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Colin Powell Submits Resignation to President Bush
Aired November 15, 2004 - 10:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's a pop quiz for you.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: OK, first of all let's go with the top liner, obviously, is Secretary of State Colin Powell offering up his letter of resignation, and then we have the education secretary Rod Paige, who is also leaving the administration. And then we have Spencer Abraham, who is the energy secretary who is leaving, and the Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman, who is also leaving. So there you are.
KAGAN: And for our viewers that are watching around the world, if they're looking at this as a major shakeup, we should note that this is an administration that had very little turnover in the first term, and that it's surprising that some of these people who have done their public service would choose now to move on to do other things.
HARRIS: Yes, you're absolutely right.
And if you go back to last week, Attorney General John Ashcroft announcing that he is leaving as well. So you know, we expected a lot of this turnover. Maybe some of the names might be a little bit surprising, and some of the timing may be a little bit surprising, but we knew that there would be changes in the second Bush administration term.
We want to talk a little bit more now about Colin Powell with his biographer Howard Means.
And, Howard, are you there on the phone with us?
HOWARD MEANS, POWELL BIOGRAPHER: I am, yes.
HARRIS: Are you surprised at all -- well, maybe not surprised by the announcement overall, but maybe the timing?
MEANS: Not really. I had expected him perhaps to go a month or two into the new administration. But you got to remember that Powell's a soldier at heart, and it's a tour of duty, and the tour of duty is up. The more I thought about it, well, if he re-upped, he'd re-up for four years because that's the next four of duty and I don't think he had any desire to do that.
HARRIS: Why is the tour up, in your opinion?
MEANS: I'm sorry, say what?
HARRIS: Why is this the tour up in your opinion? MEANS: Well, just because it's a new administration, the end of the term. And I think he tends to think in terms of tours of duty, and a tour runs the length of the administration.
HARRIS: Howard, you know what I'm trying to get to -- I'm trying to get to why you think now. I mean, this is, in essence the same president, the second administration of this president. So why now? Why is it -- why is he calling it quits now?
MEANS: Why now? Because, I mean, think it's been a very unhappy four years for Colin Powell generally, and I think he would have loved if it were a two-year tour of duty instead of a four year tour of duty, and he could have gotten out two years ago.
Also, if you look, I think over the course of the last 12 to 16 months, certainly over the course of the last year, he's been trying to get himself on the right side of history in a way with the testimony before the U.N. He's been publicly and privately backing away from that. I think he's been sort of setting stage for this. And there is at least good news in Iran today, so he can leave on a good note there. You know, it's a natural time for him to go.
HARRIS: And, Howard, take me back to February of 2003 and that presentation at the U.N., before the U.N. Security Council. How much of a taint will that presentation be on his legacy and the way we think of him?
MEANS: I think in the -- for the time being it's quite a taint actually. I mean, it's amazing the number of people I talk to who still aren't over that presentation. These are just laypeople, not political people, just talk to me because I wrote a biography of him. I think that, you know, I think history will treat Colin better over the course -- I think once the history of this war is written, a good history is written, there will be a lot of people who realize that if the president had stuck with the Powell doctrine instead of Rumsfeld's (INAUDIBLE) force concept, if he'd gotten overwhelming ground support before going in to Iraq, overwhelming international coalition in support of it, that we'd be a heck of a lot better off now.
So I think while Colin lost all the battles, a lot of the major battles with regard to Iraq, history will treat him a little better.
HARRIS: I think, Howard, part of the reason, if I could offer this, is that people still talk about that presentation, is because a lot of folks, he is a figure with such credibility. I mean, this is a man who would be president, and he has such a well of good capital in this country right now, and there was a sense that he was -- either he didn't believe what he was saying, or that he was roped into what he was saying. And I apologize for the choice of words there. But what do you think about that?
