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FDA Defends Handling of Vioxx Issue; Possible New Case of Mad Cow Disease; Bill Clinton to Open Presidential Library

Aired November 18, 2004 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN Co-Host: Here's Fredricka and Rick Sanchez at the CNN Center. Good morning.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN CO-HOST: Hey, guys.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, ANCHOR: Hello, to you all.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Got a lot of news for you this morning. Yes, the bridge to the 21-Century, of course.

WHITFIELD: That's right. We'll be covering that in Little Rock, Arkansas all morning.

SANCHEZ: There's some new information about Mad Cow disease. And it's somewhat inconclusive still, but we're going to bring you the very latest developments from the Agriculture Department.

WHITFIELD: We will indeed. In fact, that's going to top our look at top stories right now in the news.

Right now, the U.S. Agriculture Department is stating that they may have found a second case of Mad Cow disease in the U.S. Tests will be completed somewhere within the next four to seven days. More on that as we get it.

A Senate panel looks for answers this morning into why and when a popular painkiller was pulled off store shelves. The makers of the drug Vioxx, and FDA officials have been called to testify. Critics say the FDA ignored safety concerns raised by a reviewer. The FDA labels that reviewer, a maverick who didn't follow agency policy.

Dignitaries are gathering at a site along the Arkansas River this hour for the dedication of the Clinton Presidential Library. The guest list is long, 30,000 have been invited. And the library's holdings are extensive. The collection includes more than 80 million presidential items.

Some significant finds by U.S. and Iraqi forces conducting sweeps through Falluja. Troops came across an abandoned safe house linked to insurgent leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Found inside, one letter from al Zarqawi and another to him, plus symbols pledging loyalty to al Qaeda. In a separate raid, forces uncovered a bomb-making factory.

And more insurgent attacks in Iraq today. A roadside bomb, apparently meant for U.S. military convoy in Kirkuk, blew up killing two Iraqi civilians. At least five other Iraqis were killed in bomb blasts in Baghdad and the oil refinery city of Bhaji. Elsewhere, Iraq's interim government declared victory in the battle of Falluja.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Daryn Kagan.

SANCHEZ: And I'm Rick Sanchez. And we mentioned just moments ago that we're going to be talking to you about this Mad Cow development. As we speak, we're trying to get Dr. Sanjay Gupta over to my left, miked up and ready to go. We're going to bring you not only the update on that story but some of the background, as well, because it could possibly affect so many of us.

Moving on, here's some of the other stories that we're following on this day. The question on Capitol Hill this morning, it's a major drug company, and the FDA has them on the hot spot. We're talking about the billion-dollar painkiller Vioxx. You'll remember that Merck and the company voluntarily pulled the painkiller from the market seven weeks ago, after Vioxx was linked to heart attack and stroke.

Now, critics are saying that the FDA failed in its safety oversight, not just with Vioxx, but has this with other drugs, as well. The Senate Finance Committee is beginning its hearings right now.

CNN's Chris Huntington is following it for us and trying to bring us up to date on what they knew and when they knew it. I guess those are some of the key questions.

Over to you, Chris.

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Rick. What the senators really want to find out today is whether or not Merck or the FDA, or the two of them combined sat on, suppressed or in any way hid information from the American public that might have kept them in the dark about the dangers of Vioxx.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUNTINGTON (voice-over): FDA scientist David Graham estimated in a study this summer that Vioxx caused nearly 28,000 severe heart attacks, many of them fatal, over a four-year period. But Graham tells CNN and is expected to sell the Senate Finance Committee that he was pressured to tone down those conclusions by the FDA. Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley wants to know why Merck and the FDA didn't do more to protect the public from the dangers of Vioxx.

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R) GRASSLEY: I'm very concerned about whether or not Food and Drug Administration is doing the work the way it should be. The public is their clientele and not the pharmaceutical companies.

HUNTINGTON: Grassley and other committee members will also grill Merck's CEO Ray Gilmartin, who is expected to continue defending his company and Vioxx.

RAY GILMARTIN, CEO, MERCK: The FDA pointed out in their press release on the day that we announced that we were voluntarily withdrawing the drug, that the risk for anyone individual for a heart attack or stroke was very small.

