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Secretary of State Powell & 3 Other Cabinet Members Resign from the Bush Administration
Aired November 15, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: We will get to all the breaking news. All the changes around the Bush administration, and as Heidi was mentioning, there's one who we're still waiting to hear, who No. 4 will be. And we'll be covering a bit the significance and who might come next. Right now though, let's take a look at what's happening now in the news.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: As you just heard Secretary of State Colin Powell has submitted his resignation to President Bush. State Department officials say Powell has agreed to stay on until a replacement is confirmed. Suzanne Malveaux is standing by at the White House with a live report on this developing story.
Under cover of heavy air strikes and artillery fire, U.S. troops combed the dangerous streets of Falluja for die-hard insurgents. So far, 38 Americans have lost their lives in the battle, 275 have been wounded. We have a live report from Baghdad. And from Landstuhl, Germany firsthand accounts of the action from wounded Marines now getting medical care.
The International Atomic Energy Agency says Iran has not used any of its declared nuclear material for military purposes. However, questions remain about its undeclared activities. Iran has agreed to suspend its uranium enrichment program. The IAEA inspectors will head to Iran to verify that commitment. Several countries worry Iran could be building a nuclear arsenal.
A meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops gets under way today in Washington. The bishops will choose a replacement for the outgoing President Bishop Wilton Gregory. Gregory led America's Catholic church over the last three years, as it dealt with devastating sexual abuse scandal and the subsequent lawsuits.
And good morning once again, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.
KAGAN: And I'm Daryn Kagan. Thanks for sitting in for Rick Sanchez, who we just saw is up in New York City.
HARRIS: My pleasure. Good to be with you.
KAGAN: Musical chairs. Welcome to our show.
Let's get right to the breaking news now. A popular member of President Bush's cabinet made it official this morning. Secretary of State Colin Powell announcing he is stepping down. Details on this developing story now from CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, along with the other letters of resignation that have been handed in today.
Suzanne, good morning.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn. It's going to be a very busy morning here at the White House. White House press secretary Scott McClellan saying that there are going to be announcements about four individual resignations here. Not all of them perhaps cabinet level, but certainly high-level officials. Of course a headline here, Secretary of State Colin Powell who submitted his letter of resignation on Friday.
Now, I just spoke with a senior administration official very much aware of how this all developed. He said that Secretary Powell and the president have been talking about this for the last two months. Powell's desire to actually leave the White House the second term. It was not until Friday that he actually submitted his letter, after both of the men agreed it was in the best interest of the future of the country, it was the best interest and Powell as well as the president for Powell to move on.
Now, we are told that this morning was about 8:30 or so, that is when Powell met with his senior staff. He told them the news. Then he came over here to the White House to meet with the president. We expect that we'll get more details about all of this as they announce these resignations throughout the day.
But as you as you know, of course, this was not necessarily unexpected. This is something that he has talked about privately to many people, to his close staff. To his close friends, that he was not interested in a second term. Of course, President Bush actually wanted him to stay on. But this was an ongoing process, months of talks, and finally these two men came to agreement.
Now in terms of the other resignations, senior administration officials tell me that at least we know of two others, one Secretary of Education Rod Paige. That has been a reported widely over the weekend, confirmed by our sources on Friday. That is also expected to be announced, as well as Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. That is another one that I have been told by senior administration officials will also be announced.
Of course, that leaves one left. We're not exactly sure who that is. But there is a lot of talk, a lot of speculation about National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice; that she is at least in the running for perhaps Powell's job. We don't know whether or not we're going to get announcement on that.
We have been told by Scott McClellan, however, that all of the individuals who announced their resignations today with their letters that will be presented to us, will stay on until the replacements are found. We are also told, as well, that none of those replacements will be announced today -- Daryn. KAGAN: Yes. And so the White House saying that no nominees or potential nominees announced. But Suzanne, you can't work in the business and not hear some of the names swirling around. What are some of the possible names, besides Condoleezza Rice, that might be interested in that secretary of state position?
MALVEAUX: We're also hearing Elliot Abrams, an adviser to the president is being another one. We're hearing, of course, that Condoleezza Rice being the top pick here. There's a lot of speculation because, of course, she's expressed a desire to go back to California. As you know she was the provost at Standford. And but at the same time, there's been a lot of talk about the president really wanting to keep her on this team.
But as you know, Secretary Powell, this is very big news. He is really one of the central players when it comes to shaping foreign policy. And this is going to make quite an impact on the next administration.
KAGAN: And kind of overshadowing the other two announcements. The significance of those, Rod Paige and Spencer Abraham, please.
MALVEAUX: Well, Rod Paige, as you know, he's the secretary of education. It's not surprising that he is planning on stepping down. We're expected to see his letter of resignation shortly. This is an individual who made his name on the legislation, the No Child Left Behind legislation pushing that through in a bipartisan effort.
He has also come under some criticism, some fire, a controversy during his term for calling the country's largest teacher's union a terrorist organization for fighting that legislation. He later apologized about that. But that group called for his resignation earlier. But we're told that he is very pleased, very satisfied that he is going to be leaving; the president having no problems with that, as well. Very proud of his work.
Also, of course, you have the Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. Now, this is someone who was advocating free trade. But also, there was quite a bit of difficulty the administration had in pushing forward its energy policy through Congress. The president has been very frustrated with that. Part of the reason why, however, is a lot of the controversy over some of those wildlife preserves and how that has fit in to that legislation. Many people opposing that -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux. I think you said it best; it's going to be a busy day at the White House today. We'll cut you loose, let you do a little bit more work, and we'll be back to you. Thank you -- Tony.
HARRIS: And Daryn, Elise Labott is our State Department producer. And Elise is on the phone with us.
Good morning, Elise.
ELISE LABOTT, CNN STATE DEPT. PRODUCER: Good morning, Tony. HARRIS: Well, Elise, give us a sense of how this all shook out. When did Secretary of State Powell inform his staff?
