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CNN Live Today
Tens of Thousands of Mourners Swarm Arafat's Coffin; Mideast Peace is Tony Blair's Top Priority with Bush; 23 U.S. and Iraqi Soldiers Killed in Falluja
Aired November 12, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Lin here at the CNN Center. And here's what's happening right now in the news.
Thousands of emotionally charged Palestinians flood the streets, as former Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was buried at his compound, in Ramallah about two hours ago. Israel had denied Arafat's wish to be buried in Jerusalem. So instead, soil from Jerusalem was poured on top of his coffin. We are going to have a live report from Ramallah in one minute.
And five days into the battle for Falluja, and U.S. forces say they now have control of most of the southern part of the city. House-to-house, street-to-street fighting continues, though. And huge weapons caches have been found in schools and mosques. And hostage slaughterhouses have been discovered. We're going to give you a taste of the street fighting later this hour.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair meets this hour with President Bush at the White House. The war in Iraq and the Mideast peace effort reportedly are high on the agenda. They will be making a public statement this morning around 11:25 Eastern. And we're going to be covering that live.
In Redwood City, California, deliberations are to resume next hour in the murder trial of Scott Peterson. The jury was off yesterday for Veterans Day. This will be Day 7 of deliberations. But in many ways, it will be a fresh start. The judge dismissed two jurors in the last two days of talks. They are starting over.
Good morning, I'm Carol Lin. And we are going to begin with an extraordinary outpouring of grief, and an eruption of chaos in the Middle East.
Yasser Arafat returns home. A Palestinian dream unfulfilled. A public adulation intemperate by death. Tens of thousands of frenzied Palestinian mourners stormed into the PLO compound that will enshrine him and his unrelenting call for statehood.
We have CNN correspondents posted throughout the Middle East on this story. Right now, we're going to begin with Michael Holmes who has an exceptional vantage point on the Ramallah compound, and the swarms of mourners who engulfed it.
Michael, when we looked at those pictures here from a domestic angle here, it looked like utter chaos out there in the courtyard of the Mukata.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think anyone can disagree with that, Carol. It was utter chaos. It was not the way it was meant to go. That compound was meant to be empty of people. Although they were going to be on the outside, they were going to be allowed in around now, actually, to go and view the tomb of Yasser Arafat. But the Palestinian people were not going to be kept on the outside of those walls.
They climbed the walls. They poured in through holes in the walls. And in there, thousands swarmed onto the open area there. It's actually the size of a big parade ground. And you can hear celebratory gunfire in the background behind me still.
Now, what happened was, the security forces were completely overwhelmed. They could not keep the crowds back. They ended up pushing them back to about half the size of this large area, where three helicopters were meant to land. In the end only -- there was only room for two and barely room for that many.
And when the helicopters landed, of course, the inevitable happened. And they were swarmed once again by the Palestinians who wanted to see one last time the casket of their leader. The man for whom they have instilled so much in. And to the world, who probably delivered so little. However to them he is the father of their nation to be, whenever that may come.
Now, he was eventually buried after his coffin was carried through the crowd at head height and lowered into the tomb. Which had been built literally in the last 36 hours. Piles of dirt were thrown in, and these weren't -- this wasn't just ordinary dirt, Carol. This was dirt that had been brought in the al Aqsa Mosque, which is in East Jerusalem. That is where Yasser Arafat wanted to be burred. Palestinians say that when they get their state one day, one day that that is where Yasser Arafat's body will be taken to, and reburied -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Michael Holmes reporting live in Ramallah.
We're going to have much more analysis of what this all means to the future of a Palestinian state and peace negotiations. But right now, we want to bring you a more personal aspect of this morning's coverage. Amid the throngs of Palestinian mourners, there was a little girl who wept at the site of her father's coffin. Nine-year- old Zahwa is rarely seen in public and had, in fact, rarely seen her father. For the last several years, Arafat lived virtually as a prisoner in the Ramallah compound. Now, his daughter lives in Paris with her mother, Arafat's widow Suha.
In the meantime, police in Israel are on their highest level of alert amid fears of Palestinian violence. Israel had rejected Palestinian requests for Arafat's body to be buried in Jerusalem.
And that's where we find CNN's Guy Raz. Guy, it doesn't necessarily mean that one day Arafat's body would not lie at rest in East Jerusalem, but a lot has to happen until that point?
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Carol. And that's something that Palestinian leaders are hoping for. The moment they establish an independent Palestinian state, with perhaps this part of Jerusalem, East Jerusalem as its capital, the hope is that Yasser Arafat remains' could be re-interred to the al Aqsa compound just beyond us now.