MEANS: He was ordered by his commander in chief to give a presentation. I think he gave it his best shot, and I think he deeply regrets not having vetted the material better. But I think, again, if you look at his pronouncements, his argument has been that he was had, and basically that he was used. You know, you can only vet so much before you go up there; you've got to trust somebody along the line. And I think he gave it his best shot to vet the material in the time he had. He had orders from the commander in chief to deliver the presentation.
And so you know, it's definitely -- it definitely is a blot on his reputation, there's no getting around it. But you know, that I think might fade a little bit in the long run, and some of the better things will come forward.
HARRIS: We're not writing him off. I mean, he still has a whole another chapter in his life ahead of him, but give us a sense of this remarkable life as it stands now, taking us all the way back to the Bronx and sort of bringing it full circle, if you would for us.
MEANS: Sure. It's a wonderful American story. It's, you know, immigrant parents, you know, his dad was a shipping clerk, his mom did peace work at home. And his sister and Colin have both made, you know, college educations, did wonderful things in life.
You've got to remember that this is the first African-American who I think seriously was talked about by white Americans as a presidential candidate. If you go back to the polling in 1996 when the fervor was highest actually, the numbers were pretty spectacular in Powell's case. They were always a little bit spongy, and I think Colin appreciated that. He always ran highest among white Southern males. And whether white Southern males would have voted for him in the same numbers that they told pollsters they would, I'm just not sure about that. But wait a minute, pretty remarkable story when you get around to it.
HARRIS: Yes. Howard Means, Colin Powell's biographer, thanks for taking the time to talk to us. We appreciate it.
MEANS: My pleasure. Take care.
KAGAN: Once again a very busy day at the White House. Not one, two, three, four members of the cabinet, Bush cabinet, saying thank you very much, they are moving on. Our Suzanne Malveaux, and there you see the picture of the Secretary of State Colin Powell, Education Secretary Rod Paige, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, and the last one we heard about today, the Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman has turned in her letter of resignation.
Suzanne Malveaux at the White House to kind of put this in perspective. It seems like so much on one day, and yet, here in the first term, we really have not seen a lot of turnover in this administration.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well certainly, as you know, while loyalty is a premium when it comes to this administration. But of course we did expect there would be some waves of resignations. We were told that. But this is quite a number of resignations for one day. The White House saying they're going to put out a statement later today. They're also going to release those letters of resignation that were submitted to the president. We are told not to necessarily expect an event from the president, but rather distributing those letters and explaining perhaps a little bit more detail in the press briefing in a couple of hours or so.
Now here's what we know, talking with senior administration officials, they say that when it comes to Secretary Powell, these are discussions that he had with the president in the last couple of months, that he was making his wishes known, that he did not want to stay. Privately, of course, we know that Powell had been talking about this for some time. It was on Friday that he officially sent over his letter of resignation, and then it was this morning about 8:30 when he announced it to his senior staff, then came over to the White House to meet with the president, and then shortly after that is when the news leaked.
Now as you know, of course, there are other resignations. Powell's being the most significant, however, but also Secretary of Education Rod Paige. He is the first African-American to hold that post. He is a former Houston school superintendent, most notably known for pushing for that legislation, the "no child left behind" legislation, somewhat controversial as well. He did have a couple of bumps in the road in his own administration when he called the National Education Association a terrorist organization, the teachers union, for fighting that law, that legislation. He later apologized for that remark.
Also, of course, Secretary of Energy Spence Abraham. He used to be a big advocate when it comes to free trade, most notably really faced a lot of frustration with Congress. The president trying very hard to push forward his energy legislation, really did not get very far. Spence Abraham used to be the former deputy chief of staff to Vice President Dan Quayle, and also of course was a former senator for Michigan.
And then finally, of course, Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman. She was the first woman to head this department. She also served that post for California before her term. She also submitting her letter of resignation. A lot of buzz about possible names of replacing Secretary Powell, including National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, including Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Elliot Abrams (ph), one of the president's top advisers, all of those names being put out there. But we know that these four individuals will not be serving a second term. We know they'll all be serving until they find replacements for them. We know Powell at least will be staying on until January. We're also told not to expect any announcements about those replacements today.