HUNTINGTON: The FDA insists it did all it could on Vioxx and is sending the acting director of its Office of New Drugs to maintain that position at the hearing. But Dr. Sidney Wolf, whose worstpills.com Web site told patients to avoid Vioxx years ago, says the FDA and Merck did not warn more loudly on Vioxx because there was too much money at stake.

DR. SIDNEY WOLF, PUBLIC CITIZEN HEALTH RESEARCH: The company didn't warn them because they wanted to sell drugs. And the FDA didn't warn them because part of the problem with the FDA is they get paid directly by drug companies to do a lot of their business, and they don't want to offend drug companies.

HUNTINGTON: The FDA denied CNN's repeated request for an interview regarding the money it receives from pharmaceutical companies. But since 1992, drug makers have been legally required to pay the FDA to review new drugs and oversee those already on the market. Vioxx plaintiff lawyers argue that's a conflict of interest.

ANDY BIRCHFIELD, PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY, VIOXX: They were the lapdog for, you know, for the industry and certainly not the watchdog for, you know, for public safety, you know, that we need.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Well, that's Chris Huntington following that Vioxx story for you.

Now we certain to another possible medical story, and that is this development that we told you just moments ago about Mad Cow disease. Now this is the Department of Agriculture saying that there may be a case, but the information so far is inconclusive.

Let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta try and clear that up for us.

That word "inconclusive," and they say -- and I'll read it to you and to the viewers, as well. "The first round screening test returned inconclusive results for Mad Cow disease in samples being submitted for final and more sophisticated analysis."

What does that mean?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, there's a surveillance program in place to try and figure out if a cow has Mad Cow disease. And Mad Cow disease is caused by an infectious agent. Sometimes if a cow starts acting like a have symptoms of Mad Cow disease; stumbling, sometimes they become demented, all those sorts of symptoms, that sends up a warning signal to people. Let's check this cow out. Let's check out all the cows in this particular herd, check out all the animals that might have been affected.

They send off tests. They're just screening tests to try and figure out if anything is absolutely positive. What that means to me is that the test did not come back absolutely positive, but that more confirmatory tests are needed. They're concerned about a cow, Rick. That's what this means.

SANCHEZ: There must be some concern if they're putting this information out, right?

GUPTA: That's right. A cow acted funny, a cow acted like he or she may have had Mad Cow disease. They need to investigate.

SANCHEZ: Why is it so important that they do this? And what should we take from it as consumers of meat in this country?

GUPTA: The biggest thing is Mad Cow disease is caused by an infectious agent. Which if it gets into the human population, can make humans very sick, as well. That hasn't happened in the United States. Although if this cow is infected this will be the second case of Mad Cow disease in a cow. They want to make sure that none of this meat from this cow or any cow surrounding this cow actually get into the human population.

I will tell you this, and I did a lot of reporting on this after the first Mad Cow case. A lot of precautions are taken in place right away to make sure none of that meat actually gets into the distribution, even if the cow doesn't end up having Mad Cow disease.

SANCHEZ: Is it the rule usually that they would rather be safe than sorry? They'll go in even if they're not quite sure, and they will destroy the cattle from that particular farm? And haven't they done that in the past?

GUPTA: Absolutely. This could be a much bigger story for the cattle industry than it is for the human industry because a lot of cattle will probably have to be destroyed, if -- especially if this comes back positive for Mad Cow disease.

But I don't want to underplay this. This is a big concern. People have been talking about Mad Cow for a long time and the threat to our cattle industry. If this is a second case, a lot of people are going to be pointing fingers and asking questions.

SANCHEZ: Could happen what happened in England, although certainly we're not at that point yet.

GUPTA: Exactly, Rick.

SANCHEZ: What's the next step along? I mean the viewers are going to be watching. What should we watch for next in this story?

GUPTA: Confirmatory test. A confirmation test. Does the cow have Mad Cow disease or not? Four to seven days typically before that test comes back.

SANCHEZ: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks again for answering the call for being here. Appreciate it.

GUPTA: Thank you. Sure.

SANCHEZ: Over to you, Fred. WHITFIELD: Also on Capitol Hill this morning, lawmakers return to a plate full of issues. They include raising the limits on the national debt, debating 9/11 reforms, and a rules change to keep the Republican leader in place.