For more insight now on this situation, we're joined by Ari Shavit. He's a columnist with the Israeli newspaper, "Ha'Aretz."
Ari Shavit, tell us how Yasser Arafat's legacy will be assessed in Israel.
ARI SHAVIT, ISRAELI COLUMNIST, "HA'ARETZ": Well, for Israelis, Arafat was a frightening figure. For a while he was almost a demonic enemy. Then he became a partner. Israelis trusted him. They gave him a chance. And they feel that they've been betrayed. That at the end of the day, in the long process, Arafat failed to produce a liable, a viable Palestinian society, which would really engage in a real peace process.
So Israelis, I think, feel that they cannot really be sorry for his death. But at the same time, I do think that there is a certain concern. And there is a feeling that now that the Palestinian people are moving to a new phase, Israelis would like to reach out and try a new beginning in the post-Arafat era.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, you talk about a new beginning. But perhaps we had a window into what Israeli policy might be in the coming weeks and months ahead. The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon essentially saying his government's policy, vis-a-vis negotiations with Palestinians, will not charge unless the emerging Palestinian leadership clamps down on militant groups. How is any kind of peace plan meant to be resurrected if, in fact, the policy doesn't change?
SHAVIT: First of all, Mr. Sharon is committed to the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. He will go on with that. The challenge now is to turn this unilateral plan into a bilateral plan. I think there is a certain chance that with a new, more moderate Palestinian leadership, some sort of negotiations will begin, in order to turn the Gaza land into plan that would be a bit like an interim agreement within Palestinians and Israelis.
This is not easy, it will be difficult to achieve. But while final status agreement cannot be seen right now, some sort of move toward turning the Gaza plan to a bilateral, interim agreement might be possible. And Mr. Sharon might be persuaded to even support that.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, you spoke yourself at times, how Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat in some senses came to personify the conflict. It ceased to be about Israelis and Palestinians, but more about Ariel Sharon, more about Yasser Arafat. Yasser Arafat is now gone, Ariel Sharon remains. Can peace really be attained with the man, the figure of Ariel Sharon at the helm of the Israeli government in your view?
SHAVIT: If I may refer to Arafat first. I think that Arafat was the founding figure of the Palestinian people. In many ways, he was a great leader for his own people. For 30 years he led them, he gave them identity. He symbolized them and he gave them a place in the international -- on the international arena. But over the last 10 years, Arafat had failed his own people, not only Israelis. He failed to move on from the stage of a revolutionary to the stage of a statesman.
And this is why he is leaving behind a rather chaotic situation and not the beginning of a really -- a state to be. I think the challenge now for the new Palestinian leadership is really to move beyond that legacy. Not betray Arafat but really start to build something new, and try to create a more Democratic Palestine, a more constructive Palestine.
I think if this process begins, then Ariel Sharon will be forced to cooperate with it, whether he likes it or not. And then, we'll be seeing the beginning of the road towards a two-state solution, where you have a democratic Jewish state on the one hand and a Palestinian democratic state on the other.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, thank you very much for your time.
Carol, clearly many different perspectives on Yasser Arafat's legacy all around the world. To some a revolutionary, the man who obviously embodied the aspirations of his people. To others a militant, a terrorist. Others a freedom fighter. But Yasser Arafat's legacy certainly will not die with his physical death -- Carol.
LIN: Certainly. And a lot of work ahead for the Palestinian leadership. Guy, is your sense then from Israelis that you're talking to, that Israel will actually pull back enough from its activities in the West Bank and Gaza to allow the Palestinians to have a legitimate election?
RAZ: Well, that hasn't been discussed at this point yet. It's still really far too early to know what will happen. Now, in the event there are Palestinian elections, there will certainly be pressure on the Israeli government, certainly from the international community to do just that. To withdraw Israeli forces from Palestinian population centers, in order to enable some kind of Democratic election to take place.
But at the same time, what's key on the agenda here among the Israeli government, of course, is this issue of withdrawing from Gaza. Whether the Israelis will do it without any Palestinian input or coordination. Or whether now that Mr. Arafat is gone, the Israelis will be willing to work with an emerging Palestinian leadership, and coordinate that move to withdraw Jewish settlements and soldiers from the Gaza Strip by the end of next year -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Sounds like the chicken or the egg scenario coming up in the Middle East.
Thanks very much Guy Raz reporting live in Jerusalem.
Well, President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are meeting right now in the Oval Office. CNN's senior White House correspondent John King is meeting with administration officials at the moment, and he's going to join us shortly.