KAGAN: And, Suzanne, real quickly before we let you go here, the big news over the weekend before all the resignations were handed in, the health of vice president Dick Cheney. He took a trip to the hospital over the weekend. What's the latest on the vice president today?
MALVEAUX: Well, actually his cardiologist said he is fine, that it might have been a viral upper-respiratory infection that he was suffering from, that it was not a cause to worry about his heart. As you know, of course, there was a lot of concern about that. He went to George Washington Hospital over the weekend after complaining about shortness of breath at his home. He was taken there. He was not admitted. He went through some tests, some blood tests, an EKG, some other things, and then his doctor came out and said that he was fine.
Of course, a lot of the concern, however, this is a man that you know has had a history of heart problems, four heart attacks. The first one when he was only 37 years old. But for the last couple of years he has gotten a clean bill of health.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thank you for that. A lot of news coming out of that building.
HARRIS: Should we recap this?
KAGAN: Let's start.
So Vice President Dick Cheney is OK.
HARRIS: Yes, he's fine.
KAGAN: Now we get to the resignations that come in today, four of them.
HARRIS: A list of resignations, letters handed in today. Agriculture secretary Ann Veneman is saying goodbye; Secretary of State Colin Powell, which is the big news of the morning; Rod Paige, who is the education secretary; and Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, all of these people have handed in their letters of resignation and will be moving on.
And the White House has said don't expect any names to come out today of possible nominees or replacements. But in a town like Washington speculation will begin.
HARRIS: There's a lot for this president to do between now and January for a second inaugural.
KAGAN: Absolutely. We'll be tracking it. A lot more news ahead. Right now, we'll take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to CNN LIVE TODAY. I'm Daryn Kagan, along with Tony Harris.
HARRIS: Well, it is a busy, busy morning, Daryn. And to recap it just briefly for you, we have four resignations in the bush administration this morning, and there are the men and women who are leaving this administration, topped by Secretary of State Colin Powell. And when a secretary of state moves on, particularly this secretary of state, it ripples throughout the government.
We want to bring in our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr, who covers the Pentagon for us.
And, Barbara, we know that Secretary Powell was a former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. I'm wondering if there was any reaction from the Pentagon this morning. BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Tony. This man is still an iconic figure in the hallways of the Pentagon. The troops really do revere him, even though he hasn't served as chairman, of course, in many years now.
In fact, I was just speaking on the phone to an Army general who would have been a young officer during the first Gulf War when Colin Powell was the chairman. That Army general saying, just make sure the secretary knows his troops still love him, referring to Secretary Powell.
You know, the whole Iraq war, though, has been somewhat of a strain between the Pentagon and the State Department. Both departments, very strong men leading, and very powerful figures. Secretary Powell and Secretary Rumsfeld here at the Pentagon, and there certainly have been some clashes over Iraq policy. Secretary Powell, by all accounts, being very concerned that when the war began, that the U.S. military was going in heavy enough, with enough troops. His concerns were, shall we say, rebuffed a bit. You know, he was told by all accounts he was out of the military business, he was in the diplomatic business.
And a lot of strain between the two departments since major combat ended about rebuilding and reconstruction. Which department would be in charge of that? Who would handle the contracting, all of that? Those issues still remain largely on the table, largely unresolved many months later, but for the soldiers, for the troops, Colin Powell remains a figure that they feel very close to.
HARRIS: And, Barbara, that is saying something. I have to ask you, for so many people watching this morning, they're probably amazed, and maybe you can put some context on this, as to how it is a man like Colin Powell, with his resume, beloved by his troops, as you just mentioned, is rebuffed in key policy decisions with regard to war and peace?
STARR: Hard to say. But when you read the tea leaves, this is an administration that has a national security team, that is one that we all know develops a plan, a policy, stays on that message, and doesn't really tolerate a lot of dissenting voices. That's not an opinion. That is a fact that they all have testified to. Colin Powell came to the table with some other opinions.