For all the latest let's check in with CNN congressional correspondent Joe Johns.

And Joe, let's begin with another big top concern, which is the government going into deeper debt. You have to wonder if any checks are going to be bouncing any time soon.

(LAUGHTER)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's for sure. A lot of people here are wondering, too. But in all likelihood they will not, Fredricka. The House of Representatives coming in to session at this hour. The House is expected to take up the issue of raising the debt ceiling. That is the federal borrowing limit. They're expected to raise it up to $800 billion more than before. Obviously a huge number. The Senate has already passed the bill.

Democrats, of course, are on the attack. They're using this occasion essentially to take on the Republicans for fiscal policies over the last several years. Still, the administration says it absolutely has to be done, and quickly. It won't be taken up in the House of Representatives until later today, we're told; because so many Democrats wanted to go to the opening of the Clinton Library and won't be back until then -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And many months after being introduced, the 9/11 reform Bill, any idea whether it's going to be passing?

JOHNS: Well, they continue to work on that 9/11 intelligence reform bill. We're told it has been tough sledding. One Republican has described the progress as "glacial." Still, we are told the differences have narrowed, particularly on the all-important issue of creating a New Intelligence Director and giving him the authority to control the budget. Still, we're told that are other issues that they have to work out, including issues like immigration, for example, among others.

Back to you.

WHITFIELD: And the latest on the investigations of Tom DeLay?

JOHNS: Well, as you know, Tom DeLay just got a big win on yesterday. That win had to do with a change in the Republican rules so that he doesn't necessarily have to step down if he's indicted.

Republicans obviously very concerned right now about that grand jury investigation you alluded to, now going on in Texas. Three associates of Tom DeLay have been indicted. The Republicans here want to make sure he has an opportunity at least to retain his power in the event he is indicted -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Joe Johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: President Bush is en route at this hour to the dedication of his predecessor's presidential library. Mr. Bush will speak at the formal opening of the Bill Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, Arkansas. Former Presidents Bush and Carter will be on hand, along with a variety of celebrities, as well. In all some 30,000 people are going to attend this invitation only event.

And one of those is CNN's senior political correspondent Candy Crowley, who's watching things for us.

How are things going thus far -- Candy?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So far, but it's pouring down rain. I should add I didn't get an invitation. But you know, they let the press come for this for some reason.

They're calling this a Clinton palooza and there's really good reason for it. As you mentioned, we are going to hear from presidents: 39, Jimmy Carter; 41, George H. W. Bush; 42 Bill Clinton, and of course, 43 George Bush, the current president. So they are the main speakers here.

But what's interesting is, this is a very Clintonesque event. In the pre-program, they have brought four or five speakers who will talk about how Bill Clinton changed their lives. And they are a small business owner, or a young girl who asked Bill Clinton at a town hall meeting why she and her twin sister couldn't go to the same elementary school. So there are a number of very common touches here. Which, of course, as you know, have been the hallmarks of the Clinton campaign, as he himself has said he's sort of a blue state politician with a red state touch.

So this is a huge time for the Democrats to celebrate. As you know, they did get to do that on election night. So there's kind of two story lines going on here. You have the one story line about Bill Clinton and the reflection on the past. But then you have an awful lot of Democrats here who are talking about the future and where they're going to find the next Bill Clinton.

SANCHEZ: In fact I was just going to say, Candy, isn't part of that conversation about finding replicas not only of the Oval Office and the cabinet room, that you'll see in that museum behind you, but also almost a replica of Bill Clinton for the Democrats?

CROWLEY: Oh, absolutely. I mean they are -- they are -- and you hear a lot of talking. And remember we're in Arkansas and this is about Bill Clinton. So we're hearing a lot of talk about Hillary Clinton in '08. She of course, demurs because this is his time. And also it's awfully early to be talking about '08. But when you just talk to people who've come to kind of absorb the ambience and that kind of thing, they say you know, we really have to find another Bill Clinton.

But I had a talk with John Podesta, the former chief of staff for Bill Clinton, and he said look, when Bill Clinton gave his speech, I believe it was in 1991 before the Democratic National Convention, nobody thought Bill Clinton was Bill Clinton. It was a terrible speech. Nobody could see him.

