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Arafat's Body to be Taken to Airport, Then Flown to Cairo
Aired November 11, 2004 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Jim, are you there?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I am.
SANCHEZ: Jim Bittermann there on the scene.
BITTERMANN: (INAUDIBLE) because I'm right next to the band.
SANCHEZ: I can imagine that it might...
BITTERMANN: So it's a little difficult for me to hear you.
SANCHEZ: You can't see it, but we can on our monitor. We're seeing for the very first glimpse of what is that helicopter that's going to be bringing the body of Yasser Arafat over to the location where you are. So that should be just moments away.
Jim, what I was trying to ask you was, do you ever recall a country having a ceremony like this after someone has come to their country, perhaps deceased. How normal is it for the French to do this, this little state ceremony? Or are they trying to make a statement of some kind?
BITTERMANN: Rick, I'm sorry, I missed that question. I'm just so close to the band I can't make out what you're saying.
SANCHEZ: We were certainly valiant in the attempt of trying to get that to you. Thanks so much, Jim. We'll come back to you in just a little bit.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, we'll be going back to Jim Bittermann in Paris.
Meanwhile, I want to bring in Dr. Ken Stein from Emory University, longtime observer of the Middle East peace process who understands the players here and what might be next.
Good morning.
KENNETH W. STEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the next step. We've seen some temporary leadership installed with the Palestinian leadership. But really, who do you expect to emerge, and will this be an opportunity for Mideast peace?
STEIN: Well, I don't know about Mideast peace. I know there's an opportunity for two things to happen. One for Palestinians to show a succession, a reasonably good smooth succession to the next series of leaders.
And then the second question is the succession of ideas. Arafat dies in the middle of leading a liberation movement where on the one hand he used diplomacy; on the other hand he used armed struggle terrorism. So we do know that it's Abu Ala, we do know it's Ahmed Qorei, we do know who the individuals are who will take control of the Palestinian institutions. What we don't know, is what direction those individuals will be able to take, the Palestinian Arab national movement, in the next two or three months or in the next two or three years. And that really is the succession question that many people should be asking, not just who does it, but what will be done with the Palestinians in the near and distant future.
KAGAN: What about, Ken, all this missing money? These bank accounts that earlier in the week appeared to be a big dispute between Suha Arafat, his wife, and the Palestinian leadership. I mean, it would appear that these millions or billions of dollars Yasser Arafat goes to his grave as the only one who really knows where all that money is.
STEIN: Well, actually, much of the money has been monitored by a financial adviser. People do know where a lot of the money is. And I think it's really a sideshow for the direction of these two Arab leaders, Palestinian leaders, who want to take control over the movement. I think it's a deflection and distraction from what the Palestinians really want now, and that is what kind of state do they want? When do they want it? And will they be able to reach an agreement and understanding with Israel?
SANCHEZ: Did Yasser Arafat truly blow the opportunity to be a -- not only a historic figure, but a successful historic figure in not accepting the accord in 2000 when President Clinton and Ehud Barak sat down and seemed to offer him the best that Israel could offer at the time, and certainly the best that they've offered to date, professor?
STEIN: That's a great question. The question really boils down, is how do you define success? Success for whom? if it's for success in terms of a negotiated agreement where Israel and the Palestinians would agree on settlements in Jerusalem, and refugees and the prerogatives of the Palestinian state, then no, Arafat did not sign that agreement. If he defines success as Arafat saying, I'm going to hold out for what I consider to be my absolute need, namely total Israeli withdrawal from all the territories, a stopping and withdrawing of all the settlements, then Arafat was successful. But we have a tendency sometimes in the United States...
SANCHEZ: But what did that get him? But professor, what did that get him? He held out, waited, and we're no better off now. In fact, most would argue we're much worse off now than we were prior to 2000 or around the year 2000.
STEIN: But for Arafat, he maintained control over the national movement. And for him, that was very important. In terms of did it bring economic success or advancement to the Palestinian people? No. Did it cause 3,000 people to die? Sure it did.
But Arafat retained his commitment throughout his entire life not to concede to Israel, not to concede to Zionism. And in that sense, he was successful. Of course he didn't bring about a negotiated settlement. He frustrated the Clinton administration, and then he frustrated the Bush administration as well.
So an opportunity does appear now that we could see a reopening of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The question is, how and when? And the biggest mistake I think we should make -- we would make in America, is if we jumped in too soon to try and push negotiations before the Palestinians decided who their leaders were and what the direction would be.
