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CNN Live Today

Federal Ban on Assault Weapons About to Become History; Discussion with Jimmy Carter and Willie Nelson

Aired September 10, 2004 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Residents of the Florida Keys are gassing up and they are heading north. Some 60,000 people expected to leave the area today, as Hurricane Ivan continues to churn through the Caribbean. The category-four storm expected to hit Jamaica tonight. A government officials says only 300 people there have moved into shelters so far.
Investigators are trying to find out what caused an explosion at a Colchester, Connecticut Church. That happened about 3 1/2 hours ago. As you can see from the pictures, from our affiliate, WTNH, the church was completely destroyed. No reports, though, of any injuries.

Two inmates at a Nevada prison are being questioned about bobby- trapped letters sent to five governors. Those envelopes were rigged with matches set to ignite when the envelopes were opened. The envelopes did catch fire after being opened in the governor's offices in Montana, Idaho and Nebraska. There were no injuries. A nationwide alert went out before similar envelopes were opened in Washington and Utah.

And in Iraq, in Najaf today, a protest against radical cleric Muqtada Al Sadr. About 1,000 demonstrators demanded that Al Sadr leave Najaf. The protesters also called on the Iraqi government to punish members of Al Sadr's religious court. That court has been accused of terrorizing and killing Al Sadr's opponent. And Al Sadr said today's rally was an attempt to create tension.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: Right now, some political news. Ten years after it became law, the federal ban on assault weapons is about to become history. It is set to expire Monday night. Despite a call to action by gun control activists, some politicians and even a contingent of law enforcement leaders.

Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns explains why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the assault weapons ban set to expire, gun control supporters say a decade of progress is coming to an end.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've seen the supply of these guns on the street dry up.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: We know that there is traffic between terrorists and assault weapons.

JOHNS: Underscoring that point, that terrorists could get easier access to more weapons, explosive newspaper ads by the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence are set to run in New York and Washington, accusing the president of blocking a renewal of the ban.

But President Bush says he'll sign one. Democrats question why he hasn't pressured House Republicans to produce one.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: He only need pick up the phone and call Tom DeLay, and the bill would be on the floor.

JOHNS: One recent poll suggests an overwhelming majority of the public supports the ban, but congressional leaders say they have no plan to bring it up for renewal.

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: It's a feel-good piece of legislation, and all it does is punish those -- those people that are -- that live by the law and does nothing to keep assault weapons -- assault weapons out of the hands of criminals.

JOHNS (on camera): If the president asked you to bring it up, would you put it on the floor?

DELAY: No I would not. There are not the votes to pass the bill. If the president asked me, I would tell him the same thing.

JOHNS: So why aren't the votes there if the ban has so much support? For one thing, members of Congress from areas where gun ownership is high, tend to be opposed to it, regardless of party affiliation.

And then there's the power of the National Rifle Association, which wants the ban lifted.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE V.P., NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION: A majority of congressmen have learned that these guns aren't machine guns. They don't fire faster. They don't spray bullets. They don't make bigger holes. They're not convertible to machine guns.

JOHNS: The NRA has a lot of members, money and clout, especially in states with large numbers of gun owners. John Kerry is for renewing the assault weapons ban but also counts himself as a supporter of Second Amendment rights.

Kerry is expected to call for extending the ban, although few think it's now possible.

Will all this have any impact on the campaign? When CNN last polled on what issues mattered to Americans, guns ranked second to last.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Some law enforcement officials are also calling for the ban to be renewed. Police chiefs from Los Angeles, Washington and other major metro areas assembled on Capitol Hill, warning that violent gun crimes will increase if the ban expires.

Joining me, Richard J. Pennington, Atlanta's chief of police, one of those attended the news conference.

Chief, good morning. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy day.

RICHARD J. PENNINGTON, ATLANTA'S CHIEF OF POLICE: Good morning. Thank you.

KAGAN: Why are you concerned about this ban expiring?

PENNINGTON: Well, first of all, we are concerned about the ban expiring because 18-year-olds now, come September the 13th, will be able to walk into a gun store, purchase AK-47s, Uzis and Tec-9s; 13 years old can walk into a gun -- when they have these gun shows in town, they can purchases weapons, AK-47, 13-year-olds.

KAGAN: A thirty-year-olds -- legally that can happen?