LABOTT: Well, Secretary of State Powell informed his staff this morning that he would be leaving at the end of this administration when a new secretary of state was named and confirmed. Administration officials are telling John King and other CNN correspondents that the president and the secretary of state agreed last week that this would occur.
According to some administration officials, the secretary wanted to stay a few months, maybe one to three months to advance some of the priorities in the administration. You have Iraq elections coming up. Now with the passing of Yasser Arafat, a lot in the Bush administration feel that there is a chance to advance Middle East peace process. So secretary of state did want to complete some of the priorities on the agenda, but the president thought that it was time for him to step down as soon as a new successor was named and in place.
But secretary of state told his staff this morning that he would be stepping down. And but according to his aides he'll be working right until the last day to advance some of those priorities later in the week. He'll be going to Egypt, Sharm el-Sheikh for a conference for the -- on the Iraq election. And State Department officials are saying that now perhaps with the passing of Yasser Arafat, Powell will try to arrange a meeting with the new Palestinian leadership. So definitely a lot on his agenda in the remaining two months of the administration -- Tony.
HARRIS: Hey, Elise. Give us a sense of what might have happened here. I mean for a lot of folks, Secretary of State Powell would seem to be the perfect man to guide us through all of these sort of uncertain waters right now. And you mentioned all of the things that are certainly on the plate for the next secretary of state. What do you think happened here?
LABOTT: Well, it's been widely speculated, in fact some would call it the conventional wisdom that the secretary of state has had enough. That he would be stepping down after the next administration. There were some indications later, right after the election that he might want to stay. But the president has a new cabinet. He wants to advance a new agenda according to many administration officials. And it would be time for Secretary of State Powell to step aside, let a new secretary of state come in and try and advance that agenda for the president.
Secretary of state was credited with really rising morale at the State Department.
HARRIS: Yes.
LABOTT: The morale at the State Department was pretty low after Secretary of State Albright left. And so, he is really beloved in the State Department. Certainly there are going to be a lot of people at the State Department that will be very disarmed to see him go. Others in the administration felt that he was at odds with many other members of the administration, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, Vice President Cheney on occasion.
And so, it looks like the president wants to have a clean break, a clean start, start with a new cabinet. As Suzanne Malveaux just said, several other members of the cabinet just left. So we'll just have to wait and see how it all shakes out -- Tony.
HARRIS: Elise, how badly do you think the secretary of state might have tarnished his legacy, his good stature, with that presentation of February 2003 before the U.N. Security Council, where he essentially made the case for the administration to go to war in Iraq?
LABOTT: Well, certainly that's a real black stain on his reputation. He himself has said that he regretted some of the things that he said in that presentation. But you have to look at that in a whole series of policies and disagreements with the administration. Secretary Powell often was at odds with other members in the administration. Not only on Iraq and the case to go to war, but also with North Korea. He had from the very beginning advocated a real engagement approach. He also wanted to get more involved in the Middle East. The president had held back a little.
In all of these occasions, secretary of state said his piece. Said, you know, at times to the president privately, I think we should go another way. Sometimes the president went with him in the beginning. Sometimes it would all play out, and then you'd see Secretary Powell's policy being advocated.
Now you see there's a lot of engagement with North Korea. There's a diplomatic means under way to try and resolve this nuclear situation with Iran. But it's to the very end Secretary of State Powell was a good soldier. He really always disagreed with the president privately. Maybe sometimes aides would leak it. But the secretary of state was always seen as a good soldier carrying out the president's policy, whether he did or he did not agree.
So I think one of his legacies would definitely be on being more of a moderate than the administration, really favoring hands-on diplomacy. But at the same time, really being a good soldier and carrying out the president's policy. And that's what he did on that presentation on February 5.
HARRIS: And Elise, let me have you talk a little bit more about how he was able, maybe it was just through his own personal style, we know that he's a very charismatic man. How he was able to turn that State Department around after Madeleine Albright left.
LABOTT: Well, what Madeleine Albright did is she circled herself with a group of very close aides. They were the ones that had the most access to the secretary. She really didn't have all that much interaction with some of the assistant secretaries, the senior managers and the desk officers of the department.
What Secretary Powell did when he came in was he appointed a lot of career Foreign Service officers to top positions. And he really listened to their opinion. He wanted to hear what they said. He would talk to a desk officer. We talked to a desk officer once that said that Secretary Powell called him and wanted to hear what he was saying on a particular issue and then had him brief the president. So what the secretary really rely on the expertise of the department, rely on the Foreign Service.
He really tried to upgrade the technology at the State Department. And so, and also in diplomatic training initiatives. So he really paid a huge homage to the people at the State Department, and tried to listen to their expertise and help them advance the policy. They had much more investment in this secretary of state than they did in previous.
HARRIS: So a lot of it was his personal sort of hands-on approach and style. Elise Labott, we appreciate you taking the time. We'll let you go and do some more work on this story. But stay close. We'll be needing you throughout the morning. We appreciate it.
KAGAN: All right. As U.S. Secretary Of State Colin Powell obviously a man known or known of around the world. Let's see how reaction is filing in from Europe and bring in our Robin Oakley who is standing by in London -- Robin.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN'S EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: Well, Colin Powell was always regarded as the most popular face of the Bush administration in Europe. He had a degree of access to European leaders probably unrivaled among members of the American administration. He was widely respected, had a particularly good working relationship with Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary.
But for all of that, Colin Powell didn't manage to persuade Europeans to get as much involved in Iraq, as he and the administration would have liked them to do. He was not able to persuade many of the other nations involved in NATO to send forces to Iraq for all his personal popularity.
I think what was appreciated, though, particularly with Colin Powell was that he didn't seem to try and play the game of divide and rule in Europe, in the same way that Donald Rumsfeld did, by characterizing old and new Europe. The old Europe countries in Donald Rumsfeld's view being France and Germany. The new Europe countries being those that had recently joined former members of the Soviet Bloc who were particularly grateful to the United States for its past role in humbling the Soviet empire. And therefore who were more inclined to look upon U.S. policy with favor.
