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CNN Live Today
Rocket Attack in Mosul Kills 22 and Wounds 51; Murder on Pregnant Women is on the Rise
Aired December 21, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Let's get started.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Let's get started.
A bloody reminded of the constant danger of Americans, four troops there in Iraq, insurgents attacked a U.S. military near Mosul today killing 22 people. We got first word of the attack a short time ago from the Pentagon.
That's where CNN's Elaine Quijano is.
Elaine, what is the latest you can share with us? Elaine can you hear me?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Tony, I'm having difficulty hearing you.
HARRIS: OK.
QUIJANO: But just to recap, we know from Pentagon officials, again this attack coming around 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time, an unknown number of explosive rounds hitting a dining hall. Now, this again was at the Forward Operating Base Marez reports that 22 people were killed, 51 wounded. Again, this a mixture of U.S. troops, Iraqi National Guard and civilian contractors. But at this particular point, we do not have a breakdown.
Now, we understand that within Task Force Olympia, the U.S. Army group there, there are 10,000 U.S. troops. And of that 10,000 there's a Striker Brigade which is about 5,000 troops from Fort Lewis, Washington. Now, we should also emphasize the rest is support troops from all over the country. And even though that main military force, that Striker Brigade is from Fort Lewis, there are indeed military personnel from all over.
The Iraqi National Guard, of course, also working with U.S. troops in that area. But we do not yet have a number on exactly how large that Iraqi force is. We should also emphasize that Mosul was relatively calm at one point after the invasion. The 101 was in charge there, responsible for helping to get projects there under way. But after the Falluja operation there was, in fact, an up tick in the violence in Mosul.
But again, this latest attack, Pentagon officials are saying 22 people killed, 51 wounded -- Tony. HARRIS: And Elaine, let's revisit some of that history. You mentioned it and absolutely correctly that right after the attacks and the work of the U.S. forces in Falluja, there was a sense that there was movement of the insurgency up to Mosul. And initially there were attacks on all kinds of Iraqi military there, police and National Guard. And this seems to be a continuation of that.
QUIJANO: Well, certainly. When you take a step back from this and look at really the larger strategy. The U.S.' hope is that they eventually, of course, want to turn over the security responsibilities to the Iraqi people themselves. To the Iraqi security forces themselves. Well just yesterday, we heard President Bush talking about how they're, in fact, even though there has been progress made, there in fact have been some bumps in the road. Notably when some of those Iraqi forces called upon to fight leaving the battlefield. President Bush saying yesterday that is simply unacceptable. So definitely a lot of challenges lie ahead.
But just last week, General Casey was here talking about -- he's in charge of the multi national forces, he was saying there has been, as far as he could tell, progress made. But he acknowledged that there is still a long way to go. So that is an important piece of the U.S.' strategy. Whether or not, obviously the Iraqis are going to be able to take control of their own security responsibility.
HARRIS: And that's exactly the point, Elaine, as we think back to the comments from the president yesterday in his lengthy news conference. That is a point that he stretched. That the Iraqi military and the Iraqi National Guard and police there at some point have to take over this job of protecting their own country. And I think the word that he used is that to this point there has been "mixed results." A mixed outcome in terms of how well these forces have been doing there.
QUIJANO: Well, that's exactly right. And the lead-up obviously to all of this is the January 30 deadline, the elections. That is really seen as the main focus here at the Pentagon. Planners looking to try and secure, obviously the areas where they have military forces so that people can, in fact, go to the polls.
But beyond that, obviously there are still a lot of unanswered questions. What will the U.S.' role be? But they are mainly looking at making sure that elections are carried off successfully. And that as far as the Bush administration is concerned, again, a major piece of the strategy. The president saying yesterday that Americans and the world really should look at it as a very beginning step, really. Not necessarily end. But the beginning of the process the movement towards democracy in Iraq. The administration hopes.
HARRIS: OK, Elaine stand by. We'll come back to you, of course, as we continue to follow this story.
Let's bring Daryn in.
KAGAN: That we do.
I'd also like to welcome our viewers that are joining us around the world on CNN International.
Right now, we want to go live to Baghdad for come background on the attack that took place later today on the U.S. military.
Our Karl Penhaul is in the Iraqi capital.
Karl, hello.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there. From what we can detail from sources so far is that this was multiple rounds that landed on a dining facility in Camp Marez in Mosul. They haven't detailed so far whether these were rockets or mortars. Depending on what kind of artillery shells were used though, it would also dictate how far away from the point of impact those insurgents were.
We know in the past that insurgents have used 105-millimeter artillery shells in homemade launchers. Those artillery shells can fly anything up to about up to 17 miles. If it were a mortar or something like that the range would be somewhat less, probably six or seven miles out. No confirmation yet though from military sources what kinds of devices were used, though.
But talking to one of our CNN photographers, Gabe Ramirez, he was up on that base about three or four weeks ago now. and he's described to me what that dining hall is like. And he says it is a very large tent facility. But it is a soft-skinned building. No hardened protection there.
And he says at meal times, as this was, he said there was seating for about four or 500 soldiers in there. Of course that wouldn't necessarily all be full all of the time, depending on what number of solders were out on patrol.
But he said it was a large, a very comfortable facility. But no hardened protection there at all. And he does say that in his conversations with soldiers during his time at that base, many of them did say and suggest that this was an accident waiting to happen. Because yes, the insurgents obviously knew of the existence of that base and would target it with mortars and rockets. But the soldiers felt they were at risk precisely because they would mass in that one building at certain times of day. And that it could be a potential insurgent target.
KAGAN: And Karl, tell us more about the Mosul area and what surrounds it. There are a number of Sunnis, a number of Saddam loyalists in that area.