PENNINGTON: Legally. Legally. Terrorists can walk into a gun show and purchase automatic weapons, and without a background check. So if the president and Congress is very concerned and serious about homeland security, we're trying to keep these military-style weapons off of our streets.

KAGAN: House majority leader Tom DeLay in explaining why it's OK to let this ban expire said, really, this is just feel-good legislation, and at the end of the day, it does not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, only out of the law-abiding citizen's hands. What do you say to that?

PENNINGTON: I disagree with that. Since this law was enacted in 1994, we've had a 66 percent decrease in incidents involving those assault weapons, since 1994. We see it every day in law enforcement. That is -- those military weapons are used by criminals on our streets. They're not used for hunting. Those weapons don't serve any useful purpose in our cities. And we're very concerned about it. You look at gangs, and you look at narcotic violent gang members, that is the weapon of choice. Those military assault weapons. And we don't want them on the streets.

KAGAN: So, chief, where is the public outcry? Chiefs like you are speaking out, gun control advocates. But as you heard in Joe Johns' piece, he said in a recent CNN poll, asking voters thought what they care about, issues like this with guns, second to last in terms of what people are really concerned about. Where is that outcry?

PENNINGTON: Well, normally that's always the case until it happens to one of us, or one of our family members. It's not a priority right now, until you have some young person or some person walk into a school with a military weapon and kill, you know, 20, 30, 40 young kids, then it will become a priority.

My concern is that when you look at what these guns do in our communities, and the death it has caused over the years, then law enforcement has to step up. We're speaking out because we care about the people that live in our communities. We see the carnage every day.

KAGAN: I might be making a stereotype here, but I would think if you take law enforcement types, chiefs of police, as a group, liberal is not a label I would technically -- typically put. So what is it like to come up with an issue like this and go up against people who perhaps don't want the same thing that you do?

PENNINGTON: Well, it's hard. It's very difficult. Myself, along with other members of law enforcement, we went to Washington a couple of days ago. Chief Charles Ramsey, a good friend of mine, he eloquently stated, it's a no-brainer. And I think that, you know, the Congress ought to look at this issue. We talk about homeland security, and we talk about terrorism. Here is, now, a terrorist can walk into a gun show, purchase an AK-47, without a background check.

KAGAN: Let me ask you this real quickly. So as this expires, and that's going to be the reality, how as a chief of police of a major metropolitan area, how do you get ready for that?

PENNINGTON: Well, we get ready for it by reeducating our officers, retraining our officers about the death and destruction that these weapons cause. Many of our officers know that already, but we now have to come back and refocus our training efforts in our departments, and let our officers know that these weapons will be used against police officers as well. And we're concerned about that.

In Birmingham, a couple of months ago, three police officers shot down, killed on the streets as a result of one of those military style weapons. And so it's going to be important for us to raise the level of consciousness in our departments so we can stay on top of this issue. It's a very important issue to all chief law enforcement officers, and police officers throughout America.

KAGAN: Chief Pennington, good luck in trying to keep Atlanta safe. As a resident, I congratulate you on that.

PENNINGTON: Thank you.

KAGAN: And keeping your officers safe as well. Chief Richard Pennington, chief of police Atlanta.

PENNINGTON: Thank you.

KAGAN: Thank you, sir.

Well, questions are being raised now about the authenticity of some newly surfaced documents concerning President Bush's Vietnam Era military service. The documents were shown on CBS's "60 Minutes II" on Wednesday night. They apparently show that Mr. Bush's Air National Guard squadron felt pressure to sugarcoat his records.

But today's "Washington Post" cites experts who suggest the documents may have been made on a computer or a word processor, not on a Vietnam war-era typewriter. The "Post" also quotes the squadron commander's widow, who describes the documents as, quote, "a farce."

President Bush is speaking at a rally in Huntington, West Virginia at this hour. The president has not made public comment on the CBS story or the doubts about it. CBS, by the way, says it stands by its report.

Meanwhile, it might be appropriate that Bush's challenger is in the "Show Me" state this morning. John Kerry due to host a town hall meeting this hour in St. Louis, Missouri. Congressman Dick Gephardt is also expected to take part in the discussion of health care issues. Kerry had seriously considered Gephardt for his vice presidential running mate.

So, I had an interesting way to spend my Thursday afternoon, drove down to Plains, Georgia for a chance to talk with former president Jimmy Carter and country western star Willie Nelson. The two old friends came together. They are shooting a program for CMT Television, celebrating small towns, like plains. But before they got around to the celebrating, President Carter and Willie Nelson sat down with me to talk politics, including the current presidential campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Why aren't we seeing you out on the campaign trail a little bit more?

