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Florida Supreme Court Ruling in Terri Schiavo Case; Allawi Gives Hopeful Assessment of Iraq's Future; New Children's Book: "Science Verse"

Aired September 23, 2004 - 11:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this just in. A Florida Supreme Court ruling in the Terri Schiavo case. She's the woman who is brain damaged and has been on a feeding tube.
Let's go to our John Zarrella in Miami with more on this -- John.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a pretty emotional case here in the state of Florida. As many people remember, it captivated the -- the imagination and captivated everyone from -- from coast to coast here.

The Florida Supreme Court ruling just a few minutes ago -- and I'm going to read it exactly what they say -- that "The Terri Schiavo law, the underlying procedural history of this case concludes that the law violates the fundamental constitutional of separation of powers and is thereby unconstitutional both on its face and as it applied to Theresa Schiavo."

As many people remember, what happened was that a lower court had ruled that the feeding tube could be removed, Terri Schiavo's feeding tube could be removed. The family then went to Governor Bush, asking, appealing to the governor. The state legislature then passed, what became known as Terri's law, which allowed the governor to basically circumvent the court. So the governor was able then to get this law, which allowed him to have the feeding tube re-inserted.

What it says in its conclusion, the court says, "The continuing vitality of our system of separation of powers precludes the other two branches from nullifying the judicial branch's final orders."

Bottom line, the judicial branch had made a ruling, and then the state legislature went and passed a law which circumvented what the courts had done. So thus, the violation of the separation of powers. Now, this Terri Schiavo case, it has been tremendously emotional for both the family and her husband, who has wanted her removed from the feeding tube and it has been going on now for more than 12 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZARRELLA (voice-over): Terri Schiavo was 26 years old when her life and the lives of those who loved her changed forever. Heart failure stopped the flow of oxygen and left her severely brain damaged.

For the next 14 years, her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, believing their daughter could be rehabilitated with therapy, fought to have her kept alive on life support.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have always thought there was hope. When I go in there and she responds to me, she knows I'm there.

ZARRELLA: But Terri's husband, Michael, saw it differently. Although Terri did not leave written instructions, Michael Schiavo insisted his wife made it clear she would never want to live on life support.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn't want to be kept alive on anything artificial. She didn't want any tubes. She didn't want to be a burden to people. She's made the comment to me; she made the comments to other people also.

ZARRELLA: The battle over what was best for Terri went to state and federal court and through the appeals process. In nearly every instance, the courts sided with her husband. In the eyes of the Florida circuit court, Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. The court ruled there was no evidence that therapy would lead to any form of recovery.

On Wednesday, October 15th, Terri's feeding tube was removed. Outside the hospice, people who believed that rehabilitation should be give be a chance prayed.

UNIDENTIFIED: We pray to the divine intercelestial (ph) mighty God.

ZARRELLA: The family, out of legal options, met with Governor Jeb Bush, asking him to intervene. The governor said he wanted to help, but his hands were tied.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I don't have the power to overrule a court decision.

ZARRELLA: Six days later, he got it. In less than 24 hours, the Florida legislature wrote and passed a bill giving the governor authority to trump the court. Terri's Law, as it became known, allowed Bush to order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted, which he did. Michael Schiavo's lawyers challenged the constitutionality of Terri's Law. Did it violate her right to privacy, and the separation of powers between the branches of government? It took 10 months, but on August 31st, the Florida supreme court heard oral arguments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the governor's power to act and enter a stay came solely from the legislature.

ZARRELLA: The court's ruling comes nearly a decade and a half after Terri Schiavo's heart failed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZARRELLA: Now, the court's ruling, again, very narrow, just dealing with the separation of powers. The question, of course, now is what happens? Does Michael Schiavo immediately move to remove Terri Schiavo from life support? Are there other options that the Schindlers and the state of Florida can go with here?

And we have Kendall Coffey on the phone with us.

And, Kendall, in your expertise on this, and your background, your knowledge on this, can the family -- are there other options? can they go to the U.S. Supreme Court? Is that a possible avenue, or to the state for that matter -- Kendall?

