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CNN Live Today
Steroids Subpoenas; Judge Issues Bench Warrant for Michael Jackson Because He's Late
Aired March 10, 2005 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Daryn Kagan. Let's take a look what's happening now in the news. Shiite and Kurdish negotiators announced just a short while ago they have reached a deal, one that will allow the newly elected Iraqi National Assembly to name a government when it meets next week. Conservative Shiite Ibrahim al Jaafari is widely seen as the favorite for prime minister. The Kurds are expected to get the more ceremonial presidential post.
Meanwhile, also in Iraq, though, a suicide bomber blew himself up during a funeral procession in the Iraqi city of Mosul just a short while ago. Officials telling CNN at least 26 people have been killed and 27 others wounded.
President Bush is talking up Social Security today. He has scheduled an event taking place soon in Louisville, Kentucky, and this afternoon he travels to Montgomery, Alabama. The president spends the night in Memphis, Tennessee for another Social Security event tomorrow.
And filing for personal bankruptcy could get a lot harder under a bill the Senate is expected to vote on today. The bill aims to force people who are able to repay their debts to meet those obligations. The House will likely take up the measure after Easter.
And in Madrid, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan just a short time ago delivering the keynote address at a global anti-terrorism conference. As he noted one of the biggest challenges has been coming up with a workable definition of terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: I regret that international human rights experts, including those of the U.N. system, are unanimous in finding that many measures where states are currently adopting to counter terrorism infringe on human rights and fundamental freedoms. Human rights law makes ample provision for counterterrorist action, even in the most exceptional circumstances, but compromising human rights cannot serve the struggle against terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Tomorrow marks the first anniversary of the Madrid commuter train attack, which killed 191 people.
To Capitol Hill now, where Congress is taking a look at steroids in sports today. Two House subcommittees are questioning several people across the sports spectrum from the high school level all the way the Major Leagues. But the real fireworks might come next week. That's when another House committee has issued subpoenas for 11 big name baseball stars to testify next Thursday. The league, though, says it is fighting those subpoenas in court if necessary.
Here now CNN's congressional correspondent, Ed Henry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CONGRESSIONAL CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire forged a bond during the celebrated summer of '98 when they each surpassed the previous record for home runs in a season. Now, they're linked again, both slapped with subpoenas from a congressional committee probing whether their home run chase was fueled by more than just Mother Nature.
Also on the hit list, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Curt Schilling, Frank Thomas and Jose Canseco. Canseco wants to testify, perhaps so he can discuss his explosive new book that claims he used steroids with McGwire and others. Schilling has spoken out against steroids and Thomas has said this is a problem baseball must face.
FRANK THOMAS, CHICAGO WHITE SOCKS: I told people before, I've got nothing to hide. So if they subpoena us, they subpoena us. And I'll stick by my word. It's an honor to go there.
HENRY: But Major League Baseball officials are swinging back at Congress, insisting they'll fight the subpoenas because the committee does not have legal jurisdiction. Baseball officials also say forcing players like Giambi to testify on Capitol Hill next Thursday could taint the federal judge probe of BALCO Laboratories, which allegedly provided steroids to various athletes. Giambi reportedly told the grand jury he used steroids, though publicly he's been vague about the case that's dominated the early days of spring training.
JASON GIAMBI, NEW YORK YANKEES: I know there's been a lot of distractions, you know, over the past year and I wanted to apologize for all those, you know, distractions, from the bottom of my heart. You know, I take full responsibility for it and I'm sorry.
HENRY: In a letter to the Congressional panel, Major League Baseball's lawyer lashed out at separate subpoena seeking the results of player drug tests. He wrote: "The right to privacy outweighs any asserted interest in the health problems stemming from the use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs."
An aide to House Government Reform Chairman Tom Davis, who issued the subpoenas, fired back the panel does have legal authority, saying it's sad that they've resorted to legalese, and inaccurate legalese at that.
And despite baseball's push to block testimony, there are indications players like Sosa may come forward on their own. The stakes have been raised because a failure to testify could result in charges of contempt of Congress. An agent for Sosa told CNN that after respectfully declining the panel's initial invitation, the slugger now will "take a second look and make the right choice."
Ed Henry, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And here's a look at what's on our legal docket for today. Jurors in the trial of former WorldCom chief Bernie Ebbers return for a fifth day of deliberations. Yesterday the judge told them they could convict Ebbers without the supplemental charges included in the indictment. Ebbers is being tried on charges of orchestrating the massive accounting scheme that led to WorldCom's bankruptcy.
There is still no verdict in the trial of former "Baretta" star Robert Blake. Jurors resume deliberations later this morning. They've asked for testimony to review from three people before wrapping up yesterday. Blake is accused of killing his wife Bonny Lee Bakley in 2001.
Michael Jackson's accuser returns to the witness stand this hour. Jurors seemed very attentive as the boy described the first time he met the pop star, his time at Neverland Ranch and also, his cancer treatment. Today, though, prosecutors are likely to delve into the nitty-gritty of alleged molestation.
Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin keeping a close watch on the trial. He has been in the courtroom, but joins us from New York City this morning. Jeffrey, good morning.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Daryn.
KAGAN: How much does the credibility of this young man, this 15- year-old, how much does the case rely on how he does on that stand?
TOOBIN: Close to 100 percent, Daryn. I think this is the make- or-break witness for the prosecution. The brother of the accuser, the sister of the accuser, turned out to be pretty weak witnesses. The corroboration was not very strong. However, if the jury believes the accuser himself, everything else is irrelevant and Michael Jackson is going to be convicted.
KAGAN: Want to talk about the brother a little bit. He had lurid details of what he said took place during their visit to Neverland. But Thomas Mesereau, the defense attorney, also got him on the witness stand to admit he has lied under oath before. Did that basically throw out the testimony?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, you never know, because jurors often are sympathetic to children who are witnesses, because they say, well, kids get confused, they don't know -- they don't have the same sort of sense of chronology that adults might. So it is possible that that cross-examination wasn't as effective with the jury as we thought.
However, you know, as these things go, it was a very effective cross-examination where he established that -- the younger brother had told different stories, and admitted lying in certain circumstances. And Ted Rowlands, our colleague out there, told me yesterday that jurors were actually laughing at the younger brother at one point. So that can't be good for the prosecution.