KAGAN: All right, Ken, we're going to have you stand by as we're watching these live pictures at Villa Cu Lake (ph), the airport there in France, just outside Paris. That helicopter has landed, and it holds the body and coffin of Yasser Arafat.
Our Jim Bittermann standing by at that airport with more on that -- Jim.
SANCHEZ: Jim Bittermann, can you hear us?
BITTERMANN: OK. Yes, I hear you fine Rick and Daryn.
In fact, the helicopter has just arrived here. I think you can probably see it there. The engine's winding down. That's the helicopter with the coffin on it.
Now we have in the crowd here a great number of French dignitaries. I see the foreign minister, the speaker of the national assembly, the prime minister is here, Nabil Shaath is here from Palestinian Authority, Nala Shaheed (ph), who is the Palestinian representative in France, as well as a number of Islamic leaders. I see the head of the Grand Mosque (ph) of Paris is here, Mr. Mubakar (ph), just a number of French dignitaries, friends.
Now coming out of the helicopter first, I think is from this distance, it looks like Suha Arafat coming out. We know that traveling with Arafat is Arafat's body is, as well, his nephew, the United Nations ambassador, who is going to be traveling back to Cairo here.
And now an honor guard is going to go to the helicopter, and bring out the coffin. The coffin will be placed in the front of the dignitaries that are gathered here, and then like I say, like I mentioned before, there may or may not be a brief remark here from the prime minister, but we're not positive he's going to say anything. It may just be simply a ceremony, military ceremony.
KAGAN: Daryn Kagan, along with Rick Sanchez here. I want to welcome our viewers that are joining us on CNN's International, watching the ceremony around the world.
Jim, a question we were trying to ask you earlier when the band was playing in your ear -- this ceremony, how typical, and what does it represent what the French are trying to say about Yasser Arafat and his passing?
BITTERMANN: Well, I think, Daryn, they really want to honor Arafat. They want to show that, as far as they were concerned, he was an effective partner in the Middle East. I think they showed that a couple of times along the line in recent years, including the visits that were paid by the foreign minister to his compound in Ramallah, but also the medical care that they gave him in Paris, and this is, I think a last sendoff.
One of the people I see in the crowd is the former foreign minister Roland Dumas (ph). You probably can't pick him out on the screen, but in fact he was instrumental during the Mitterrand era here. He was longtime foreign minister under Mitterrand. And a number of the people that are here to honor Arafat are people who dealt with him directly, and along the way at various stages tried with Arafat to manufacture some kind of a peace in the Middle East, and of course never being successful.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Jim, I'm wondering about the process of this particular ceremony. I understand it's going to be a very brief ceremony, is that right?
BITTERMANN: Well, this is something that they kind of, I think, put together at the last minute. I'm not sure that there was any sort of format for this. They -- I think that they recognized the fact that a number of people who knew Arafat were living in Paris, and that they would want to, in some way, honor his departure.
SANCHEZ: And there we see for the first time the pallbearers with the casket, the body of Yasser Arafat. Boy, this has been quite a process over the last week. Still, to this very moment, we don't know exactly what Mr. Arafat died of. There have been several reports, way too many to specific rate, obviously. Obviously, we know it had something to do with some type of blood disorder. But beyond that, we haven't been able to report. He's been there for the better part of the last week or so, and it was just late last night, Eastern Time here in the United States, that we learned around 11:00 p.m. that Mr. Arafat had indeed passed away.
KAGAN: They had been more forthcoming in what he didn't have, were very adamant coming out and saying he didn't have cancer, he didn't have this, he didn't have that. Clearly he was an older man, 75-years-old. Had not been well, suffering from Parkinson's disease.
We will talk more about what's going to happen with this funeral procession in a moment. Right now, we're going to listen.
SANCHEZ: You're watching a ceremony that's taking place right now at Villacorbay Air Base in Paris. It's about five minutes as the crow flies -- or in this case, the helicopter flies. They just recently brought the body of Yasser Arafat to this particular venue. And we have assembled a team of people that we can talk to about this particular ceremony and what we'll be seeing over the next two days. It will go from Cairo, where they'll have a military funeral, then finally to the burial of Yasser Arafat there in Ramallah. He had wanted to be buried in East Jerusalem, of course, but the Israelis said they will not allow that.
KAGAN: And you've heard some Palestinian leaders like Saeb Erakat come out and say well this is just a temporary resting place in Ramallah, that the shrines they're making for him there is going to actually be movable, because they believe one day they will have part of East Jerusalem as part of a Palestinian state. And they would intend to move the remains of Yasser Arafat and the shrine to that part of the city.