KENDALL COFFEY, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's always possible after a skate supreme court has ruled for someone to file an emergency application to the United States Supreme Court and to ask that court to intervene, even if temporarily, to allow somebody to consider what, in effect, the family of the state of Florida would be requesting.

As we know, with, for example, request for stays of execution, that kind of process happens all the time. And sometimes it works. Sometimes you get that temporary postponement, which would keep the life support in place.

But here, I think it's going to be very, very tough, if for no other reason, John, this is a case, as you were pointing out, it's been going on for many years, and the amount of judicial consideration in an agonizing, heartbreaking, very emotional way has been extraordinary. I can't recall a case in Florida history where so many hours and so much detail has been spent by so many judges trying to do the right thing. And I think it is certainly a dramatic decision today, but in many ways, expected. Even some of the legislatures who voted for Terri's Law were confident that it was probably going to been constitutional, but because they have the legislature to say how a court is to decide a case would be extraordinary. It would underpin the most basic element of our systems of checks and balances.

ZARRELLA: I was going to ask you that, because it had come out certainly after the law, a lot of the legislators, as you mentioned, had come back and said, listen, we may have made a mistake here. This was not the right thing to do. And based on that fact, too, this was expected.

I don't think anybody, as you pointed out, expected the Florida supreme court to rule any other way, did they?

COFFEY: Well, it would have been very tough. And Think for a moment about the precedent that would create. Every time there's a child custody case decided that a legislator disagrees with, he's going to go to the legislature to ask them to overrule that? They think somebody is convicted wrongly, does the legislature get to intervene and tells the courts that, for example, they should wipe out the conviction of Martha Stewart? You can't have that. It is so fundamental to the fabric of our democracy.

So I think that as heartbreaking as this case is for so many, the result today was something that was expected, that was really a necessary result and for a lot of reasons, I think it makes it very tough for the U.S. Supreme Court, or any other authority, to intervene in something that's been looked at for this long, this painstakingly, this emotionally. I think that there's going to be a sense in the system that, rightly or wrongly, there has to be finality to the process at some point.

ZARRELLA: Kendall, thanks very much for joining us here.

Certainly expect that we will get some statements later today. Certainly by the state of Florida, certainly by the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo. We, of course, are working on all of that right now. But this just developing now. It will be interesting to see in the hours to come exactly, Fredricka, where all of this goes and how quickly Michael Schiavo moves to have his wife, who has been in a persistent vegetative state for well over a decade now removed from the feeding tube. And again, I expect that we will be in for some emotional times ahead in the days to come -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, John Zarrella, a lot of questions yet to be answered. Thanks so much, from Miami.

Coming up next, a reality check on what it's really like on the grounded in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Iraq's interim prime minister gives a hopeful assessment of the country's future, but it comes amid a chaotic week of pitched battles, kidnappings, and beheadings.

CNN analyst Ken Pollack is with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at The Brookings Institution. He joins us with some insight. Good to see you, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER: Good to see you, Fredricka. How are you?

WHITFIELD: All right.

Well, Ayad Allawi said today, and Democratic Presidential Challenger John Kerry actually challenged these comments just a short time ago, that the struggle of Iraq is about the worldwide war on terror. These words from Allawi. But we've heard from Iraqis who have been blaming the American occupation for the stepped up insurgency.

Who is really being believed among the Iraqi people here? Are people believing, you know, their neighbors who are saying this, or are they giving a lot of credit to Ayad Allawi's words?

POLLACK: I think for most Iraqis, they're honestly not terribly concerned about the global war on terrorism. The global war on terrorism is an issue for the United States and other countries.

They're really concerned about their own future. And what they want to see is greater security inside Iraq, greater economic prospects, and a stable political situation.

They've been fairly hopeful with Ayad Allawi's new government, and there have been a number of changes. You need to give Dr. Allawi credit. He's made some changes -- he, along with the new State Department team that have taken over -- that have been very helpful, have been progressive. They're hopefully moving Iraq in the right direction in terms of things like stepping back the massive insurgent raids that the United States Military was conducting, which would tend to be very counterproductive in terms of more joint patrols on the street, employment, opportunities, things like that. So, there have been some good steps.