PENHAUL: Well, really, Mosul came back to prominence when the Falluja offensive kicked off in the start of November. At that point, Mosul had been calm for a relative lengthy spell. But when the Falluja offensive began, we did see some of the violence displacing there.
That led U.S. military commanders to suggest that some of the insurgents may have fled Falluja, and gone to Mosul to start up trouble there. Or that simply, other insurgent cells in Mosul may have been stepping up attacks in that area, to try and divert coalition firepower away from Falluja.
But certainly through much of November and part of November -- December, rather, we have seen multiple insurgent attacks in Mosul, particularly centered on police stations there. At one point, insurgents had overrun in excess of 10 or 15 police stations in Mosul. And at many points, the police would simply not stand and fight they would run away. That probably a reflection of lack of discipline and also to some extent lack of training. There were also suggestions at the time that the police may, in fact, be infiltrated by the insurgents. And that's why they would simply hand over or lay down their weapons and run away.
There's also been speculation as well by U.S. military commanders that part of the Abu Musab al Zarqawi terrorist network had taken up roots in Mosul after it was displaced from Falluja. That's not to say Zarqawi himself was based there. But certainly fighters loyal to him.
KAGAN: All right. Karl Penhaul in Baghdad, thank you. We'll be getting back to you.
For our viewers joining us we're following a story outside of Mosul. An attack on a U.S. military base there. We know of 22 people who have been killed. This includes U.S. troops, members of the Iraqi National Guard and Iraqi civilians. That's according to Pentagon officials. Also we're hearing as many as 51 people wounded in this incident. It took place at noon local time 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time -- Tony.
Let's get Ken Pollack's perspective. Ken Pollack is a CNN analyst, of course. He's also with the Saban Center of the Brookings Institute.
Ken, good morning.
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Good morning, Tony. How are you?
HARRIS: Good. Well, give us a sense of this insurgency as it is currently constituted in your mind. Foreign fighters, mostly Iraqis, Sunnis? Break it down and sort of cast the face of this insurgency if you would, please.
POLLACK: Sure, Tony. The first thing to keep in mind is that this is a rather broad insurgency. There are a lot of people who are taking shots at the Americans and the Iraqi government inside of Iraq. But in terms of the most important component, there is no question that by far the most important component of this insurgency are Sunni tribesmen. The heart of Saddam's old regime. Percentage of Iraq's population, probably no more than five or 10 percent of Iraq's population.
But they control a huge chunk of territory in western and northwestern Iraq. They feel completely dispossessed by the reconstruction. They feel alienated from the political rebuilding process that's going on. They think that what the United States is trying to do is to build a Shia-Kurdish government that will oppress them, just as they oppressed the Shia and the Kurds for the past 30 years. That's why they are fighting us. And until we deal with that problem, I think you're going to see this insurgency get worse and worse.
HARRIS: Well, Ken, the obvious next question is how do you deal with it? What do we do? How do we deal with it?
POLLACK: Yes. It's -- there's no question it is a tall order. But I still have reason to be optimistic about it. There are ways to deal with the Sunni community. The most important thing is you need to convince the tribal sheikhs. And again, the people we're talking about still function within a tribal structure. They still are fairly responsive to their tribal sheikhs. You need to convince the tribal sheikhs that they are going to be important members of Iraq's new political order.
Their people are not going to be oppressed the way that they oppress the Shia and the Kurds. Their people are going to have economic benefits, just like every other Iraqi. They're going to be brought into the process. Beyond that, there needs to be a broader process of education among the Sunnis. To make them aware of what this new government is going to look like. And beyond that, you need to get economic resources out into the Sunni hinterland.
Now, this has been a problem all across Iraq. So it's not like the U.S. has been particularly negligent of the Sunni areas. But in this case, because of the problem with the Sunnis, I think it behooves the United States to pay extra attention to getting those economic resources out into this part of the country, to make this community feel like they're going to be reasonably well-off, at least comfortable.
HARRIS: OK. Ken, they want to be stakeholders. They want to feel like they have a voice at the table. But they're outnumbered. So how much of a voice -- are they more accurately figuring out where they -- their place in this whole dance that's going on over there?
POLLACK: Yes, it's an excellent point, Tony, because you're right. Obviously there are Sunnis there who want to be the majority in Iraq. Honestly, there are many Iraqi Sunnis who believe that they are in the majority in Iraq now. We obviously need to do a census. But it looks like that is not the case.
But what we need to convince them of is that in this new Iraq that the United States is trying to build, if it succeeds, Iraq will be so much more prosperous than it was under Saddam. That while their relative stake may not be as big as it was under Saddam, in an absolute sense they will be far, far better off than they were under Saddam. That's really the key.
And I think if we can do that we can turn around a lot of Sunnis. Our mistake has been that we have mostly ignored this section of the population. We've mostly concentrated on the Shia and the Kurds. That sent the wrong message.
HARRIS: OK. Ken Pollack, stand by, please. And we'll get back to you in just a couple of minutes. KAGAN: And before we get back to Ken, we want to go to London, bring in our Nic Robertson. He has spent a lot of time in Iraq, especially in the Mosul area, embedded at one point with the U.S. military. A different base than the one attacked today.
And yet, Nic, you can give us an idea of the area and the insurgency that the U.S. military and Iraqi national forces are fighting in that part of the world.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INT'L. CORRESPONDENT: Well, the insurgency, when it comes to targeting the bases is certainly one that's been very, very active. In the time that I was there, about three or four weeks ago, there were attacks perhaps every other day, maybe for a period of two or three days and nothing for a couple of days. The way those attacks would come, it would either be rockets or mortars fired into the bases. They would generally it seems without particular aim more sort of harassing fire to get into the base.
