, a presiding officer, for example, also votes on the verdict.

(voice-over): Critics suggest the suspected al Qaeda terrorist could just as easily be tried by court-martial with well-tested rules and procedures. But the Pentagon says they don't qualify for a court- martial because they're technically not prisoners of war fighting for a nation's army. Human rights organizations are among those protesting.

SAMAN ZIA-ZARIFI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: The United States would not be happy if American personnel, if Special Forces, for instance, were arrested in Iran or Syria and subjected to this kind of military commission.

CANDIOTTI: Don't prejudge, says the Pentagon.

LT. SUSAN MCGARVEY, MILITARY COMMISSION SPOKESWOMAN: I think over the course of time people will see that this is the proper venue for trying war crimes during an ongoing armed conflict.

CANDIOTTI: A conflict called the war on terror with no end in sight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: So far, Hamdan has only addressed the court a few times, answering some basic housekeeping questions. And during the course of this pretrial hearing, the defense has the right to question members of the military commission.

Right now, the attorney representing Hamdan is asking questions of the presiding officer. Technically, there is no judge on this panel. This man is a retired military judge who was brought back into active service. He said he volunteered for this job because he said of the constraints on the Army these days.

And then he added this, "I thought I was good at it being a judge. I know I was good at it."

Four defendants are scheduled to appear during the rest of the week. It should wrap up on Friday, although there's no guarantee of that -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Rarely is there a guarantee. All right. Susan Candiotti in Guantanamo Bay. Thank you.

Now to Iraq and a standoff in Najaf. Want to give you a live look right now. The aide says radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is ready to negotiate again. This follows the latest ultimatum for his followers to leave the holy Imam Ali Shrine or face a raid by Iraqi forces.

CNN's Matthew Chance joins us by phone from Najaf with the latest on this deal, perhaps, that could be in the works -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it may be too early at this stage, Betty, to call it a deal simply because over the course of the past two weeks we've been seeing a lot of the political to'ing and fro'ing between the parties involved here. The supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr saying they're ready to negotiate, but not really in the end being prepared to do that.

Also, words from the Iraqi interim government, saying that they're prepared to go into the mosque. But on a number of occasions, not being prepared to do that either.

We're seeing that again right now with words from the Iraqi interim defense minister, saying that this is an ultimatum, that he's -- within the next few hours he's ordering Iraqi security forces to surround the entrances of the Imam Ali mosque, one of the holiest shrines in Shia Islam, to seal off those entrances to prevent people from going in. He's then going to use loud speakers, they say, the Iraqi security forces, to encourage and order people inside that mosque -- and there are many hundreds of people in the mosque, including women and children -- to leave it, or else face an onslaught by Iraqi security forces.

Now, again, this is something that we've heard talked about in the past by the political leadership of Iraq. We're waiting to see whether it happens this time. But if it does, it's obviously an incredibly dangerous strategy because of the sensitivity surrounding this mosque.

It is so holy to so many Shia Muslims around the world. But there are concerns that any damage that may be caused to it in the course of any kind of storming operation may be enough to provoke a ferocious backlash amongst this country's majority Shia population -- Betty.

NGUYEN: But some kind of deal or truce or something has to be made awfully quickly because there's an ultimatum on the table.

CHANCE: Yes. I mean, exactly.

The Iraqi defense minister saying that it's just a matter of hours now until some kind of order is given for the mosque to be surrounded, before the order is given for the mosque to be stormed. But again, this kind of ultimatum, exactly this kind of ultimatum, has been issued in the past by members of the interim Iraqi government.

They're playing a very dangerous game, a very delicate game trying to sort of put not just military pressure on the Mehdi Army. And we're seeing quite significant amounts of that with bombardments by U.S. tanks and warplanes in the skies over Najaf on most nights. They're also trying to play kind of mind games to try and encourage the Mehdi Army to abandon their positions in the old city. And so the hope is, perhaps, that, you know -- and I'm speculating here -- but the hope is that perhaps some kind of political resolution can be reached in this crisis.