By the same token, as you point out, Fredricka, there have been a lot of insurgent attacks. The number of insurgent attacks seems to be increasing; the deadliness, the sophistication seems to be increasing. So, there's still a long way to go. And I think Iraqis, while they're hopeful that Dr. Allawi is going to make a difference, they're still waiting to see if he can.

WHITFIELD: In fact, some of the examples of progress that Allawi described, he said, more schools are open, there's a Polio vaccination program, but certainly these things don't sound like it's enough for the Iraqi citizen who is ducking and dodging bullets constantly.

POLLACK: Right, and that's certainly the case. These are steps in the right direction. And I think that's why you're seeing Iraqis hopeful that Dr. Allawi's government is going to take them to where they want to go, but still not certain that he will.

These are good steps, but they are not anywhere near what is necessary to actually deal with these massive problems besetting the Iraqi population. The fact that the security situation is still completely unstable, the fact that you don't have a clearly defined political process, and the fact that Iraq's economy is still absolutely moribund.

These are good steps, but they are still a long way from getting there. So, it makes the Iraqi people hopeful, but still waiting to see whether it's actually going to work.

WHITFIELD: And as you mentioned, security a major obstacle. And it will continue, it seems, to be a major obstacle as we encroach upon the January Election Day. Allawi says these elections will take place, period, no matter what.

But among the Iraqi people, will people feel confident enough, safe enough, to actually head to some of the polling stations -- some 30,000 polling stations that Allawi said would exist?

POLLACK: Yes, I mean, this is a big issue out there, Fredricka. Brave words from Ayad Allawi. It's important that he said it. He needs to say that the elections will definitely take place.

But in all honesty, in today's security environment, it would not be possible to have elections. And I think that there is still a very big question mark as to whether the security situation can improve enough by the end of January so that they can take place. And if they can't take place, then what are we going to do in the interim? What does that mean for the Iraqi peoples' sentiments about the future? What does that mean for the insurgency?

These are huge unanswered questions. Dr. Allawi gave the right answer, but now we need to see it all manifested on the ground.

WHITFIELD: Ken Pollack, thanks so much.

POLLACK: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well, despite the dangers and difficulties they still face, some U.S. troops say conditions are improving in parts of Iraq. CNN's Jane Arraf has the view from soldiers on patrol in Saddam Hussein's hometown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SGT. DAVID PARKER, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: How are you doing?

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a different view at ground level. American soldiers actually fighting the war in Iraq aren't paying much attention to the debate raging over it.

PARKER: We came here to do a job, and like I said, the job we're doing is pretty much good.

ARRAF: Sergeant Parker's job is a lot more than getting shot at or shooting people.

PARKER: I got to take a picture of the...

ARRAF: Most aren't paying much attention to politics either.

SPC. JEREMY RICE, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: It's a good neighborhood?

ARRAF: Specialist Jeremy Rice from Ohio is turning 21 this week. It's the first time he'll be able to vote, but he doesn't plan to.

RICE: That's a tough choice right there. I haven't really been able to follow the news at all, so I don't know which way to go.

ARRAF: As for the news from Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, on most days, there's either none filtering to the outside world or, like today, bad news, that a U.S. soldier has been killed near Tikrit.

But just a few miles away, it's as if it never happened. Soldiers say the streets they're patrolling are safer and more prosperous than they've been.

Here in Saddam Hussein's hometown, the first infantry division spends a lot of time getting to know the people whose city they're living in.

First Battalion 18th Infantry Company Commander Aaron Coombs stops to talk to a carpet dealer to get his view on life here. He tells the captain that what they need are jobs. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have money so people can work and get money. Life can be better.

ARRAF: It's still dangerous.

CAPT. AARON COOMBS, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: It's not a daily gun fight here in Tikrit anyway, but it does happen. It's still a very lethal place.