It was interesting that they often seemed to try and fire, however, at times around meal times, perhaps when soldiers would be gathered to get their meals. Middle of the day, late in the afternoon. Those seem to be the typical times when these rounds would come in. On the base I was at, all around the base were places, secure little shelters for troops to hide in should there be an attack in this nature.
But it was one of the focuses for the troops there. Obviously they have many, many roles. Supporting the Iraqi support forces, the police in the city, dealing with the attacks that they get out on the streets. Doing raids to try and track down insurgents. But one of the other key parts of their daily work was to figure out where the insurgents were attacking them from.
That was made difficult, they told me, because in some cases, there were literally -- insurgents would literally jump out of a vehicle with a mortar, fire a mortar into the base and drive off. Very inaccurate, but nevertheless in terms of harassing the troops there's an effect there.
KAGAN: Well, also what about the kind of support they were getting from the Mosul community that the insurgents would be getting? This is Sunni territory. This was Saddam-friendly territory. This is where his sons were found in this area last year.
ROBERTSON: That's correct. There were certain areas in Mosul where the multi-national force, particularly the U.S. troops or the Striker Brigade Task Force Olympia could move about on foot through the streets. Some people could greet them. Some people would just watch them go by. But where the troops could operate on foot, on patrol fairly easily and readily. Not without danger but fairly easily.
There are other areas of the city that present a much greater threat to the troops. And typically those define themselves in two types of areas. One, a more up market, middle class type of area where I'm told by the troops the houses tended to be owned in the past by senior Baath Party officials, larger houses.
Houses that are very often the focus for raids these days, where the troops believe that the people living in those houses, the former Baath Party officials are behind the insurgency. Motivating, funding, organizing, part of the intimidation campaign against the people of Mosul to try and prevent them voting.
The other area that is particularly active against the coalition as they go out on the streets in their vehicles, are some of the poorer neighborhoods on the western side of Mosul. Some of those leaning towards the western fringes of Mosul. And those have been for the coalition some of the most dangerous. Ambushes, roadside bombs, multiple coordinated attacks just about two weeks ago. There was a very large attack on U.S. troops. They returned and put down that attack killing at least 12 insurgents.
But it's -- but it is -- Mosul is still -- is still a very difficult place for the coalition to do the job of helping to rebuild the city and the civil infrastructures that they want to do. And it makes it very, very difficult for them to convince the police, many of whom have been scared out of their jobs there in Mosul, to convince the police to go back into their police stations, to remain at their posts, to afford the police protection when they're attacked.
And these have been the primary functions of the troops, to ensure that the security of the city is maintained. But those different areas, the middle-class former Baathist areas and those -- some of the poorer neighborhoods really the most dangerous for the troops -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Nic Robertson in London. Nic, thank you.
HARRIS: And Daryn, Suzanne Malveaux is at the White House.
And Suzanne, just yesterday the president was talking about this very thing that he expected there to be this kind of an up tick, this surge in violence during this news conference yesterday. And here we have another example of what he was describing. Twenty-two people dead, at the U.S. base in Mosul, a mixture of U.S. troops, Iraqi National Guardsmen and Iraqi civilians, it is just the kind of attack the president was talking about and warning about yesterday.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Tony, it really is part of a White House strategy to actually address that and to prepare the American people for things toe get much, worse, as you approach the Iraqi elections in late January. Spoke with a senior administration official this morning, who said this is a very serious situation.
It is not surprising, however, and President Bush's comments yesterday really is part of that strategy to put that forward. We heard some comments, very candid from the president that we had not heard before. We heard him talk about the real impact that he believes the insurgents had on this U.S./Iraqi mission to bring about Democratic elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No question about it. The bombers are having an effect. You know, these people are targeting innocent Iraqis. They're trying to shake the will of the Iraqi people, and frankly, trying to shake the will of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, the president also talked about a number of other things. He said, of course, when it came to the question about the lack of body armor for troops, the president, I'm quoting here, saying 'The whole command structure necessary to have a viable military is not in place." Acknowledging that needs to be improved.
The president, of course, also however defending his Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who has come under fire as of late, saying that he believes that this is a man who is a good man. That he is up for the task. I spoke with the senior administration official this morning who said that they really felt that this is a person who is a problem solver. That this is someone who he said is under the hood. That only second to the president, he wants this mission to work inside of Iraq.
And I should also let you know as well, that later today President Bush is going to be showing his support to the U.S. troops, when he visits those wounded soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center here in Washington. It's going to be his seventh visit. He is going to Fisher House. This is a place for families where they're able to say, where their loved ones recover from their injuries.
Very clearly the president, as well as many administration officials acknowledging and trying to get that message out to the American people that things are going to get worse as you approach those January elections.
HARRIS: And yet, Suzanne, against the backdrop of this attack in Mosul today, I remember yesterday, the president also saying the commanders on the ground were optimistic about their chances. That they felt that this was still a war that would be won, but that it would be hard work. And that we needed very much to stay the course. But that Iraqi police and military would have to step up, and that in some battles the president was absolutely disappointed with the response of some of those Iraqi forces.
MALVEAUX: well, Tony, as you know, this really is a very delicate balancing act for this president and for the administration. On the one hand, you heard yesterday President Bush acknowledging some of the difficulties. You heard him talking about the disappointment in some of those Iraqi troops at the Pentagon. That other people have been involved in training them, saying that they have not add all been prepared and sometimes even backing away from some of these conflicts.
But at the same time, the president pushing forward this sense of optimism. This message that look, we believe this is going to work bringing about democratic change. This is really a critical test, as you know, for this president.
HARRIS: OK. Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thank you.