JIMMY CARTER (D), FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I do what I can, you know, as a senior statesman. I made a speech at the Democratic National Convention.

KAGAN: That, you did.

CARTER: And sometimes when there's some irresponsible statements made by other people, I try to respond to them in a way. And I talked to either John Kerry or his campaign managers on occasion to give them my thoughts about what they may or may not do.

KAGAN: What are your thoughts about how the campaign is going, and accusations that he's flip-flopping, the campaign doesn't have direction?

CARTER: Well, he hasn't flip-flopped. You know, obviously as I know from politics, anybody else that studies it, there are a lot of gray areas, and a lot of -- sometimes hundreds of votes on a particular issue before the final vote either passes or fails it, on a particular bill.

And when the opponents go and get different votes on different amendments, you can make any member of the Senate, or the House or any governor or so forth look like they're flip-flopping. But John Kerry has been very stable and very consistent. He's been against any sort of preemptive war. I think the war in Iraq was foolish, ill advised, unnecessary, and it's a disaster now. And I think John Kerry's made that plain.

KAGAN: Does it frustrate you then how the campaign is going? CARTER: Well I don't know how the campaign is going exactly. You know, the Republicans got some boost from their convention, because it was almost entirely a negative convention. And of course, negative campaigning and lies about people, misleading statements, seem to bear fruit, for at least a period of time. But I think John Kerry's sticking to the truth and sticking to his consistent positions, and he's going to be OK.

WILLIE NELSON, COUNTRY SINGER: I think celebrities, entertainers, everybody should get political at this time. It's not about getting into politics, it's about getting into America, because there's a lot of things at stake. Most elections really don't affect you and I that much. This one does, and will. So that's why I think a lot of entertainers are making their voices heard, regardless of what other people might think about it. It doesn't matter what we do for a living.

KAGAN: But you're a citizen first?

NELSON: Absolutely.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And I will have more of my conversation with President Carter and Willie Nelson in the next hour, including what President Carter told Bill Clinton right before that former president had open heart surgery.

The CMT special, by the way, featuring Plains, Georgia will air in early December.

Also, sitting down for a CNN interview, President Bush's national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. She shared her thoughts with CNN senior White House correspondent John King on a number of topics, including the recently released videotape by top Bin Laden lieutenant Ayman Al Zawahiri. She scoffed at the tape's central claim that the U.S. is losing control of Iraq and Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: Their world is shrinking. We now have an Afghan government that is, of course, an ally in the war on terrorism. We've taken down in Iraq a leader who was a destabilizing force in the Middle East, and now we have a chance for a different kind of Middle East.

We have, of course, made progress in proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, hopefully improving our chances of denying those terrible weapons to places -- to groups like Al Qaeda, and we've taken down three-quarters of the Al Qaeda leadership and members. So their world is shrinking. We are making strides forward in this war on terrorism, and we will win it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Also this note on that tape by Al-Zawahiri, CNN has now confirmed that that is an authentic tape that was turned in and played on the Arab television network Al-Jazeera. Significant that it was done and played so close to the September 11th anniversary.

More ahead in the next hour on that tape. I'll have to chance to talk with one of our terrorism analysts, Peter Bergen, on that, and also on Osama Bin Laden.

We'll take a break. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Let's get more information on the tape by Ayman Al- Zawahiri and the confirmation that it is indeed him on that tape.

Our David Ensor standing by in Washington -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, a CIA official saying it is indeed Al-Zawahiri. No surprise there, certainly. The official adding, though, more interestingly, that given the reference to the Darfur situation on this videotape, the CIA does believe this is a fairly recently recorded tape.

As to whether it portends an attack, whether it is a trigger, officials note there have been tapes from Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri that have produced attacks within days. There have also been tapes that have not. The officials saying there is no one-to-one relationship on this. So it's really hard to predict.

Now that said, officials are telling me that their level of concern about the potential for terrorism in the coming days is fairly high. There is additional intelligence that is causing them considerable concern. So this tape is getting plenty of attention, and clearly when the rest of it is broadcast by the Al-Jazeera network over at the CIA they'll be analyzing those words very closely indeed.