But first, we want to show you the political equation between these two men and the subplot that bridges an ocean. From London we're going to get details from CNN's European political editor Robin Oakley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN'S EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR (voice-over): He's got a first post-election invite to Washington. But is Tony Blair really that pleased to see George Bush back in the White House? Mr. Bush has fought and won his election. Mr. Blair has his to come. And many in his Labour Party say their potential supporters are dismayed that he must now fight it tied to a president who remains deeply unpopular in the U.K.
JEREMY CORBYN, MEMBER, LABOUR PARTY: They say to me, pained expression, why is our leader so close to such a right wing, ideologue American leader? They don't understand it. And it's very damaging.
OAKLEY: It doesn't help, say the critics, that Blair's weak point with electors is Iraq.
CORBYN: Bush is now stuck in the mire in Iraq for the foreseeable future. And because of the close relationship, we're stuck, as well.
OAKLEY: Opposition politicians, too, complain Mr. Blair hasn't demanded enough in return for his loyalty.
Michael ANCRAM, CONSERVATIVE SPOKESMAN: Instead of pressing the British case or British arguments, he's effectively done what the president asked him to do, and forgotten that he should be there arguing Britain's corner.
OAKLEY: The key tests, say Mr. Blair's followers, is on the Middle East. And at Labour's conference in September, he seemed to agree.
TONY BLAIR, PRIME MINISTER, U.K.: I think you know the depth of my commitment to the Middle East peace process. And share my frustration at the lack of progress. After November, I will make its revival a personal priority.
OAKLEY: Aides now say that Mr. Blair wants to hold the president to his promise, that he would invest as much effort in the Middle East, as his ally has done in Northern Ireland.
(on camera): Mr. Bush has shown a personal mark of favor with his swift invitation to the prime minister. But British parliamentarians say that what Mr. Blair needs now on the Middle East, and other key questions, is some concrete evidence that his faithfulness as an ally actually buys him some clout in Washington. So far, they reckon the evidence is pretty thin.
Robin Oakley, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: And that's why we expect to hear a lot of about whether -- what the United States is going to do to further a Middle East peace plan when the two leaders hold a joint news conference this morning at the White House. We're going to plan live coverage at 11:25 Eastern. A lot at stake at this meeting for both Tony Blair and President Bush.
In the meantime, the fighting is intense and the pictures are so dramatic. Still to come, our reporters are embedded in the midst of the battle and we are getting new video by the hour. And we are going to have the latest from Falluja.
Plus, a 90-pound gymnast lands in some hot water and some people are flipping mad. Find out what she did, coming up.
And still ahead, this new mother thought she had set a record at giving birth to twins at the age of 56. But there's another woman who will soon have to beat her. That story straight ahead. She looks pretty good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: We've been covering it all morning; Middle East peace efforts remain high on Tony Blair's priority list, as the British prime minister wraps up formal talks with President Bush today. They are to resume meeting at any moment at the White House.
And we're going to bring in our senior White House correspondent John King to set the stage for us, for what's at stake at this meeting.
John, you've been talking with some administration officials behind the scenes. What are the plans for today's event?
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, that meeting under way. Prime Minister Blair arrived here a short time ago. He is meeting with President Bush in the Oval Office; those, the formal discussions. But the prime minister, of course, this president's closest ally, perhaps -- and you see the limousine pulling up this morning arrived here last night, too, and had a casual dinner with the president in the residence here at the White House.
They're discussing, of course, the joint strategy for Iraq. But they also are discussing on this day Yasser Arafat was laid to rest, Prime Minister Blair's hope, and we are told this president's commitment, for a more aggressive and energetic effort to try to get the Israeli/Palestinian peace process back on track. Now, the president has said earlier this week that he views the passing of Yasser Arafat as an opportunity for a pragmatic Palestinian leadership. One of the criticisms from Prime Minister Blair and others in Europe is that they don't think this president has invested enough personal time and energy in that diplomacy. The White House would say that the president did make a run at this, when Mahmoud Abbas was the prime minister of the Palestinian people. But that in this president's view, Yasser Arafat then undermined Mr. Abbas.
So the president says if a new Palestinian leadership emerges, and he will make this public commitment later today here at a news conference, that he is more than willing to engage in another round of diplomacy.
One of the key questions is some of the Europeans say name a special Mideast envoy. The White House has been lukewarm to that approach. But that is one of the requests, we are told of Prime Minister Blair, to at least consider that. So it will be interesting to see what the president says on that front today.