SANCHEZ: Let's bring in Professor Ken Stein. He's a professor at Emory university. He took part in the accord in 1993 with Yitzhak Rabin. He was also -- in some part, I imagine -- associated with what happened with the 1993 -- your were at the Camp David's, and you were also in '93 with Yitzhak Rabin. Is that correct?
STEIN: Well, I was -- I attended the White House ceremony, and I saw Arafat the night before the ceremony was signed.
SANCHEZ: Let me read you something Tom Friedman over at "The New York Times" wrote recently.
"Two generations of Palestinians remained in their poverty and displacement because he, Yasser Arafat, never had the courage to tell them the truth -- that Palestine will have to be divided with the Jews forever, that we must make a final deal that we can have over the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem."
That's what Friedman says that -- writes that Yasser Arafat should have done to prepare his people for an eventual two-state solution. Is he right?
STEIN: I don't think public diplomacy has ever been a big suit for either the Americans, the Israelis, or the Palestinians when it came to negotiations. The Egyptians and the Americans didn't do it in the '70s. Didn't change Egyptian atmosphere when they called Begin a Nazi.
I think one of the things that you need in a negotiated settlement between Arabs and Israelis is a realization it's not just what you sign on the contract, what you sign on the dotted line, but it's what changes in people's heads and hearts over time.
And that can only be done if leaders speak out and speak out against violence, speak out against hatred, speak out against distrust. And I think that has to come from all sides.
To be sure, Arafat never did that. Because Arafat, at one and the same time, wanted to be a negotiator and he also wanted to be the leader of the armed struggle. And he couldn't go all the way to one side without sacrificing one or the other.
So, in that sense, Friedman is right. Arafat did not provide the economic well-being for the Palestinian people as someone might have hoped and wished. But what Arafat did do, he kept the dream alive.
Now that he is passing, that blockage in the artery of what the Palestinians want, will his ideology continue into the next generation? And from what we understand about public opinion in the West Bank is there seems to be a greater desire to reach an accommodation to separate Palestinians and Israelis west of the Jordan River into two states, and that's a real possibility. It's a real likelihood.
The biggest problem we've had for years is that the leadership of the Palestinian national movement has been controlled by a few people at the top without giving a chance to the people at the bottom to really express themselves. When I monitored the Palestinian elections in January of 1996 in Ramallah, you could see that the Palestinians had a deep passion for civil society, for expressing themselves democratically.
They didn't want a security organ, whether it was Arafat's or the Israelis' with a boot on their back or on their neck. From the public research that we see now, public opinion research, there seems to be an indication that the Palestinians want to have a say about their future.
And what I find enormously significant is that when you take a look at the Palestinian draft constitution, they want to put the authority in an independent judiciary and an independent parliament. This was a draft constitution that was written in May 2003.
SANCHEZ: What does that mean in layman's terms?
STEIN: But what they don't want to do is they don't want to put authority into the hands of an autocratic president. You take a look at the powers of the president that they have outlined -- it is rather limited. They want to put the power into the hands of the individuals and into the hands of a parliament. And that is significant. That may be Arafat's greatest legacy to the Palestinian people.
KAGAN: All right. Professor Stein, we'll be back with you in just a moment. We want to go to the State Department. Our Andrea Koppel standing by.
Andrea, if you could talk about how the Bush administration sees this as an opportunity, perhaps, for opening perhaps peace talks with too grand of a goal, at this point, but what kind of opportunity the Bush administration sees at this point with the passing of Yasser Arafat.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly because President Bush had made very clear for the last two- and-a-half years, Daryn, that Yasser Arafat in the U.S. view was the chief obstacle to peace and that he had to step aside and a new Palestinian leadership should emerge, his passing certainly would then remove that obstacle from the U.S. perspective, and there would be no more excuses, so to speak.
And really, just looking at these pictures right now, I'm struck by the difference in symbolism that really represents just the stark differences between the way that many European countries, many Arab countries have treated the Palestinians -- and Yasser Arafat, specifically -- in recent years, and the way that the Bush administration has.
What the U.S. has done since Yasser Arafat passed away has really checked the box. They've done the very minimum that you can do to pay your respects. What you're seeing the French do there is really the bells and whistles and pulling out all the stops for Yasser Arafat, as Jim Bittermann noted, on very short notice.