So you know, the Clinton people say look, there's somebody out there. They don't have to be from the South. They don't have to be a replica. And that over the next four years this will shake down and they'll find somebody.

SANCHEZ: Candy Crowley right there on the banks of the Arkansas River. We'll be checking back with you from time to time to get updates.

CROWLEY: OK.

SANCHEZ: In fact, stay with CNN for continuing coverage of the Clinton Library dedication throughout the day. And we should tell you that we're going to be talking to Paul Begala to well, expand and amplify you might say on some of the conversation that Candy and I were having just moments ago.

WHITFIELD: And they also go way back; someone else that we're going to be introducing. Still to come, hear what the mayor of Little Rock has to say about the Bill Clinton Library, and Bill Clinton himself. And all the festivities going on in that town.

SANCHEZ: Then bonus, what bonus? That's the question that many people are going to be asking this holiday season.

Also later, a bus in trouble. How the passengers inside managed to somehow keep it above water. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Time to find out what's going on weather wise. Boy, things got a little nasty yesterday around Houston.

WHITFIELD: Yes and it's a little nasty right now even though it's a big day in Little Rock.

But we know, Orelon, the rain is not going to dampen their spirits there at the opening of the library.

ORELON SIDNEY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: It's not going to dampen their spirits. Could mess up your hair, though.

WHITFIELD: Yes, bad hair day maybe.

(WEATHER REPORT)

SANCHEZ: Well, before you head to the mall with holiday shopping lists this year, you might want to cross a few things right off the list.

WHITFIELD: Mm-hmm. And that depends a whole lot on your boss. Still to come, why some people may have less cash in their stash this holiday season. SANCHEZ: First letters, car bombs, soldiers are finding all sorts of items in Iraq. And we're going to tell you specifically where they are finding them. Stay with us. We're coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Now the fight for Iraq, where house-to-house raids in Falluja have netted a chilling discovery. For details we turn to CNN's Karl Penhaul in the capital.

And Karl, what do these findings tell them?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka. Well we're told that the U.S. Army during part of its checks in a southeast neighborhood of Falluja, the industrial area, in fact, came across a house. There was a significant weapons cache there, we're told, a lot of heavy machine guns there; some of them, which look as if they may have been used for anti-aircraft activity, as well. A lot of armor piercing bullets there, as well. And the military also tell us there was equipment there for making bombs, and particularly for making car bombs.

In addition to that we understand there were slogans written on the wall of one of the houses in that area of Falluja, suggesting that the insurgent cell hold up there were allied to the al Zarqawi terrorist network. And by extension, to al Qaeda itself. The U.S. military has said that it also found two letters indicating ties to the al Zarqawi network. We haven't had sight of those letters or a full translation of them at this stage.

In addition to activities in Falluja, in Baghdad this morning, a car bomb exploded outside a police station in the western part of the city. Two civilians were killed in that blast, we're told by police. Six other civilians were wounded.

And then up north, in the city of Mosul, the city that has been seeing a lot of unrest in the last few days, there was a mortar attack we understand on the governor's office. Three of his bodyguards were wounded. We won't know if the governor was in the office at the time. But according to one of our reporters on the ground up in Mosul, he still says that there is a presence of insurgents in the streets, in particular three neighborhoods of that city, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Karl Penhaul reporting from Baghdad, thanks so much for that update -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: Karl was just telling me some of the things they found. Apparently they found other things, as well in Falluja. CNN has learned that troops discovered a number of personal items belonging to Yusef Hassoun. You may recall that name. Why? Because he's the U.S. Marine who disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

Sources say the items include Hassoun's military I.D., his civilian passport, and his uniform, which is being described as, in quote, "remarkably good shape." They were all tucked inside a building and it led to an investigation now being reopened. Hassoun disappeared from his camp in Falluja earlier this year. When he surfaced weeks later he insisted that he was the victim of a kidnapping. He has remained, by the way, on duty.

WHITFIELD: Well, the fighting in Iraq is a nightmare. A nightmare times two, particularly for one family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- just broke down. I couldn't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Still to come. A mother and father desperately trying to save one son, after the other narrowly escapes death.