One of the interesting dynamics, Carol, is that the president faces these questions about what will be the future strategy for Middle East diplomacy, we are told we're just days away from some likely changes in his own national security team. Secretary of state Powell said not to be staying too long. Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, likely to be moving into a new job or leaving the administration altogether. So the president, at a delicate moment on the world stage, at also a delicate moment in assembling his own team for that diplomacy in the months ahead -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, John king live at the White House. We're going to be hearing from President Bush and the prime minister at 11:25 Eastern this morning.
Onto the fight for Iraq. It is now Day 5 in the battle for Falluja. Fighting raged through the night and into the morning. The skies flickering with artillery and tank fire. U.S. and Iraqi troops continue their relentless press through the city. And are now essentially in control of the southern sector.
Now along the way, they have uncovered mosques and schools crammed with bombs, anti-tank mines and weapons caches. And so far, the military reports at least 23 U.S. and Iraqi troops have died in the operation. More than 200 have been wounded. The battle is not over yet.
Now, as you know by now, we have several reporters embedded with troops in Falluja, eyewitnesses to street battles and house-to-house combat. And because of that dangerous nature of the job, we can't always talk to them. They do phone in when they can. They continue to send video from the front lines, though.
And CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman has been monitoring those incoming images. He's with me now to share some of them.
Gary, this is a military pool, pictures coming in by the moment. What have you seen so far? What have you discerned what's happening on the battlefield?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, on the fifth day of the attack on Falluja the pictures we are receiving are the most vivid yet. U.S. Marines are going house by house through the Iraqi city, as they fight to secure the insurgent enclave.
A fierce battle erupted between U.S. forces and insurgents near a mosque in the northern part of Falluja. The sounds of machine-gun fire and grenades are reverberating there and elsewhere in the city. A new video we have received shows the danger and the chaos vividly.
(BEGIN AND END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: The combination of fear and adrenaline these troops are experiencing is almost unimaginable. Twenty-three U.S. and Iraqi forces have been killed in action this week, and at least 200 others have been wounded. U.S. military officials say hundreds of insurgents have been killed.
Falluja is described as a ghost town right now. Tens of thousands of residents have fled. Women, children and old men are still being allowed to leave if they wish. Most of the male residents who did not initially leave are now stuck. A U.S. Marine spokesman says Falluja is now under control, but that it will still take some time to secure it -- Carol.
LIN: Gary, do you have a sense of, given that we're looking at most of the rooftop positions, that the U.S. coalition has been able to take in Falluja, do you know what the status of the battle is?
TUCHMAN: What we're being told by military officials right now is the city. There is still work to be done. But if people thought this would be a one or two or three-day operation, they're mistaken.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Gary Tuchman.
We're also hearing a lot more, too, about whether humanitarian aid is being allowed into the city and whether the wounded are being able to be treated. That's become a big problem for the International Red Crescent Society. We're going to hear more about that during this program.
Also, you were taking a look at the military side of the war. But what about civilians who stayed behind and ignored pre-battle warnings to evacuate? Well, people reported the smell of rotting bodies rising from the streets. And we have just received this desperate description from a Dr. Ali Abbas inside Falluja.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DR. ALI ABBAS, FALLUJA RESIDENT (through translator): I am one of the few survivors of Monday's massacre in Falluja. We are in an extremely disastrous state. We see whole families and bodies scattered across the street. Even those wounded, we can do nothing for them. It is very catastrophic. We are in a graveyard, however only there are no graves. We have no water, no electricity, no communication. We cannot evacuate the wounded of women and children. They are crying and shouting. Barbaric bombing is everywhere in Falluja and firearm shots are heard everywhere. We hear a lot of speakers that we should go out with white flags and surrender. But we do not know what to do. Stay in and risk being killed by the bombing? Or go out and risk being killed by the bullets?
Many families are with no water, food or power. They are under siege in their homes. We do not know what to do or what to say.
We still hear bullets and explosions, and we're in a state of complete chaos. Hundreds of dead bodies are on the streets and we can do nothing to evacuate them. We are pleading to the world through al Jazeera to hear us and come to our rescue. We have dead and wounded civilians in this besieged and devastated city.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LIN: Well, that interview with Dr. Ali Abbas describing conditions in Falluja came from the al Jazeera Network. But again, a debate amongst humanitarian groups right now whether they're going to violate military rules and go in to Falluja so that they can treat some of the wounded Dr. Abbas was talking about. We're going to hear more about that in this hour.
In the meantime, an apparent abduction from a busy shopping center is raising several questions today. No victim? No suspect? Still ahead, how will police break this case?
Plus, we were in awe as this 57-year-old gave birth to twins earlier this week. But one pregnant great-grandmother will likely surpass that astonishing achievement.