KAGAN: And once again, we've been following this breaking news out of Iraq. Just outside of Mosul, an attack on a U.S. military facility, a base near Mosul. An attack on a dining hall there that we believe to be a tent. Twenty-two people known dead, that's a mixture of U.S. troops, and members of the Iraqi National Guard and Iraqi civilians. Also at least 51 people wounded in that attack.
We're not going to leave the story. We're going to bring you the latest on it. Also a lot of other news to get to today. We'll do that. Right now, a quick break right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We are going to get back to the story that is breaking out of Iraq. And that is on the attack on the military installation there. The U.S. military installation.
Another big story we're following here in the U.S. though. It concerns Kansas and Missouri. Funeral services are scheduled this morning for Bobbie Jo Stinnett. She was the pregnant woman who was strangled and whose child was then stolen from her womb. Today's private wake and funeral will be followed by a public burial.
HARRIS: The horrific murder of expectant mom Bobbie Jo Stinnett is shocking not just in detail, but in depth. Crimes against pregnant women are far more common than you might think, or for that matter, want to believe.
CNN's Mary Snow explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder with her 8-month-old baby pulled from her womb is a crime even seasoned psychiatrists deem deeply disturbing and rare. But they say what is not so rare is violence against pregnant women.
DR. CATHERINE BIRNDORF, N.Y. PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I think this brings attention to a really under addressed issue that is more of a trend than we would like to admit. I think the public doesn't like to hear about these things because it's so abominable.
SNOW: While the murder of Laci Peterson and her unborn baby were widely reported, homicides of pregnant women are not specifically tracked. But a "Washington Post" investigation found that since 1990, more than 1,300 pregnant women and new mothers were murdered. And a 2001 study in Maryland found homicide was the leading cause of death among pregnant women.
The report cites in most cases men committed the murders. In the few cases where women killed another woman for a baby, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Stone says he found a common thread. DR. MICHAEL STONE, COLUMBIA UNIV. MED. SCHOOL: The only thing I can think of that they all had in common was a desperate wish to be able to show the world that they had a child. Not all for the same reason. But the desperate wish to prove motherhood.
SNOW: Stone worked on a 1987 Oregon case, in which a woman used a car key to perform a cesarean. Doctors say that desperate wish to become pregnant can even convince some women they are expecting a child when they are not.
BIRNDORF: They can actually become somewhat swollen in the abdominal area, have belly swelling so that they appear somewhat pregnant. They may gain weight. Right? They may become nauseous, and vomit. And they can have breast tenderness. Then they convince themselves and people around them that they are, in fact, pregnant.
SNOW: Authorities say Lisa Montgomery, the suspect in Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder, had told people in past months that she had been pregnant and miscarried.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: We say authorities say that Lisa Montgomery has confessed to the killing, but the motives have not been entirely explained. That begs the question. Can such reasons ever really be explained?
For a little bit more understanding, let's turn to an expert in mental health. Dr. Charles Raison is an assistant professor of psychiatry at Emery University School of Medicine. And he's joining me from the campus here.
Dr. Raison, good morning.
DR. CHARLES RAISON, ASST. PROF. PSYC., EMERY UNIV.: Good morning.
KAGAN: What could possibly encourage or make a woman go to these lengths to try to get a baby?
RAISON: Well, you know, it's interesting. I think what the people were talking about just a second ago, suggests something that it may be relevant to this case. Which is although we don't have enough details to know for sure there ask this report that Miss Montgomery believed that she was pregnant.
And there's a condition called psuedocyesis, where as they mentioned, women will begin to show some physical changes of pregnancy and become convinced, sometimes delusionally that they're pregnant.
So again, that hasn't completely come out. But as I look at the case, there's that little hint of this. And it makes you think that that's probably the leading contender at this point for an explanation.
KAGAN: There was also reports that Montgomery had had a miscarriage not that long ago. Is this usually tied to that or to a woman who's desperately seeking a baby?
RAISON: Both, I think. It's a complicated thing. We don't know -- it's interesting. We don't know a lot about this as psychiatrists because it doesn't happen very often fortunately. But we do know that women who have miscarriages will often get profoundly depressed and have a lot of trouble with it and have a lot of mourning. So it certainly is consistent.
That is consistent with the idea that that may have been a spur in this case. On the other hand, I've heard reports, and again, none of this confirmed. but that she may not have miscarried, that may have also been...
KAGAN: Hmm. A pretend pregnancy?
RAISON: Yes. I mean what's striking about this case is there is so much premeditated planning. As a psychiatrist, when we hear cases you may remember Andrea Yates, the woman in Houston. From a psychiatric point of view, that case is very clear. The woman had a very clear postpartum psychotic disorder. And she wasn't rational. And we as psychiatrists see this all the time. But what's unusual about this case is that the woman was rational in so many other ways.
KAGAN: It would appear -- which leads to as we watch her make a court appearance yesterday and then later this week, does this build to a possible insanity defense?
RAISON: Oh, yes. I think so. I mean if I was her lawyer I would certainly be trying to flesh that part of the story out. Because I mean, even though there was all this rational planning and everything, you know, in the colloquial sense it seems crazy. I mean it's such a bizarre and horrible story. And the woman never had done anything else in her life to indicate that, you know, that she was a criminal or anything like that.
So, yes, I mean it's -- but it's not insanity again like somebody that say has schizophrenia or is acting in odd ways all across their life. I think what's upset people so much here is that this seemed to be a normal women who premeditatedly did this. But again, there is this report that she had this belief and probably delusional, that she was pregnant.
KAGAN: Still much more to learn. Doctor Charles Raison from Emery, thank you...
RAISON: Sure.
KAGAN: ... so much.
We're going to have more on this story. More on the funeral services for Bobbie Jo Stinnett. Also, more on the progress of the baby. That's ahead.