Now let's just look at his military resume. As the chairman during the first Gulf War when the policy, the strategy was very different, a massive buildup of ground troops, that's how he and General Norman Schwarzkopf prosecuted Operation Desert Storm some 12 years ago or so.
Now, a different policy: transformation, lighter, mobile, lightning fast strikes, more use of air power, something that was very, very different. Colin Powell is the general who articulated the use of decisive force. Many people read that perhaps to mean overwhelming ground force, though that was not what Colin Powell was necessarily talking about. So it opened the door to a lot of continuing criticism, even 18 months later, about the initial Iraq strategy. Enough troops, heavy enough, did the U.S. go in with enough firepower as this insurgency has developed over many months? That has been a continuing question, Tony.
HARRIS: You know, Barbara, I have to ask you. We know that the resignation letter was offered up on Friday. Everyone has had a weekend to sort of digest this. Are you a little surprised that there has been no official statement from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld?
STARR: Well, the secretary currently is in fact traveling in Central and South America. When there is an official statement, there's every reason to expect it will be very gracious, very warm as these things are officially done in Washington. But now the shuffling begins. People looking to see who will be next, and who will be next in the State Department, and perhaps in the Pentagon, in the all- important second layer. The very senior aides to these cabinet secretaries.
At this point, no indication that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is going anywhere. But what is not being said yet is whether all of his key aides will stay. And that all-important senior level of bureaucracy in both departments is most likely to shift depending on who becomes the next secretary of state.
One of the questions will be whether the so-called hawks, if you will, will be fully in charge in both departments and at the National Security Council when the dust settles, Tony.
HARRIS: Oh, Barbara, interesting days indeed. Thank you, Barbara Starr, reporting for us from the Pentagon. We are going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we will update our top story, the resignation Secretary of State Colin Powell and three other members of the Bush cabinet. We'll take a break and be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
KAGAN: A lot of news happening today, most of it coming out of the White House. We'll get back to the resignation of Colin Powell and three other key members stepping down. That's coming up, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired November 15, 2004 - 10:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's a pop quiz for you.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: OK, first of all let's go with the top liner, obviously, is Secretary of State Colin Powell offering up his letter of resignation, and then we have the education secretary Rod Paige, who is also leaving the administration. And then we have Spencer Abraham, who is the energy secretary who is leaving, and the Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman, who is also leaving. So there you are.
KAGAN: And for our viewers that are watching around the world, if they're looking at this as a major shakeup, we should note that this is an administration that had very little turnover in the first term, and that it's surprising that some of these people who have done their public service would choose now to move on to do other things.
HARRIS: Yes, you're absolutely right.
And if you go back to last week, Attorney General John Ashcroft announcing that he is leaving as well. So you know, we expected a lot of this turnover. Maybe some of the names might be a little bit surprising, and some of the timing may be a little bit surprising, but we knew that there would be changes in the second Bush administration term.
We want to talk a little bit more now about Colin Powell with his biographer Howard Means.
And, Howard, are you there on the phone with us?
HOWARD MEANS, POWELL BIOGRAPHER: I am, yes.
HARRIS: Are you surprised at all -- well, maybe not surprised by the announcement overall, but maybe the timing?
MEANS: Not really. I had expected him perhaps to go a month or two into the new administration. But you got to remember that Powell's a soldier at heart, and it's a tour of duty, and the tour of duty is up. The more I thought about it, well, if he re-upped, he'd re-up for four years because that's the next four of duty and I don't think he had any desire to do that.
HARRIS: Why is the tour up, in your opinion?
MEANS: I'm sorry, say what?
HARRIS: Why is this the tour up in your opinion? MEANS: Well, just because it's a new administration, the end of the term. And I think he tends to think in terms of tours of duty, and a tour runs the length of the administration.
HARRIS: Howard, you know what I'm trying to get to -- I'm trying to get to why you think now. I mean, this is, in essence the same president, the second administration of this president. So why now? Why is it -- why is he calling it quits now?