These stories as CNN LIVE TODAY rolls on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired November 12, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Lin here at the CNN Center. And here's what's happening right now in the news.
Thousands of emotionally charged Palestinians flood the streets, as former Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was buried at his compound, in Ramallah about two hours ago. Israel had denied Arafat's wish to be buried in Jerusalem. So instead, soil from Jerusalem was poured on top of his coffin. We are going to have a live report from Ramallah in one minute.
And five days into the battle for Falluja, and U.S. forces say they now have control of most of the southern part of the city. House-to-house, street-to-street fighting continues, though. And huge weapons caches have been found in schools and mosques. And hostage slaughterhouses have been discovered. We're going to give you a taste of the street fighting later this hour.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair meets this hour with President Bush at the White House. The war in Iraq and the Mideast peace effort reportedly are high on the agenda. They will be making a public statement this morning around 11:25 Eastern. And we're going to be covering that live.
In Redwood City, California, deliberations are to resume next hour in the murder trial of Scott Peterson. The jury was off yesterday for Veterans Day. This will be Day 7 of deliberations. But in many ways, it will be a fresh start. The judge dismissed two jurors in the last two days of talks. They are starting over.
Good morning, I'm Carol Lin. And we are going to begin with an extraordinary outpouring of grief, and an eruption of chaos in the Middle East.
Yasser Arafat returns home. A Palestinian dream unfulfilled. A public adulation intemperate by death. Tens of thousands of frenzied Palestinian mourners stormed into the PLO compound that will enshrine him and his unrelenting call for statehood.
We have CNN correspondents posted throughout the Middle East on this story. Right now, we're going to begin with Michael Holmes who has an exceptional vantage point on the Ramallah compound, and the swarms of mourners who engulfed it.
Michael, when we looked at those pictures here from a domestic angle here, it looked like utter chaos out there in the courtyard of the Mukata.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think anyone can disagree with that, Carol. It was utter chaos. It was not the way it was meant to go. That compound was meant to be empty of people. Although they were going to be on the outside, they were going to be allowed in around now, actually, to go and view the tomb of Yasser Arafat. But the Palestinian people were not going to be kept on the outside of those walls.
They climbed the walls. They poured in through holes in the walls. And in there, thousands swarmed onto the open area there. It's actually the size of a big parade ground. And you can hear celebratory gunfire in the background behind me still.
Now, what happened was, the security forces were completely overwhelmed. They could not keep the crowds back. They ended up pushing them back to about half the size of this large area, where three helicopters were meant to land. In the end only -- there was only room for two and barely room for that many.
And when the helicopters landed, of course, the inevitable happened. And they were swarmed once again by the Palestinians who wanted to see one last time the casket of their leader. The man for whom they have instilled so much in. And to the world, who probably delivered so little. However to them he is the father of their nation to be, whenever that may come.
Now, he was eventually buried after his coffin was carried through the crowd at head height and lowered into the tomb. Which had been built literally in the last 36 hours. Piles of dirt were thrown in, and these weren't -- this wasn't just ordinary dirt, Carol. This was dirt that had been brought in the al Aqsa Mosque, which is in East Jerusalem. That is where Yasser Arafat wanted to be burred. Palestinians say that when they get their state one day, one day that that is where Yasser Arafat's body will be taken to, and reburied -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Michael Holmes reporting live in Ramallah.
We're going to have much more analysis of what this all means to the future of a Palestinian state and peace negotiations. But right now, we want to bring you a more personal aspect of this morning's coverage. Amid the throngs of Palestinian mourners, there was a little girl who wept at the site of her father's coffin. Nine-year- old Zahwa is rarely seen in public and had, in fact, rarely seen her father. For the last several years, Arafat lived virtually as a prisoner in the Ramallah compound. Now, his daughter lives in Paris with her mother, Arafat's widow Suha.
In the meantime, police in Israel are on their highest level of alert amid fears of Palestinian violence. Israel had rejected Palestinian requests for Arafat's body to be buried in Jerusalem.
And that's where we find CNN's Guy Raz. Guy, it doesn't necessarily mean that one day Arafat's body would not lie at rest in East Jerusalem, but a lot has to happen until that point?
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Carol. And that's something that Palestinian leaders are hoping for. The moment they establish an independent Palestinian state, with perhaps this part of Jerusalem, East Jerusalem as its capital, the hope is that Yasser Arafat remains' could be re-interred to the al Aqsa compound just beyond us now.
For more insight now on this situation, we're joined by Ari Shavit. He's a columnist with the Israeli newspaper, "Ha'Aretz."