KAGAN: Are you able to share with us that additional intelligence that is causing concern among intelligence analysts?

ENSOR: I have nothing more specific on that. There is, however, some discussions, some indication, apparently, that there might be another tape coming out. This one would be from Osama bin Laden. The rumor is, and that's about the best you can say, that he might declare an end to the truce that was declared with Europe. Of course, the three-month period that was supposedly covered by that truce has long expired. So some intelligence officials believe there will be an Osama bin Laden tape in the coming days -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And, David, what about the taunting nature of this tape, just the idea that they can get a tape out like this, but Al-Zawahiri and Osama Bin Laden cannot be found.

ENSOR: Well, that's right. It's been some time since either of these two individuals were able to put out a videotape as well produced as this, clearly in cooperation with a cameraman who knows what he or she is doing. So this suggests a level of confidence on their part that we haven't seen for some time. It's all been audio tapes, and not very good quality ones at that. A CIA official noting that it's not been since December of 2001 that Zawahiri last put out a tape that you could definitely say was an updated statement recently recorded, like this one appears to be, Daryn.

KAGAN: And so they're able to confirm it's him, but if you look at the background, really no clue as to where that could have been shot?

ENSOR: That's right. Not from the background there. They do have ways of analyzing this tape. They can sometimes find out things that they don't want to discuss with us, but it doesn't look like they know where this was recorded. They are saying they believe Zawahiri, as they've been saying all along, is somewhere in the Pakistan-Afghan border area.

KAGAN: All right, David Ensor, thank you so much, the latest from Washington D.C.

KAGAN: Still ahead, we're going to tell you about a tragedy at Colorado State University. A sophomore found dead with four times the legal little of alcohol in her system. A new study says college binge drinking is worse than ever. You'll hear just how serious that problem has become.

I wonder if you could get your face on a postage stamp. Jeanne Moos shows you that you can personalize your stamps, what's allowed, what is not allowed.

More just ahead. Let's take a break now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Showing you a live picture of Huntington, West Virginia. You're going to recognize those two faces at the podium, Georgia Senator Zell Miller, a Democrat, introducing President George W. Bush.

This is a West Virginia campaign event. We're going to monitor it, listen to what the president has to say, and bring you more just ahead. Right now, another break. More news at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired September 10, 2004 - 10:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Residents of the Florida Keys are gassing up and they are heading north. Some 60,000 people expected to leave the area today, as Hurricane Ivan continues to churn through the Caribbean. The category-four storm expected to hit Jamaica tonight. A government officials says only 300 people there have moved into shelters so far.
Investigators are trying to find out what caused an explosion at a Colchester, Connecticut Church. That happened about 3 1/2 hours ago. As you can see from the pictures, from our affiliate, WTNH, the church was completely destroyed. No reports, though, of any injuries.

Two inmates at a Nevada prison are being questioned about bobby- trapped letters sent to five governors. Those envelopes were rigged with matches set to ignite when the envelopes were opened. The envelopes did catch fire after being opened in the governor's offices in Montana, Idaho and Nebraska. There were no injuries. A nationwide alert went out before similar envelopes were opened in Washington and Utah.

And in Iraq, in Najaf today, a protest against radical cleric Muqtada Al Sadr. About 1,000 demonstrators demanded that Al Sadr leave Najaf. The protesters also called on the Iraqi government to punish members of Al Sadr's religious court. That court has been accused of terrorizing and killing Al Sadr's opponent. And Al Sadr said today's rally was an attempt to create tension.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: Right now, some political news. Ten years after it became law, the federal ban on assault weapons is about to become history. It is set to expire Monday night. Despite a call to action by gun control activists, some politicians and even a contingent of law enforcement leaders.

Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns explains why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the assault weapons ban set to expire, gun control supporters say a decade of progress is coming to an end.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've seen the supply of these guns on the street dry up.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: We know that there is traffic between terrorists and assault weapons.

JOHNS: Underscoring that point, that terrorists could get easier access to more weapons, explosive newspaper ads by the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence are set to run in New York and Washington, accusing the president of blocking a renewal of the ban.

But President Bush says he'll sign one. Democrats question why he hasn't pressured House Republicans to produce one.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: He only need pick up the phone and call Tom DeLay, and the bill would be on the floor.

JOHNS: One recent poll suggests an overwhelming majority of the public supports the ban, but congressional leaders say they have no plan to bring it up for renewal.