KAGAN: This is about the time of day when we see the live pictures from Santa Maria of Michael Jackson arrived at the courthouse. We're getting word now from our CNN sources at the courthouse, he has not arrived yet. So we're working on finding out why. He's been very good at being on time since that first appearance over a year ago when he was very, late. I want to ask you, though, Jeff, about -- because you were in the courtroom, was it earlier this week or last week?
TOOBIN: Last week.
KAGAN: Last week during jury selection. Michael Jackson in the courtroom at that time when you there were?
TOOBIN: He was, sure. It was actually opening statements in the first couple witnesses.
KAGAN: And what was his presence like in that courtroom, and what effect do you think it had?
TOOBIN: He's a tiny person, Daryn. It's really very surprising to see him in person. He's actually about 5'10. He's not short by any means, but he is so slight and small. He is a riveting person to look at. First of all, as everyone knows, he's just so odd looking with his, you know, these costumes he wears. I wouldn't even call it clothes. And his skin is this unearthly pallor of kind of gray, and his nose is all, you know, messed up, as we know.
However, he moves like the dancer that he is. He's a very graceful person, and it's just hypnotizing to look at him. And I think the jurors were actually almost forcing themselves not to look at him because you couldn't -- they didn't want to seem like they were gaping. But I'm sure by the end of the trial, they will have spent a lot of time studying him and his reactions to the testimony.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the two lead attorneys in this case. First the prosecutor, Tom Sneddon. He was the D.A. in Santa Barbara County back when I worked in Santa Barbara and that was quite a few years ago. Quite a few years ago.
TOOBIN: Well, you're -- you know, barely out of your 20s, Daryn so it couldn't be that long. But the -- you know, he has been there a long time, and he is the boss of the office, not used to trying a lot of cases. He doesn't try as many cases as a line assistant does. And that's shown, frankly. His opening statement was pretty weak. It was disorganized. He has not been a terrific courtroom presence. So, you know, I think the early advantage in terms of the lawyering very much goes to the defense.
KAGAN: And let's talk about Tom Meserau. What kind of presence does he have in that courtroom?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think he's really done an excellent job. First of all, he's a very striking man. He's -- you know, he's got that big mane of gray hair. He used to be a football player when he went to Harvard. So he's a -- you know, he's still got that big, you know, bearing. I see him there on the screen.
KAGAN: Yes, and let's talk about the live pictures, because here's Tom Mesereau outside the courthouse, at a time you expect him to be inside the courthouse, on the cell phone. Perhaps he is trying to get information exactly where his client is at this time.
TOOBIN: He's got the expression on his face, of -- he's making a where-the-heck-are-you phone call. But you know, I certainly don't know. It's -- you know, Mike -- remember, one week of..
KAGAN: OK, Jeff, hold on one second, because our Miguel Marquez is there in Santa Maria. So, Jeff, you stand by.
Let's go to Miguel. What do you know about the whereabouts, or lack of whereabouts of Michael Jackson, Miguel?
MARQUEZ: We understand, Tom Mesereau, Jr., his attorney, says he's been taken to Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara for an unknown back problem, apparently.
Mr. Jackson -- a bench warrant has been issued and held, though, for one hour. Apparently, he has one hour to get here. His bail has been forfeited, but he does have an hour to get here. Otherwise, he will be arrested and remanded into custody. Mr. Mesereau, Mr. Jackson's attorney, said he has this a back problem, but will make every effort to be here in one hour.
Here's the problem, though: Cottage Hospital is in Santa Barbara, California, which is about an hour south of here. It is now 8:40 a.m. Pacific Time. If he's not here by 9:30 Pacific Time, he's in trouble. It's about an hour's drive. I don't see how he makes it.
KAGAN: I was going to talk about the geography because I used to live in Santa Barbara. When you said that, my first thought is, you can't get from Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara up to Santa Maria. I don't think people really appreciate the geography of just how large Santa Barbara is, and how it is from the city of Santa Barbara -- Santa Ynez (ah), the valley where Michael Jackson's ranch is -- and then to Santa Maria. These are very far apart places.
MARQUEZ: They are very far apart places and this would be the second time Mr. Jackson has done this, and this judge is not to be trifled with on these matters. He wants things moving along at his pace, which is quickly, and Mr. Jackson, late on his first day in court, he was admonished by the judge, he got sick a second time, the judge cut him slack. This time the judge seem to be cutting no slack whatsoever. His bail forfeited and bail warrant issued but held for at least one -- for one hour -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And what is the court schedule here, Miguel? Is there court scheduled for tomorrow at this point? Because, if not, then the accuser is going to have to wait until Monday to continue testimony. MARQUEZ: The court schedule is in motions tomorrow. So there would be no jury, there'd be no testimony tomorrow. It would be a day of motions, which are going to be, probably some, a fairly heavy day of motions, and then Monday, the accuser would be probably -- we'd expect that the accuser would be back up on the stand during cross- examination, but now if Mr. Jackson doesn't show today, he'll be back on the stand for direct examination by the prosecution.
KAGAN: All right.
Jeff Toobin, let's bring you back in here. Miguel was making mention of the judge in this case. This has been a no-nonsense judge, clearly not pleased by the actions of today.
TOOBIN: Yes. You know, Daryn, I was in the courtroom on the day of his arraignment when he was late. That was also the day at the end of the proceedings when he danced on top of the car and was a complete circus. Judge Melville was furious about him being late. He says you've gotten off to a bad start with me Mr. Jackson. It was a memorable outburst by the judge. Obviously, that is still sticking in the judge's craw, and he warned Michael Jackson in the course of these proceedings, don't be late again. Here he's been late again.
This is the kind of thing that works itself out. But Tom Mesereau better stay on the cell phone and have either Michael Jackson in court or some awfully good medical excuse for why he's not there.
KAGAN: Can this testimony go on without him not in the courtroom?
TOOBIN: Basically, no. There are circumstances where the defendant can waive, but he has to be there to waive it. So , almost certainly, the day's testimony will be put off and I think, you know, the jury is not supposed to be following this in the press, not supposed to be reading it, but this kind of delay at such a critical moment in the trial will strike some people as -- as gamesmanship on Jackson's part. And you know, it's another reason why the judge will be especially irritated that this day of all days is the day he doesn't come to court.
KAGAN: If you're going to cut Michael Jackson a break, he really has back problem, he really should be in the hospital in Santa Barbara. Other end of the spectrum, cynicism: it's a tactic. What about the impact of what you're doing to this 15-year-old boy, as you were just explaining, the credibility, his credibility of his testimony is what this case hinges on for the prosecution. What you do for this kid, who is about to talk about these molestations, accusations, and make him wait, all the way until Monday.