Ari Shavit, tell us how Yasser Arafat's legacy will be assessed in Israel.
ARI SHAVIT, ISRAELI COLUMNIST, "HA'ARETZ": Well, for Israelis, Arafat was a frightening figure. For a while he was almost a demonic enemy. Then he became a partner. Israelis trusted him. They gave him a chance. And they feel that they've been betrayed. That at the end of the day, in the long process, Arafat failed to produce a liable, a viable Palestinian society, which would really engage in a real peace process.
So Israelis, I think, feel that they cannot really be sorry for his death. But at the same time, I do think that there is a certain concern. And there is a feeling that now that the Palestinian people are moving to a new phase, Israelis would like to reach out and try a new beginning in the post-Arafat era.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, you talk about a new beginning. But perhaps we had a window into what Israeli policy might be in the coming weeks and months ahead. The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon essentially saying his government's policy, vis-a-vis negotiations with Palestinians, will not charge unless the emerging Palestinian leadership clamps down on militant groups. How is any kind of peace plan meant to be resurrected if, in fact, the policy doesn't change?
SHAVIT: First of all, Mr. Sharon is committed to the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. He will go on with that. The challenge now is to turn this unilateral plan into a bilateral plan. I think there is a certain chance that with a new, more moderate Palestinian leadership, some sort of negotiations will begin, in order to turn the Gaza land into plan that would be a bit like an interim agreement within Palestinians and Israelis.
This is not easy, it will be difficult to achieve. But while final status agreement cannot be seen right now, some sort of move toward turning the Gaza plan to a bilateral, interim agreement might be possible. And Mr. Sharon might be persuaded to even support that.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, you spoke yourself at times, how Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat in some senses came to personify the conflict. It ceased to be about Israelis and Palestinians, but more about Ariel Sharon, more about Yasser Arafat. Yasser Arafat is now gone, Ariel Sharon remains. Can peace really be attained with the man, the figure of Ariel Sharon at the helm of the Israeli government in your view?
SHAVIT: If I may refer to Arafat first. I think that Arafat was the founding figure of the Palestinian people. In many ways, he was a great leader for his own people. For 30 years he led them, he gave them identity. He symbolized them and he gave them a place in the international -- on the international arena. But over the last 10 years, Arafat had failed his own people, not only Israelis. He failed to move on from the stage of a revolutionary to the stage of a statesman.
And this is why he is leaving behind a rather chaotic situation and not the beginning of a really -- a state to be. I think the challenge now for the new Palestinian leadership is really to move beyond that legacy. Not betray Arafat but really start to build something new, and try to create a more Democratic Palestine, a more constructive Palestine.
I think if this process begins, then Ariel Sharon will be forced to cooperate with it, whether he likes it or not. And then, we'll be seeing the beginning of the road towards a two-state solution, where you have a democratic Jewish state on the one hand and a Palestinian democratic state on the other.
RAZ: Ari Shavit, thank you very much for your time.
Carol, clearly many different perspectives on Yasser Arafat's legacy all around the world. To some a revolutionary, the man who obviously embodied the aspirations of his people. To others a militant, a terrorist. Others a freedom fighter. But Yasser Arafat's legacy certainly will not die with his physical death -- Carol.
LIN: Certainly. And a lot of work ahead for the Palestinian leadership. Guy, is your sense then from Israelis that you're talking to, that Israel will actually pull back enough from its activities in the West Bank and Gaza to allow the Palestinians to have a legitimate election?
RAZ: Well, that hasn't been discussed at this point yet. It's still really far too early to know what will happen. Now, in the event there are Palestinian elections, there will certainly be pressure on the Israeli government, certainly from the international community to do just that. To withdraw Israeli forces from Palestinian population centers, in order to enable some kind of Democratic election to take place.
But at the same time, what's key on the agenda here among the Israeli government, of course, is this issue of withdrawing from Gaza. Whether the Israelis will do it without any Palestinian input or coordination. Or whether now that Mr. Arafat is gone, the Israelis will be willing to work with an emerging Palestinian leadership, and coordinate that move to withdraw Jewish settlements and soldiers from the Gaza Strip by the end of next year -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Sounds like the chicken or the egg scenario coming up in the Middle East.
Thanks very much Guy Raz reporting live in Jerusalem.
Well, President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are meeting right now in the Oval Office. CNN's senior White House correspondent John King is meeting with administration officials at the moment, and he's going to join us shortly.