ARRAF: Two weeks ago, the company medic was killed near here. But with so much else going on, the steady drip of death doesn't seem to overshadow the progress they believe they've helped make.

COOMBS: I think if you talk to a lot of people, even here in Tikrit, somebody who is honest with himself will tell you that things are better now, all their problems that were a year ago.

ARRAF: Most of these soldiers say that makes it worth it.

Jane Arraf, CNN, Tikrit.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, the folks who gave your kids a whole new take on arithmetic are back. Math curse was just the beginning. Up next, meet the creators of the new book, "Science Verse."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, for some kids , there's a natural curiosity. For others, you've got to make amoebas and photosynthesis fun to get the point across. A new children's book presents science in rhyme, not just any rhyme, but parodies of famous poets. Jon Scieszka is the author of "Science Verse," a companion to his 1995 book, "Math Curse." Lane Smith did all the illustrations, and they join us in New York this morning.

Good to see both of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, good to see you.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, your objective is to really make learning fun, and some have even said that you all have helped change the face of children's literature just by virtue of your books. Is that what you set out to do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we were the ones that said that.

WHITFIELD: Oh, well, there you go. Elaborate then.

JON SCIESZKA, AUTHOR, "SCIENCE VERSE": That's why it sounded familiar. No, actually I think we set out just to entertain kids. I had been an elementary school teacher for 10 years. So I just kind of naturally took to teaching kids with books. WHITFIELD: And so the concept -- and you're in agreement on that, so the concept is...

LANE SMITH, ILLUSTRATOR, "SCIENCE VERSE": I was in elementary school for 10 years, so it all works out -- as a student.

WHITFIELD: So you've had a lot of practice.

Now, you all use fairy tales and nursery rhymes, you know, as a springboard to tell some of your stories, or riddles or get some of your points across. How do you do that without distorting some of the original messages, or do you distort some of the messages?

SMITH: We're all for distorting the original messages.

SCIESZKA: Yes, I think that's kind of the actual message we give to kids, that it's OK to take stuff and play around with it. So things like fairy tales you can goof around with and turn into stinky cheese stories.

WHITFIELD: And, Lane, you know, the illustrations are quite sophisticated. And kids these days have become quite picky about how a book looks before they even want to pick it up and read it. So what was your real objective, to try to make it, you know, as visually interesting and intriguing enough for these kids?

LANE: Well, John and I, I think were weaned on "Mad" magazine and all the great illustrations, '60s cartoons of the past, so I that influence is just in my brain, and we never tried to speak down to kids. We just tried to have as much fun with it as possible. I don't think there's any conscious maneuvering going on.

Also, also my wife, Mollie Leach (ph), is the designer, and her background was in magazines. She used to work for "Business Week" and a lot of places like that. So she has somewhat of a sophisticated sense, but it's still very friendly when she puts all the design and everything together.

WHITFIELD: And, Lane, I know you're poking fun, the whole elementary school for 10 years type of thing, but you all really do credit a lot of, I guess comical or humorous memories from your childhood. Was it you who had a -- I guess your dad's brothers were Tom and Jerry? And you know, and then there's -- is there a Cub and a Dub that's also family members?

SMITH: Cubby, Dub. Dub is short for Delmer (ph). Billy Joe, yes, Millie and Corky, those are my parents. But are those funny names? That's Oklahoma.

SCIESZKA: Lane's got a wealth of material to draw from.

WHITFIELD: All right, so you guys have, you know, used some of the sense of exploring and curiosities from your childhood, and now translated it into something very modern for kids to enjoy today. Thanks so much, Jon Scieszka and Lane Smith, joining us. "Science Verse" is the new book. It also has an audio tape, or a CD along with it. So folks can hear and play, too, right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks a lot, guys.

SCIESZKA: Thanks.