WHITFIELD: But first let's go back to Bill Clinton's stomping ground in Little Rock to talk with one of his good friends, right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired November 18, 2004 - 10:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN Co-Host: Here's Fredricka and Rick Sanchez at the CNN Center. Good morning.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN CO-HOST: Hey, guys.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, ANCHOR: Hello, to you all.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Got a lot of news for you this morning. Yes, the bridge to the 21-Century, of course.

WHITFIELD: That's right. We'll be covering that in Little Rock, Arkansas all morning.

SANCHEZ: There's some new information about Mad Cow disease. And it's somewhat inconclusive still, but we're going to bring you the very latest developments from the Agriculture Department.

WHITFIELD: We will indeed. In fact, that's going to top our look at top stories right now in the news.

Right now, the U.S. Agriculture Department is stating that they may have found a second case of Mad Cow disease in the U.S. Tests will be completed somewhere within the next four to seven days. More on that as we get it.

A Senate panel looks for answers this morning into why and when a popular painkiller was pulled off store shelves. The makers of the drug Vioxx, and FDA officials have been called to testify. Critics say the FDA ignored safety concerns raised by a reviewer. The FDA labels that reviewer, a maverick who didn't follow agency policy.

Dignitaries are gathering at a site along the Arkansas River this hour for the dedication of the Clinton Presidential Library. The guest list is long, 30,000 have been invited. And the library's holdings are extensive. The collection includes more than 80 million presidential items.

Some significant finds by U.S. and Iraqi forces conducting sweeps through Falluja. Troops came across an abandoned safe house linked to insurgent leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Found inside, one letter from al Zarqawi and another to him, plus symbols pledging loyalty to al Qaeda. In a separate raid, forces uncovered a bomb-making factory.

And more insurgent attacks in Iraq today. A roadside bomb, apparently meant for U.S. military convoy in Kirkuk, blew up killing two Iraqi civilians. At least five other Iraqis were killed in bomb blasts in Baghdad and the oil refinery city of Bhaji. Elsewhere, Iraq's interim government declared victory in the battle of Falluja.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Daryn Kagan.

SANCHEZ: And I'm Rick Sanchez. And we mentioned just moments ago that we're going to be talking to you about this Mad Cow development. As we speak, we're trying to get Dr. Sanjay Gupta over to my left, miked up and ready to go. We're going to bring you not only the update on that story but some of the background, as well, because it could possibly affect so many of us.

Moving on, here's some of the other stories that we're following on this day. The question on Capitol Hill this morning, it's a major drug company, and the FDA has them on the hot spot. We're talking about the billion-dollar painkiller Vioxx. You'll remember that Merck and the company voluntarily pulled the painkiller from the market seven weeks ago, after Vioxx was linked to heart attack and stroke.

Now, critics are saying that the FDA failed in its safety oversight, not just with Vioxx, but has this with other drugs, as well. The Senate Finance Committee is beginning its hearings right now.

CNN's Chris Huntington is following it for us and trying to bring us up to date on what they knew and when they knew it. I guess those are some of the key questions.

Over to you, Chris.

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Rick. What the senators really want to find out today is whether or not Merck or the FDA, or the two of them combined sat on, suppressed or in any way hid information from the American public that might have kept them in the dark about the dangers of Vioxx.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUNTINGTON (voice-over): FDA scientist David Graham estimated in a study this summer that Vioxx caused nearly 28,000 severe heart attacks, many of them fatal, over a four-year period. But Graham tells CNN and is expected to sell the Senate Finance Committee that he was pressured to tone down those conclusions by the FDA. Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley wants to know why Merck and the FDA didn't do more to protect the public from the dangers of Vioxx.

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R) GRASSLEY: I'm very concerned about whether or not Food and Drug Administration is doing the work the way it should be. The public is their clientele and not the pharmaceutical companies.

HUNTINGTON: Grassley and other committee members will also grill Merck's CEO Ray Gilmartin, who is expected to continue defending his company and Vioxx.

RAY GILMARTIN, CEO, MERCK: The FDA pointed out in their press release on the day that we announced that we were voluntarily withdrawing the drug, that the risk for anyone individual for a heart attack or stroke was very small.