TOOBIN: You know, it is dirty pool, but it's not likely to be very effective. The direct and cross-examination would certainly have lasted into next week under all circumstance so it's not like this young boy or young man was going to get the weekend off in any case, so it's not -- the gamesmanship couldn't be that effective. But, you know, it is a sleazy thing, if it's under Jackson's control. I think in fairness to him, we have to find out what the medical evidence is, whether this is a legitimate medical problem. Remember, what delayed jury selection was what was called flu-like syndromes, flu-like symptoms, which in English to me sounds like a cold. It wasn't exactly a major medical problem. Again, these back problems, we'll see if there's a legitimate explanation.
KAGAN: OK, you stay with us, Jeff. Want to bring Miguel Marquez back in here, live, from Santa Maria, about what we know, about what time Michael Jackson was supposed to be in court, and the actions the judge has now taken.
MARQUEZ: Michael Jackson has normally gotten here between 8:00 and 8:10, maybe 8:15 at latest, every morning, except for when we hasn't shown in. About 8:15 when he hadn't shown, we all kind of started to realize what was going on here. At 8:35 -- court starts at 8:30 every day -- at 8:35 his lawyer, Tom Mesereau, got a call, presumably from Jackson or someone in his camp, telling him that Mr. Jackson had been taken to Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara for an unknown back problem, apparently.
The judge, none-too-happy about that, issued a bench warrant which he held for one hour, forfeited Mr. Jackson's bail, and basically said if he doesn't get here within an hour, he will be put into custody. If that's done, he will certainly never miss a court day again -- Daryn.
KAGAN: No, he won't. And so, Jeff, bring you back in and talk about bench warrants, how they work, and forfeiting bail. We're talking a lot of money here.
TOOBIN: For the bail, I think it's $3 or $5 million. It's an enormous amount of money.
KAGAN: $3 million?
TOOBIN: $3 million, yes. And usually it's not -- it's a promise to pay that much, and that is what Jackson would have to pay if bail is forfeited. You know, again, these sorts of controversies do happen fairly frequently in the court system, and the actual forfeiting of bail, when the defendant is in a location where everyone knows where he is, it's rare.
However, there is a chance that Judge Melville will say, look, I'm not willing to take the chance again of you not showing up, so I'm going to incarcerate you. Tom Mesereau will have a heck of an argument on his hands because the difference between being out on bail and being in custody is so vast that it's difficult even to describe. Especially when you're Michael Jackson, who lives in this palace at Neverland, this 2800 acre ranch versus being in the lockup in Santa Maria. I mean, the difference is just enormous.
KAGAN: So, when the judge issues his bench warrant and says I'm holding it for an hour, basically, it's a count to three. I'm giving you to three to get up here.
TOOBIN: Exactly. If Jackson shows up within the hour, the issue will essentially go away.
KAGAN: Until the next time he might not show up.
TOOBIN: Well, that's just it. I mean, I think it literally, Michael Jackson is at strike two here. I think strike three, you know, the judge will simply not even hear any argument. But the situation is, when you have someone out on bail, and you realize there is some problem coming to court, you are duty bound to give the judge some notice before 8:35 at an 8:30 proceeding to say, look, there's a problem, the defendant has gone on to the hospital. The thing that judges hate is to be surprised at the last minute like that, and Judge Melville obviously is registering his displeasure in very clear terms.
KAGAN: Yes, he clearly is not pleased.
I'm pleased to have both of you, though, with us,and I want to bring Miguel back in, Miguel, to remind us exactly where we are at this point in the trial and why today was such a big day for testimony.
MARQUEZ: The only day that might be bigger in this trial is if Michael Jackson himself testifies. This was huge. This was the day that his accuser, the one who has started all this, and brought all these charges, and created all of this for this international pop star, this 15-year-old kid going to tell all about what he says Michael Jackson did to him.
The pressure must be enormous, and watching Jackson over the last several days, coming and going from court, you do notice a little slowness to his step. It was clear he was not very happy to be here. And this is going to make things even more difficult for him.
I understand, though, that through other people here that the Cottage -- the particular Cottage Hospital he was taken to is in Santa Ynez Valley which is closer than Santa Barbara -- these Cottage Hospitals all over the central coast here. Somewhat closer, but with about 40 minutes to go before the deadline, it's not clear, unless he would be on the road right now, whether or not he will make it here by the deadline -- Daryn.
KAGAN: So he's not at Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara, he is closer to his home, which would be a little closer to the courthouse as well.
MARQUEZ: Exactly. Jackson's Neverland Ranch is between Santa Barbara and Santa Maria, but it's still about a 40 minute drive from there, so it's going to be difficult for him to make it even from Santa Ynez, which is right near his Neverland Ranch, to be here by 9:30 -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right, back to Jeffrey Toobin, I think Miguel brings up an interesting point, the only day that would be bigger if it does happen Michael Jackson would take the stand in his opening defense. In his opening statement, didn't Thomas Mesereau seem to suggest that that might just happen? TOOBIN: He sure did, and I remember sitting there in the courtroom taking notes, thinking whoa, that is an unusual promise for a defense lawyer to make. Twice in his opening statement, Thomas Mesereau said Michael Jackson will tell you.
Now, lots of things happen over the course of a trial, and I doubt the jurors are going to sit there in deliberation months from now, saying I wonder what Mesereau meant in his opening statement. We're parsing it more closely than they undoubtedly are, but it is a very clear statement that...
KAGAN: But, he didn't Michael Jackson is going to take the stand. When he says, Michael Jackson will tell you, he could say, well, as you heard in the documentary that we played, or as we heard in that videotape.
TOOBIN: He did, but I'm also somewhat familiar with Mesereau's background, and he is a great believer in abuse cases, in cases where an adult is accused of such awful conduct with relation to a child. It's very important for the defendant, notwithstanding the Fifth Amendment to get on that jury stand, get on that witness stand, look the jury in the eye, and say I did not do this.
He believes that he -- that it's important for Jackson to take the stand, whether he ultimately will, I don't know.
KAGAN: For our viewers who are just joining us, or staying with us. Michael Jackson, once again, has failed to show up at courthouse today, claiming he has back problems. He has gone to a local hospital, Cottage Hospital, not too far away from his in the Santa Ynez Valley. The judge in this case not pleased. He has given Michael Jackson an hour, well, at this point now about, 45 minutes to get to the courthouse so testimony can continue today. And if not, he says he will revoke bail and take Michael Jackson into custody.