Colin Powell didn't play those sort of games. He was always respected as a man who gave the Europeans a straight opinion -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right Robin, I do have a question for you. But we want our viewers to know that we had heard that there were going to be four resignations today. We are now getting the word of the fourth. And that is Ann Veneman, the secretary of agriculture. So it's Ann Veneman, Rod Paige, Spencer Abraham and Colin Powell who are offering their resignations today to the Bush administration. Question for you, Robin, here about Colin Powell and how he's perceived. Interesting point you make about how he had a different tactic. Do you think also Europeans appreciating or liking that at least he was perceived to have more moderate views than some others in the administration?
OAKLEY: Oh, yes. He was certainly seen as the most moderate member of the administration. And somebody who saw things a little bit more as the European politicians tend to do in differing shades of gray, rather than necessarily in sharp -- sharply contrasting shades of black and white. He was also regarded as somebody with a great practical experience when it came to any war situation, obviously with his military background. I think that brought him an extra degree of respect.
He was also seen, I think, as a very courteous member of the administration. I remember particularly at one NATO meeting, where he was engaged by the wife of a cameraman who head been killed probably by friendly fire in the Iraq conflict. And he dealt with her with enormous personal sympathy, and did what he could to get extra information to her. And I think that was very much appreciated not only by diplomats of different countries, but also by the journalists with whom he came into contact on his fairly regular visits to NATO and around European capitals -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Robin, with the death last week of Yasser Arafat, a lot of people around the world seeing this as an opening, as an opportunity perhaps to reach or advance Mideast peace at this time. And a lot of people thinking that Colin Powell would step forward and lead in that. Again he's not leaving until January. But are there other leaders, perhaps other European leads are who might take a role in that?
OAKLEY: Well, I think other European leaders were particularly hoping that Colin Powell would get involved in the Middle East peace process. A revived Middle East peace process. They would have liked to see him even if he was going to give up on the secretary of state position, maybe be some kind of special envoy in the Middle East.
And it was noted how he said that America was going to seize the opportunity presented by the death of Yasser Arafat to get very actively engaged in the Middle East peace process. And I think coming from Colin Powell, that assurance was seized upon very gratefully in Europe, and a lot of notice was taken of that. So there will be disappointment that he is moving on to something different now -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Robin Oakley giving us perspective from London. Robin, thank you for that.
Once again the breaking news, as we were talking to Robin there, the fourth name, the fourth resignation coming in Ann Veneman, the secretary of agriculture. So now we know the four names of cabinet members offering resignations today: Ann Veneman, Rod Paige, Spencer Abraham, and of course, the big name, the big news, Colin Powell.
With more on that now, here's Tony.
HARRIS: OK. Elise Labott is back with us, our CNN State Department producer.
And Elise, let me have you pick up on what Robin was just talking about that Colin Powell was this moderate face, this affable, friendly moderate, but still forceful face for this administration.
LABOTT: Well, certainly when he would speak to the Arabs -- excuse me, the Europeans and the Arabs even, they would think of him as a more moderate voice and they enjoyed talking to him. They thought he listened to their concerns and that he advocated a more hands on, diplomatic approach and that he was a more moderate voice.
One of the complaints among a lot of diplomats that we speak to is they really didn't know whether he was -- whether the administration held that moderate approach. In fact, we see often that they did not. And so sometimes they said we don't know who's speaking. Colin Powell, is he speaking on behalf of the president or is he speaking as a personal person?
And a lot of times they would have to go to other people in the administration to really get their opinion. So they appreciated his moderate voice. But at the same time, they didn't know if he really had the ear of the president. Of course, Secretary Powell and a lot of his close aides would say that he did. But considering the differing approaches, you really never knew.
HARRIS: OK. Elise I'm going to ask you to hold on for just a second. There is still much more to report on this story, of course, as we follow the resignation of Secretary of State Colin Powell and a host of others in the Bush administration.
KAGAN: Four on this Monday. What a way to kick off the week. We're going to cover much more on Colin Powell as well as the other resignations. And there's still a lot of other news out there.
HARRIS: Absolutely.
KAGAN: And we'll get to all of that after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: OK. Once again, we continue to cover the breaking news. Four resignations in the Bush administration today. Topping that list Secretary of State Colin Powell submitting his resignation. It will become effective in January. Not completely unexpected; the timing perhaps a little bit.
Let's go ahead and bring in Jamie Rubin. He knows the State Department well. He was the spokesperson for former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, joining us from London.
Jamie, always a pleasure to talk to you.
JAMES RUBIN, FMR. ASSIST. SECY. OF STATE: Nice to speak to you, Daryn.
KAGAN: What do you think the biggest impact of Colin Powell stepping away from this job will be?
RUBIN: Well, I think the biggest impact is there is simply no other figure in American politics who had the stature, the credibility in Washington and the respect internationally who could be reasonably called a moderate in terms of their outlook.
Let's face it, Colin Powell had candor, he had wisdom and he had integrity.
Candor we saw when things weren't going well in Iraq in the last several months. He was pretty much the only member of the administration who acknowledged that the situation was deteriorating, that the fighting on the ground was taking its toll.
And on integrity, he actually cared about his presentation to the world when it came to weapons of mass destruction last February. He went over the material very carefully. He threw out a lot of material that would argue for a massive threat from Iraq that other administration figures, like Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, were using every day to suggest that this was an urgent threat.
And on wisdom, clearly Colin Powell was the only voice in the Bush administration who recognized the need to go slowly and carefully when it came to invading Iraq, to build up an international coalition if possible, and to get that coalition to support us for the hard work, for the famous quote that he, probably to the regret of the Pottery Barn store, was put out there when he said, "If you break it, you own it."
So he understood that. He understood the importance of the Middle East peace process as part of the way to not only tamp down violence in the Middle East, but to bring respect to the United States.
He understood in ways the others didn't that it was extremely important to try to negotiate a solution to the North Korea problem.
So in all of these areas, pretty much the sweep, including U.S./China relations, of American foreign policy, Colin Powell was a moderate voice. He was a voice of caution and prudence and wisdom.