SMITH: Thanks.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

WHITFIELD: Well, I'm Fredricka Whitfield, thanks for joining me the last couple of hours. Wolf Blitzer is coming up next as we continue our coverage of President Bush's meeting with Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. Their joint news conference takes place in just a few minutes, at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired September 23, 2004 - 11:29   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this just in. A Florida Supreme Court ruling in the Terri Schiavo case. She's the woman who is brain damaged and has been on a feeding tube.
Let's go to our John Zarrella in Miami with more on this -- John.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a pretty emotional case here in the state of Florida. As many people remember, it captivated the -- the imagination and captivated everyone from -- from coast to coast here.

The Florida Supreme Court ruling just a few minutes ago -- and I'm going to read it exactly what they say -- that "The Terri Schiavo law, the underlying procedural history of this case concludes that the law violates the fundamental constitutional of separation of powers and is thereby unconstitutional both on its face and as it applied to Theresa Schiavo."

As many people remember, what happened was that a lower court had ruled that the feeding tube could be removed, Terri Schiavo's feeding tube could be removed. The family then went to Governor Bush, asking, appealing to the governor. The state legislature then passed, what became known as Terri's law, which allowed the governor to basically circumvent the court. So the governor was able then to get this law, which allowed him to have the feeding tube re-inserted.

What it says in its conclusion, the court says, "The continuing vitality of our system of separation of powers precludes the other two branches from nullifying the judicial branch's final orders."

Bottom line, the judicial branch had made a ruling, and then the state legislature went and passed a law which circumvented what the courts had done. So thus, the violation of the separation of powers. Now, this Terri Schiavo case, it has been tremendously emotional for both the family and her husband, who has wanted her removed from the feeding tube and it has been going on now for more than 12 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZARRELLA (voice-over): Terri Schiavo was 26 years old when her life and the lives of those who loved her changed forever. Heart failure stopped the flow of oxygen and left her severely brain damaged.

For the next 14 years, her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, believing their daughter could be rehabilitated with therapy, fought to have her kept alive on life support.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have always thought there was hope. When I go in there and she responds to me, she knows I'm there.

ZARRELLA: But Terri's husband, Michael, saw it differently. Although Terri did not leave written instructions, Michael Schiavo insisted his wife made it clear she would never want to live on life support.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn't want to be kept alive on anything artificial. She didn't want any tubes. She didn't want to be a burden to people. She's made the comment to me; she made the comments to other people also.

ZARRELLA: The battle over what was best for Terri went to state and federal court and through the appeals process. In nearly every instance, the courts sided with her husband. In the eyes of the Florida circuit court, Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. The court ruled there was no evidence that therapy would lead to any form of recovery.

On Wednesday, October 15th, Terri's feeding tube was removed. Outside the hospice, people who believed that rehabilitation should be give be a chance prayed.

UNIDENTIFIED: We pray to the divine intercelestial (ph) mighty God.

ZARRELLA: The family, out of legal options, met with Governor Jeb Bush, asking him to intervene. The governor said he wanted to help, but his hands were tied.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I don't have the power to overrule a court decision.

ZARRELLA: Six days later, he got it. In less than 24 hours, the Florida legislature wrote and passed a bill giving the governor authority to trump the court. Terri's Law, as it became known, allowed Bush to order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted, which he did. Michael Schiavo's lawyers challenged the constitutionality of Terri's Law. Did it violate her right to privacy, and the separation of powers between the branches of government? It took 10 months, but on August 31st, the Florida supreme court heard oral arguments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the governor's power to act and enter a stay came solely from the legislature.

ZARRELLA: The court's ruling comes nearly a decade and a half after Terri Schiavo's heart failed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZARRELLA: Now, the court's ruling, again, very narrow, just dealing with the separation of powers. The question, of course, now is what happens? Does Michael Schiavo immediately move to remove Terri Schiavo from life support? Are there other options that the Schindlers and the state of Florida can go with here?

And we have Kendall Coffey on the phone with us.

And, Kendall, in your expertise on this, and your background, your knowledge on this, can the family -- are there other options? can they go to the U.S. Supreme Court? Is that a possible avenue, or to the state for that matter -- Kendall?