Also, we continue to follow the story out of Mosul, Iraq. The attack on the U.S. military installation, a number dead and wounded. We'll get to that after this break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired December 21, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Let's get started.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Let's get started.
A bloody reminded of the constant danger of Americans, four troops there in Iraq, insurgents attacked a U.S. military near Mosul today killing 22 people. We got first word of the attack a short time ago from the Pentagon.
That's where CNN's Elaine Quijano is.
Elaine, what is the latest you can share with us? Elaine can you hear me?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Tony, I'm having difficulty hearing you.
HARRIS: OK.
QUIJANO: But just to recap, we know from Pentagon officials, again this attack coming around 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time, an unknown number of explosive rounds hitting a dining hall. Now, this again was at the Forward Operating Base Marez reports that 22 people were killed, 51 wounded. Again, this a mixture of U.S. troops, Iraqi National Guard and civilian contractors. But at this particular point, we do not have a breakdown.
Now, we understand that within Task Force Olympia, the U.S. Army group there, there are 10,000 U.S. troops. And of that 10,000 there's a Striker Brigade which is about 5,000 troops from Fort Lewis, Washington. Now, we should also emphasize the rest is support troops from all over the country. And even though that main military force, that Striker Brigade is from Fort Lewis, there are indeed military personnel from all over.
The Iraqi National Guard, of course, also working with U.S. troops in that area. But we do not yet have a number on exactly how large that Iraqi force is. We should also emphasize that Mosul was relatively calm at one point after the invasion. The 101 was in charge there, responsible for helping to get projects there under way. But after the Falluja operation there was, in fact, an up tick in the violence in Mosul.
But again, this latest attack, Pentagon officials are saying 22 people killed, 51 wounded -- Tony. HARRIS: And Elaine, let's revisit some of that history. You mentioned it and absolutely correctly that right after the attacks and the work of the U.S. forces in Falluja, there was a sense that there was movement of the insurgency up to Mosul. And initially there were attacks on all kinds of Iraqi military there, police and National Guard. And this seems to be a continuation of that.
QUIJANO: Well, certainly. When you take a step back from this and look at really the larger strategy. The U.S.' hope is that they eventually, of course, want to turn over the security responsibilities to the Iraqi people themselves. To the Iraqi security forces themselves. Well just yesterday, we heard President Bush talking about how they're, in fact, even though there has been progress made, there in fact have been some bumps in the road. Notably when some of those Iraqi forces called upon to fight leaving the battlefield. President Bush saying yesterday that is simply unacceptable. So definitely a lot of challenges lie ahead.
But just last week, General Casey was here talking about -- he's in charge of the multi national forces, he was saying there has been, as far as he could tell, progress made. But he acknowledged that there is still a long way to go. So that is an important piece of the U.S.' strategy. Whether or not, obviously the Iraqis are going to be able to take control of their own security responsibility.
HARRIS: And that's exactly the point, Elaine, as we think back to the comments from the president yesterday in his lengthy news conference. That is a point that he stretched. That the Iraqi military and the Iraqi National Guard and police there at some point have to take over this job of protecting their own country. And I think the word that he used is that to this point there has been "mixed results." A mixed outcome in terms of how well these forces have been doing there.
QUIJANO: Well, that's exactly right. And the lead-up obviously to all of this is the January 30 deadline, the elections. That is really seen as the main focus here at the Pentagon. Planners looking to try and secure, obviously the areas where they have military forces so that people can, in fact, go to the polls.
But beyond that, obviously there are still a lot of unanswered questions. What will the U.S.' role be? But they are mainly looking at making sure that elections are carried off successfully. And that as far as the Bush administration is concerned, again, a major piece of the strategy. The president saying yesterday that Americans and the world really should look at it as a very beginning step, really. Not necessarily end. But the beginning of the process the movement towards democracy in Iraq. The administration hopes.
HARRIS: OK, Elaine stand by. We'll come back to you, of course, as we continue to follow this story.
Let's bring Daryn in.
KAGAN: That we do.
I'd also like to welcome our viewers that are joining us around the world on CNN International.
Right now, we want to go live to Baghdad for come background on the attack that took place later today on the U.S. military.
Our Karl Penhaul is in the Iraqi capital.
Karl, hello.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there. From what we can detail from sources so far is that this was multiple rounds that landed on a dining facility in Camp Marez in Mosul. They haven't detailed so far whether these were rockets or mortars. Depending on what kind of artillery shells were used though, it would also dictate how far away from the point of impact those insurgents were.
We know in the past that insurgents have used 105-millimeter artillery shells in homemade launchers. Those artillery shells can fly anything up to about up to 17 miles. If it were a mortar or something like that the range would be somewhat less, probably six or seven miles out. No confirmation yet though from military sources what kinds of devices were used, though.
But talking to one of our CNN photographers, Gabe Ramirez, he was up on that base about three or four weeks ago now. and he's described to me what that dining hall is like. And he says it is a very large tent facility. But it is a soft-skinned building. No hardened protection there.
And he says at meal times, as this was, he said there was seating for about four or 500 soldiers in there. Of course that wouldn't necessarily all be full all of the time, depending on what number of solders were out on patrol.
But he said it was a large, a very comfortable facility. But no hardened protection there at all. And he does say that in his conversations with soldiers during his time at that base, many of them did say and suggest that this was an accident waiting to happen. Because yes, the insurgents obviously knew of the existence of that base and would target it with mortars and rockets. But the soldiers felt they were at risk precisely because they would mass in that one building at certain times of day. And that it could be a potential insurgent target.
KAGAN: And Karl, tell us more about the Mosul area and what surrounds it. There are a number of Sunnis, a number of Saddam loyalists in that area.