And because of the respect he had built up internationally, because of the fact that he had the highest approval ratings of perhaps any figure in American politics, he was listened to to an extent.
And there is simply no way we're going to get a replacement for Colin Powell in this administration that will have that credibility behind them. KAGAN: When you say "listened to," do you think in some camps he was listened to more outside the United States than what he was able to influence inside this White House?
RUBIN: Absolutely. That's why I said "to some extent."
I think it's fair to point out that on most of the big battles Colin Powell lost, whether it was the decision to invade Iraq without going through the careful planning needed to have a force able to stabilize and secure Iraq, whether it was the need to build the biggest possible coalition, whether it was the need to come up with realistic negotiating positions with North Korea.
On his first couple of months on the job, he proposed picking up where the previous administration left off in negotiations with North Korea and the president pulled the rug right out from under him and said they were going to review the matter and didn't trust Kim Jong Il.
Also on the Middle East peace process, time and time again, Colin Powell told journalists, told international figures that the Bush administration was going to make Middle East peace-making a top priority. And time and time again the administration decided that it was wiser to let the parties deal with it themselves and to keep the United States out of it.
So I accept the fact that his moderating influence wasn't always successful. But I think that still means that whoever replaces Colin Powell won't have the clout, however limited, that he had.
KAGAN: All right, Jamie, I'm going to have you stand by here. Don't go anywhere. I want to bring in our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield who's standing by in New York City watching this news.
And as I was saying earlier not totally unexpected. We knew it was coming sometime early -- or figured it was coming sometime early in the administration.
Jeff, if you'd pick up on Jamie's remark that here by moderates he is celebrated, Colin Powell, as a moderate voice and yet in most battles he engaged in in this administration did not succeed.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: And that's one of the interesting things will be to see what the reaction to this is from his adversaries, from the voices of what it was called neoconservatism.
Powell has come under fire for being too cautious, for not being willing to take the steps that these folks thought needed to be made not only to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but to change the map of the Middle East. And that was a theory that was one of the reasons why we went to war with Iraq.
So, you know, voices like the Weekly Standard, an influential conservative magazine, who have been at odds with Powell on this, people in the Congress who are strong supporters of the president who may have seen Colin Powell as too cautious -- the very things Jamie Rubin praises, his adversaries saw as liabilities.
So we're not just going to hear the notion that now the Bush administration has lost its most important moderate voice. But I'm really curious to see who Powell's adversaries want to see in that job. Is it a Paul Wolfowitz, who is one of the architects of the idea to go into Iraq? Is it going to be someone from the Congress, somebody who might ease some of those fears, somebody like a Richard Lugar, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as they used to say a known moderate?
But that's one of the things we ought to keep our eye on is where's the reaction from both sides of this divide that has, in fact, divided the Bush administration in its first term.
KAGAN: I want to go ahead and welcome our viewers that are joining us from around the world on CNN International.
Once again, the breaking news: Four members of the Bush Cabinet have handed in their resignation letters today. The top of that list, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Jeff want to bring you back, and then, Jamie get your comment on this, as well.
With the death last week of Yasser Arafat this would seem by some as a key opportunity to make some progress in Middle East peace, at least to reset the table if nothing else. Are you surprised that that, at least, was not enough to keep Colin Powell in the job?
GREENFIELD: I guess question, Daryn, would be when is there not an important international crisis/opportunity/danger on the horizon? The United States, you know, as the one superpower in the world, is involved with just about every region of the world.
And I goes the counterweight to that argument is, if not now, when? On a purely, what may seem -- I don't mean a personal note, but my notion about, you know, opportunities and dangers in the Middle East, I've been reading these headlines since I was old enough to read -- and that does go back a few decades.
So I think it's perfectly understandable that Powell would say, "Look, we're now in the transition to a second administration. It's the logical time for me to leave. If I stay here because Yasser Arafat died, then three months from now I'll have to stay because there's been a new step toward progress or away from progress."
So I can understand why that wouldn't stay his hand if he really was as anxious to leave as we've been hearing.
KAGAN: And, Jamie -- as we bring you in -- one of the splits in this administration is how it's viewed -- how important it is to engage in the Middle East peace process. Those that think that it's not that important, not the top priority, and those as is seen in Europe that it's the key to finding stability not just between the Israelis and Palestinians, but in Iraq and across most of the Middle East. Do you see this as a missed opportunity for Colin Powell?
RUBIN: Well, absolutely.
I mean, Jeff pointed out quite accurately the views of many in the administration who don't look at the Middle East as a situation that is particularly dire right now. They see the current flow of fighting between the Palestinians and the Israelis as inevitable and don't see the real need to engage.
And if you have that mindset, then this particular moment is, you know, only marginally more important than previous moments when Mr. Abbas was named prime minister a year and a half ago.
But I think in Colin Powell's case, he did tell outsiders and Europeans that he really believed and understood the point you made, Daryn, which is that the United States has to engage in the Middle East peace process not just because we are the only country with influence over both parties, but also because the rest of the world expects us to.
They expect us to work this problem. For administration after administration, Republican and Democrat, the American president, the American secretary of state have engaged in the Middle East peace process; some more successful than others.
But that bipartisan tradition is what has been rejected by this administration with an attitude that, you know, the Middle East is never really going to get that much better, the attitude that Jeff just pointed to, and suggesting that it's really up to them to solve these problems.
When Colin Powell looked at this, I suspect he said, "Well, it is an opportunity." But I also believe, from what I've been told, that he has been determined to leave, absent some overwhelming development that required his presence, for about a year now. And all of these rumors and wishful thinking that were coming out that Colin Powell was going to stick around was just that, wishful thinking by moderates, by Europeans and perhaps some journalists who saw him as a good figure to cover.
KAGAN: Jamie Rubin in London, Jeff Greenfield, New York City, gentlemen, thank you very much, commenting on our breaking news. Four, four letters of resignation committed to the Bush...
HARRIS: Should I tick this off?