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: It's a feel-good piece of legislation, and all it does is punish those -- those people that are -- that live by the law and does nothing to keep assault weapons -- assault weapons out of the hands of criminals.

JOHNS (on camera): If the president asked you to bring it up, would you put it on the floor?

DELAY: No I would not. There are not the votes to pass the bill. If the president asked me, I would tell him the same thing.

JOHNS: So why aren't the votes there if the ban has so much support? For one thing, members of Congress from areas where gun ownership is high, tend to be opposed to it, regardless of party affiliation.

And then there's the power of the National Rifle Association, which wants the ban lifted.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE V.P., NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION: A majority of congressmen have learned that these guns aren't machine guns. They don't fire faster. They don't spray bullets. They don't make bigger holes. They're not convertible to machine guns.

JOHNS: The NRA has a lot of members, money and clout, especially in states with large numbers of gun owners. John Kerry is for renewing the assault weapons ban but also counts himself as a supporter of Second Amendment rights.

Kerry is expected to call for extending the ban, although few think it's now possible.

Will all this have any impact on the campaign? When CNN last polled on what issues mattered to Americans, guns ranked second to last.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Some law enforcement officials are also calling for the ban to be renewed. Police chiefs from Los Angeles, Washington and other major metro areas assembled on Capitol Hill, warning that violent gun crimes will increase if the ban expires.

Joining me, Richard J. Pennington, Atlanta's chief of police, one of those attended the news conference.

Chief, good morning. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy day.

RICHARD J. PENNINGTON, ATLANTA'S CHIEF OF POLICE: Good morning. Thank you.

KAGAN: Why are you concerned about this ban expiring?

PENNINGTON: Well, first of all, we are concerned about the ban expiring because 18-year-olds now, come September the 13th, will be able to walk into a gun store, purchase AK-47s, Uzis and Tec-9s; 13 years old can walk into a gun -- when they have these gun shows in town, they can purchases weapons, AK-47, 13-year-olds.

KAGAN: A thirty-year-olds -- legally that can happen?

PENNINGTON: Legally. Legally. Terrorists can walk into a gun show and purchase automatic weapons, and without a background check. So if the president and Congress is very concerned and serious about homeland security, we're trying to keep these military-style weapons off of our streets.

KAGAN: House majority leader Tom DeLay in explaining why it's OK to let this ban expire said, really, this is just feel-good legislation, and at the end of the day, it does not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, only out of the law-abiding citizen's hands. What do you say to that?

PENNINGTON: I disagree with that. Since this law was enacted in 1994, we've had a 66 percent decrease in incidents involving those assault weapons, since 1994. We see it every day in law enforcement. That is -- those military weapons are used by criminals on our streets. They're not used for hunting. Those weapons don't serve any useful purpose in our cities. And we're very concerned about it. You look at gangs, and you look at narcotic violent gang members, that is the weapon of choice. Those military assault weapons. And we don't want them on the streets.

KAGAN: So, chief, where is the public outcry? Chiefs like you are speaking out, gun control advocates. But as you heard in Joe Johns' piece, he said in a recent CNN poll, asking voters thought what they care about, issues like this with guns, second to last in terms of what people are really concerned about. Where is that outcry?

PENNINGTON: Well, normally that's always the case until it happens to one of us, or one of our family members. It's not a priority right now, until you have some young person or some person walk into a school with a military weapon and kill, you know, 20, 30, 40 young kids, then it will become a priority.

My concern is that when you look at what these guns do in our communities, and the death it has caused over the years, then law enforcement has to step up. We're speaking out because we care about the people that live in our communities. We see the carnage every day.

KAGAN: I might be making a stereotype here, but I would think if you take law enforcement types, chiefs of police, as a group, liberal is not a label I would technically -- typically put. So what is it like to come up with an issue like this and go up against people who perhaps don't want the same thing that you do?

PENNINGTON: Well, it's hard. It's very difficult. Myself, along with other members of law enforcement, we went to Washington a couple of days ago. Chief Charles Ramsey, a good friend of mine, he eloquently stated, it's a no-brainer. And I think that, you know, the Congress ought to look at this issue. We talk about homeland security, and we talk about terrorism. Here is, now, a terrorist can walk into a gun show, purchase an AK-47, without a background check.

KAGAN: Let me ask you this real quickly. So as this expires, and that's going to be the reality, how as a chief of police of a major metropolitan area, how do you get ready for that?