Jeff, bringing you back in here, again, once again, this is such a big, important day, because the 15-year-old accuser is in the middle of his testimony. Today was supposed to be the day that he talked about exactly what he says Michael Jackson did to him. What does this, beside credibility -- what would you be looking for here from today's testimony?
TOOBIN: Daryn, I'll answer that in one second. If I could just point out to our viewers, we are watching this story unfold in realtime. Thomas Mesereau is the gray-haired fellow there on the screen. You can just see him suffering.
KAGAN: He's on his cell phone. We don't know what he's talking to. We don't know what he's saying. You can only imagine, though, it has to do with get my client here.
TOOBIN: I've been watching him as we've been talking, and there's some nervous laughter, there's some smiles, but you know, he has been working that cell phone, and can you just almost see him squeezing it tighter than any cell phone is supposed to be squeezed. This is very embarrassing for Mesereau. He is a lawyer with an impeccable reputation. You know, when you have a client out on bail, you are essentially as the lawyer vouching for the fact that he will appear everyday in court. And Mesereau, you can just tell is suffering through this -- what is certainly a very long hour for him.
KAGAN: And because he's had so many high-profile clients, you know that he is media savvy. He's got to know when he steps outside the courthouse and making the calls on the cell phone that the cameras are pointed on him. Do cell phones not work inside the courthouse? Are you not allowed to use them?
TOOBIN: You're not allowed to use them is the rule. In fact, when you walk into the courtroom, there's a very -- you have to go through a metal detector, and your cell phone will set it off. And there's a big stack of cell phones waiting for people to grab them when they come out on breaks, and I believe that applies to the lawyers, too.
So I imagine Mesereau would much prefer be going through this agony in private rather than in public. But it is -- you can see that he is really trying hard to get Michael Jackson back in here, or a good explanation before this hour expires.
KAGAN: Let's get back to talking about this 15-year-old accuser and what he needs to do in order to make the case for the prosecution.
TOOBIN: Well, what was interesting, even in reading the transcript of his first day on the stand, he is a much more fluent speaker, a much more mature, articulate person than either his brother or his sister. And one of the things that he did, I think, that was very powerful is talking about his illness. This is a jury that heard in Tom Sneddon's opening statement one fact that stuck with me, which I'm sure has stayed with the jurors, which was this boy had a 16-pound tumor removed from his stomach. Frankly, I've never even heard of a tumor that big. And I think the jury...
KAGAN: Jeff, hold that thought, because we have news coming out of Santa Maria.
Miguel, jump in with what you have.
Hold on, we need to work on getting Miguel's microphone to work. All right, we'll work on that. We have the wrong microphone.
While we work on that, Jeff, let's bring you back and your point about what you heard from opening statements about this young accuser?
TOOBIN: Not a sense, it is undisputed that this child was on the verge of death. His parents were told to prepare for his funeral. This was a very serious cancer. He lost his spleen. He lost a kidney, and his cancer is in remission now.
But take that as background to his testimony. The jury is obviously at some level going to be on this kid's side. So I think that's something very powerful that the prosecution has going for him, going for it, as he begins to tell his story.
KAGAN: OK, hold on with that thought, because now we have the audio fixed. Miguel, what do you have now from Santa Maria, an update.
TOOBIN: Well, I can tell you that Mr. Jackson's attorney, like he does every morning, is out here in front of the courthouse. He's on the cell phone. We also understand Mr. Jackson is, in fact, on his way here to the courthouse. It's now 8:56 a.m. Pacific Time. He has exactly 34 minutes to get here, otherwise, he will be remanded into custody and brought to jail -- from jail to the courthouse every day. We understand he's on his way. It's now -- it's getting more dramatic. It's now a race against the clock for Mr. Jackson to get here, otherwise he will forfeit his bail and will be remanded in custody.
It is a very good sign, though, that Mr. Mesereau, his lawyer, is standing right outside here. He typically does that and greets the Jackson family, Mr. Jackson and his family as they roll up to the courthouse in Santa Maria -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right, so 34 minutes, the clock is ticking. Jeff Toobin, once again, talking about this judge in this case. No- nonsense, laying down the law, saying Michael Jackson, you get the message, you get here to the courthouse?
TOOBIN: Absolutely. And remember, this is a judge who moved jury selection in this case far faster than anyone in the case expected, including the lawyers. This jury selection took only two weeks. Remember, it was delayed once because Tom Mesereau's sister died, the other because of Jackson's flu-like symptoms. The trial itself, the court proceedings, have gone very expeditiously.
So this kind of thing, a delay of this type, especially when at Jackson's arraignment, Michael Jackson didn't show up on time, this is exactly the kind of thing designed to irritate the judge, or at least will have the effect of irritating the judge. So he is not going to mess around in terms of forfeiting the bail or throwing Michael Jackson in jail. So we really for a race against the clock at the moment.
KAGAN: And for people not familiar with California, who think that all of California is like Hollywood and every place has celebrities, Santa Maria could not be more against that type of community. Santa Maria is not used to have be a lot of celebrity trials. It's basically the center of the agricultural center of California.
TOOBIN: Right, it's a city of 85,000 people, only one of whom I believe would count as a celebrity, and that's Michael Jackson. He doesn't live in the city; Neverland is on the outskirts.
Also one of the thing I learned during several very long drives from Los Angeles to Santa Maria, Santa Barbara, as you pointed out earlier, Daryn, is an enormous county. The city of Santa Barbara is about an hour and 15 minutes away from Santa Maria. So just because you're in the county doesn't mean you can just sort of pop into court. It's a big place, long distances, and you know, Jackson may well miss the deadline that the judge sat down for him.
KAGAN: And next time you fly in, you need to fly into Santa Barbara Airport and drive in from there.
TOOBIN: Not that my travel plans are all that fascinating. I actually flew into Santa Maria last time, and it's a lot better than driving.
KAGAN: Even better. Jeff, thanks for your help on this case today.
Breaking news out of Santa Maria. Once again, Michael Jackson failing to show up in court on a day of key testimony from his 15- year-old accuser the day that the accuser is supposed to describe in much detail what he says Michael Jackson did to him.
He has about 30 minutes to get to the courthouse, otherwise his bail is revoked.
Our coverage is going to continue, thanks to Jeff, thanks to Miguel Marquez. I'm sure you're both going to stick around.
Right now, though, I'm going to hand it over to Judy Woodruff.