KAGAN: OK. Go.
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Aired November 15, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: We will get to all the breaking news. All the changes around the Bush administration, and as Heidi was mentioning, there's one who we're still waiting to hear, who No. 4 will be. And we'll be covering a bit the significance and who might come next. Right now though, let's take a look at what's happening now in the news.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: As you just heard Secretary of State Colin Powell has submitted his resignation to President Bush. State Department officials say Powell has agreed to stay on until a replacement is confirmed. Suzanne Malveaux is standing by at the White House with a live report on this developing story.
Under cover of heavy air strikes and artillery fire, U.S. troops combed the dangerous streets of Falluja for die-hard insurgents. So far, 38 Americans have lost their lives in the battle, 275 have been wounded. We have a live report from Baghdad. And from Landstuhl, Germany firsthand accounts of the action from wounded Marines now getting medical care.
The International Atomic Energy Agency says Iran has not used any of its declared nuclear material for military purposes. However, questions remain about its undeclared activities. Iran has agreed to suspend its uranium enrichment program. The IAEA inspectors will head to Iran to verify that commitment. Several countries worry Iran could be building a nuclear arsenal.
A meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops gets under way today in Washington. The bishops will choose a replacement for the outgoing President Bishop Wilton Gregory. Gregory led America's Catholic church over the last three years, as it dealt with devastating sexual abuse scandal and the subsequent lawsuits.
And good morning once again, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.
KAGAN: And I'm Daryn Kagan. Thanks for sitting in for Rick Sanchez, who we just saw is up in New York City.
HARRIS: My pleasure. Good to be with you.
KAGAN: Musical chairs. Welcome to our show.
Let's get right to the breaking news now. A popular member of President Bush's cabinet made it official this morning. Secretary of State Colin Powell announcing he is stepping down. Details on this developing story now from CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, along with the other letters of resignation that have been handed in today.
Suzanne, good morning.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn. It's going to be a very busy morning here at the White House. White House press secretary Scott McClellan saying that there are going to be announcements about four individual resignations here. Not all of them perhaps cabinet level, but certainly high-level officials. Of course a headline here, Secretary of State Colin Powell who submitted his letter of resignation on Friday.
Now, I just spoke with a senior administration official very much aware of how this all developed. He said that Secretary Powell and the president have been talking about this for the last two months. Powell's desire to actually leave the White House the second term. It was not until Friday that he actually submitted his letter, after both of the men agreed it was in the best interest of the future of the country, it was the best interest and Powell as well as the president for Powell to move on.
Now, we are told that this morning was about 8:30 or so, that is when Powell met with his senior staff. He told them the news. Then he came over here to the White House to meet with the president. We expect that we'll get more details about all of this as they announce these resignations throughout the day.
But as you as you know, of course, this was not necessarily unexpected. This is something that he has talked about privately to many people, to his close staff. To his close friends, that he was not interested in a second term. Of course, President Bush actually wanted him to stay on. But this was an ongoing process, months of talks, and finally these two men came to agreement.
Now in terms of the other resignations, senior administration officials tell me that at least we know of two others, one Secretary of Education Rod Paige. That has been a reported widely over the weekend, confirmed by our sources on Friday. That is also expected to be announced, as well as Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. That is another one that I have been told by senior administration officials will also be announced.
Of course, that leaves one left. We're not exactly sure who that is. But there is a lot of talk, a lot of speculation about National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice; that she is at least in the running for perhaps Powell's job. We don't know whether or not we're going to get announcement on that.
We have been told by Scott McClellan, however, that all of the individuals who announced their resignations today with their letters that will be presented to us, will stay on until the replacements are found. We are also told, as well, that none of those replacements will be announced today -- Daryn. KAGAN: Yes. And so the White House saying that no nominees or potential nominees announced. But Suzanne, you can't work in the business and not hear some of the names swirling around. What are some of the possible names, besides Condoleezza Rice, that might be interested in that secretary of state position?
MALVEAUX: We're also hearing Elliot Abrams, an adviser to the president is being another one. We're hearing, of course, that Condoleezza Rice being the top pick here. There's a lot of speculation because, of course, she's expressed a desire to go back to California. As you know she was the provost at Standford. And but at the same time, there's been a lot of talk about the president really wanting to keep her on this team.
But as you know, Secretary Powell, this is very big news. He is really one of the central players when it comes to shaping foreign policy. And this is going to make quite an impact on the next administration.
KAGAN: And kind of overshadowing the other two announcements. The significance of those, Rod Paige and Spencer Abraham, please.
MALVEAUX: Well, Rod Paige, as you know, he's the secretary of education. It's not surprising that he is planning on stepping down. We're expected to see his letter of resignation shortly. This is an individual who made his name on the legislation, the No Child Left Behind legislation pushing that through in a bipartisan effort.
He has also come under some criticism, some fire, a controversy during his term for calling the country's largest teacher's union a terrorist organization for fighting that legislation. He later apologized about that. But that group called for his resignation earlier. But we're told that he is very pleased, very satisfied that he is going to be leaving; the president having no problems with that, as well. Very proud of his work.
Also, of course, you have the Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. Now, this is someone who was advocating free trade. But also, there was quite a bit of difficulty the administration had in pushing forward its energy policy through Congress. The president has been very frustrated with that. Part of the reason why, however, is a lot of the controversy over some of those wildlife preserves and how that has fit in to that legislation. Many people opposing that -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux. I think you said it best; it's going to be a busy day at the White House today. We'll cut you loose, let you do a little bit more work, and we'll be back to you. Thank you -- Tony.
HARRIS: And Daryn, Elise Labott is our State Department producer. And Elise is on the phone with us.
Good morning, Elise.
ELISE LABOTT, CNN STATE DEPT. PRODUCER: Good morning, Tony. HARRIS: Well, Elise, give us a sense of how this all shook out. When did Secretary of State Powell inform his staff?