MEANS: Why now? Because, I mean, think it's been a very unhappy four years for Colin Powell generally, and I think he would have loved if it were a two-year tour of duty instead of a four year tour of duty, and he could have gotten out two years ago.
Also, if you look, I think over the course of the last 12 to 16 months, certainly over the course of the last year, he's been trying to get himself on the right side of history in a way with the testimony before the U.N. He's been publicly and privately backing away from that. I think he's been sort of setting stage for this. And there is at least good news in Iran today, so he can leave on a good note there. You know, it's a natural time for him to go.
HARRIS: And, Howard, take me back to February of 2003 and that presentation at the U.N., before the U.N. Security Council. How much of a taint will that presentation be on his legacy and the way we think of him?
MEANS: I think in the -- for the time being it's quite a taint actually. I mean, it's amazing the number of people I talk to who still aren't over that presentation. These are just laypeople, not political people, just talk to me because I wrote a biography of him. I think that, you know, I think history will treat Colin better over the course -- I think once the history of this war is written, a good history is written, there will be a lot of people who realize that if the president had stuck with the Powell doctrine instead of Rumsfeld's (INAUDIBLE) force concept, if he'd gotten overwhelming ground support before going in to Iraq, overwhelming international coalition in support of it, that we'd be a heck of a lot better off now.
So I think while Colin lost all the battles, a lot of the major battles with regard to Iraq, history will treat him a little better.
HARRIS: I think, Howard, part of the reason, if I could offer this, is that people still talk about that presentation, is because a lot of folks, he is a figure with such credibility. I mean, this is a man who would be president, and he has such a well of good capital in this country right now, and there was a sense that he was -- either he didn't believe what he was saying, or that he was roped into what he was saying. And I apologize for the choice of words there. But what do you think about that?
MEANS: He was ordered by his commander in chief to give a presentation. I think he gave it his best shot, and I think he deeply regrets not having vetted the material better. But I think, again, if you look at his pronouncements, his argument has been that he was had, and basically that he was used. You know, you can only vet so much before you go up there; you've got to trust somebody along the line. And I think he gave it his best shot to vet the material in the time he had. He had orders from the commander in chief to deliver the presentation.
And so you know, it's definitely -- it definitely is a blot on his reputation, there's no getting around it. But you know, that I think might fade a little bit in the long run, and some of the better things will come forward.
HARRIS: We're not writing him off. I mean, he still has a whole another chapter in his life ahead of him, but give us a sense of this remarkable life as it stands now, taking us all the way back to the Bronx and sort of bringing it full circle, if you would for us.
MEANS: Sure. It's a wonderful American story. It's, you know, immigrant parents, you know, his dad was a shipping clerk, his mom did peace work at home. And his sister and Colin have both made, you know, college educations, did wonderful things in life.
You've got to remember that this is the first African-American who I think seriously was talked about by white Americans as a presidential candidate. If you go back to the polling in 1996 when the fervor was highest actually, the numbers were pretty spectacular in Powell's case. They were always a little bit spongy, and I think Colin appreciated that. He always ran highest among white Southern males. And whether white Southern males would have voted for him in the same numbers that they told pollsters they would, I'm just not sure about that. But wait a minute, pretty remarkable story when you get around to it.
HARRIS: Yes. Howard Means, Colin Powell's biographer, thanks for taking the time to talk to us. We appreciate it.
MEANS: My pleasure. Take care.
KAGAN: Once again a very busy day at the White House. Not one, two, three, four members of the cabinet, Bush cabinet, saying thank you very much, they are moving on. Our Suzanne Malveaux, and there you see the picture of the Secretary of State Colin Powell, Education Secretary Rod Paige, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, and the last one we heard about today, the Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman has turned in her letter of resignation.