HUNTINGTON: The FDA insists it did all it could on Vioxx and is sending the acting director of its Office of New Drugs to maintain that position at the hearing. But Dr. Sidney Wolf, whose worstpills.com Web site told patients to avoid Vioxx years ago, says the FDA and Merck did not warn more loudly on Vioxx because there was too much money at stake.

DR. SIDNEY WOLF, PUBLIC CITIZEN HEALTH RESEARCH: The company didn't warn them because they wanted to sell drugs. And the FDA didn't warn them because part of the problem with the FDA is they get paid directly by drug companies to do a lot of their business, and they don't want to offend drug companies.

HUNTINGTON: The FDA denied CNN's repeated request for an interview regarding the money it receives from pharmaceutical companies. But since 1992, drug makers have been legally required to pay the FDA to review new drugs and oversee those already on the market. Vioxx plaintiff lawyers argue that's a conflict of interest.

ANDY BIRCHFIELD, PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY, VIOXX: They were the lapdog for, you know, for the industry and certainly not the watchdog for, you know, for public safety, you know, that we need.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Well, that's Chris Huntington following that Vioxx story for you.

Now we certain to another possible medical story, and that is this development that we told you just moments ago about Mad Cow disease. Now this is the Department of Agriculture saying that there may be a case, but the information so far is inconclusive.

Let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta try and clear that up for us.

That word "inconclusive," and they say -- and I'll read it to you and to the viewers, as well. "The first round screening test returned inconclusive results for Mad Cow disease in samples being submitted for final and more sophisticated analysis."

What does that mean?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, there's a surveillance program in place to try and figure out if a cow has Mad Cow disease. And Mad Cow disease is caused by an infectious agent. Sometimes if a cow starts acting like a have symptoms of Mad Cow disease; stumbling, sometimes they become demented, all those sorts of symptoms, that sends up a warning signal to people. Let's check this cow out. Let's check out all the cows in this particular herd, check out all the animals that might have been affected.

They send off tests. They're just screening tests to try and figure out if anything is absolutely positive. What that means to me is that the test did not come back absolutely positive, but that more confirmatory tests are needed. They're concerned about a cow, Rick. That's what this means.

SANCHEZ: There must be some concern if they're putting this information out, right?

GUPTA: That's right. A cow acted funny, a cow acted like he or she may have had Mad Cow disease. They need to investigate.

SANCHEZ: Why is it so important that they do this? And what should we take from it as consumers of meat in this country?

GUPTA: The biggest thing is Mad Cow disease is caused by an infectious agent. Which if it gets into the human population, can make humans very sick, as well. That hasn't happened in the United States. Although if this cow is infected this will be the second case of Mad Cow disease in a cow. They want to make sure that none of this meat from this cow or any cow surrounding this cow actually get into the human population.

I will tell you this, and I did a lot of reporting on this after the first Mad Cow case. A lot of precautions are taken in place right away to make sure none of that meat actually gets into the distribution, even if the cow doesn't end up having Mad Cow disease.

SANCHEZ: Is it the rule usually that they would rather be safe than sorry? They'll go in even if they're not quite sure, and they will destroy the cattle from that particular farm? And haven't they done that in the past?

GUPTA: Absolutely. This could be a much bigger story for the cattle industry than it is for the human industry because a lot of cattle will probably have to be destroyed, if -- especially if this comes back positive for Mad Cow disease.

But I don't want to underplay this. This is a big concern. People have been talking about Mad Cow for a long time and the threat to our cattle industry. If this is a second case, a lot of people are going to be pointing fingers and asking questions.

SANCHEZ: Could happen what happened in England, although certainly we're not at that point yet.

GUPTA: Exactly, Rick.

SANCHEZ: What's the next step along? I mean the viewers are going to be watching. What should we watch for next in this story?

GUPTA: Confirmatory test. A confirmation test. Does the cow have Mad Cow disease or not? Four to seven days typically before that test comes back.

SANCHEZ: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks again for answering the call for being here. Appreciate it.

GUPTA: Thank you. Sure.

SANCHEZ: Over to you, Fred. WHITFIELD: Also on Capitol Hill this morning, lawmakers return to a plate full of issues. They include raising the limits on the national debt, debating 9/11 reforms, and a rules change to keep the Republican leader in place.

For all the latest let's check in with CNN congressional correspondent Joe Johns.