LABOTT: Well, Secretary of State Powell informed his staff this morning that he would be leaving at the end of this administration when a new secretary of state was named and confirmed. Administration officials are telling John King and other CNN correspondents that the president and the secretary of state agreed last week that this would occur.
According to some administration officials, the secretary wanted to stay a few months, maybe one to three months to advance some of the priorities in the administration. You have Iraq elections coming up. Now with the passing of Yasser Arafat, a lot in the Bush administration feel that there is a chance to advance Middle East peace process. So secretary of state did want to complete some of the priorities on the agenda, but the president thought that it was time for him to step down as soon as a new successor was named and in place.
But secretary of state told his staff this morning that he would be stepping down. And but according to his aides he'll be working right until the last day to advance some of those priorities later in the week. He'll be going to Egypt, Sharm el-Sheikh for a conference for the -- on the Iraq election. And State Department officials are saying that now perhaps with the passing of Yasser Arafat, Powell will try to arrange a meeting with the new Palestinian leadership. So definitely a lot on his agenda in the remaining two months of the administration -- Tony.
HARRIS: Hey, Elise. Give us a sense of what might have happened here. I mean for a lot of folks, Secretary of State Powell would seem to be the perfect man to guide us through all of these sort of uncertain waters right now. And you mentioned all of the things that are certainly on the plate for the next secretary of state. What do you think happened here?
LABOTT: Well, it's been widely speculated, in fact some would call it the conventional wisdom that the secretary of state has had enough. That he would be stepping down after the next administration. There were some indications later, right after the election that he might want to stay. But the president has a new cabinet. He wants to advance a new agenda according to many administration officials. And it would be time for Secretary of State Powell to step aside, let a new secretary of state come in and try and advance that agenda for the president.
Secretary of state was credited with really rising morale at the State Department.
HARRIS: Yes.
LABOTT: The morale at the State Department was pretty low after Secretary of State Albright left. And so, he is really beloved in the State Department. Certainly there are going to be a lot of people at the State Department that will be very disarmed to see him go. Others in the administration felt that he was at odds with many other members of the administration, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, Vice President Cheney on occasion.
And so, it looks like the president wants to have a clean break, a clean start, start with a new cabinet. As Suzanne Malveaux just said, several other members of the cabinet just left. So we'll just have to wait and see how it all shakes out -- Tony.
HARRIS: Elise, how badly do you think the secretary of state might have tarnished his legacy, his good stature, with that presentation of February 2003 before the U.N. Security Council, where he essentially made the case for the administration to go to war in Iraq?
LABOTT: Well, certainly that's a real black stain on his reputation. He himself has said that he regretted some of the things that he said in that presentation. But you have to look at that in a whole series of policies and disagreements with the administration. Secretary Powell often was at odds with other members in the administration. Not only on Iraq and the case to go to war, but also with North Korea. He had from the very beginning advocated a real engagement approach. He also wanted to get more involved in the Middle East. The president had held back a little.
In all of these occasions, secretary of state said his piece. Said, you know, at times to the president privately, I think we should go another way. Sometimes the president went with him in the beginning. Sometimes it would all play out, and then you'd see Secretary Powell's policy being advocated.
Now you see there's a lot of engagement with North Korea. There's a diplomatic means under way to try and resolve this nuclear situation with Iran. But it's to the very end Secretary of State Powell was a good soldier. He really always disagreed with the president privately. Maybe sometimes aides would leak it. But the secretary of state was always seen as a good soldier carrying out the president's policy, whether he did or he did not agree.
So I think one of his legacies would definitely be on being more of a moderate than the administration, really favoring hands-on diplomacy. But at the same time, really being a good soldier and carrying out the president's policy. And that's what he did on that presentation on February 5.
HARRIS: And Elise, let me have you talk a little bit more about how he was able, maybe it was just through his own personal style, we know that he's a very charismatic man. How he was able to turn that State Department around after Madeleine Albright left.
LABOTT: Well, what Madeleine Albright did is she circled herself with a group of very close aides. They were the ones that had the most access to the secretary. She really didn't have all that much interaction with some of the assistant secretaries, the senior managers and the desk officers of the department.
What Secretary Powell did when he came in was he appointed a lot of career Foreign Service officers to top positions. And he really listened to their opinion. He wanted to hear what they said. He would talk to a desk officer. We talked to a desk officer once that said that Secretary Powell called him and wanted to hear what he was saying on a particular issue and then had him brief the president. So what the secretary really rely on the expertise of the department, rely on the Foreign Service.
He really tried to upgrade the technology at the State Department. And so, and also in diplomatic training initiatives. So he really paid a huge homage to the people at the State Department, and tried to listen to their expertise and help them advance the policy. They had much more investment in this secretary of state than they did in previous.
HARRIS: So a lot of it was his personal sort of hands-on approach and style. Elise Labott, we appreciate you taking the time. We'll let you go and do some more work on this story. But stay close. We'll be needing you throughout the morning. We appreciate it.
KAGAN: All right. As U.S. Secretary Of State Colin Powell obviously a man known or known of around the world. Let's see how reaction is filing in from Europe and bring in our Robin Oakley who is standing by in London -- Robin.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN'S EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: Well, Colin Powell was always regarded as the most popular face of the Bush administration in Europe. He had a degree of access to European leaders probably unrivaled among members of the American administration. He was widely respected, had a particularly good working relationship with Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary.
But for all of that, Colin Powell didn't manage to persuade Europeans to get as much involved in Iraq, as he and the administration would have liked them to do. He was not able to persuade many of the other nations involved in NATO to send forces to Iraq for all his personal popularity.
I think what was appreciated, though, particularly with Colin Powell was that he didn't seem to try and play the game of divide and rule in Europe, in the same way that Donald Rumsfeld did, by characterizing old and new Europe. The old Europe countries in Donald Rumsfeld's view being France and Germany. The new Europe countries being those that had recently joined former members of the Soviet Bloc who were particularly grateful to the United States for its past role in humbling the Soviet empire. And therefore who were more inclined to look upon U.S. policy with favor.