What we're going to look at in the days to come are the following. And what we really need to look for is not just the symbolism of how does the U.S. honor Yasser Arafat's memory, but more so, what is the U.S. going to do, what is the Bush administration going to do substantively to engage the Palestinian leadership, at least for the next 60 days? We know there are going to be elections, or there are supposed to be elections in 60 days.
Is the U.S. going to do what the Palestinians are now asking? You heard one of the chief negotiators say today, "Please help us with these elections." Will the Bush administration get engaged on that front? Will they use their clout with Israel to put forward confidence-building measures, like lifting obstacles, getting money out that they've been holding of the Palestinians, and releasing Palestinian prisoners -- the things that can empower the new Palestinian leadership, Daryn.
SANCHEZ: Important distinction made by Andrea Koppel.
Let's take you now to the very place where the people living day- to-day are affected by this and are watching it, one would imagine, very carefully. Guy Raz is joining us now from Jerusalem with reaction from there. Guy, over to you.
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rick, you could describe the reaction here in Israel as somewhat subdued. Perhaps a combination of ambivalence, caution, and even, to some extent, optimism.
Now to give a bit of a window into what we might expect in the coming weeks and months from the Israeli government, the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, just a short time ago giving a speech, where he told an audience that he hopes the Israeli government will be able to start negotiations with the new Palestinian leadership. But at the same time, he said, quote, as long as no real steps are taken in what he described as the war on terror, there will be no change in Israeli policy.
Now, to some extent, and to many observers of this conflict over the past four years, it's really in some ways become personified by the two figures, Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon. In a sense, it ceased to be about Israelis and Palestinians, but about these two leaders.
And essentially, Israel has isolated Yasser Arafat for the past four years, declaring him irrelevant and declaring him as not a credible partner for negotiating peace, a position which we just heard from Andrea Koppel that the Bush administration has also adopted.
Now, of course, with Yasser Arafat's passing, some Israeli analysts are essentially saying well, the alibi, if you will, or Israel's platform on Yasser Arafat is essentially evaporated. And at this point, the Israeli government will be forced to reassess its stance, its position on negotiating peace with the Palestinians -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: I'm curious, Guy, just quickly, the average Israeli on the street, if you were to ask him right now, as he's watching this process on television there on channel 2 in Israel, if they're indeed broadcasting it, what's his reaction? Is it one of relief or one of revulsion?
RAZ: I think a combination of the two to be quite honest, Rick. At times, Yasser Arafat was respected by many Israelis. At times, he was reviled. And I certainly think in the past four years there's been a sense among Israelis that Yasser Arafat didn't really deliver the goods, if you will. He wasn't, from the Israeli perspective, as far as their narrative is concerned, he wasn't willing to end the armed struggle against Israel, if you will, and bring about a peaceful resolution to the conflict here -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Guy Raz, following the situation for us there in Israel. We certainly appreciate that reaction and insight.
KAGAN: So we go from that ceremony, taking place in Paris, France for Yasser Arafat, to a very different ceremony that will be taking place in the U.S.. It is Veteran's Day.
SANCHEZ: We see Paul Wolfowitz and Secretary of State Colin Powell.
KAGAN: And President Bush, if he's not already there, will be arriving to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns.
SANCHEZ: And we'll have it for you. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We're looking at live pictures from Arlington National Cemetery.
SANCHEZ: Karl Rove.
KAGAN: There's arriving there. The man that a lot of people credit helping President Bush win re-election, standing next to Paul Wolfowitz and to Secretary of State Colin Powell. Any minute, we expect President George Bush to arrive and lay a tomb -- lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown.
SANCHEZ: Yes, members of his cabinet have gathered there. Some there you can see behind, Secretary Mineta and others that we have seen, will be waiting for the president and Mrs. Bush. They depart the White House and will arrive there at Arlington National Cemetery, where both will lay the wreath, and then they're scheduled to give some remarks a little bit later. It's scheduled for 11:10. And as you probably have come to know, the White House is usually very punctual at events like this. It's a very important day there at National Arlington cemetery.
KAGAN: And meanwhile, while we wait for the president, let's bring in our Jason Carroll, who is live now in New Jersey -- Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, as you know, obviously it is Veteran's Day, a very emotional day here at Ft. Dix for the men and women who are out here. Just about 20 minutes ago, Daryn the field behind me cleared out as the men and women who are members of the 150th Aviation Battalion headed off to the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day that you signed up to put on this uniform you became a veteran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: And President Bush arriving now at Arlington National Cemetery to conduct this ceremony. Let's listen in.