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Aired March 10, 2005 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Daryn Kagan. Let's take a look what's happening now in the news. Shiite and Kurdish negotiators announced just a short while ago they have reached a deal, one that will allow the newly elected Iraqi National Assembly to name a government when it meets next week. Conservative Shiite Ibrahim al Jaafari is widely seen as the favorite for prime minister. The Kurds are expected to get the more ceremonial presidential post.
Meanwhile, also in Iraq, though, a suicide bomber blew himself up during a funeral procession in the Iraqi city of Mosul just a short while ago. Officials telling CNN at least 26 people have been killed and 27 others wounded.
President Bush is talking up Social Security today. He has scheduled an event taking place soon in Louisville, Kentucky, and this afternoon he travels to Montgomery, Alabama. The president spends the night in Memphis, Tennessee for another Social Security event tomorrow.
And filing for personal bankruptcy could get a lot harder under a bill the Senate is expected to vote on today. The bill aims to force people who are able to repay their debts to meet those obligations. The House will likely take up the measure after Easter.
And in Madrid, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan just a short time ago delivering the keynote address at a global anti-terrorism conference. As he noted one of the biggest challenges has been coming up with a workable definition of terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: I regret that international human rights experts, including those of the U.N. system, are unanimous in finding that many measures where states are currently adopting to counter terrorism infringe on human rights and fundamental freedoms. Human rights law makes ample provision for counterterrorist action, even in the most exceptional circumstances, but compromising human rights cannot serve the struggle against terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Tomorrow marks the first anniversary of the Madrid commuter train attack, which killed 191 people.
To Capitol Hill now, where Congress is taking a look at steroids in sports today. Two House subcommittees are questioning several people across the sports spectrum from the high school level all the way the Major Leagues. But the real fireworks might come next week. That's when another House committee has issued subpoenas for 11 big name baseball stars to testify next Thursday. The league, though, says it is fighting those subpoenas in court if necessary.
Here now CNN's congressional correspondent, Ed Henry.
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ED HENRY, CONGRESSIONAL CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire forged a bond during the celebrated summer of '98 when they each surpassed the previous record for home runs in a season. Now, they're linked again, both slapped with subpoenas from a congressional committee probing whether their home run chase was fueled by more than just Mother Nature.
Also on the hit list, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Curt Schilling, Frank Thomas and Jose Canseco. Canseco wants to testify, perhaps so he can discuss his explosive new book that claims he used steroids with McGwire and others. Schilling has spoken out against steroids and Thomas has said this is a problem baseball must face.
FRANK THOMAS, CHICAGO WHITE SOCKS: I told people before, I've got nothing to hide. So if they subpoena us, they subpoena us. And I'll stick by my word. It's an honor to go there.
HENRY: But Major League Baseball officials are swinging back at Congress, insisting they'll fight the subpoenas because the committee does not have legal jurisdiction. Baseball officials also say forcing players like Giambi to testify on Capitol Hill next Thursday could taint the federal judge probe of BALCO Laboratories, which allegedly provided steroids to various athletes. Giambi reportedly told the grand jury he used steroids, though publicly he's been vague about the case that's dominated the early days of spring training.
JASON GIAMBI, NEW YORK YANKEES: I know there's been a lot of distractions, you know, over the past year and I wanted to apologize for all those, you know, distractions, from the bottom of my heart. You know, I take full responsibility for it and I'm sorry.
HENRY: In a letter to the Congressional panel, Major League Baseball's lawyer lashed out at separate subpoena seeking the results of player drug tests. He wrote: "The right to privacy outweighs any asserted interest in the health problems stemming from the use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs."
An aide to House Government Reform Chairman Tom Davis, who issued the subpoenas, fired back the panel does have legal authority, saying it's sad that they've resorted to legalese, and inaccurate legalese at that.
And despite baseball's push to block testimony, there are indications players like Sosa may come forward on their own. The stakes have been raised because a failure to testify could result in charges of contempt of Congress. An agent for Sosa told CNN that after respectfully declining the panel's initial invitation, the slugger now will "take a second look and make the right choice."
Ed Henry, CNN, Washington.
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KAGAN: And here's a look at what's on our legal docket for today. Jurors in the trial of former WorldCom chief Bernie Ebbers return for a fifth day of deliberations. Yesterday the judge told them they could convict Ebbers without the supplemental charges included in the indictment. Ebbers is being tried on charges of orchestrating the massive accounting scheme that led to WorldCom's bankruptcy.
There is still no verdict in the trial of former "Baretta" star Robert Blake. Jurors resume deliberations later this morning. They've asked for testimony to review from three people before wrapping up yesterday. Blake is accused of killing his wife Bonny Lee Bakley in 2001.
Michael Jackson's accuser returns to the witness stand this hour. Jurors seemed very attentive as the boy described the first time he met the pop star, his time at Neverland Ranch and also, his cancer treatment. Today, though, prosecutors are likely to delve into the nitty-gritty of alleged molestation.
Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin keeping a close watch on the trial. He has been in the courtroom, but joins us from New York City this morning. Jeffrey, good morning.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Daryn.
KAGAN: How much does the credibility of this young man, this 15- year-old, how much does the case rely on how he does on that stand?
TOOBIN: Close to 100 percent, Daryn. I think this is the make- or-break witness for the prosecution. The brother of the accuser, the sister of the accuser, turned out to be pretty weak witnesses. The corroboration was not very strong. However, if the jury believes the accuser himself, everything else is irrelevant and Michael Jackson is going to be convicted.
KAGAN: Want to talk about the brother a little bit. He had lurid details of what he said took place during their visit to Neverland. But Thomas Mesereau, the defense attorney, also got him on the witness stand to admit he has lied under oath before. Did that basically throw out the testimony?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, you never know, because jurors often are sympathetic to children who are witnesses, because they say, well, kids get confused, they don't know -- they don't have the same sort of sense of chronology that adults might. So it is possible that that cross-examination wasn't as effective with the jury as we thought.
However, you know, as these things go, it was a very effective cross-examination where he established that -- the younger brother had told different stories, and admitted lying in certain circumstances. And Ted Rowlands, our colleague out there, told me yesterday that jurors were actually laughing at the younger brother at one point. So that can't be good for the prosecution.
KAGAN: This is about the time of day when we see the live pictures from Santa Maria of Michael Jackson arrived at the courthouse. We're getting word now from our CNN sources at the courthouse, he has not arrived yet. So we're working on finding out why. He's been very good at being on time since that first appearance over a year ago when he was very, late. I want to ask you, though, Jeff, about -- because you were in the courtroom, was it earlier this week or last week?