KENDALL COFFEY, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's always possible after a skate supreme court has ruled for someone to file an emergency application to the United States Supreme Court and to ask that court to intervene, even if temporarily, to allow somebody to consider what, in effect, the family of the state of Florida would be requesting.

As we know, with, for example, request for stays of execution, that kind of process happens all the time. And sometimes it works. Sometimes you get that temporary postponement, which would keep the life support in place.

But here, I think it's going to be very, very tough, if for no other reason, John, this is a case, as you were pointing out, it's been going on for many years, and the amount of judicial consideration in an agonizing, heartbreaking, very emotional way has been extraordinary. I can't recall a case in Florida history where so many hours and so much detail has been spent by so many judges trying to do the right thing. And I think it is certainly a dramatic decision today, but in many ways, expected. Even some of the legislatures who voted for Terri's Law were confident that it was probably going to been constitutional, but because they have the legislature to say how a court is to decide a case would be extraordinary. It would underpin the most basic element of our systems of checks and balances.

ZARRELLA: I was going to ask you that, because it had come out certainly after the law, a lot of the legislators, as you mentioned, had come back and said, listen, we may have made a mistake here. This was not the right thing to do. And based on that fact, too, this was expected.

I don't think anybody, as you pointed out, expected the Florida supreme court to rule any other way, did they?

COFFEY: Well, it would have been very tough. And Think for a moment about the precedent that would create. Every time there's a child custody case decided that a legislator disagrees with, he's going to go to the legislature to ask them to overrule that? They think somebody is convicted wrongly, does the legislature get to intervene and tells the courts that, for example, they should wipe out the conviction of Martha Stewart? You can't have that. It is so fundamental to the fabric of our democracy.

So I think that as heartbreaking as this case is for so many, the result today was something that was expected, that was really a necessary result and for a lot of reasons, I think it makes it very tough for the U.S. Supreme Court, or any other authority, to intervene in something that's been looked at for this long, this painstakingly, this emotionally. I think that there's going to be a sense in the system that, rightly or wrongly, there has to be finality to the process at some point.

ZARRELLA: Kendall, thanks very much for joining us here.

Certainly expect that we will get some statements later today. Certainly by the state of Florida, certainly by the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo. We, of course, are working on all of that right now. But this just developing now. It will be interesting to see in the hours to come exactly, Fredricka, where all of this goes and how quickly Michael Schiavo moves to have his wife, who has been in a persistent vegetative state for well over a decade now removed from the feeding tube. And again, I expect that we will be in for some emotional times ahead in the days to come -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, John Zarrella, a lot of questions yet to be answered. Thanks so much, from Miami.

Coming up next, a reality check on what it's really like on the grounded in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Iraq's interim prime minister gives a hopeful assessment of the country's future, but it comes amid a chaotic week of pitched battles, kidnappings, and beheadings.

CNN analyst Ken Pollack is with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at The Brookings Institution. He joins us with some insight. Good to see you, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER: Good to see you, Fredricka. How are you?

WHITFIELD: All right.

Well, Ayad Allawi said today, and Democratic Presidential Challenger John Kerry actually challenged these comments just a short time ago, that the struggle of Iraq is about the worldwide war on terror. These words from Allawi. But we've heard from Iraqis who have been blaming the American occupation for the stepped up insurgency.

Who is really being believed among the Iraqi people here? Are people believing, you know, their neighbors who are saying this, or are they giving a lot of credit to Ayad Allawi's words?

POLLACK: I think for most Iraqis, they're honestly not terribly concerned about the global war on terrorism. The global war on terrorism is an issue for the United States and other countries.

They're really concerned about their own future. And what they want to see is greater security inside Iraq, greater economic prospects, and a stable political situation.

They've been fairly hopeful with Ayad Allawi's new government, and there have been a number of changes. You need to give Dr. Allawi credit. He's made some changes -- he, along with the new State Department team that have taken over -- that have been very helpful, have been progressive. They're hopefully moving Iraq in the right direction in terms of things like stepping back the massive insurgent raids that the United States Military was conducting, which would tend to be very counterproductive in terms of more joint patrols on the street, employment, opportunities, things like that. So, there have been some good steps.