Colin Powell didn't play those sort of games. He was always respected as a man who gave the Europeans a straight opinion -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right Robin, I do have a question for you. But we want our viewers to know that we had heard that there were going to be four resignations today. We are now getting the word of the fourth. And that is Ann Veneman, the secretary of agriculture. So it's Ann Veneman, Rod Paige, Spencer Abraham and Colin Powell who are offering their resignations today to the Bush administration. Question for you, Robin, here about Colin Powell and how he's perceived. Interesting point you make about how he had a different tactic. Do you think also Europeans appreciating or liking that at least he was perceived to have more moderate views than some others in the administration?
OAKLEY: Oh, yes. He was certainly seen as the most moderate member of the administration. And somebody who saw things a little bit more as the European politicians tend to do in differing shades of gray, rather than necessarily in sharp -- sharply contrasting shades of black and white. He was also regarded as somebody with a great practical experience when it came to any war situation, obviously with his military background. I think that brought him an extra degree of respect.
He was also seen, I think, as a very courteous member of the administration. I remember particularly at one NATO meeting, where he was engaged by the wife of a cameraman who head been killed probably by friendly fire in the Iraq conflict. And he dealt with her with enormous personal sympathy, and did what he could to get extra information to her. And I think that was very much appreciated not only by diplomats of different countries, but also by the journalists with whom he came into contact on his fairly regular visits to NATO and around European capitals -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Robin, with the death last week of Yasser Arafat, a lot of people around the world seeing this as an opening, as an opportunity perhaps to reach or advance Mideast peace at this time. And a lot of people thinking that Colin Powell would step forward and lead in that. Again he's not leaving until January. But are there other leaders, perhaps other European leads are who might take a role in that?
OAKLEY: Well, I think other European leaders were particularly hoping that Colin Powell would get involved in the Middle East peace process. A revived Middle East peace process. They would have liked to see him even if he was going to give up on the secretary of state position, maybe be some kind of special envoy in the Middle East.
And it was noted how he said that America was going to seize the opportunity presented by the death of Yasser Arafat to get very actively engaged in the Middle East peace process. And I think coming from Colin Powell, that assurance was seized upon very gratefully in Europe, and a lot of notice was taken of that. So there will be disappointment that he is moving on to something different now -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Robin Oakley giving us perspective from London. Robin, thank you for that.
Once again the breaking news, as we were talking to Robin there, the fourth name, the fourth resignation coming in Ann Veneman, the secretary of agriculture. So now we know the four names of cabinet members offering resignations today: Ann Veneman, Rod Paige, Spencer Abraham, and of course, the big name, the big news, Colin Powell.
With more on that now, here's Tony.
HARRIS: OK. Elise Labott is back with us, our CNN State Department producer.
And Elise, let me have you pick up on what Robin was just talking about that Colin Powell was this moderate face, this affable, friendly moderate, but still forceful face for this administration.
LABOTT: Well, certainly when he would speak to the Arabs -- excuse me, the Europeans and the Arabs even, they would think of him as a more moderate voice and they enjoyed talking to him. They thought he listened to their concerns and that he advocated a more hands on, diplomatic approach and that he was a more moderate voice.
One of the complaints among a lot of diplomats that we speak to is they really didn't know whether he was -- whether the administration held that moderate approach. In fact, we see often that they did not. And so sometimes they said we don't know who's speaking. Colin Powell, is he speaking on behalf of the president or is he speaking as a personal person?
And a lot of times they would have to go to other people in the administration to really get their opinion. So they appreciated his moderate voice. But at the same time, they didn't know if he really had the ear of the president. Of course, Secretary Powell and a lot of his close aides would say that he did. But considering the differing approaches, you really never knew.
HARRIS: OK. Elise I'm going to ask you to hold on for just a second. There is still much more to report on this story, of course, as we follow the resignation of Secretary of State Colin Powell and a host of others in the Bush administration.
KAGAN: Four on this Monday. What a way to kick off the week. We're going to cover much more on Colin Powell as well as the other resignations. And there's still a lot of other news out there.
HARRIS: Absolutely.
KAGAN: And we'll get to all of that after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: OK. Once again, we continue to cover the breaking news. Four resignations in the Bush administration today. Topping that list Secretary of State Colin Powell submitting his resignation. It will become effective in January. Not completely unexpected; the timing perhaps a little bit.
Let's go ahead and bring in Jamie Rubin. He knows the State Department well. He was the spokesperson for former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, joining us from London.
Jamie, always a pleasure to talk to you.
JAMES RUBIN, FMR. ASSIST. SECY. OF STATE: Nice to speak to you, Daryn.
KAGAN: What do you think the biggest impact of Colin Powell stepping away from this job will be?
RUBIN: Well, I think the biggest impact is there is simply no other figure in American politics who had the stature, the credibility in Washington and the respect internationally who could be reasonably called a moderate in terms of their outlook.
Let's face it, Colin Powell had candor, he had wisdom and he had integrity.
Candor we saw when things weren't going well in Iraq in the last several months. He was pretty much the only member of the administration who acknowledged that the situation was deteriorating, that the fighting on the ground was taking its toll.
And on integrity, he actually cared about his presentation to the world when it came to weapons of mass destruction last February. He went over the material very carefully. He threw out a lot of material that would argue for a massive threat from Iraq that other administration figures, like Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, were using every day to suggest that this was an urgent threat.
And on wisdom, clearly Colin Powell was the only voice in the Bush administration who recognized the need to go slowly and carefully when it came to invading Iraq, to build up an international coalition if possible, and to get that coalition to support us for the hard work, for the famous quote that he, probably to the regret of the Pottery Barn store, was put out there when he said, "If you break it, you own it."
So he understood that. He understood the importance of the Middle East peace process as part of the way to not only tamp down violence in the Middle East, but to bring respect to the United States.
He understood in ways the others didn't that it was extremely important to try to negotiate a solution to the North Korea problem.
So in all of these areas, pretty much the sweep, including U.S./China relations, of American foreign policy, Colin Powell was a moderate voice. He was a voice of caution and prudence and wisdom.