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Aired November 11, 2004 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Jim, are you there?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I am.
SANCHEZ: Jim Bittermann there on the scene.
BITTERMANN: (INAUDIBLE) because I'm right next to the band.
SANCHEZ: I can imagine that it might...
BITTERMANN: So it's a little difficult for me to hear you.
SANCHEZ: You can't see it, but we can on our monitor. We're seeing for the very first glimpse of what is that helicopter that's going to be bringing the body of Yasser Arafat over to the location where you are. So that should be just moments away.
Jim, what I was trying to ask you was, do you ever recall a country having a ceremony like this after someone has come to their country, perhaps deceased. How normal is it for the French to do this, this little state ceremony? Or are they trying to make a statement of some kind?
BITTERMANN: Rick, I'm sorry, I missed that question. I'm just so close to the band I can't make out what you're saying.
SANCHEZ: We were certainly valiant in the attempt of trying to get that to you. Thanks so much, Jim. We'll come back to you in just a little bit.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, we'll be going back to Jim Bittermann in Paris.
Meanwhile, I want to bring in Dr. Ken Stein from Emory University, longtime observer of the Middle East peace process who understands the players here and what might be next.
Good morning.
KENNETH W. STEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the next step. We've seen some temporary leadership installed with the Palestinian leadership. But really, who do you expect to emerge, and will this be an opportunity for Mideast peace?
STEIN: Well, I don't know about Mideast peace. I know there's an opportunity for two things to happen. One for Palestinians to show a succession, a reasonably good smooth succession to the next series of leaders.
And then the second question is the succession of ideas. Arafat dies in the middle of leading a liberation movement where on the one hand he used diplomacy; on the other hand he used armed struggle terrorism. So we do know that it's Abu Ala, we do know it's Ahmed Qorei, we do know who the individuals are who will take control of the Palestinian institutions. What we don't know, is what direction those individuals will be able to take, the Palestinian Arab national movement, in the next two or three months or in the next two or three years. And that really is the succession question that many people should be asking, not just who does it, but what will be done with the Palestinians in the near and distant future.
KAGAN: What about, Ken, all this missing money? These bank accounts that earlier in the week appeared to be a big dispute between Suha Arafat, his wife, and the Palestinian leadership. I mean, it would appear that these millions or billions of dollars Yasser Arafat goes to his grave as the only one who really knows where all that money is.
STEIN: Well, actually, much of the money has been monitored by a financial adviser. People do know where a lot of the money is. And I think it's really a sideshow for the direction of these two Arab leaders, Palestinian leaders, who want to take control over the movement. I think it's a deflection and distraction from what the Palestinians really want now, and that is what kind of state do they want? When do they want it? And will they be able to reach an agreement and understanding with Israel?
SANCHEZ: Did Yasser Arafat truly blow the opportunity to be a -- not only a historic figure, but a successful historic figure in not accepting the accord in 2000 when President Clinton and Ehud Barak sat down and seemed to offer him the best that Israel could offer at the time, and certainly the best that they've offered to date, professor?
STEIN: That's a great question. The question really boils down, is how do you define success? Success for whom? if it's for success in terms of a negotiated agreement where Israel and the Palestinians would agree on settlements in Jerusalem, and refugees and the prerogatives of the Palestinian state, then no, Arafat did not sign that agreement. If he defines success as Arafat saying, I'm going to hold out for what I consider to be my absolute need, namely total Israeli withdrawal from all the territories, a stopping and withdrawing of all the settlements, then Arafat was successful. But we have a tendency sometimes in the United States...
SANCHEZ: But what did that get him? But professor, what did that get him? He held out, waited, and we're no better off now. In fact, most would argue we're much worse off now than we were prior to 2000 or around the year 2000.
STEIN: But for Arafat, he maintained control over the national movement. And for him, that was very important. In terms of did it bring economic success or advancement to the Palestinian people? No. Did it cause 3,000 people to die? Sure it did.
But Arafat retained his commitment throughout his entire life not to concede to Israel, not to concede to Zionism. And in that sense, he was successful. Of course he didn't bring about a negotiated settlement. He frustrated the Clinton administration, and then he frustrated the Bush administration as well.
So an opportunity does appear now that we could see a reopening of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The question is, how and when? And the biggest mistake I think we should make -- we would make in America, is if we jumped in too soon to try and push negotiations before the Palestinians decided who their leaders were and what the direction would be.