TOOBIN: Last week.
KAGAN: Last week during jury selection. Michael Jackson in the courtroom at that time when you there were?
TOOBIN: He was, sure. It was actually opening statements in the first couple witnesses.
KAGAN: And what was his presence like in that courtroom, and what effect do you think it had?
TOOBIN: He's a tiny person, Daryn. It's really very surprising to see him in person. He's actually about 5'10. He's not short by any means, but he is so slight and small. He is a riveting person to look at. First of all, as everyone knows, he's just so odd looking with his, you know, these costumes he wears. I wouldn't even call it clothes. And his skin is this unearthly pallor of kind of gray, and his nose is all, you know, messed up, as we know.
However, he moves like the dancer that he is. He's a very graceful person, and it's just hypnotizing to look at him. And I think the jurors were actually almost forcing themselves not to look at him because you couldn't -- they didn't want to seem like they were gaping. But I'm sure by the end of the trial, they will have spent a lot of time studying him and his reactions to the testimony.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the two lead attorneys in this case. First the prosecutor, Tom Sneddon. He was the D.A. in Santa Barbara County back when I worked in Santa Barbara and that was quite a few years ago. Quite a few years ago.
TOOBIN: Well, you're -- you know, barely out of your 20s, Daryn so it couldn't be that long. But the -- you know, he has been there a long time, and he is the boss of the office, not used to trying a lot of cases. He doesn't try as many cases as a line assistant does. And that's shown, frankly. His opening statement was pretty weak. It was disorganized. He has not been a terrific courtroom presence. So, you know, I think the early advantage in terms of the lawyering very much goes to the defense.
KAGAN: And let's talk about Tom Meserau. What kind of presence does he have in that courtroom?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think he's really done an excellent job. First of all, he's a very striking man. He's -- you know, he's got that big mane of gray hair. He used to be a football player when he went to Harvard. So he's a -- you know, he's still got that big, you know, bearing. I see him there on the screen.
KAGAN: Yes, and let's talk about the live pictures, because here's Tom Mesereau outside the courthouse, at a time you expect him to be inside the courthouse, on the cell phone. Perhaps he is trying to get information exactly where his client is at this time.
TOOBIN: He's got the expression on his face, of -- he's making a where-the-heck-are-you phone call. But you know, I certainly don't know. It's -- you know, Mike -- remember, one week of..
KAGAN: OK, Jeff, hold on one second, because our Miguel Marquez is there in Santa Maria. So, Jeff, you stand by.
Let's go to Miguel. What do you know about the whereabouts, or lack of whereabouts of Michael Jackson, Miguel?
MARQUEZ: We understand, Tom Mesereau, Jr., his attorney, says he's been taken to Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara for an unknown back problem, apparently.
Mr. Jackson -- a bench warrant has been issued and held, though, for one hour. Apparently, he has one hour to get here. His bail has been forfeited, but he does have an hour to get here. Otherwise, he will be arrested and remanded into custody. Mr. Mesereau, Mr. Jackson's attorney, said he has this a back problem, but will make every effort to be here in one hour.
Here's the problem, though: Cottage Hospital is in Santa Barbara, California, which is about an hour south of here. It is now 8:40 a.m. Pacific Time. If he's not here by 9:30 Pacific Time, he's in trouble. It's about an hour's drive. I don't see how he makes it.
KAGAN: I was going to talk about the geography because I used to live in Santa Barbara. When you said that, my first thought is, you can't get from Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara up to Santa Maria. I don't think people really appreciate the geography of just how large Santa Barbara is, and how it is from the city of Santa Barbara -- Santa Ynez (ah), the valley where Michael Jackson's ranch is -- and then to Santa Maria. These are very far apart places.
MARQUEZ: They are very far apart places and this would be the second time Mr. Jackson has done this, and this judge is not to be trifled with on these matters. He wants things moving along at his pace, which is quickly, and Mr. Jackson, late on his first day in court, he was admonished by the judge, he got sick a second time, the judge cut him slack. This time the judge seem to be cutting no slack whatsoever. His bail forfeited and bail warrant issued but held for at least one -- for one hour -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And what is the court schedule here, Miguel? Is there court scheduled for tomorrow at this point? Because, if not, then the accuser is going to have to wait until Monday to continue testimony. MARQUEZ: The court schedule is in motions tomorrow. So there would be no jury, there'd be no testimony tomorrow. It would be a day of motions, which are going to be, probably some, a fairly heavy day of motions, and then Monday, the accuser would be probably -- we'd expect that the accuser would be back up on the stand during cross- examination, but now if Mr. Jackson doesn't show today, he'll be back on the stand for direct examination by the prosecution.
KAGAN: All right.
Jeff Toobin, let's bring you back in here. Miguel was making mention of the judge in this case. This has been a no-nonsense judge, clearly not pleased by the actions of today.
TOOBIN: Yes. You know, Daryn, I was in the courtroom on the day of his arraignment when he was late. That was also the day at the end of the proceedings when he danced on top of the car and was a complete circus. Judge Melville was furious about him being late. He says you've gotten off to a bad start with me Mr. Jackson. It was a memorable outburst by the judge. Obviously, that is still sticking in the judge's craw, and he warned Michael Jackson in the course of these proceedings, don't be late again. Here he's been late again.
This is the kind of thing that works itself out. But Tom Mesereau better stay on the cell phone and have either Michael Jackson in court or some awfully good medical excuse for why he's not there.
KAGAN: Can this testimony go on without him not in the courtroom?
TOOBIN: Basically, no. There are circumstances where the defendant can waive, but he has to be there to waive it. So , almost certainly, the day's testimony will be put off and I think, you know, the jury is not supposed to be following this in the press, not supposed to be reading it, but this kind of delay at such a critical moment in the trial will strike some people as -- as gamesmanship on Jackson's part. And you know, it's another reason why the judge will be especially irritated that this day of all days is the day he doesn't come to court.
KAGAN: If you're going to cut Michael Jackson a break, he really has back problem, he really should be in the hospital in Santa Barbara. Other end of the spectrum, cynicism: it's a tactic. What about the impact of what you're doing to this 15-year-old boy, as you were just explaining, the credibility, his credibility of his testimony is what this case hinges on for the prosecution. What you do for this kid, who is about to talk about these molestations, accusations, and make him wait, all the way until Monday.