PENHAUL: Well, really, Mosul came back to prominence when the Falluja offensive kicked off in the start of November. At that point, Mosul had been calm for a relative lengthy spell. But when the Falluja offensive began, we did see some of the violence displacing there.
That led U.S. military commanders to suggest that some of the insurgents may have fled Falluja, and gone to Mosul to start up trouble there. Or that simply, other insurgent cells in Mosul may have been stepping up attacks in that area, to try and divert coalition firepower away from Falluja.
But certainly through much of November and part of November -- December, rather, we have seen multiple insurgent attacks in Mosul, particularly centered on police stations there. At one point, insurgents had overrun in excess of 10 or 15 police stations in Mosul. And at many points, the police would simply not stand and fight they would run away. That probably a reflection of lack of discipline and also to some extent lack of training. There were also suggestions at the time that the police may, in fact, be infiltrated by the insurgents. And that's why they would simply hand over or lay down their weapons and run away.
There's also been speculation as well by U.S. military commanders that part of the Abu Musab al Zarqawi terrorist network had taken up roots in Mosul after it was displaced from Falluja. That's not to say Zarqawi himself was based there. But certainly fighters loyal to him.
KAGAN: All right. Karl Penhaul in Baghdad, thank you. We'll be getting back to you.
For our viewers joining us we're following a story outside of Mosul. An attack on a U.S. military base there. We know of 22 people who have been killed. This includes U.S. troops, members of the Iraqi National Guard and Iraqi civilians. That's according to Pentagon officials. Also we're hearing as many as 51 people wounded in this incident. It took place at noon local time 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time -- Tony.
Let's get Ken Pollack's perspective. Ken Pollack is a CNN analyst, of course. He's also with the Saban Center of the Brookings Institute.
Ken, good morning.
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Good morning, Tony. How are you?
HARRIS: Good. Well, give us a sense of this insurgency as it is currently constituted in your mind. Foreign fighters, mostly Iraqis, Sunnis? Break it down and sort of cast the face of this insurgency if you would, please.
POLLACK: Sure, Tony. The first thing to keep in mind is that this is a rather broad insurgency. There are a lot of people who are taking shots at the Americans and the Iraqi government inside of Iraq. But in terms of the most important component, there is no question that by far the most important component of this insurgency are Sunni tribesmen. The heart of Saddam's old regime. Percentage of Iraq's population, probably no more than five or 10 percent of Iraq's population.
But they control a huge chunk of territory in western and northwestern Iraq. They feel completely dispossessed by the reconstruction. They feel alienated from the political rebuilding process that's going on. They think that what the United States is trying to do is to build a Shia-Kurdish government that will oppress them, just as they oppressed the Shia and the Kurds for the past 30 years. That's why they are fighting us. And until we deal with that problem, I think you're going to see this insurgency get worse and worse.
HARRIS: Well, Ken, the obvious next question is how do you deal with it? What do we do? How do we deal with it?
POLLACK: Yes. It's -- there's no question it is a tall order. But I still have reason to be optimistic about it. There are ways to deal with the Sunni community. The most important thing is you need to convince the tribal sheikhs. And again, the people we're talking about still function within a tribal structure. They still are fairly responsive to their tribal sheikhs. You need to convince the tribal sheikhs that they are going to be important members of Iraq's new political order.
Their people are not going to be oppressed the way that they oppress the Shia and the Kurds. Their people are going to have economic benefits, just like every other Iraqi. They're going to be brought into the process. Beyond that, there needs to be a broader process of education among the Sunnis. To make them aware of what this new government is going to look like. And beyond that, you need to get economic resources out into the Sunni hinterland.
Now, this has been a problem all across Iraq. So it's not like the U.S. has been particularly negligent of the Sunni areas. But in this case, because of the problem with the Sunnis, I think it behooves the United States to pay extra attention to getting those economic resources out into this part of the country, to make this community feel like they're going to be reasonably well-off, at least comfortable.
HARRIS: OK. Ken, they want to be stakeholders. They want to feel like they have a voice at the table. But they're outnumbered. So how much of a voice -- are they more accurately figuring out where they -- their place in this whole dance that's going on over there?
POLLACK: Yes, it's an excellent point, Tony, because you're right. Obviously there are Sunnis there who want to be the majority in Iraq. Honestly, there are many Iraqi Sunnis who believe that they are in the majority in Iraq now. We obviously need to do a census. But it looks like that is not the case.
But what we need to convince them of is that in this new Iraq that the United States is trying to build, if it succeeds, Iraq will be so much more prosperous than it was under Saddam. That while their relative stake may not be as big as it was under Saddam, in an absolute sense they will be far, far better off than they were under Saddam. That's really the key.
And I think if we can do that we can turn around a lot of Sunnis. Our mistake has been that we have mostly ignored this section of the population. We've mostly concentrated on the Shia and the Kurds. That sent the wrong message.
HARRIS: OK. Ken Pollack, stand by, please. And we'll get back to you in just a couple of minutes. KAGAN: And before we get back to Ken, we want to go to London, bring in our Nic Robertson. He has spent a lot of time in Iraq, especially in the Mosul area, embedded at one point with the U.S. military. A different base than the one attacked today.
And yet, Nic, you can give us an idea of the area and the insurgency that the U.S. military and Iraqi national forces are fighting in that part of the world.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INT'L. CORRESPONDENT: Well, the insurgency, when it comes to targeting the bases is certainly one that's been very, very active. In the time that I was there, about three or four weeks ago, there were attacks perhaps every other day, maybe for a period of two or three days and nothing for a couple of days. The way those attacks would come, it would either be rockets or mortars fired into the bases. They would generally it seems without particular aim more sort of harassing fire to get into the base.