Suzanne Malveaux at the White House to kind of put this in perspective. It seems like so much on one day, and yet, here in the first term, we really have not seen a lot of turnover in this administration.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well certainly, as you know, while loyalty is a premium when it comes to this administration. But of course we did expect there would be some waves of resignations. We were told that. But this is quite a number of resignations for one day. The White House saying they're going to put out a statement later today. They're also going to release those letters of resignation that were submitted to the president. We are told not to necessarily expect an event from the president, but rather distributing those letters and explaining perhaps a little bit more detail in the press briefing in a couple of hours or so.
Now here's what we know, talking with senior administration officials, they say that when it comes to Secretary Powell, these are discussions that he had with the president in the last couple of months, that he was making his wishes known, that he did not want to stay. Privately, of course, we know that Powell had been talking about this for some time. It was on Friday that he officially sent over his letter of resignation, and then it was this morning about 8:30 when he announced it to his senior staff, then came over to the White House to meet with the president, and then shortly after that is when the news leaked.
Now as you know, of course, there are other resignations. Powell's being the most significant, however, but also Secretary of Education Rod Paige. He is the first African-American to hold that post. He is a former Houston school superintendent, most notably known for pushing for that legislation, the "no child left behind" legislation, somewhat controversial as well. He did have a couple of bumps in the road in his own administration when he called the National Education Association a terrorist organization, the teachers union, for fighting that law, that legislation. He later apologized for that remark.
Also, of course, Secretary of Energy Spence Abraham. He used to be a big advocate when it comes to free trade, most notably really faced a lot of frustration with Congress. The president trying very hard to push forward his energy legislation, really did not get very far. Spence Abraham used to be the former deputy chief of staff to Vice President Dan Quayle, and also of course was a former senator for Michigan.
And then finally, of course, Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman. She was the first woman to head this department. She also served that post for California before her term. She also submitting her letter of resignation. A lot of buzz about possible names of replacing Secretary Powell, including National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, including Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Elliot Abrams (ph), one of the president's top advisers, all of those names being put out there. But we know that these four individuals will not be serving a second term. We know they'll all be serving until they find replacements for them. We know Powell at least will be staying on until January. We're also told not to expect any announcements about those replacements today.
KAGAN: And, Suzanne, real quickly before we let you go here, the big news over the weekend before all the resignations were handed in, the health of vice president Dick Cheney. He took a trip to the hospital over the weekend. What's the latest on the vice president today?
MALVEAUX: Well, actually his cardiologist said he is fine, that it might have been a viral upper-respiratory infection that he was suffering from, that it was not a cause to worry about his heart. As you know, of course, there was a lot of concern about that. He went to George Washington Hospital over the weekend after complaining about shortness of breath at his home. He was taken there. He was not admitted. He went through some tests, some blood tests, an EKG, some other things, and then his doctor came out and said that he was fine.
Of course, a lot of the concern, however, this is a man that you know has had a history of heart problems, four heart attacks. The first one when he was only 37 years old. But for the last couple of years he has gotten a clean bill of health.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thank you for that. A lot of news coming out of that building.
HARRIS: Should we recap this?
KAGAN: Let's start.
So Vice President Dick Cheney is OK.
HARRIS: Yes, he's fine.
KAGAN: Now we get to the resignations that come in today, four of them.
HARRIS: A list of resignations, letters handed in today. Agriculture secretary Ann Veneman is saying goodbye; Secretary of State Colin Powell, which is the big news of the morning; Rod Paige, who is the education secretary; and Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, all of these people have handed in their letters of resignation and will be moving on.
And the White House has said don't expect any names to come out today of possible nominees or replacements. But in a town like Washington speculation will begin.
HARRIS: There's a lot for this president to do between now and January for a second inaugural.
KAGAN: Absolutely. We'll be tracking it. A lot more news ahead. Right now, we'll take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to CNN LIVE TODAY. I'm Daryn Kagan, along with Tony Harris.
HARRIS: Well, it is a busy, busy morning, Daryn. And to recap it just briefly for you, we have four resignations in the bush administration this morning, and there are the men and women who are leaving this administration, topped by Secretary of State Colin Powell. And when a secretary of state moves on, particularly this secretary of state, it ripples throughout the government.