TOOBIN: You know, it is dirty pool, but it's not likely to be very effective. The direct and cross-examination would certainly have lasted into next week under all circumstance so it's not like this young boy or young man was going to get the weekend off in any case, so it's not -- the gamesmanship couldn't be that effective. But, you know, it is a sleazy thing, if it's under Jackson's control. I think in fairness to him, we have to find out what the medical evidence is, whether this is a legitimate medical problem. Remember, what delayed jury selection was what was called flu-like syndromes, flu-like symptoms, which in English to me sounds like a cold. It wasn't exactly a major medical problem. Again, these back problems, we'll see if there's a legitimate explanation.
KAGAN: OK, you stay with us, Jeff. Want to bring Miguel Marquez back in here, live, from Santa Maria, about what we know, about what time Michael Jackson was supposed to be in court, and the actions the judge has now taken.
MARQUEZ: Michael Jackson has normally gotten here between 8:00 and 8:10, maybe 8:15 at latest, every morning, except for when we hasn't shown in. About 8:15 when he hadn't shown, we all kind of started to realize what was going on here. At 8:35 -- court starts at 8:30 every day -- at 8:35 his lawyer, Tom Mesereau, got a call, presumably from Jackson or someone in his camp, telling him that Mr. Jackson had been taken to Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara for an unknown back problem, apparently.
The judge, none-too-happy about that, issued a bench warrant which he held for one hour, forfeited Mr. Jackson's bail, and basically said if he doesn't get here within an hour, he will be put into custody. If that's done, he will certainly never miss a court day again -- Daryn.
KAGAN: No, he won't. And so, Jeff, bring you back in and talk about bench warrants, how they work, and forfeiting bail. We're talking a lot of money here.
TOOBIN: For the bail, I think it's $3 or $5 million. It's an enormous amount of money.
KAGAN: $3 million?
TOOBIN: $3 million, yes. And usually it's not -- it's a promise to pay that much, and that is what Jackson would have to pay if bail is forfeited. You know, again, these sorts of controversies do happen fairly frequently in the court system, and the actual forfeiting of bail, when the defendant is in a location where everyone knows where he is, it's rare.
However, there is a chance that Judge Melville will say, look, I'm not willing to take the chance again of you not showing up, so I'm going to incarcerate you. Tom Mesereau will have a heck of an argument on his hands because the difference between being out on bail and being in custody is so vast that it's difficult even to describe. Especially when you're Michael Jackson, who lives in this palace at Neverland, this 2800 acre ranch versus being in the lockup in Santa Maria. I mean, the difference is just enormous.
KAGAN: So, when the judge issues his bench warrant and says I'm holding it for an hour, basically, it's a count to three. I'm giving you to three to get up here.
TOOBIN: Exactly. If Jackson shows up within the hour, the issue will essentially go away.
KAGAN: Until the next time he might not show up.
TOOBIN: Well, that's just it. I mean, I think it literally, Michael Jackson is at strike two here. I think strike three, you know, the judge will simply not even hear any argument. But the situation is, when you have someone out on bail, and you realize there is some problem coming to court, you are duty bound to give the judge some notice before 8:35 at an 8:30 proceeding to say, look, there's a problem, the defendant has gone on to the hospital. The thing that judges hate is to be surprised at the last minute like that, and Judge Melville obviously is registering his displeasure in very clear terms.
KAGAN: Yes, he clearly is not pleased.
I'm pleased to have both of you, though, with us,and I want to bring Miguel back in, Miguel, to remind us exactly where we are at this point in the trial and why today was such a big day for testimony.
MARQUEZ: The only day that might be bigger in this trial is if Michael Jackson himself testifies. This was huge. This was the day that his accuser, the one who has started all this, and brought all these charges, and created all of this for this international pop star, this 15-year-old kid going to tell all about what he says Michael Jackson did to him.
The pressure must be enormous, and watching Jackson over the last several days, coming and going from court, you do notice a little slowness to his step. It was clear he was not very happy to be here. And this is going to make things even more difficult for him.
I understand, though, that through other people here that the Cottage -- the particular Cottage Hospital he was taken to is in Santa Ynez Valley which is closer than Santa Barbara -- these Cottage Hospitals all over the central coast here. Somewhat closer, but with about 40 minutes to go before the deadline, it's not clear, unless he would be on the road right now, whether or not he will make it here by the deadline -- Daryn.
KAGAN: So he's not at Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara, he is closer to his home, which would be a little closer to the courthouse as well.
MARQUEZ: Exactly. Jackson's Neverland Ranch is between Santa Barbara and Santa Maria, but it's still about a 40 minute drive from there, so it's going to be difficult for him to make it even from Santa Ynez, which is right near his Neverland Ranch, to be here by 9:30 -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right, back to Jeffrey Toobin, I think Miguel brings up an interesting point, the only day that would be bigger if it does happen Michael Jackson would take the stand in his opening defense. In his opening statement, didn't Thomas Mesereau seem to suggest that that might just happen? TOOBIN: He sure did, and I remember sitting there in the courtroom taking notes, thinking whoa, that is an unusual promise for a defense lawyer to make. Twice in his opening statement, Thomas Mesereau said Michael Jackson will tell you.
Now, lots of things happen over the course of a trial, and I doubt the jurors are going to sit there in deliberation months from now, saying I wonder what Mesereau meant in his opening statement. We're parsing it more closely than they undoubtedly are, but it is a very clear statement that...
KAGAN: But, he didn't Michael Jackson is going to take the stand. When he says, Michael Jackson will tell you, he could say, well, as you heard in the documentary that we played, or as we heard in that videotape.
TOOBIN: He did, but I'm also somewhat familiar with Mesereau's background, and he is a great believer in abuse cases, in cases where an adult is accused of such awful conduct with relation to a child. It's very important for the defendant, notwithstanding the Fifth Amendment to get on that jury stand, get on that witness stand, look the jury in the eye, and say I did not do this.
He believes that he -- that it's important for Jackson to take the stand, whether he ultimately will, I don't know.
KAGAN: For our viewers who are just joining us, or staying with us. Michael Jackson, once again, has failed to show up at courthouse today, claiming he has back problems. He has gone to a local hospital, Cottage Hospital, not too far away from his in the Santa Ynez Valley. The judge in this case not pleased. He has given Michael Jackson an hour, well, at this point now about, 45 minutes to get to the courthouse so testimony can continue today. And if not, he says he will revoke bail and take Michael Jackson into custody.