And because of the respect he had built up internationally, because of the fact that he had the highest approval ratings of perhaps any figure in American politics, he was listened to to an extent.
And there is simply no way we're going to get a replacement for Colin Powell in this administration that will have that credibility behind them. KAGAN: When you say "listened to," do you think in some camps he was listened to more outside the United States than what he was able to influence inside this White House?
RUBIN: Absolutely. That's why I said "to some extent."
I think it's fair to point out that on most of the big battles Colin Powell lost, whether it was the decision to invade Iraq without going through the careful planning needed to have a force able to stabilize and secure Iraq, whether it was the need to build the biggest possible coalition, whether it was the need to come up with realistic negotiating positions with North Korea.
On his first couple of months on the job, he proposed picking up where the previous administration left off in negotiations with North Korea and the president pulled the rug right out from under him and said they were going to review the matter and didn't trust Kim Jong Il.
Also on the Middle East peace process, time and time again, Colin Powell told journalists, told international figures that the Bush administration was going to make Middle East peace-making a top priority. And time and time again the administration decided that it was wiser to let the parties deal with it themselves and to keep the United States out of it.
So I accept the fact that his moderating influence wasn't always successful. But I think that still means that whoever replaces Colin Powell won't have the clout, however limited, that he had.
KAGAN: All right, Jamie, I'm going to have you stand by here. Don't go anywhere. I want to bring in our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield who's standing by in New York City watching this news.
And as I was saying earlier not totally unexpected. We knew it was coming sometime early -- or figured it was coming sometime early in the administration.
Jeff, if you'd pick up on Jamie's remark that here by moderates he is celebrated, Colin Powell, as a moderate voice and yet in most battles he engaged in in this administration did not succeed.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: And that's one of the interesting things will be to see what the reaction to this is from his adversaries, from the voices of what it was called neoconservatism.
Powell has come under fire for being too cautious, for not being willing to take the steps that these folks thought needed to be made not only to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but to change the map of the Middle East. And that was a theory that was one of the reasons why we went to war with Iraq.
So, you know, voices like the Weekly Standard, an influential conservative magazine, who have been at odds with Powell on this, people in the Congress who are strong supporters of the president who may have seen Colin Powell as too cautious -- the very things Jamie Rubin praises, his adversaries saw as liabilities.
So we're not just going to hear the notion that now the Bush administration has lost its most important moderate voice. But I'm really curious to see who Powell's adversaries want to see in that job. Is it a Paul Wolfowitz, who is one of the architects of the idea to go into Iraq? Is it going to be someone from the Congress, somebody who might ease some of those fears, somebody like a Richard Lugar, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as they used to say a known moderate?
But that's one of the things we ought to keep our eye on is where's the reaction from both sides of this divide that has, in fact, divided the Bush administration in its first term.
KAGAN: I want to go ahead and welcome our viewers that are joining us from around the world on CNN International.
Once again, the breaking news: Four members of the Bush Cabinet have handed in their resignation letters today. The top of that list, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Jeff want to bring you back, and then, Jamie get your comment on this, as well.
With the death last week of Yasser Arafat this would seem by some as a key opportunity to make some progress in Middle East peace, at least to reset the table if nothing else. Are you surprised that that, at least, was not enough to keep Colin Powell in the job?
GREENFIELD: I guess question, Daryn, would be when is there not an important international crisis/opportunity/danger on the horizon? The United States, you know, as the one superpower in the world, is involved with just about every region of the world.
And I goes the counterweight to that argument is, if not now, when? On a purely, what may seem -- I don't mean a personal note, but my notion about, you know, opportunities and dangers in the Middle East, I've been reading these headlines since I was old enough to read -- and that does go back a few decades.
So I think it's perfectly understandable that Powell would say, "Look, we're now in the transition to a second administration. It's the logical time for me to leave. If I stay here because Yasser Arafat died, then three months from now I'll have to stay because there's been a new step toward progress or away from progress."
So I can understand why that wouldn't stay his hand if he really was as anxious to leave as we've been hearing.
KAGAN: And, Jamie -- as we bring you in -- one of the splits in this administration is how it's viewed -- how important it is to engage in the Middle East peace process. Those that think that it's not that important, not the top priority, and those as is seen in Europe that it's the key to finding stability not just between the Israelis and Palestinians, but in Iraq and across most of the Middle East. Do you see this as a missed opportunity for Colin Powell?
RUBIN: Well, absolutely.
I mean, Jeff pointed out quite accurately the views of many in the administration who don't look at the Middle East as a situation that is particularly dire right now. They see the current flow of fighting between the Palestinians and the Israelis as inevitable and don't see the real need to engage.
And if you have that mindset, then this particular moment is, you know, only marginally more important than previous moments when Mr. Abbas was named prime minister a year and a half ago.
But I think in Colin Powell's case, he did tell outsiders and Europeans that he really believed and understood the point you made, Daryn, which is that the United States has to engage in the Middle East peace process not just because we are the only country with influence over both parties, but also because the rest of the world expects us to.
They expect us to work this problem. For administration after administration, Republican and Democrat, the American president, the American secretary of state have engaged in the Middle East peace process; some more successful than others.
But that bipartisan tradition is what has been rejected by this administration with an attitude that, you know, the Middle East is never really going to get that much better, the attitude that Jeff just pointed to, and suggesting that it's really up to them to solve these problems.
When Colin Powell looked at this, I suspect he said, "Well, it is an opportunity." But I also believe, from what I've been told, that he has been determined to leave, absent some overwhelming development that required his presence, for about a year now. And all of these rumors and wishful thinking that were coming out that Colin Powell was going to stick around was just that, wishful thinking by moderates, by Europeans and perhaps some journalists who saw him as a good figure to cover.
KAGAN: Jamie Rubin in London, Jeff Greenfield, New York City, gentlemen, thank you very much, commenting on our breaking news. Four, four letters of resignation committed to the Bush...
HARRIS: Should I tick this off?
KAGAN: OK. Go.
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