But first, we want to show you the political equation between these two men and the subplot that bridges an ocean. From London we're going to get details from CNN's European political editor Robin Oakley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN'S EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR (voice-over): He's got a first post-election invite to Washington. But is Tony Blair really that pleased to see George Bush back in the White House? Mr. Bush has fought and won his election. Mr. Blair has his to come. And many in his Labour Party say their potential supporters are dismayed that he must now fight it tied to a president who remains deeply unpopular in the U.K.
JEREMY CORBYN, MEMBER, LABOUR PARTY: They say to me, pained expression, why is our leader so close to such a right wing, ideologue American leader? They don't understand it. And it's very damaging.
OAKLEY: It doesn't help, say the critics, that Blair's weak point with electors is Iraq.
CORBYN: Bush is now stuck in the mire in Iraq for the foreseeable future. And because of the close relationship, we're stuck, as well.
OAKLEY: Opposition politicians, too, complain Mr. Blair hasn't demanded enough in return for his loyalty.
Michael ANCRAM, CONSERVATIVE SPOKESMAN: Instead of pressing the British case or British arguments, he's effectively done what the president asked him to do, and forgotten that he should be there arguing Britain's corner.
OAKLEY: The key tests, say Mr. Blair's followers, is on the Middle East. And at Labour's conference in September, he seemed to agree.
TONY BLAIR, PRIME MINISTER, U.K.: I think you know the depth of my commitment to the Middle East peace process. And share my frustration at the lack of progress. After November, I will make its revival a personal priority.
OAKLEY: Aides now say that Mr. Blair wants to hold the president to his promise, that he would invest as much effort in the Middle East, as his ally has done in Northern Ireland.
(on camera): Mr. Bush has shown a personal mark of favor with his swift invitation to the prime minister. But British parliamentarians say that what Mr. Blair needs now on the Middle East, and other key questions, is some concrete evidence that his faithfulness as an ally actually buys him some clout in Washington. So far, they reckon the evidence is pretty thin.
Robin Oakley, CNN, London.
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LIN: And that's why we expect to hear a lot of about whether -- what the United States is going to do to further a Middle East peace plan when the two leaders hold a joint news conference this morning at the White House. We're going to plan live coverage at 11:25 Eastern. A lot at stake at this meeting for both Tony Blair and President Bush.
In the meantime, the fighting is intense and the pictures are so dramatic. Still to come, our reporters are embedded in the midst of the battle and we are getting new video by the hour. And we are going to have the latest from Falluja.
Plus, a 90-pound gymnast lands in some hot water and some people are flipping mad. Find out what she did, coming up.
And still ahead, this new mother thought she had set a record at giving birth to twins at the age of 56. But there's another woman who will soon have to beat her. That story straight ahead. She looks pretty good.
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LIN: We've been covering it all morning; Middle East peace efforts remain high on Tony Blair's priority list, as the British prime minister wraps up formal talks with President Bush today. They are to resume meeting at any moment at the White House.
And we're going to bring in our senior White House correspondent John King to set the stage for us, for what's at stake at this meeting.
John, you've been talking with some administration officials behind the scenes. What are the plans for today's event?
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, that meeting under way. Prime Minister Blair arrived here a short time ago. He is meeting with President Bush in the Oval Office; those, the formal discussions. But the prime minister, of course, this president's closest ally, perhaps -- and you see the limousine pulling up this morning arrived here last night, too, and had a casual dinner with the president in the residence here at the White House.
They're discussing, of course, the joint strategy for Iraq. But they also are discussing on this day Yasser Arafat was laid to rest, Prime Minister Blair's hope, and we are told this president's commitment, for a more aggressive and energetic effort to try to get the Israeli/Palestinian peace process back on track. Now, the president has said earlier this week that he views the passing of Yasser Arafat as an opportunity for a pragmatic Palestinian leadership. One of the criticisms from Prime Minister Blair and others in Europe is that they don't think this president has invested enough personal time and energy in that diplomacy. The White House would say that the president did make a run at this, when Mahmoud Abbas was the prime minister of the Palestinian people. But that in this president's view, Yasser Arafat then undermined Mr. Abbas.
So the president says if a new Palestinian leadership emerges, and he will make this public commitment later today here at a news conference, that he is more than willing to engage in another round of diplomacy.
One of the key questions is some of the Europeans say name a special Mideast envoy. The White House has been lukewarm to that approach. But that is one of the requests, we are told of Prime Minister Blair, to at least consider that. So it will be interesting to see what the president says on that front today.