PENNINGTON: Well, we get ready for it by reeducating our officers, retraining our officers about the death and destruction that these weapons cause. Many of our officers know that already, but we now have to come back and refocus our training efforts in our departments, and let our officers know that these weapons will be used against police officers as well. And we're concerned about that.

In Birmingham, a couple of months ago, three police officers shot down, killed on the streets as a result of one of those military style weapons. And so it's going to be important for us to raise the level of consciousness in our departments so we can stay on top of this issue. It's a very important issue to all chief law enforcement officers, and police officers throughout America.

KAGAN: Chief Pennington, good luck in trying to keep Atlanta safe. As a resident, I congratulate you on that.

PENNINGTON: Thank you.

KAGAN: And keeping your officers safe as well. Chief Richard Pennington, chief of police Atlanta.

PENNINGTON: Thank you.

KAGAN: Thank you, sir.

Well, questions are being raised now about the authenticity of some newly surfaced documents concerning President Bush's Vietnam Era military service. The documents were shown on CBS's "60 Minutes II" on Wednesday night. They apparently show that Mr. Bush's Air National Guard squadron felt pressure to sugarcoat his records.

But today's "Washington Post" cites experts who suggest the documents may have been made on a computer or a word processor, not on a Vietnam war-era typewriter. The "Post" also quotes the squadron commander's widow, who describes the documents as, quote, "a farce."

President Bush is speaking at a rally in Huntington, West Virginia at this hour. The president has not made public comment on the CBS story or the doubts about it. CBS, by the way, says it stands by its report.

Meanwhile, it might be appropriate that Bush's challenger is in the "Show Me" state this morning. John Kerry due to host a town hall meeting this hour in St. Louis, Missouri. Congressman Dick Gephardt is also expected to take part in the discussion of health care issues. Kerry had seriously considered Gephardt for his vice presidential running mate.

So, I had an interesting way to spend my Thursday afternoon, drove down to Plains, Georgia for a chance to talk with former president Jimmy Carter and country western star Willie Nelson. The two old friends came together. They are shooting a program for CMT Television, celebrating small towns, like plains. But before they got around to the celebrating, President Carter and Willie Nelson sat down with me to talk politics, including the current presidential campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Why aren't we seeing you out on the campaign trail a little bit more?

JIMMY CARTER (D), FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I do what I can, you know, as a senior statesman. I made a speech at the Democratic National Convention.

KAGAN: That, you did.

CARTER: And sometimes when there's some irresponsible statements made by other people, I try to respond to them in a way. And I talked to either John Kerry or his campaign managers on occasion to give them my thoughts about what they may or may not do.

KAGAN: What are your thoughts about how the campaign is going, and accusations that he's flip-flopping, the campaign doesn't have direction?

CARTER: Well, he hasn't flip-flopped. You know, obviously as I know from politics, anybody else that studies it, there are a lot of gray areas, and a lot of -- sometimes hundreds of votes on a particular issue before the final vote either passes or fails it, on a particular bill.

And when the opponents go and get different votes on different amendments, you can make any member of the Senate, or the House or any governor or so forth look like they're flip-flopping. But John Kerry has been very stable and very consistent. He's been against any sort of preemptive war. I think the war in Iraq was foolish, ill advised, unnecessary, and it's a disaster now. And I think John Kerry's made that plain.

KAGAN: Does it frustrate you then how the campaign is going? CARTER: Well I don't know how the campaign is going exactly. You know, the Republicans got some boost from their convention, because it was almost entirely a negative convention. And of course, negative campaigning and lies about people, misleading statements, seem to bear fruit, for at least a period of time. But I think John Kerry's sticking to the truth and sticking to his consistent positions, and he's going to be OK.

WILLIE NELSON, COUNTRY SINGER: I think celebrities, entertainers, everybody should get political at this time. It's not about getting into politics, it's about getting into America, because there's a lot of things at stake. Most elections really don't affect you and I that much. This one does, and will. So that's why I think a lot of entertainers are making their voices heard, regardless of what other people might think about it. It doesn't matter what we do for a living.

KAGAN: But you're a citizen first?

NELSON: Absolutely.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And I will have more of my conversation with President Carter and Willie Nelson in the next hour, including what President Carter told Bill Clinton right before that former president had open heart surgery.

The CMT special, by the way, featuring Plains, Georgia will air in early December.