By the same token, as you point out, Fredricka, there have been a lot of insurgent attacks. The number of insurgent attacks seems to be increasing; the deadliness, the sophistication seems to be increasing. So, there's still a long way to go. And I think Iraqis, while they're hopeful that Dr. Allawi is going to make a difference, they're still waiting to see if he can.

WHITFIELD: In fact, some of the examples of progress that Allawi described, he said, more schools are open, there's a Polio vaccination program, but certainly these things don't sound like it's enough for the Iraqi citizen who is ducking and dodging bullets constantly.

POLLACK: Right, and that's certainly the case. These are steps in the right direction. And I think that's why you're seeing Iraqis hopeful that Dr. Allawi's government is going to take them to where they want to go, but still not certain that he will.

These are good steps, but they are not anywhere near what is necessary to actually deal with these massive problems besetting the Iraqi population. The fact that the security situation is still completely unstable, the fact that you don't have a clearly defined political process, and the fact that Iraq's economy is still absolutely moribund.

These are good steps, but they are still a long way from getting there. So, it makes the Iraqi people hopeful, but still waiting to see whether it's actually going to work.

WHITFIELD: And as you mentioned, security a major obstacle. And it will continue, it seems, to be a major obstacle as we encroach upon the January Election Day. Allawi says these elections will take place, period, no matter what.

But among the Iraqi people, will people feel confident enough, safe enough, to actually head to some of the polling stations -- some 30,000 polling stations that Allawi said would exist?

POLLACK: Yes, I mean, this is a big issue out there, Fredricka. Brave words from Ayad Allawi. It's important that he said it. He needs to say that the elections will definitely take place.

But in all honesty, in today's security environment, it would not be possible to have elections. And I think that there is still a very big question mark as to whether the security situation can improve enough by the end of January so that they can take place. And if they can't take place, then what are we going to do in the interim? What does that mean for the Iraqi peoples' sentiments about the future? What does that mean for the insurgency?

These are huge unanswered questions. Dr. Allawi gave the right answer, but now we need to see it all manifested on the ground.

WHITFIELD: Ken Pollack, thanks so much.

POLLACK: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well, despite the dangers and difficulties they still face, some U.S. troops say conditions are improving in parts of Iraq. CNN's Jane Arraf has the view from soldiers on patrol in Saddam Hussein's hometown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SGT. DAVID PARKER, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: How are you doing?

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a different view at ground level. American soldiers actually fighting the war in Iraq aren't paying much attention to the debate raging over it.

PARKER: We came here to do a job, and like I said, the job we're doing is pretty much good.

ARRAF: Sergeant Parker's job is a lot more than getting shot at or shooting people.

PARKER: I got to take a picture of the...

ARRAF: Most aren't paying much attention to politics either.

SPC. JEREMY RICE, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: It's a good neighborhood?

ARRAF: Specialist Jeremy Rice from Ohio is turning 21 this week. It's the first time he'll be able to vote, but he doesn't plan to.

RICE: That's a tough choice right there. I haven't really been able to follow the news at all, so I don't know which way to go.

ARRAF: As for the news from Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, on most days, there's either none filtering to the outside world or, like today, bad news, that a U.S. soldier has been killed near Tikrit.

But just a few miles away, it's as if it never happened. Soldiers say the streets they're patrolling are safer and more prosperous than they've been.

Here in Saddam Hussein's hometown, the first infantry division spends a lot of time getting to know the people whose city they're living in.

First Battalion 18th Infantry Company Commander Aaron Coombs stops to talk to a carpet dealer to get his view on life here. He tells the captain that what they need are jobs. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have money so people can work and get money. Life can be better.

ARRAF: It's still dangerous.

CAPT. AARON COOMBS, U.S. ARMY 1ST INFANTRY DIV.: It's not a daily gun fight here in Tikrit anyway, but it does happen. It's still a very lethal place.