We want to bring in our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr, who covers the Pentagon for us.
And, Barbara, we know that Secretary Powell was a former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. I'm wondering if there was any reaction from the Pentagon this morning. BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Tony. This man is still an iconic figure in the hallways of the Pentagon. The troops really do revere him, even though he hasn't served as chairman, of course, in many years now.
In fact, I was just speaking on the phone to an Army general who would have been a young officer during the first Gulf War when Colin Powell was the chairman. That Army general saying, just make sure the secretary knows his troops still love him, referring to Secretary Powell.
You know, the whole Iraq war, though, has been somewhat of a strain between the Pentagon and the State Department. Both departments, very strong men leading, and very powerful figures. Secretary Powell and Secretary Rumsfeld here at the Pentagon, and there certainly have been some clashes over Iraq policy. Secretary Powell, by all accounts, being very concerned that when the war began, that the U.S. military was going in heavy enough, with enough troops. His concerns were, shall we say, rebuffed a bit. You know, he was told by all accounts he was out of the military business, he was in the diplomatic business.
And a lot of strain between the two departments since major combat ended about rebuilding and reconstruction. Which department would be in charge of that? Who would handle the contracting, all of that? Those issues still remain largely on the table, largely unresolved many months later, but for the soldiers, for the troops, Colin Powell remains a figure that they feel very close to.
HARRIS: And, Barbara, that is saying something. I have to ask you, for so many people watching this morning, they're probably amazed, and maybe you can put some context on this, as to how it is a man like Colin Powell, with his resume, beloved by his troops, as you just mentioned, is rebuffed in key policy decisions with regard to war and peace?
STARR: Hard to say. But when you read the tea leaves, this is an administration that has a national security team, that is one that we all know develops a plan, a policy, stays on that message, and doesn't really tolerate a lot of dissenting voices. That's not an opinion. That is a fact that they all have testified to. Colin Powell came to the table with some other opinions.
Now let's just look at his military resume. As the chairman during the first Gulf War when the policy, the strategy was very different, a massive buildup of ground troops, that's how he and General Norman Schwarzkopf prosecuted Operation Desert Storm some 12 years ago or so.
Now, a different policy: transformation, lighter, mobile, lightning fast strikes, more use of air power, something that was very, very different. Colin Powell is the general who articulated the use of decisive force. Many people read that perhaps to mean overwhelming ground force, though that was not what Colin Powell was necessarily talking about. So it opened the door to a lot of continuing criticism, even 18 months later, about the initial Iraq strategy. Enough troops, heavy enough, did the U.S. go in with enough firepower as this insurgency has developed over many months? That has been a continuing question, Tony.
HARRIS: You know, Barbara, I have to ask you. We know that the resignation letter was offered up on Friday. Everyone has had a weekend to sort of digest this. Are you a little surprised that there has been no official statement from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld?
STARR: Well, the secretary currently is in fact traveling in Central and South America. When there is an official statement, there's every reason to expect it will be very gracious, very warm as these things are officially done in Washington. But now the shuffling begins. People looking to see who will be next, and who will be next in the State Department, and perhaps in the Pentagon, in the all- important second layer. The very senior aides to these cabinet secretaries.
At this point, no indication that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is going anywhere. But what is not being said yet is whether all of his key aides will stay. And that all-important senior level of bureaucracy in both departments is most likely to shift depending on who becomes the next secretary of state.
One of the questions will be whether the so-called hawks, if you will, will be fully in charge in both departments and at the National Security Council when the dust settles, Tony.
HARRIS: Oh, Barbara, interesting days indeed. Thank you, Barbara Starr, reporting for us from the Pentagon. We are going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we will update our top story, the resignation Secretary of State Colin Powell and three other members of the Bush cabinet. We'll take a break and be right back.
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KAGAN: A lot of news happening today, most of it coming out of the White House. We'll get back to the resignation of Colin Powell and three other key members stepping down. That's coming up, after this.
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