One of the interesting dynamics, Carol, is that the president faces these questions about what will be the future strategy for Middle East diplomacy, we are told we're just days away from some likely changes in his own national security team. Secretary of state Powell said not to be staying too long. Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, likely to be moving into a new job or leaving the administration altogether. So the president, at a delicate moment on the world stage, at also a delicate moment in assembling his own team for that diplomacy in the months ahead -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, John king live at the White House. We're going to be hearing from President Bush and the prime minister at 11:25 Eastern this morning.
Onto the fight for Iraq. It is now Day 5 in the battle for Falluja. Fighting raged through the night and into the morning. The skies flickering with artillery and tank fire. U.S. and Iraqi troops continue their relentless press through the city. And are now essentially in control of the southern sector.
Now along the way, they have uncovered mosques and schools crammed with bombs, anti-tank mines and weapons caches. And so far, the military reports at least 23 U.S. and Iraqi troops have died in the operation. More than 200 have been wounded. The battle is not over yet.
Now, as you know by now, we have several reporters embedded with troops in Falluja, eyewitnesses to street battles and house-to-house combat. And because of that dangerous nature of the job, we can't always talk to them. They do phone in when they can. They continue to send video from the front lines, though.
And CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman has been monitoring those incoming images. He's with me now to share some of them.
Gary, this is a military pool, pictures coming in by the moment. What have you seen so far? What have you discerned what's happening on the battlefield?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, on the fifth day of the attack on Falluja the pictures we are receiving are the most vivid yet. U.S. Marines are going house by house through the Iraqi city, as they fight to secure the insurgent enclave.
A fierce battle erupted between U.S. forces and insurgents near a mosque in the northern part of Falluja. The sounds of machine-gun fire and grenades are reverberating there and elsewhere in the city. A new video we have received shows the danger and the chaos vividly.
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TUCHMAN: The combination of fear and adrenaline these troops are experiencing is almost unimaginable. Twenty-three U.S. and Iraqi forces have been killed in action this week, and at least 200 others have been wounded. U.S. military officials say hundreds of insurgents have been killed.
Falluja is described as a ghost town right now. Tens of thousands of residents have fled. Women, children and old men are still being allowed to leave if they wish. Most of the male residents who did not initially leave are now stuck. A U.S. Marine spokesman says Falluja is now under control, but that it will still take some time to secure it -- Carol.
LIN: Gary, do you have a sense of, given that we're looking at most of the rooftop positions, that the U.S. coalition has been able to take in Falluja, do you know what the status of the battle is?
TUCHMAN: What we're being told by military officials right now is the city. There is still work to be done. But if people thought this would be a one or two or three-day operation, they're mistaken.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Gary Tuchman.
We're also hearing a lot more, too, about whether humanitarian aid is being allowed into the city and whether the wounded are being able to be treated. That's become a big problem for the International Red Crescent Society. We're going to hear more about that during this program.
Also, you were taking a look at the military side of the war. But what about civilians who stayed behind and ignored pre-battle warnings to evacuate? Well, people reported the smell of rotting bodies rising from the streets. And we have just received this desperate description from a Dr. Ali Abbas inside Falluja.
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DR. ALI ABBAS, FALLUJA RESIDENT (through translator): I am one of the few survivors of Monday's massacre in Falluja. We are in an extremely disastrous state. We see whole families and bodies scattered across the street. Even those wounded, we can do nothing for them. It is very catastrophic. We are in a graveyard, however only there are no graves. We have no water, no electricity, no communication. We cannot evacuate the wounded of women and children. They are crying and shouting. Barbaric bombing is everywhere in Falluja and firearm shots are heard everywhere. We hear a lot of speakers that we should go out with white flags and surrender. But we do not know what to do. Stay in and risk being killed by the bombing? Or go out and risk being killed by the bullets?
Many families are with no water, food or power. They are under siege in their homes. We do not know what to do or what to say.
We still hear bullets and explosions, and we're in a state of complete chaos. Hundreds of dead bodies are on the streets and we can do nothing to evacuate them. We are pleading to the world through al Jazeera to hear us and come to our rescue. We have dead and wounded civilians in this besieged and devastated city.
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LIN: Well, that interview with Dr. Ali Abbas describing conditions in Falluja came from the al Jazeera Network. But again, a debate amongst humanitarian groups right now whether they're going to violate military rules and go in to Falluja so that they can treat some of the wounded Dr. Abbas was talking about. We're going to hear more about that in this hour.
In the meantime, an apparent abduction from a busy shopping center is raising several questions today. No victim? No suspect? Still ahead, how will police break this case?
Plus, we were in awe as this 57-year-old gave birth to twins earlier this week. But one pregnant great-grandmother will likely surpass that astonishing achievement.
These stories as CNN LIVE TODAY rolls on.
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