Jeff, bringing you back in here, again, once again, this is such a big, important day, because the 15-year-old accuser is in the middle of his testimony. Today was supposed to be the day that he talked about exactly what he says Michael Jackson did to him. What does this, beside credibility -- what would you be looking for here from today's testimony?
TOOBIN: Daryn, I'll answer that in one second. If I could just point out to our viewers, we are watching this story unfold in realtime. Thomas Mesereau is the gray-haired fellow there on the screen. You can just see him suffering.
KAGAN: He's on his cell phone. We don't know what he's talking to. We don't know what he's saying. You can only imagine, though, it has to do with get my client here.
TOOBIN: I've been watching him as we've been talking, and there's some nervous laughter, there's some smiles, but you know, he has been working that cell phone, and can you just almost see him squeezing it tighter than any cell phone is supposed to be squeezed. This is very embarrassing for Mesereau. He is a lawyer with an impeccable reputation. You know, when you have a client out on bail, you are essentially as the lawyer vouching for the fact that he will appear everyday in court. And Mesereau, you can just tell is suffering through this -- what is certainly a very long hour for him.
KAGAN: And because he's had so many high-profile clients, you know that he is media savvy. He's got to know when he steps outside the courthouse and making the calls on the cell phone that the cameras are pointed on him. Do cell phones not work inside the courthouse? Are you not allowed to use them?
TOOBIN: You're not allowed to use them is the rule. In fact, when you walk into the courtroom, there's a very -- you have to go through a metal detector, and your cell phone will set it off. And there's a big stack of cell phones waiting for people to grab them when they come out on breaks, and I believe that applies to the lawyers, too.
So I imagine Mesereau would much prefer be going through this agony in private rather than in public. But it is -- you can see that he is really trying hard to get Michael Jackson back in here, or a good explanation before this hour expires.
KAGAN: Let's get back to talking about this 15-year-old accuser and what he needs to do in order to make the case for the prosecution.
TOOBIN: Well, what was interesting, even in reading the transcript of his first day on the stand, he is a much more fluent speaker, a much more mature, articulate person than either his brother or his sister. And one of the things that he did, I think, that was very powerful is talking about his illness. This is a jury that heard in Tom Sneddon's opening statement one fact that stuck with me, which I'm sure has stayed with the jurors, which was this boy had a 16-pound tumor removed from his stomach. Frankly, I've never even heard of a tumor that big. And I think the jury...
KAGAN: Jeff, hold that thought, because we have news coming out of Santa Maria.
Miguel, jump in with what you have.
Hold on, we need to work on getting Miguel's microphone to work. All right, we'll work on that. We have the wrong microphone.
While we work on that, Jeff, let's bring you back and your point about what you heard from opening statements about this young accuser?
TOOBIN: Not a sense, it is undisputed that this child was on the verge of death. His parents were told to prepare for his funeral. This was a very serious cancer. He lost his spleen. He lost a kidney, and his cancer is in remission now.
But take that as background to his testimony. The jury is obviously at some level going to be on this kid's side. So I think that's something very powerful that the prosecution has going for him, going for it, as he begins to tell his story.
KAGAN: OK, hold on with that thought, because now we have the audio fixed. Miguel, what do you have now from Santa Maria, an update.
TOOBIN: Well, I can tell you that Mr. Jackson's attorney, like he does every morning, is out here in front of the courthouse. He's on the cell phone. We also understand Mr. Jackson is, in fact, on his way here to the courthouse. It's now 8:56 a.m. Pacific Time. He has exactly 34 minutes to get here, otherwise, he will be remanded into custody and brought to jail -- from jail to the courthouse every day. We understand he's on his way. It's now -- it's getting more dramatic. It's now a race against the clock for Mr. Jackson to get here, otherwise he will forfeit his bail and will be remanded in custody.
It is a very good sign, though, that Mr. Mesereau, his lawyer, is standing right outside here. He typically does that and greets the Jackson family, Mr. Jackson and his family as they roll up to the courthouse in Santa Maria -- Daryn.
KAGAN: All right, so 34 minutes, the clock is ticking. Jeff Toobin, once again, talking about this judge in this case. No- nonsense, laying down the law, saying Michael Jackson, you get the message, you get here to the courthouse?
TOOBIN: Absolutely. And remember, this is a judge who moved jury selection in this case far faster than anyone in the case expected, including the lawyers. This jury selection took only two weeks. Remember, it was delayed once because Tom Mesereau's sister died, the other because of Jackson's flu-like symptoms. The trial itself, the court proceedings, have gone very expeditiously.
So this kind of thing, a delay of this type, especially when at Jackson's arraignment, Michael Jackson didn't show up on time, this is exactly the kind of thing designed to irritate the judge, or at least will have the effect of irritating the judge. So he is not going to mess around in terms of forfeiting the bail or throwing Michael Jackson in jail. So we really for a race against the clock at the moment.
KAGAN: And for people not familiar with California, who think that all of California is like Hollywood and every place has celebrities, Santa Maria could not be more against that type of community. Santa Maria is not used to have be a lot of celebrity trials. It's basically the center of the agricultural center of California.
TOOBIN: Right, it's a city of 85,000 people, only one of whom I believe would count as a celebrity, and that's Michael Jackson. He doesn't live in the city; Neverland is on the outskirts.
Also one of the thing I learned during several very long drives from Los Angeles to Santa Maria, Santa Barbara, as you pointed out earlier, Daryn, is an enormous county. The city of Santa Barbara is about an hour and 15 minutes away from Santa Maria. So just because you're in the county doesn't mean you can just sort of pop into court. It's a big place, long distances, and you know, Jackson may well miss the deadline that the judge sat down for him.
KAGAN: And next time you fly in, you need to fly into Santa Barbara Airport and drive in from there.
TOOBIN: Not that my travel plans are all that fascinating. I actually flew into Santa Maria last time, and it's a lot better than driving.
KAGAN: Even better. Jeff, thanks for your help on this case today.
Breaking news out of Santa Maria. Once again, Michael Jackson failing to show up in court on a day of key testimony from his 15- year-old accuser the day that the accuser is supposed to describe in much detail what he says Michael Jackson did to him.
He has about 30 minutes to get to the courthouse, otherwise his bail is revoked.
Our coverage is going to continue, thanks to Jeff, thanks to Miguel Marquez. I'm sure you're both going to stick around.
Right now, though, I'm going to hand it over to Judy Woodruff.
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