KAGAN: All right, Ken, we're going to have you stand by as we're watching these live pictures at Villa Cu Lake (ph), the airport there in France, just outside Paris. That helicopter has landed, and it holds the body and coffin of Yasser Arafat.
Our Jim Bittermann standing by at that airport with more on that -- Jim.
SANCHEZ: Jim Bittermann, can you hear us?
BITTERMANN: OK. Yes, I hear you fine Rick and Daryn.
In fact, the helicopter has just arrived here. I think you can probably see it there. The engine's winding down. That's the helicopter with the coffin on it.
Now we have in the crowd here a great number of French dignitaries. I see the foreign minister, the speaker of the national assembly, the prime minister is here, Nabil Shaath is here from Palestinian Authority, Nala Shaheed (ph), who is the Palestinian representative in France, as well as a number of Islamic leaders. I see the head of the Grand Mosque (ph) of Paris is here, Mr. Mubakar (ph), just a number of French dignitaries, friends.
Now coming out of the helicopter first, I think is from this distance, it looks like Suha Arafat coming out. We know that traveling with Arafat is Arafat's body is, as well, his nephew, the United Nations ambassador, who is going to be traveling back to Cairo here.
And now an honor guard is going to go to the helicopter, and bring out the coffin. The coffin will be placed in the front of the dignitaries that are gathered here, and then like I say, like I mentioned before, there may or may not be a brief remark here from the prime minister, but we're not positive he's going to say anything. It may just be simply a ceremony, military ceremony.
KAGAN: Daryn Kagan, along with Rick Sanchez here. I want to welcome our viewers that are joining us on CNN's International, watching the ceremony around the world.
Jim, a question we were trying to ask you earlier when the band was playing in your ear -- this ceremony, how typical, and what does it represent what the French are trying to say about Yasser Arafat and his passing?
BITTERMANN: Well, I think, Daryn, they really want to honor Arafat. They want to show that, as far as they were concerned, he was an effective partner in the Middle East. I think they showed that a couple of times along the line in recent years, including the visits that were paid by the foreign minister to his compound in Ramallah, but also the medical care that they gave him in Paris, and this is, I think a last sendoff.
One of the people I see in the crowd is the former foreign minister Roland Dumas (ph). You probably can't pick him out on the screen, but in fact he was instrumental during the Mitterrand era here. He was longtime foreign minister under Mitterrand. And a number of the people that are here to honor Arafat are people who dealt with him directly, and along the way at various stages tried with Arafat to manufacture some kind of a peace in the Middle East, and of course never being successful.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Jim, I'm wondering about the process of this particular ceremony. I understand it's going to be a very brief ceremony, is that right?
BITTERMANN: Well, this is something that they kind of, I think, put together at the last minute. I'm not sure that there was any sort of format for this. They -- I think that they recognized the fact that a number of people who knew Arafat were living in Paris, and that they would want to, in some way, honor his departure.
SANCHEZ: And there we see for the first time the pallbearers with the casket, the body of Yasser Arafat. Boy, this has been quite a process over the last week. Still, to this very moment, we don't know exactly what Mr. Arafat died of. There have been several reports, way too many to specific rate, obviously. Obviously, we know it had something to do with some type of blood disorder. But beyond that, we haven't been able to report. He's been there for the better part of the last week or so, and it was just late last night, Eastern Time here in the United States, that we learned around 11:00 p.m. that Mr. Arafat had indeed passed away.
KAGAN: They had been more forthcoming in what he didn't have, were very adamant coming out and saying he didn't have cancer, he didn't have this, he didn't have that. Clearly he was an older man, 75-years-old. Had not been well, suffering from Parkinson's disease.
We will talk more about what's going to happen with this funeral procession in a moment. Right now, we're going to listen.
SANCHEZ: You're watching a ceremony that's taking place right now at Villacorbay Air Base in Paris. It's about five minutes as the crow flies -- or in this case, the helicopter flies. They just recently brought the body of Yasser Arafat to this particular venue. And we have assembled a team of people that we can talk to about this particular ceremony and what we'll be seeing over the next two days. It will go from Cairo, where they'll have a military funeral, then finally to the burial of Yasser Arafat there in Ramallah. He had wanted to be buried in East Jerusalem, of course, but the Israelis said they will not allow that.
KAGAN: And you've heard some Palestinian leaders like Saeb Erakat come out and say well this is just a temporary resting place in Ramallah, that the shrines they're making for him there is going to actually be movable, because they believe one day they will have part of East Jerusalem as part of a Palestinian state. And they would intend to move the remains of Yasser Arafat and the shrine to that part of the city.