NGUYEN: CNN's Matthew Chance following the situation in Najaf. Thank you so much for that.

As the standoff continues in Najaf, violence erupted elsewhere in Iraq today. Witnesses say U.S. warplanes and artillery struck targets in Fallujah in western Iraq. The bombardment continued for more than an hour. There is no immediate comment from the U.S. military.

In Baghdad, two Iraqi government ministers escaped injury in two separate car bombings. But police say five bodyguards were killed and four were wounded in those attacks.

An Italian journalist missing in Iraq turned up today in a video broadcast on the Arab network, Al Jazeera. Enzo Baldoni (ph) disappeared Friday while covering the situation in Najaf. He's shown on the video surrounded by militants. Now, his captors say Rome has 48 hours to pull his troops -- or its troops out of Iraq or Baldoni (ph) will be killed.

Also in Baghdad, freed American journalist Micah Garen held a news conference about two weeks ago. Garen, who was held captive in Iraq for over a week, thanked those who helped secure his release and says he's focused on reuniting with friends and family. Garen's father, who lives in Connecticut, says his son could return to the U.S. later this week. And despite being held there as a hostage for nine days, Garen says he wants to continue a documentary he was filming in Iraq.

Children taking up arms in war? It's a disturbing trend in Iraq. Find out who is punishing them -- or who is pushing them into service.

President Bush and John Kerry have both denounced them, so why don't they stop? Find out why 527 ads are more powerful than ever.

And America's health epidemic gets worse. We'll tell you about alarming new blood pressure statistics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

NGUYEN: As we told you at the top of the hour, the first of two reports on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal will be released less than three hours from now. It's expected to criticize top defense officials. And Scott Silliman is a professor of law at Duke University and a former military lawyer. He joins us in Durham, North Carolina, to give us some insight on these reports.

Good morning to you.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE LAW PROFESSOR: Good morning, Betty. It's a pleasure to be with you.

NGUYEN: Wonderful. Well, we've been talking about the Schlesinger report this morning. So I want to focus a little bit on the Fay report, which is expected to come out tomorrow.

Today, in "The Washington Post," the Fay report supposedly is going to be dealing with the use of attack dogs on Iraqi teenagers. Who do you know about that?

SILLIMAN: Well, it's something we hadn't heard about before, Betty. And obviously it just adds more fuel to the issue of exactly what atrocities were done in that cell block.

It also, we hear, will include many more that are being singled out for punitive action. But, again, it's suggesting that they're at the lower level. In this case, military intelligence groups, up through and including Colonel Pappas and Brigadier General Karpinski on the military police side of the house.

Again, the Fay report, when it comes out and is delivered to Congress, will not look any higher than General Sanchez at his command headquarters at Baghdad. That's to be complemented by this report which will be released this afternoon, the Schlesinger report, which I think is a sleeper. Most people didn't anticipate it would be so significant, and it's turning out to be.

NGUYEN: Why is it just looking at the lower levels and the ranks here on the Fay report? Why doesn't it go up any higher?

SILLIMAN: Well, one of the problems, again, Betty, is that you cannot go higher than the appointing authority allows you to go. And that capped at General Sanchez.

Of course, the Army made the smart decision to allow a four-star general to become involved so that Sanchez himself could be investigated. But the Fay inquiry cannot in any way reach the Pentagon, can't reach Dick Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So you have to look for the other report to give you the higher up, the leadership issues. And, again, that's why these two reports complement one another.

NGUYEN: Do you expect that in these reports they are going to name names and assign blame?

SILLIMAN: I think they will at the lower level, Betty. I think, particularly, as far as some of the military intelligence folks that were actually in the cell block at Abu Ghraib, I think we might find some mention of what they call OGA, other government agencies. That's a synonym for the CIA, civilian contractors.