And Joe, let's begin with another big top concern, which is the government going into deeper debt. You have to wonder if any checks are going to be bouncing any time soon.

(LAUGHTER)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's for sure. A lot of people here are wondering, too. But in all likelihood they will not, Fredricka. The House of Representatives coming in to session at this hour. The House is expected to take up the issue of raising the debt ceiling. That is the federal borrowing limit. They're expected to raise it up to $800 billion more than before. Obviously a huge number. The Senate has already passed the bill.

Democrats, of course, are on the attack. They're using this occasion essentially to take on the Republicans for fiscal policies over the last several years. Still, the administration says it absolutely has to be done, and quickly. It won't be taken up in the House of Representatives until later today, we're told; because so many Democrats wanted to go to the opening of the Clinton Library and won't be back until then -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And many months after being introduced, the 9/11 reform Bill, any idea whether it's going to be passing?

JOHNS: Well, they continue to work on that 9/11 intelligence reform bill. We're told it has been tough sledding. One Republican has described the progress as "glacial." Still, we are told the differences have narrowed, particularly on the all-important issue of creating a New Intelligence Director and giving him the authority to control the budget. Still, we're told that are other issues that they have to work out, including issues like immigration, for example, among others.

Back to you.

WHITFIELD: And the latest on the investigations of Tom DeLay?

JOHNS: Well, as you know, Tom DeLay just got a big win on yesterday. That win had to do with a change in the Republican rules so that he doesn't necessarily have to step down if he's indicted.

Republicans obviously very concerned right now about that grand jury investigation you alluded to, now going on in Texas. Three associates of Tom DeLay have been indicted. The Republicans here want to make sure he has an opportunity at least to retain his power in the event he is indicted -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Joe Johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: President Bush is en route at this hour to the dedication of his predecessor's presidential library. Mr. Bush will speak at the formal opening of the Bill Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, Arkansas. Former Presidents Bush and Carter will be on hand, along with a variety of celebrities, as well. In all some 30,000 people are going to attend this invitation only event.

And one of those is CNN's senior political correspondent Candy Crowley, who's watching things for us.

How are things going thus far -- Candy?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So far, but it's pouring down rain. I should add I didn't get an invitation. But you know, they let the press come for this for some reason.

They're calling this a Clinton palooza and there's really good reason for it. As you mentioned, we are going to hear from presidents: 39, Jimmy Carter; 41, George H. W. Bush; 42 Bill Clinton, and of course, 43 George Bush, the current president. So they are the main speakers here.

But what's interesting is, this is a very Clintonesque event. In the pre-program, they have brought four or five speakers who will talk about how Bill Clinton changed their lives. And they are a small business owner, or a young girl who asked Bill Clinton at a town hall meeting why she and her twin sister couldn't go to the same elementary school. So there are a number of very common touches here. Which, of course, as you know, have been the hallmarks of the Clinton campaign, as he himself has said he's sort of a blue state politician with a red state touch.

So this is a huge time for the Democrats to celebrate. As you know, they did get to do that on election night. So there's kind of two story lines going on here. You have the one story line about Bill Clinton and the reflection on the past. But then you have an awful lot of Democrats here who are talking about the future and where they're going to find the next Bill Clinton.

SANCHEZ: In fact I was just going to say, Candy, isn't part of that conversation about finding replicas not only of the Oval Office and the cabinet room, that you'll see in that museum behind you, but also almost a replica of Bill Clinton for the Democrats?

CROWLEY: Oh, absolutely. I mean they are -- they are -- and you hear a lot of talking. And remember we're in Arkansas and this is about Bill Clinton. So we're hearing a lot of talk about Hillary Clinton in '08. She of course, demurs because this is his time. And also it's awfully early to be talking about '08. But when you just talk to people who've come to kind of absorb the ambience and that kind of thing, they say you know, we really have to find another Bill Clinton.

But I had a talk with John Podesta, the former chief of staff for Bill Clinton, and he said look, when Bill Clinton gave his speech, I believe it was in 1991 before the Democratic National Convention, nobody thought Bill Clinton was Bill Clinton. It was a terrible speech. Nobody could see him.