Also, sitting down for a CNN interview, President Bush's national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. She shared her thoughts with CNN senior White House correspondent John King on a number of topics, including the recently released videotape by top Bin Laden lieutenant Ayman Al Zawahiri. She scoffed at the tape's central claim that the U.S. is losing control of Iraq and Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: Their world is shrinking. We now have an Afghan government that is, of course, an ally in the war on terrorism. We've taken down in Iraq a leader who was a destabilizing force in the Middle East, and now we have a chance for a different kind of Middle East.

We have, of course, made progress in proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, hopefully improving our chances of denying those terrible weapons to places -- to groups like Al Qaeda, and we've taken down three-quarters of the Al Qaeda leadership and members. So their world is shrinking. We are making strides forward in this war on terrorism, and we will win it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Also this note on that tape by Al-Zawahiri, CNN has now confirmed that that is an authentic tape that was turned in and played on the Arab television network Al-Jazeera. Significant that it was done and played so close to the September 11th anniversary.

More ahead in the next hour on that tape. I'll have to chance to talk with one of our terrorism analysts, Peter Bergen, on that, and also on Osama Bin Laden.

We'll take a break. We're back after this.

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KAGAN: Let's get more information on the tape by Ayman Al- Zawahiri and the confirmation that it is indeed him on that tape.

Our David Ensor standing by in Washington -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, a CIA official saying it is indeed Al-Zawahiri. No surprise there, certainly. The official adding, though, more interestingly, that given the reference to the Darfur situation on this videotape, the CIA does believe this is a fairly recently recorded tape.

As to whether it portends an attack, whether it is a trigger, officials note there have been tapes from Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri that have produced attacks within days. There have also been tapes that have not. The officials saying there is no one-to-one relationship on this. So it's really hard to predict.

Now that said, officials are telling me that their level of concern about the potential for terrorism in the coming days is fairly high. There is additional intelligence that is causing them considerable concern. So this tape is getting plenty of attention, and clearly when the rest of it is broadcast by the Al-Jazeera network over at the CIA they'll be analyzing those words very closely indeed.

KAGAN: Are you able to share with us that additional intelligence that is causing concern among intelligence analysts?

ENSOR: I have nothing more specific on that. There is, however, some discussions, some indication, apparently, that there might be another tape coming out. This one would be from Osama bin Laden. The rumor is, and that's about the best you can say, that he might declare an end to the truce that was declared with Europe. Of course, the three-month period that was supposedly covered by that truce has long expired. So some intelligence officials believe there will be an Osama bin Laden tape in the coming days -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And, David, what about the taunting nature of this tape, just the idea that they can get a tape out like this, but Al-Zawahiri and Osama Bin Laden cannot be found.

ENSOR: Well, that's right. It's been some time since either of these two individuals were able to put out a videotape as well produced as this, clearly in cooperation with a cameraman who knows what he or she is doing. So this suggests a level of confidence on their part that we haven't seen for some time. It's all been audio tapes, and not very good quality ones at that. A CIA official noting that it's not been since December of 2001 that Zawahiri last put out a tape that you could definitely say was an updated statement recently recorded, like this one appears to be, Daryn.

KAGAN: And so they're able to confirm it's him, but if you look at the background, really no clue as to where that could have been shot?

ENSOR: That's right. Not from the background there. They do have ways of analyzing this tape. They can sometimes find out things that they don't want to discuss with us, but it doesn't look like they know where this was recorded. They are saying they believe Zawahiri, as they've been saying all along, is somewhere in the Pakistan-Afghan border area.

KAGAN: All right, David Ensor, thank you so much, the latest from Washington D.C.

KAGAN: Still ahead, we're going to tell you about a tragedy at Colorado State University. A sophomore found dead with four times the legal little of alcohol in her system. A new study says college binge drinking is worse than ever. You'll hear just how serious that problem has become.

I wonder if you could get your face on a postage stamp. Jeanne Moos shows you that you can personalize your stamps, what's allowed, what is not allowed.

More just ahead. Let's take a break now.

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KAGAN: Showing you a live picture of Huntington, West Virginia. You're going to recognize those two faces at the podium, Georgia Senator Zell Miller, a Democrat, introducing President George W. Bush.

This is a West Virginia campaign event. We're going to monitor it, listen to what the president has to say, and bring you more just ahead. Right now, another break. More news at the top of the hour.

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