It was interesting that they often seemed to try and fire, however, at times around meal times, perhaps when soldiers would be gathered to get their meals. Middle of the day, late in the afternoon. Those seem to be the typical times when these rounds would come in. On the base I was at, all around the base were places, secure little shelters for troops to hide in should there be an attack in this nature.
But it was one of the focuses for the troops there. Obviously they have many, many roles. Supporting the Iraqi support forces, the police in the city, dealing with the attacks that they get out on the streets. Doing raids to try and track down insurgents. But one of the other key parts of their daily work was to figure out where the insurgents were attacking them from.
That was made difficult, they told me, because in some cases, there were literally -- insurgents would literally jump out of a vehicle with a mortar, fire a mortar into the base and drive off. Very inaccurate, but nevertheless in terms of harassing the troops there's an effect there.
KAGAN: Well, also what about the kind of support they were getting from the Mosul community that the insurgents would be getting? This is Sunni territory. This was Saddam-friendly territory. This is where his sons were found in this area last year.
ROBERTSON: That's correct. There were certain areas in Mosul where the multi-national force, particularly the U.S. troops or the Striker Brigade Task Force Olympia could move about on foot through the streets. Some people could greet them. Some people would just watch them go by. But where the troops could operate on foot, on patrol fairly easily and readily. Not without danger but fairly easily.
There are other areas of the city that present a much greater threat to the troops. And typically those define themselves in two types of areas. One, a more up market, middle class type of area where I'm told by the troops the houses tended to be owned in the past by senior Baath Party officials, larger houses.
Houses that are very often the focus for raids these days, where the troops believe that the people living in those houses, the former Baath Party officials are behind the insurgency. Motivating, funding, organizing, part of the intimidation campaign against the people of Mosul to try and prevent them voting.
The other area that is particularly active against the coalition as they go out on the streets in their vehicles, are some of the poorer neighborhoods on the western side of Mosul. Some of those leaning towards the western fringes of Mosul. And those have been for the coalition some of the most dangerous. Ambushes, roadside bombs, multiple coordinated attacks just about two weeks ago. There was a very large attack on U.S. troops. They returned and put down that attack killing at least 12 insurgents.
But it's -- but it is -- Mosul is still -- is still a very difficult place for the coalition to do the job of helping to rebuild the city and the civil infrastructures that they want to do. And it makes it very, very difficult for them to convince the police, many of whom have been scared out of their jobs there in Mosul, to convince the police to go back into their police stations, to remain at their posts, to afford the police protection when they're attacked.
And these have been the primary functions of the troops, to ensure that the security of the city is maintained. But those different areas, the middle-class former Baathist areas and those -- some of the poorer neighborhoods really the most dangerous for the troops -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Nic Robertson in London. Nic, thank you.
HARRIS: And Daryn, Suzanne Malveaux is at the White House.
And Suzanne, just yesterday the president was talking about this very thing that he expected there to be this kind of an up tick, this surge in violence during this news conference yesterday. And here we have another example of what he was describing. Twenty-two people dead, at the U.S. base in Mosul, a mixture of U.S. troops, Iraqi National Guardsmen and Iraqi civilians, it is just the kind of attack the president was talking about and warning about yesterday.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Tony, it really is part of a White House strategy to actually address that and to prepare the American people for things toe get much, worse, as you approach the Iraqi elections in late January. Spoke with a senior administration official this morning, who said this is a very serious situation.
It is not surprising, however, and President Bush's comments yesterday really is part of that strategy to put that forward. We heard some comments, very candid from the president that we had not heard before. We heard him talk about the real impact that he believes the insurgents had on this U.S./Iraqi mission to bring about Democratic elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No question about it. The bombers are having an effect. You know, these people are targeting innocent Iraqis. They're trying to shake the will of the Iraqi people, and frankly, trying to shake the will of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, the president also talked about a number of other things. He said, of course, when it came to the question about the lack of body armor for troops, the president, I'm quoting here, saying 'The whole command structure necessary to have a viable military is not in place." Acknowledging that needs to be improved.
The president, of course, also however defending his Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who has come under fire as of late, saying that he believes that this is a man who is a good man. That he is up for the task. I spoke with the senior administration official this morning who said that they really felt that this is a person who is a problem solver. That this is someone who he said is under the hood. That only second to the president, he wants this mission to work inside of Iraq.
And I should also let you know as well, that later today President Bush is going to be showing his support to the U.S. troops, when he visits those wounded soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center here in Washington. It's going to be his seventh visit. He is going to Fisher House. This is a place for families where they're able to say, where their loved ones recover from their injuries.
Very clearly the president, as well as many administration officials acknowledging and trying to get that message out to the American people that things are going to get worse as you approach those January elections.
HARRIS: And yet, Suzanne, against the backdrop of this attack in Mosul today, I remember yesterday, the president also saying the commanders on the ground were optimistic about their chances. That they felt that this was still a war that would be won, but that it would be hard work. And that we needed very much to stay the course. But that Iraqi police and military would have to step up, and that in some battles the president was absolutely disappointed with the response of some of those Iraqi forces.
MALVEAUX: well, Tony, as you know, this really is a very delicate balancing act for this president and for the administration. On the one hand, you heard yesterday President Bush acknowledging some of the difficulties. You heard him talking about the disappointment in some of those Iraqi troops at the Pentagon. That other people have been involved in training them, saying that they have not add all been prepared and sometimes even backing away from some of these conflicts.
But at the same time, the president pushing forward this sense of optimism. This message that look, we believe this is going to work bringing about democratic change. This is really a critical test, as you know, for this president.
HARRIS: OK. Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thank you.
KAGAN: And once again, we've been following this breaking news out of Iraq. Just outside of Mosul, an attack on a U.S. military facility, a base near Mosul. An attack on a dining hall there that we believe to be a tent. Twenty-two people known dead, that's a mixture of U.S. troops, and members of the Iraqi National Guard and Iraqi civilians. Also at least 51 people wounded in that attack.