ARRAF: Two weeks ago, the company medic was killed near here. But with so much else going on, the steady drip of death doesn't seem to overshadow the progress they believe they've helped make.

COOMBS: I think if you talk to a lot of people, even here in Tikrit, somebody who is honest with himself will tell you that things are better now, all their problems that were a year ago.

ARRAF: Most of these soldiers say that makes it worth it.

Jane Arraf, CNN, Tikrit.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, the folks who gave your kids a whole new take on arithmetic are back. Math curse was just the beginning. Up next, meet the creators of the new book, "Science Verse."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, for some kids , there's a natural curiosity. For others, you've got to make amoebas and photosynthesis fun to get the point across. A new children's book presents science in rhyme, not just any rhyme, but parodies of famous poets. Jon Scieszka is the author of "Science Verse," a companion to his 1995 book, "Math Curse." Lane Smith did all the illustrations, and they join us in New York this morning.

Good to see both of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, good to see you.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, your objective is to really make learning fun, and some have even said that you all have helped change the face of children's literature just by virtue of your books. Is that what you set out to do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we were the ones that said that.

WHITFIELD: Oh, well, there you go. Elaborate then.

JON SCIESZKA, AUTHOR, "SCIENCE VERSE": That's why it sounded familiar. No, actually I think we set out just to entertain kids. I had been an elementary school teacher for 10 years. So I just kind of naturally took to teaching kids with books. WHITFIELD: And so the concept -- and you're in agreement on that, so the concept is...

LANE SMITH, ILLUSTRATOR, "SCIENCE VERSE": I was in elementary school for 10 years, so it all works out -- as a student.

WHITFIELD: So you've had a lot of practice.

Now, you all use fairy tales and nursery rhymes, you know, as a springboard to tell some of your stories, or riddles or get some of your points across. How do you do that without distorting some of the original messages, or do you distort some of the messages?

SMITH: We're all for distorting the original messages.

SCIESZKA: Yes, I think that's kind of the actual message we give to kids, that it's OK to take stuff and play around with it. So things like fairy tales you can goof around with and turn into stinky cheese stories.

WHITFIELD: And, Lane, you know, the illustrations are quite sophisticated. And kids these days have become quite picky about how a book looks before they even want to pick it up and read it. So what was your real objective, to try to make it, you know, as visually interesting and intriguing enough for these kids?

LANE: Well, John and I, I think were weaned on "Mad" magazine and all the great illustrations, '60s cartoons of the past, so I that influence is just in my brain, and we never tried to speak down to kids. We just tried to have as much fun with it as possible. I don't think there's any conscious maneuvering going on.

Also, also my wife, Mollie Leach (ph), is the designer, and her background was in magazines. She used to work for "Business Week" and a lot of places like that. So she has somewhat of a sophisticated sense, but it's still very friendly when she puts all the design and everything together.

WHITFIELD: And, Lane, I know you're poking fun, the whole elementary school for 10 years type of thing, but you all really do credit a lot of, I guess comical or humorous memories from your childhood. Was it you who had a -- I guess your dad's brothers were Tom and Jerry? And you know, and then there's -- is there a Cub and a Dub that's also family members?

SMITH: Cubby, Dub. Dub is short for Delmer (ph). Billy Joe, yes, Millie and Corky, those are my parents. But are those funny names? That's Oklahoma.

SCIESZKA: Lane's got a wealth of material to draw from.

WHITFIELD: All right, so you guys have, you know, used some of the sense of exploring and curiosities from your childhood, and now translated it into something very modern for kids to enjoy today. Thanks so much, Jon Scieszka and Lane Smith, joining us. "Science Verse" is the new book. It also has an audio tape, or a CD along with it. So folks can hear and play, too, right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks a lot, guys.

SCIESZKA: Thanks.

SMITH: Thanks.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

WHITFIELD: Well, I'm Fredricka Whitfield, thanks for joining me the last couple of hours. Wolf Blitzer is coming up next as we continue our coverage of President Bush's meeting with Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. Their joint news conference takes place in just a few minutes, at the top of the hour.

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