SANCHEZ: Let's bring in Professor Ken Stein. He's a professor at Emory university. He took part in the accord in 1993 with Yitzhak Rabin. He was also -- in some part, I imagine -- associated with what happened with the 1993 -- your were at the Camp David's, and you were also in '93 with Yitzhak Rabin. Is that correct?
STEIN: Well, I was -- I attended the White House ceremony, and I saw Arafat the night before the ceremony was signed.
SANCHEZ: Let me read you something Tom Friedman over at "The New York Times" wrote recently.
"Two generations of Palestinians remained in their poverty and displacement because he, Yasser Arafat, never had the courage to tell them the truth -- that Palestine will have to be divided with the Jews forever, that we must make a final deal that we can have over the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem."
That's what Friedman says that -- writes that Yasser Arafat should have done to prepare his people for an eventual two-state solution. Is he right?
STEIN: I don't think public diplomacy has ever been a big suit for either the Americans, the Israelis, or the Palestinians when it came to negotiations. The Egyptians and the Americans didn't do it in the '70s. Didn't change Egyptian atmosphere when they called Begin a Nazi.
I think one of the things that you need in a negotiated settlement between Arabs and Israelis is a realization it's not just what you sign on the contract, what you sign on the dotted line, but it's what changes in people's heads and hearts over time.
And that can only be done if leaders speak out and speak out against violence, speak out against hatred, speak out against distrust. And I think that has to come from all sides.
To be sure, Arafat never did that. Because Arafat, at one and the same time, wanted to be a negotiator and he also wanted to be the leader of the armed struggle. And he couldn't go all the way to one side without sacrificing one or the other.
So, in that sense, Friedman is right. Arafat did not provide the economic well-being for the Palestinian people as someone might have hoped and wished. But what Arafat did do, he kept the dream alive.
Now that he is passing, that blockage in the artery of what the Palestinians want, will his ideology continue into the next generation? And from what we understand about public opinion in the West Bank is there seems to be a greater desire to reach an accommodation to separate Palestinians and Israelis west of the Jordan River into two states, and that's a real possibility. It's a real likelihood.
The biggest problem we've had for years is that the leadership of the Palestinian national movement has been controlled by a few people at the top without giving a chance to the people at the bottom to really express themselves. When I monitored the Palestinian elections in January of 1996 in Ramallah, you could see that the Palestinians had a deep passion for civil society, for expressing themselves democratically.
They didn't want a security organ, whether it was Arafat's or the Israelis' with a boot on their back or on their neck. From the public research that we see now, public opinion research, there seems to be an indication that the Palestinians want to have a say about their future.
And what I find enormously significant is that when you take a look at the Palestinian draft constitution, they want to put the authority in an independent judiciary and an independent parliament. This was a draft constitution that was written in May 2003.
SANCHEZ: What does that mean in layman's terms?
STEIN: But what they don't want to do is they don't want to put authority into the hands of an autocratic president. You take a look at the powers of the president that they have outlined -- it is rather limited. They want to put the power into the hands of the individuals and into the hands of a parliament. And that is significant. That may be Arafat's greatest legacy to the Palestinian people.
KAGAN: All right. Professor Stein, we'll be back with you in just a moment. We want to go to the State Department. Our Andrea Koppel standing by.
Andrea, if you could talk about how the Bush administration sees this as an opportunity, perhaps, for opening perhaps peace talks with too grand of a goal, at this point, but what kind of opportunity the Bush administration sees at this point with the passing of Yasser Arafat.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly because President Bush had made very clear for the last two- and-a-half years, Daryn, that Yasser Arafat in the U.S. view was the chief obstacle to peace and that he had to step aside and a new Palestinian leadership should emerge, his passing certainly would then remove that obstacle from the U.S. perspective, and there would be no more excuses, so to speak.
And really, just looking at these pictures right now, I'm struck by the difference in symbolism that really represents just the stark differences between the way that many European countries, many Arab countries have treated the Palestinians -- and Yasser Arafat, specifically -- in recent years, and the way that the Bush administration has.
What the U.S. has done since Yasser Arafat passed away has really checked the box. They've done the very minimum that you can do to pay your respects. What you're seeing the French do there is really the bells and whistles and pulling out all the stops for Yasser Arafat, as Jim Bittermann noted, on very short notice.