We're not going to leave the story. We're going to bring you the latest on it. Also a lot of other news to get to today. We'll do that. Right now, a quick break right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We are going to get back to the story that is breaking out of Iraq. And that is on the attack on the military installation there. The U.S. military installation.
Another big story we're following here in the U.S. though. It concerns Kansas and Missouri. Funeral services are scheduled this morning for Bobbie Jo Stinnett. She was the pregnant woman who was strangled and whose child was then stolen from her womb. Today's private wake and funeral will be followed by a public burial.
HARRIS: The horrific murder of expectant mom Bobbie Jo Stinnett is shocking not just in detail, but in depth. Crimes against pregnant women are far more common than you might think, or for that matter, want to believe.
CNN's Mary Snow explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder with her 8-month-old baby pulled from her womb is a crime even seasoned psychiatrists deem deeply disturbing and rare. But they say what is not so rare is violence against pregnant women.
DR. CATHERINE BIRNDORF, N.Y. PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I think this brings attention to a really under addressed issue that is more of a trend than we would like to admit. I think the public doesn't like to hear about these things because it's so abominable.
SNOW: While the murder of Laci Peterson and her unborn baby were widely reported, homicides of pregnant women are not specifically tracked. But a "Washington Post" investigation found that since 1990, more than 1,300 pregnant women and new mothers were murdered. And a 2001 study in Maryland found homicide was the leading cause of death among pregnant women.
The report cites in most cases men committed the murders. In the few cases where women killed another woman for a baby, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Stone says he found a common thread. DR. MICHAEL STONE, COLUMBIA UNIV. MED. SCHOOL: The only thing I can think of that they all had in common was a desperate wish to be able to show the world that they had a child. Not all for the same reason. But the desperate wish to prove motherhood.
SNOW: Stone worked on a 1987 Oregon case, in which a woman used a car key to perform a cesarean. Doctors say that desperate wish to become pregnant can even convince some women they are expecting a child when they are not.
BIRNDORF: They can actually become somewhat swollen in the abdominal area, have belly swelling so that they appear somewhat pregnant. They may gain weight. Right? They may become nauseous, and vomit. And they can have breast tenderness. Then they convince themselves and people around them that they are, in fact, pregnant.
SNOW: Authorities say Lisa Montgomery, the suspect in Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder, had told people in past months that she had been pregnant and miscarried.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: We say authorities say that Lisa Montgomery has confessed to the killing, but the motives have not been entirely explained. That begs the question. Can such reasons ever really be explained?
For a little bit more understanding, let's turn to an expert in mental health. Dr. Charles Raison is an assistant professor of psychiatry at Emery University School of Medicine. And he's joining me from the campus here.
Dr. Raison, good morning.
DR. CHARLES RAISON, ASST. PROF. PSYC., EMERY UNIV.: Good morning.
KAGAN: What could possibly encourage or make a woman go to these lengths to try to get a baby?
RAISON: Well, you know, it's interesting. I think what the people were talking about just a second ago, suggests something that it may be relevant to this case. Which is although we don't have enough details to know for sure there ask this report that Miss Montgomery believed that she was pregnant.
And there's a condition called psuedocyesis, where as they mentioned, women will begin to show some physical changes of pregnancy and become convinced, sometimes delusionally that they're pregnant.
So again, that hasn't completely come out. But as I look at the case, there's that little hint of this. And it makes you think that that's probably the leading contender at this point for an explanation.
KAGAN: There was also reports that Montgomery had had a miscarriage not that long ago. Is this usually tied to that or to a woman who's desperately seeking a baby?
RAISON: Both, I think. It's a complicated thing. We don't know -- it's interesting. We don't know a lot about this as psychiatrists because it doesn't happen very often fortunately. But we do know that women who have miscarriages will often get profoundly depressed and have a lot of trouble with it and have a lot of mourning. So it certainly is consistent.
That is consistent with the idea that that may have been a spur in this case. On the other hand, I've heard reports, and again, none of this confirmed. but that she may not have miscarried, that may have also been...
KAGAN: Hmm. A pretend pregnancy?
RAISON: Yes. I mean what's striking about this case is there is so much premeditated planning. As a psychiatrist, when we hear cases you may remember Andrea Yates, the woman in Houston. From a psychiatric point of view, that case is very clear. The woman had a very clear postpartum psychotic disorder. And she wasn't rational. And we as psychiatrists see this all the time. But what's unusual about this case is that the woman was rational in so many other ways.
KAGAN: It would appear -- which leads to as we watch her make a court appearance yesterday and then later this week, does this build to a possible insanity defense?
RAISON: Oh, yes. I think so. I mean if I was her lawyer I would certainly be trying to flesh that part of the story out. Because I mean, even though there was all this rational planning and everything, you know, in the colloquial sense it seems crazy. I mean it's such a bizarre and horrible story. And the woman never had done anything else in her life to indicate that, you know, that she was a criminal or anything like that.
So, yes, I mean it's -- but it's not insanity again like somebody that say has schizophrenia or is acting in odd ways all across their life. I think what's upset people so much here is that this seemed to be a normal women who premeditatedly did this. But again, there is this report that she had this belief and probably delusional, that she was pregnant.
KAGAN: Still much more to learn. Doctor Charles Raison from Emery, thank you...
RAISON: Sure.
KAGAN: ... so much.
We're going to have more on this story. More on the funeral services for Bobbie Jo Stinnett. Also, more on the progress of the baby. That's ahead.
Also, we continue to follow the story out of Mosul, Iraq. The attack on the U.S. military installation, a number dead and wounded. We'll get to that after this break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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