So you know, the Clinton people say look, there's somebody out there. They don't have to be from the South. They don't have to be a replica. And that over the next four years this will shake down and they'll find somebody.

SANCHEZ: Candy Crowley right there on the banks of the Arkansas River. We'll be checking back with you from time to time to get updates.

CROWLEY: OK.

SANCHEZ: In fact, stay with CNN for continuing coverage of the Clinton Library dedication throughout the day. And we should tell you that we're going to be talking to Paul Begala to well, expand and amplify you might say on some of the conversation that Candy and I were having just moments ago.

WHITFIELD: And they also go way back; someone else that we're going to be introducing. Still to come, hear what the mayor of Little Rock has to say about the Bill Clinton Library, and Bill Clinton himself. And all the festivities going on in that town.

SANCHEZ: Then bonus, what bonus? That's the question that many people are going to be asking this holiday season.

Also later, a bus in trouble. How the passengers inside managed to somehow keep it above water. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: Time to find out what's going on weather wise. Boy, things got a little nasty yesterday around Houston.

WHITFIELD: Yes and it's a little nasty right now even though it's a big day in Little Rock.

But we know, Orelon, the rain is not going to dampen their spirits there at the opening of the library.

ORELON SIDNEY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: It's not going to dampen their spirits. Could mess up your hair, though.

WHITFIELD: Yes, bad hair day maybe.

(WEATHER REPORT)

SANCHEZ: Well, before you head to the mall with holiday shopping lists this year, you might want to cross a few things right off the list.

WHITFIELD: Mm-hmm. And that depends a whole lot on your boss. Still to come, why some people may have less cash in their stash this holiday season. SANCHEZ: First letters, car bombs, soldiers are finding all sorts of items in Iraq. And we're going to tell you specifically where they are finding them. Stay with us. We're coming right back.

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WHITFIELD: Now the fight for Iraq, where house-to-house raids in Falluja have netted a chilling discovery. For details we turn to CNN's Karl Penhaul in the capital.

And Karl, what do these findings tell them?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka. Well we're told that the U.S. Army during part of its checks in a southeast neighborhood of Falluja, the industrial area, in fact, came across a house. There was a significant weapons cache there, we're told, a lot of heavy machine guns there; some of them, which look as if they may have been used for anti-aircraft activity, as well. A lot of armor piercing bullets there, as well. And the military also tell us there was equipment there for making bombs, and particularly for making car bombs.

In addition to that we understand there were slogans written on the wall of one of the houses in that area of Falluja, suggesting that the insurgent cell hold up there were allied to the al Zarqawi terrorist network. And by extension, to al Qaeda itself. The U.S. military has said that it also found two letters indicating ties to the al Zarqawi network. We haven't had sight of those letters or a full translation of them at this stage.

In addition to activities in Falluja, in Baghdad this morning, a car bomb exploded outside a police station in the western part of the city. Two civilians were killed in that blast, we're told by police. Six other civilians were wounded.

And then up north, in the city of Mosul, the city that has been seeing a lot of unrest in the last few days, there was a mortar attack we understand on the governor's office. Three of his bodyguards were wounded. We won't know if the governor was in the office at the time. But according to one of our reporters on the ground up in Mosul, he still says that there is a presence of insurgents in the streets, in particular three neighborhoods of that city, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Karl Penhaul reporting from Baghdad, thanks so much for that update -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: Karl was just telling me some of the things they found. Apparently they found other things, as well in Falluja. CNN has learned that troops discovered a number of personal items belonging to Yusef Hassoun. You may recall that name. Why? Because he's the U.S. Marine who disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

Sources say the items include Hassoun's military I.D., his civilian passport, and his uniform, which is being described as, in quote, "remarkably good shape." They were all tucked inside a building and it led to an investigation now being reopened. Hassoun disappeared from his camp in Falluja earlier this year. When he surfaced weeks later he insisted that he was the victim of a kidnapping. He has remained, by the way, on duty.

WHITFIELD: Well, the fighting in Iraq is a nightmare. A nightmare times two, particularly for one family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- just broke down. I couldn't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Still to come. A mother and father desperately trying to save one son, after the other narrowly escapes death.

WHITFIELD: But first let's go back to Bill Clinton's stomping ground in Little Rock to talk with one of his good friends, right after this short break.

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