So we're going to have a broader view of who was involved in the cell block. But everyone wants to know how high up does it go as far as who created this counterculture of avoidance of the Geneva Conventions, which is the center issue in this whole case.

NGUYEN: Do you think it's going to recommend punishment for these people named?

SILLIMAN: I think they won't recommend specific punishment. I think we're going to see a variety of recommendations, ranging all the way from administrative reprimands and sanctions, perhaps Article 15 punishment, perhaps recommendations for courts-martial action, like the military police are now facing all over the world.

NGUYEN: Is that going to hope the folks in Germany, those soldiers that are facing courts-martial?

SILLIMAN: Well, I think the defense lawyers for those folks, Betty, are going to want to capitalize on the fact that it's not just six or seven that were involved who have already been identified. They have been trying to show that they were at least influenced, if not ordered by military intelligence folks and other government agencies.

The Fay investigation will seek in some ways to help the defense in their arguments. They may not get their clients off, but they will sure mitigate punishment.

NGUYEN: All right. Professor Scott Silliman, we appreciate your time and your insight this morning.

SILLIMAN: Thanks, Betty.

NGUYEN: The battle between coalition forces and followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is claiming many casualties. Some of them not even old enough to be in their teens. Here's our John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With a grenade in one hand and a brand-new AK-47 in the other, Karrar Nouri is a volunteer in Muqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army. He's just 10 years old.

KARRAR NOURI, CHILD SOLDIER (through translator): I am a guard with the Mehdi Army against the Americans.

VAUSE: He's spending school vacation manning a checkpoint in Sadr City, a sprawling slum in Baghdad and stronghold for the rebellious cleric. The boy's father says Karrar has taken part in the fighting against U.S. and Iraqi forces.

FALAH NOURI, FATHER (through translator): I taught him how to shoot. He can now shoot by himself.

VAUSE: He's not the only boy with a gun in Sadr City. There are many others, most in their teens, but a few are younger than Karrar. The U.S. military says they have been fired on by boys. They return with warning shots to try and scare them off.

CAPT. JOHN MEREDITH, U.S. ARMY: Just the fact that they would resort to those kind of tactics kind of tells you who we're fighting.

VAUSE: The Iraqi government says just two children have been killed, 20 wounded, in Sadr City during the recent outbreak of violence. No one knows how many were actually fighting, and how many were caught in the crossfire. But local doctors say the number is much higher. On the day we spoke with Dr. Adel Mezher, he says eight bodies were brought to his hospital, six of them children.

DR. ADEL MEZHER, SADR CITY HOSPITAL (through translator): They were all civilians. Most died inside their homes, killed by mortars and rockets. We don't know who fired at them.

VAUSE: Here, the so-called Mehdi Army holds almost mythical status.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The Mehdi Army is composed of the orphans of those who were murdered in the prisons of Saddam Hussein. They now chant, "We are the Mehdi Army. This is the pride for us."

VAUSE (on camera): Much of Muqtada al-Sadr's support is the legacy of his late father, the Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Sadr. Admired and respected for his opposition to Saddam Hussein, he was shot dead five years ago. But it seems that family reputation for defiance is now inspiring a young new generation of the Mehdi Army. Only this time, it's defiance of the U.S. and the Iraqi interim government.

John Vause, CNN, Sadr City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: And we have a check of the nation's weather. That is coming up next.

Plus, they're unregulated, powerful and, so far, seem unstoppable. Find out why 527s have so much effect on deciding who wins the White House.

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NGUYEN: I want to talk to Jacqui Jeras now.

I hear Mother Nature is causing some kinks in travel plans.

(WEATHER REPORT)

NGUYEN: No, we want those details. OK, Jacqui. Thank you.

Well, Jesse Jackson heads to Libya. We'll tell you what he wants from the African nation if leaders there will deliver.

Plus, a hairpiece that's worth its weight in gold.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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