What we're going to look at in the days to come are the following. And what we really need to look for is not just the symbolism of how does the U.S. honor Yasser Arafat's memory, but more so, what is the U.S. going to do, what is the Bush administration going to do substantively to engage the Palestinian leadership, at least for the next 60 days? We know there are going to be elections, or there are supposed to be elections in 60 days.
Is the U.S. going to do what the Palestinians are now asking? You heard one of the chief negotiators say today, "Please help us with these elections." Will the Bush administration get engaged on that front? Will they use their clout with Israel to put forward confidence-building measures, like lifting obstacles, getting money out that they've been holding of the Palestinians, and releasing Palestinian prisoners -- the things that can empower the new Palestinian leadership, Daryn.
SANCHEZ: Important distinction made by Andrea Koppel.
Let's take you now to the very place where the people living day- to-day are affected by this and are watching it, one would imagine, very carefully. Guy Raz is joining us now from Jerusalem with reaction from there. Guy, over to you.
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rick, you could describe the reaction here in Israel as somewhat subdued. Perhaps a combination of ambivalence, caution, and even, to some extent, optimism.
Now to give a bit of a window into what we might expect in the coming weeks and months from the Israeli government, the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, just a short time ago giving a speech, where he told an audience that he hopes the Israeli government will be able to start negotiations with the new Palestinian leadership. But at the same time, he said, quote, as long as no real steps are taken in what he described as the war on terror, there will be no change in Israeli policy.
Now, to some extent, and to many observers of this conflict over the past four years, it's really in some ways become personified by the two figures, Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon. In a sense, it ceased to be about Israelis and Palestinians, but about these two leaders.
And essentially, Israel has isolated Yasser Arafat for the past four years, declaring him irrelevant and declaring him as not a credible partner for negotiating peace, a position which we just heard from Andrea Koppel that the Bush administration has also adopted.
Now, of course, with Yasser Arafat's passing, some Israeli analysts are essentially saying well, the alibi, if you will, or Israel's platform on Yasser Arafat is essentially evaporated. And at this point, the Israeli government will be forced to reassess its stance, its position on negotiating peace with the Palestinians -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: I'm curious, Guy, just quickly, the average Israeli on the street, if you were to ask him right now, as he's watching this process on television there on channel 2 in Israel, if they're indeed broadcasting it, what's his reaction? Is it one of relief or one of revulsion?
RAZ: I think a combination of the two to be quite honest, Rick. At times, Yasser Arafat was respected by many Israelis. At times, he was reviled. And I certainly think in the past four years there's been a sense among Israelis that Yasser Arafat didn't really deliver the goods, if you will. He wasn't, from the Israeli perspective, as far as their narrative is concerned, he wasn't willing to end the armed struggle against Israel, if you will, and bring about a peaceful resolution to the conflict here -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Guy Raz, following the situation for us there in Israel. We certainly appreciate that reaction and insight.
KAGAN: So we go from that ceremony, taking place in Paris, France for Yasser Arafat, to a very different ceremony that will be taking place in the U.S.. It is Veteran's Day.
SANCHEZ: We see Paul Wolfowitz and Secretary of State Colin Powell.
KAGAN: And President Bush, if he's not already there, will be arriving to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns.
SANCHEZ: And we'll have it for you. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We're looking at live pictures from Arlington National Cemetery.
SANCHEZ: Karl Rove.
KAGAN: There's arriving there. The man that a lot of people credit helping President Bush win re-election, standing next to Paul Wolfowitz and to Secretary of State Colin Powell. Any minute, we expect President George Bush to arrive and lay a tomb -- lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown.
SANCHEZ: Yes, members of his cabinet have gathered there. Some there you can see behind, Secretary Mineta and others that we have seen, will be waiting for the president and Mrs. Bush. They depart the White House and will arrive there at Arlington National Cemetery, where both will lay the wreath, and then they're scheduled to give some remarks a little bit later. It's scheduled for 11:10. And as you probably have come to know, the White House is usually very punctual at events like this. It's a very important day there at National Arlington cemetery.
KAGAN: And meanwhile, while we wait for the president, let's bring in our Jason Carroll, who is live now in New Jersey -- Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, as you know, obviously it is Veteran's Day, a very emotional day here at Ft. Dix for the men and women who are out here. Just about 20 minutes ago, Daryn the field behind me cleared out as the men and women who are members of the 150th Aviation Battalion headed off to the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day that you signed up to put on this uniform you became a veteran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: And President Bush arriving now at Arlington National Cemetery to conduct this ceremony. Let's listen in.
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